Flying while deaf

[bryan chaisone]

How does one communicate with ATC when one is deaf?

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2490607090&category=31853

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"bryan chaisone" > wrote in message
om...
>
> How does one communicate with ATC when one is deaf?
>

Via light gun signals.


>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2490607090&category=31853
>

A better question might have been, "What does having been owned by a deaf
helicopter pilot have to do with the auction of a car?"

[Steve R.]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "bryan chaisone" > wrote in message
> om...
>>
>> How does one communicate with ATC when one is deaf?
>>
>
> Via light gun signals.
>
>

That's for communications with the control tower at a controlled field
airport, not ATC!

>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2490607090&category=31853
>>
>
> A better question might have been, "What does having been owned by a deaf
> helicopter pilot have to do with the auction of a car?"
>

Agreed!

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Steve R." > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> How does one communicate with ATC when one is deaf?
>>>
>>
>> Via light gun signals.
>>
>
> That's for communications with the control tower at a controlled field
> airport, not ATC!
>

It's not ATC that staffs control towers?

[Steve R.]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Steve R." > wrote in message
> ...
>>>>
>>>> How does one communicate with ATC when one is deaf?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Via light gun signals.
>>>
>>
>> That's for communications with the control tower at a controlled field
>> airport, not ATC!
>>
>
> It's not ATC that staffs control towers?

Maybe, but if the guy is 20 miles out and needing clearance to enter the
airport traffic area, he's not going to be able to "see" the signal lights
very well, is he? What if he needs to transit a Class B airspace to get to
the controlled field? If he can't hear, he can't communicate with ATC,
thus, he can't get clearance. I've got to wonder if this one isn't a scam.

Signal lights are for short range, visual communications and there's no use
for them outside the airport traffic area.

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Peter Duniho]

"Steve R." > wrote in message
...
>>>> Via light gun signals.
>>>
>>> That's for communications with the control tower at a controlled field
>>> airport, not ATC!
>>
>> It's not ATC that staffs control towers?
>
> Maybe, but if the guy is 20 miles out and needing clearance to enter the
> airport traffic area, he's not going to be able to "see" the signal lights
> very well, is he?

Are you aware of any other method by which a deaf pilot communicates with
ATC?

Seems to me that Steven's reply quite accurately described how a deaf pilot
would communicate with ATC. The fact that the deaf pilot cannot communicate
with ATC in all circumstances is irrelevant to the answer.

Yes, one might infer that it's relevant to the original question, but it's
not Steven's way to go out of his way to be helpful (no offense
Steven...that's just how your posts are) and the original question didn't
ask how deaf pilots *can't* communicate with ATC. Steven *did* answer the
question asked, and as far as I know, did so completely (that is, he left no
other method out).

If you know different, we're all ears (except the deaf pilots :) ).

Pete

[Toks Desalu]

> Maybe, but if the guy is 20 miles out and needing clearance to enter the
> airport traffic area, he's not going to be able to "see" the signal lights
> very well, is he?

I am not sure about bravo airspace due to nature of traffic. For other
controlled airspaces, deaf pilot already got his clearance. In order to
enter controlled airspace, he/she can contact tower by phone (They use
special device called TTY to communicate through phone) The deaf pilot will
be given instructions and squawk code.That's it. He/she will follow that
instructions.

What if he needs to transit a Class B airspace to get to
> the controlled field? If he can't hear, he can't communicate with ATC,
> thus, he can't get clearance.

Again, I dont think the deaf pilot can enter bravo airspace, even with a
special clearance due to nature of traffic. Besides, bravo airspaces only
cover a small percent of whole airspace system. I am pretty sure that they
can afford to make small detour if there is a conflict.

I've got to wonder if this one isn't a scam.
>
> Signal lights are for short range, visual communications and there's no
use
> for them outside the airport traffic area.

It is not a scam or anything. They fly strictly under VFR, like any other
pilots who fly without radio.


Toks Desalu
PP-ASEL
Dyin to soar!

[Steve R.]

Hi Peter & All,

Well, obviously, I missed part of the conversation. If I spoke out of turn,
I apologize. The part I did catch didn't make sense to me at the time and I
was probably taking things a bit too literally.

Toks Desalu made some good points in his reply, points I hadn't considered.
Yes, there will be areas in aviation that the hearing impaired will have
trouble with but there are still plenty of places that they are more than
capable of enjoying safely. As they rightly pointed out, there's still
plenty of places where a radio isn't even required.

Again, if I spoke out of turn on this issue, I apologize. I certainly did
not mean any offense to the hearing impaired.

Fly Safe,
Steve R.


"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
>
> Seems to me that Steven's reply quite accurately described how a deaf
> pilot would communicate with ATC. The fact that the deaf pilot cannot
> communicate with ATC in all circumstances is irrelevant to the answer.
>
> Yes, one might infer that it's relevant to the original question, but it's
> not Steven's way to go out of his way to be helpful (no offense
> Steven...that's just how your posts are) and the original question didn't
> ask how deaf pilots *can't* communicate with ATC. Steven *did* answer the
> question asked, and as far as I know, did so completely (that is, he left
> no other method out).
>
> If you know different, we're all ears (except the deaf pilots :) ).
>
> Pete
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Steve R." > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> That's for communications with the control tower at a controlled field
>>> airport, not ATC!
>>>
>>
>> It's not ATC that staffs control towers?
>>
>
> Maybe,

Maybe it's not ATC that staffs control towers? Who do you think staffs
them?


>
> but if the guy is 20 miles out and needing clearance to enter the airport
> traffic area, he's not going to be able to "see" the signal lights very
> well, is he?
>

What is this airport traffic area that requires clearance to enter at 20
miles out?


>
> What if he needs to transit a Class B airspace to get to the
> controlled field?
>

Then he's almost certainly outta luck. ATC must separate all traffic in
Class B airspace and it's rather hard to do that without communications.


>
> If he can't hear, he can't communicate with ATC, thus,
> he can't get clearance. I've got to wonder if this one isn't a scam.
>

The question was, "How does one communicate with ATC when one is deaf?"
It's a simple question. One CAN use light gun signals. Can you think of
any others?

Incidentally, there was a time when most aircraft had no radios and light
gun signals were the main form of pilot/controller communications at towered
fields.


>
> Signal lights are for short range, visual communications and there's no
> use for them outside the airport traffic area.
>

That's all true. So what's your point?

Incidentally, we haven't had Airport Traffic Areas in the US for almost
eleven years now.

[Toks Desalu]

> Well, obviously, I missed part of the conversation. If I spoke out of
turn,
> I apologize. The part I did catch didn't make sense to me at the time and
I
> was probably taking things a bit too literally.

I can see where you going with this. You probably took this a bit too
literally. That bring us back to the previous question. "What does having
been owned by a deaf helicopter have to do with the auction of a car?" I
don't know. Maybe, some people think that car have a sentimental value.
Maybe, the seller is trying to make a profit by using that article. I don't
know what the seller's motive behind this. Either way, I think his
advertising is plainly stupid. But, the seller might get lucky.

Toks Desalu
PP-ASEL
Dyin' to Soar!

[Toks Desalu]

> Well, obviously, I missed part of the conversation. If I spoke out of
turn,
> I apologize. The part I did catch didn't make sense to me at the time and
I
> was probably taking things a bit too literally.

I can see where you going with this. You probably took this a bit too
literally. That bring us back to the previous question. "What does having
been owned by a deaf helicopter have to do with the auction of a car?" I
don't know. Maybe, some people think that car have a sentimental value.
Maybe, the seller is trying to make a profit by using that article. I don't
know what the seller's motive behind this. Either way, I think his
advertising is plainly stupid. But, the seller might get lucky.

Toks Desalu
PP-ASEL
Dyin' to Soar!

[Brien K. Meehan]

(bryan chaisone) wrote in message >...
> How does one communicate with ATC when one is deaf?

Deaf pilots have a limitation on their license, "Not Valid for Flights
Requiring the Use of Radio".

Check these links for more info:

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/deaffaq.cfm

http://www.deafpilots.com/faq.html

[Henry Kisor]

[Henry Kisor]

Some facts about deaf pilots:

1. The first one was Cal Rodgers away back in 1911. He was the first pilot,
hearing or deaf, to transit the United States, in a Wright Model B called
the Vin Fiz.

2. At any one time, approximately 150 to 175 active pilots hold U.S.
certificates bearing the limitation "Not valid for flights requiring the use
of radio." Australia also allows deaf private pilots, subject to its more
stringent limitations on no-radio flight. All European countries forbid deaf
private pilots, though several allow them to fly ULM aircraft (Ultralight
Motorized, comparable to the U.S. Sport Pilot rating).

3. Some deaf pilots hold commercial certificates. At least one holds an
instrument rating. (He uses a cochlear implant and communicates with ATC.)

4. The NTSB has never blamed an accident on a deaf pilot's lack of hearing.

There *are* certain problems involved with being a deaf pilot. One is that
since 9/11 they have not been able to fly through an ADIZ because of their
inability to communicate with ATC. The Deaf Pilots Association has wanted
to fly in loose formation to the Bahamas and back, but it can't do this
without a hearing pilot along,

Another is that they can't transit Class B airspace, as Toks Desalu
mentioned. For instance, deaf pilots can't use the VFR routes across
O'Hare's Class B but have to go around. That's not generally a major
problem, though.

Although deaf pilots can and do use Class D and Class C airports with light
signals, often a tower will deny permission owing to heavy traffic. Some
towers refuse permission at all, even during light-traffic periods.

Some FBOs refuse to rent aircraft to deaf pilots, although doing so is a
clear violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act. (Fortunately this
doesn't happen often, and usually gentle re-education solves the problem.)

Henry

[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 19:04:09 -0400, "Toks Desalu"
> wrote:

>It is not a scam or anything. They fly strictly under VFR, like any other
>pilots who fly without radio.

Since I had to get a SODA to fly with monocular vision (left eye blind
for all practical purposes), I have to believe that a deaf pilot also
has a SODA, and that it restricts what airspace he can enter.

Be an interesting question if one visits the local FSDO.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

On 26 Sep 2004 00:54:08 -0700, (Brien K.
Meehan) wrote:

>Deaf pilots have a limitation on their license, "Not Valid for Flights
>Requiring the Use of Radio".

But wouldn't that rule out even Delta airspace?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[Jim Carter]

When a private company like Phillips Petroleum operates the control tower is
it still considered a control tower? They offer advisories but caution you
they are not controlling traffic at Bartlesville, Oklahoma. Neither are they
part of ATC, however they will open and close clearances as a courtesy.
Things may have changed because I haven't been there in a while, but there
are still privately operated towers around the country aren't there?

--
Jim Carter
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Steve R." > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>> That's for communications with the control tower at a controlled field
> >>> airport, not ATC!
> >>>
> >>
> >> It's not ATC that staffs control towers?
> >>
> >
> > Maybe,
>
> Maybe it's not ATC that staffs control towers? Who do you think staffs
> them?
>
>
> >
> > but if the guy is 20 miles out and needing clearance to enter the
airport
> > traffic area, he's not going to be able to "see" the signal lights very
> > well, is he?
> >
>
> What is this airport traffic area that requires clearance to enter at 20
> miles out?
>
>
> >
> > What if he needs to transit a Class B airspace to get to the
> > controlled field?
> >
>
> Then he's almost certainly outta luck. ATC must separate all traffic in
> Class B airspace and it's rather hard to do that without communications.
>
>
> >
> > If he can't hear, he can't communicate with ATC, thus,
> > he can't get clearance. I've got to wonder if this one isn't a scam.
> >
>
> The question was, "How does one communicate with ATC when one is deaf?"
> It's a simple question. One CAN use light gun signals. Can you think of
> any others?
>
> Incidentally, there was a time when most aircraft had no radios and light
> gun signals were the main form of pilot/controller communications at
towered
> fields.
>
>
> >
> > Signal lights are for short range, visual communications and there's no
> > use for them outside the airport traffic area.
> >
>
> That's all true. So what's your point?
>
> Incidentally, we haven't had Airport Traffic Areas in the US for almost
> eleven years now.
>
>

[Rocky]

(bryan chaisone) wrote in message >...
> How does one communicate with ATC when one is deaf?
>
> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2490607090&category=31853

Bryan
I trained a couple of pilots who were deaf and they often went into
controlled airports. It was done via flight plans in which the
destination airport was advised NO RADIO and the pilots look for light
signals on arrival downwind. My pilots would write out their flight
plan and ask someone to call FSS to file it for them (via notes and
pantomime)and to open it when they took off. Certainly they would be
unable to fly legally in Class B but even then a 7600 transponder code
would alert ATC to a potential problem.
On a recent training flight we lost electrical and for all practical
purposes were "deaf". It was good for my student as he was able to see
how to actually come back into controlled airspace, alert the tower of
a radio problem, and land/taxi back to parking. No big deal if you use
your head and all the available resources.
Ol Shy & Bashful

[bryan chaisone]

Let me clarify my question. As a rated pilot, I am aware of the use
of light signals when your radio is out. My question should have been
'Are there ways for a deaf pilot to communicate with ATC other than
using light signals?'.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

(bryan chaisone) wrote in message >...
> How does one communicate with ATC when one is deaf?
>
> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2490607090&category=31853

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> But wouldn't that rule out even Delta airspace?
>

No. One can obtain authorization to operate NORDO aircraft in Class D
airspace, that's essentially the same situation as a deaf pilot.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Rocky" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I trained a couple of pilots who were deaf and they often went into
> controlled airports. It was done via flight plans in which the
> destination airport was advised NO RADIO and the pilots look for light
> signals on arrival downwind.
>

Where was this? In the US VFR flight plans are not sent to ATC facilities.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"bryan chaisone" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Let me clarify my question. As a rated pilot, I am aware of the use
> of light signals when your radio is out. My question should have been
> 'Are there ways for a deaf pilot to communicate with ATC other than
> using light signals?'.
>

Nope.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jim Carter" > wrote in message
...
>
> When a private company like Phillips Petroleum operates the control
> tower is it still considered a control tower?
>

Yes. There are many Non Federal Control Towers and FAA Contract Towers in
the US operated by private companies. They follow the same
rules as FAA and military towers, their controllers are issued a Control
Tower Operator certificate by the FAA.


>
> They offer advisories but caution you they are not controlling traffic at
> Bartlesville, Oklahoma. Neither are they part of ATC, however they
> will open and close clearances as a courtesy. Things may have
> changed because I haven't been there in a while, but there are still
> privately operated towers around the country aren't there?
>

If they don't control traffic it's not a control tower, for that's what
control towers do. From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

TOWER- A terminal facility that uses air/ground communications, visual
signaling, and other devices to provide ATC services to aircraft operating
in the vicinity of an airport or on the movement area. Authorizes aircraft
to land or takeoff at the airport controlled by the tower or to transit the
Class D airspace area regardless of flight plan or weather conditions (IFR
or VFR). A tower may also provide approach control services (radar or
nonradar).

The link below will open to a portion of the Kansas City Sectional showing
Bartlesville. Bartlesville Municipal Airport is depicted as a nontowered
field.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I11143169

[Robert M. Gary]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message et>...
> "bryan chaisone" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > How does one communicate with ATC when one is deaf?
> >
>
> Via light gun signals.

I thought the medical exemption for deaf pilots stipulated no flight
when communication with ATC is required.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

"Steve R." > wrote in message >...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "Steve R." > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>>>
> >>>> How does one communicate with ATC when one is deaf?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Via light gun signals.
> >>>
> >>
> >> That's for communications with the control tower at a controlled field
> >> airport, not ATC!
> >>
> >
> > It's not ATC that staffs control towers?
>
> Maybe, but if the guy is 20 miles out and needing clearance to enter the
> airport traffic area, he's not going to be able to "see" the signal lights
> very well, is he? What if he needs to transit a Class B airspace to get to
> the controlled field? If he can't hear, he can't communicate with ATC,
> thus, he can't get clearance. I've got to wonder if this one isn't a scam.
>
> Signal lights are for short range, visual communications and there's no use
> for them outside the airport traffic area.

From a practical matter, how does the deaf pilot report 10 miles out
without steeping on other transmissions? Is there a device for this?

-Robert

[Andrew Gideon]

Cub Driver wrote:

> Since I had to get a SODA to fly with monocular vision (left eye blind
> for all practical purposes), I have to believe that a deaf pilot also
> has a SODA, and that it restricts what airspace he can enter.

My club has two of our aircraft at an untowered airport, which is a little
unusual around here. As a result, we entertained a deaf pilot considering
membership a number of months ago.

Actually, it was more the other way around. He spoke to us (through a sign
interpreter) about his unique experiences.

My understanding is that an instrument rating and such is an impossibility
for him, and that he is restricted - as you suggested - to airspace which
doesn't require communication.

I don't whether anyone thought to ask whether he could fly into class D
airspace given the proper light-gun signals. But given the frequency of
clubs at class D airports around here, I'd have to guess "not".

BTW, I recently spoke to another pilot that used a hearing aid. I was
surprised to hear that he cannot pass a class two physical. Apparently,
while it is permissible to require corrected vision, corrected hearing is
not permissible.

Anyone know why? Is it the electronic/powered nature of the correction?
Something else?

- Andrew

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz *AT* adelphia *DOT* net> wrote in
message ...
>>
>>But wouldn't that rule out even Delta airspace?
>>
>
> Since you need 2-way radio comms to enter class Delta, I'd say yes..
>

Well, then, the light guns in those towers would seem to have no purpose.

[Peter Duniho]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> [...]
> BTW, I recently spoke to another pilot that used a hearing aid. I was
> surprised to hear that he cannot pass a class two physical. Apparently,
> while it is permissible to require corrected vision, corrected hearing is
> not permissible.
>
> Anyone know why? Is it the electronic/powered nature of the correction?
> Something else?

I expect that's at least part of it; vision correction is passive, while
hearing "correction" is active. Another issue is probably that, while
vision can be corrected to a specific standard, AFAIK hearing cannot. All a
hearing aid can do is amplify the sound, but volume may not address the
entire scope of the hearing problem.

It's probably more like trying to get a medical when you have cataracts than
it is when you are nearsighted.

Pete

[Rocky]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message >...
> "Rocky" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > I trained a couple of pilots who were deaf and they often went into
> > controlled airports. It was done via flight plans in which the
> > destination airport was advised NO RADIO and the pilots look for light
> > signals on arrival downwind.
> >
>
> Where was this? In the US VFR flight plans are not sent to ATC facilities.

Are you now splitting hairs? I thought the whole idea of the original
post was how does a deaf pilot get along with no radio communication.
In the overall scheme of things, isn't FSS, Tower Apch/Dep control,
Center, all on the radio part of ATC? Go ahead and split hairs. What
is air traffic control if it isn't control of aircraft in the air? I'm
impressed by your posts and challenges but are they very useful?
Geeeeezzzoooooh

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Rocky" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Are you now splitting hairs?
>

I don't think so.


>
> I thought the whole idea of the original post was how does a deaf pilot
> get along with no radio communication. In the overall scheme of things,
> isn't FSS, Tower Apch/Dep control, Center, all on the radio part of
> ATC?
>

No.


>
> Go ahead and split hairs. What is air traffic control if it isn't control
> of
> aircraft in the air? I'm impressed by your posts and challenges but are
> they very useful?
>

It can also be control of aircraft on the ground, as is provided by control
towers at controlled fields. Towers, TRACONs, and Centers control aircraft
in the air, FSSs do not.


>
> Geeeeezzzoooooh
>

I'm not familiar with that term.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz *AT* adelphia *DOT* net> wrote in
message ...
>
> Can you pick up a lgiht gun signal from 5 miles? At night, yeah I
> could see that, but in the daytime??
>

I don't see why not, they are rather bright. Of course, that assumes the
signal is pointed at the aircraft, which requires the controller to have the
aircraft in sight, and the pilot is looking at the control tower.


>
> Since you have to maintain comms during all operations to, from or on
> that airport, how might a deaf pilot receive instructions while
> outbound? Not trying to start an argument, it's just this subject has
> piqued my curiosity..
>

By phoning the tower and arranging for the use of light gun signals. That
may require the assistance of another party, of course.

[Gene Seibel]

"Henry Kisor" > wrote in message >...
> Some facts about deaf pilots:
>
> 1. The first one was Cal Rodgers away back in 1911. He was the first pilot,
> hearing or deaf, to transit the United States, in a Wright Model B called
> the Vin Fiz.

For those of you who are new here and may not know about it, I highly
recommend Henry Kisor's book, "Flight of the Gin Fizz", about his
reenactment of Cal Rodgers' flight. It establishes once and for all
that in aviation fun is mandatory, but radios are optional.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[G.R. Patterson III]

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
>
> Since you need 2-way radio comms to enter class Delta, I'd say yes..

Nope -- "Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under
the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction
over the airspace concerned. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or
for an individual flight, as appropriate."

So, the deaf pilot can arrange for an exemption to the radio rule. Personally, I've
entered and departed a class-D without radios once. I wouldn't care to repeat the
experience.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.