Shorter Field Landings?

[Graham Drinkell]

I use a 25mm Confor/Dyna Foam type seat cushion, would this help? The
scenario, I suggested- would be to able to stop the a/c quickly!

[Luke Szczepaniak]

On 12/08/2014 3:42 PM, Graham Drinkell wrote:
> I use a 25mm Confor/Dyna Foam type seat cushion, would this help? The
> scenario, I suggested- would be to able to stop the a/c quickly!
>


Given your scenario, I would probably do a normal, low energy landing
and force a ground-loop at the last moment to avoid hitting the
obstacle. The foam can absorb energy but won't do anything against hard
objects. As the PIC you will have to make up your own mind ;-)

Luke

[[email protected]]

Iowa corn fields can be used to REALLY AAAshorten your rollout.

[[email protected]]

The nightmare scenario landing gear up is hitting a half-buried rock that's hidden in the grass/crop/dirt. I clobbered not one but two such rocks going into a pasture years ago in which another pilot had just landed safely. He didn't see the rocks or the damage they caused until he ran up to my cockpit.

When the wheel/tire hit the first rock, the compression struts in the landing gear failed (as designed; thank you, Gerhard Waibel!), allowing the undamaged wheel/tire to pivot back and up against the bottom of the fuselage where it jammed, keeping the fuselage well above the ground. The *second* rock a few meters later creased the fuselage but did no other damage because I had still had ground clearance. The landing gear absorbed all the shock and was easily repaired by M&H. The damage to my spine if I'd landed wheel up would have been much more severe.

I was sitting on a ridge and had ample time to pick a field and make a pattern and a textbook low-energy approach. I never saw the rocks in the grass.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 12/8/2014 3:49 PM, wrote:
> The nightmare scenario landing gear up is hitting a half-buried rock that's
> hidden in the grass/crop/dirt. I clobbered not one but two such rocks going
> into a pasture years ago in which another pilot had just landed safely. He
> didn't see the rocks or the damage they caused until he ran up to my
> cockpit.
>
> When the wheel/tire hit the first rock, the compression struts in the
> landing gear failed (as designed; thank you, Gerhard Waibel!), allowing the
> undamaged wheel/tire to pivot back and up against the bottom of the
> fuselage where it jammed, keeping the fuselage well above the ground. The
> *second* rock a few meters later creased the fuselage but did no other
> damage because I had still had ground clearance. The landing gear absorbed
> all the shock and was easily repaired by M&H. The damage to my spine if I'd
> landed wheel up would have been much more severe.
>
> I was sitting on a ridge and had ample time to pick a field and make a
> pattern and a textbook low-energy approach. I never saw the rocks in the
> grass.


IMHO, if stopping short is high on Joe Glider Pilot's priorities (as is, I
presume, doing so without damage to his valued, easily-damaged bod) - and both
these things have always been paramount in all of my off-airport landings
because, after all, I'm about to touch down on a more or less completely
unknown surface, despite my best airborne eyeball inspection - JGP's best bet
is knowing how to make a well-aimed, low-energy approach, flare, and touchdown
followed by the heaviest braking of which pilot/ship are capable without
putting the ship up on its nose. (Of course, you can do that, too, if you wish
and your brake is capable.)

My "hidden rock story" involves a huge, plowed/disc-ed, weed-free field in
eastern Wyoming in which I followed (most of) my above advice, came to a
damage-free stop in about 150 (paced-off) feet...and found I'd missed a
steroidally-enhanced, humongo-sized "loaf of french bread" rock by about 3
horizontal feet. The farmer may well have cussed every time he hit it, since
it was large & heavy enough to bend a disc. It was the only rock I saw in the
half mile I walked to the field's edge.

For the curious, I landed in the middle of the field because it was rolling,
and only my actual flare and touchdown was low energy; I used the extra
approach energy to follow the contour until the energy was no longer needed. A
different (shorter) rolling field may well have warranted a different approach
technique.

YMMV...

Bob W.

[Tony[_5_]]

Hey Bob remember that piece of re-bar we found just under the nose of the Cherokee in the disced field at Dalhart? That's my favorite prop when telling peoe why you alwyays stop ASAP!

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 12/8/2014 6:05 PM, Tony wrote:
> Hey Bob remember that piece of re-bar we found just under the nose of the
> Cherokee in the disced field at Dalhart? That's my favorite prop when
> telling peoe why you alwyays stop ASAP!
>

I remember it NOW, ha ha. I doubt it'd eased from my active memories had it
been MY ship and MY OFL! Murphy exists...

Bob W.

[[email protected]]

Gear up or gear down?

The question raises an even more important point.

Why is the question even asked on RAS? Should information such as this not be included in the flight training manuals a pilot reads on the way to becoming a licensed pilot?

What other important information is lacking in this pilot's knowledge?

The answer to this particular question is on page 268 of the "Glider Flight Training Manual." Additional important information on this, and other subjects is included on the many other pages.

A small library is a requirement to becoming a safe, proficient pilot.

Tom Knauff

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 06:53 09 December 2014, wrote:
>Gear up or gear down?
>
>The question raises an even more important point.
>
>Why is the question even asked on RAS? Should information such as this
not
>be included in the flight training manuals a pilot reads on the way to
>becoming a licensed pilot?
>
>What other important information is lacking in this pilot's knowledge?
>
>The answer to this particular question is on page 268 of the "Glider
Flight
>Training Manual." Additional important information on this, and other
>subjects is included on the many other pages.
>
>A small library is a requirement to becoming a safe, proficient pilot.
>
>Tom Knauff


Guidance to always put the wheel down is also in the emergencies sections
of all the modern glider flight manuals that I have seen.

John Galloway

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 06:53 09 December 2014, wrote:
>Gear up or gear down?
>
>The question raises an even more important point.
>
>Why is the question even asked on RAS? Should information such as this
not
>be included in the flight training manuals a pilot reads on the way to
>becoming a licensed pilot?
>
>What other important information is lacking in this pilot's knowledge?
>
>The answer to this particular question is on page 268 of the "Glider
Flight
>Training Manual." Additional important information on this, and other
>subjects is included on the many other pages.
>
>A small library is a requirement to becoming a safe, proficient pilot.
>
>Tom Knauff


Guidance to always put the wheel down is also in the emergencies sections
of all the modern glider flight manuals that I have seen.

John Galloway

[Vaughn]

On 12/9/2014 1:53 AM, wrote:
>Why is the question even asked on RAS? Should information such as
>this not be included in the flight training manuals a pilot reads
>on the way to becoming a licensed pilot?

I respectfully disagree Tom. A good CFI never discourages discussion,
especially when those discussions involve important safety questions.
There are no dumb questions, there are only opportunities to teach.

My shelf is stocked with aviation books, and I've read them all. But my
brain is human and therefore fallible. (Example: My spell checker just
caught my misspelling of "fallible") Should I avoid posting here for
fear of being reprimanded for raising a question?

Vaughn

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 7:50:29 AM UTC-5, Vaughn wrote:
> A good CFI never discourages discussion,
> especially when those discussions involve important safety questions.
> There are no dumb questions, there are only opportunities to teach.

What a great mindset. May we clone you, sir?

FWIW, I've met quite a few pilots trained in the "You didn't read the #$%^in' book, DID YOU!?" tradition and frankly, they aren't very good pilots.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote, On 12/8/2014 10:53 PM:
> Gear up or gear down?
>
> The question raises an even more important point.
>
> Why is the question even asked on RAS? Should information such as
> this not be included in the flight training manuals a pilot reads on
> the way to becoming a licensed pilot?
>
> What other important information is lacking in this pilot's
> knowledge?
>
> The answer to this particular question is on page 268 of the "Glider
> Flight Training Manual." Additional important information on this,
> and other subjects is included on the many other pages.
>
> A small library is a requirement to becoming a safe, proficient
> pilot.

The pilot should also consult the manual for his glider. For example, if
it has a rescue parachute, it may recommend that it be used in some
situations, instead attempting a landing. It will likely still recommend
putting the gear down!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[FreeFlight107]

On Monday, December 8, 2014 12:45:09 PM UTC-8, Graham Drinkell wrote:
> I use a 25mm Confor/Dyna Foam type seat cushion, would this help? The
> scenario, I suggested- would be to able to stop the a/c quickly!

I personally have always used 1" (25mm) of hard Confor Foam + 1" of medium foam in my seats in each of my gliders. and they give great protection as well as a nice firm seat for flying all day.

Also we in the 1-26 fraternity, have a nifty steel reinforced plow installed just forward of the wheel, which is always extended for off field landings, even on hard surfaced runways this little "Plow" will stop you PDQ, and on soft dirt you can actually land in as little as 75' (23m).

Jay Walker