Split Scimitar Winglets

[[email protected]]

I'm sure I'm way behind on this, but yesterday I flew on a new 737-800 with "Split Scimitar" winglets. One airline claimed 3% fuel savings. That seems optimistic to me, but every little bit helps. Is anybody working on adaptations for gliders?

SF

[HGXC[_2_]]

On Wednesday, January 14, 2015 at 10:39:11 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> I'm sure I'm way behind on this, but yesterday I flew on a new 737-800 with "Split Scimitar" winglets. One airline claimed 3% fuel savings. That seems optimistic to me, but every little bit helps. Is anybody working on adaptations for gliders?
>
> SF

Wouldn't they be vulnerable to breaking?

Dennis

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, January 14, 2015 at 10:39:11 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> I'm sure I'm way behind on this, but yesterday I flew on a new 737-800 with "Split Scimitar" winglets. One airline claimed 3% fuel savings. That seems optimistic to me, but every little bit helps. Is anybody working on adaptations for gliders?
>
> SF

3% compared to no winglets or compared to previously used winglets?
Hmmmmmm
UH

[WB]

Big wings have little wings upon their ends to fly'em.
Little wings have lesser wings, and so on, ad infinitum.

Can't remember where who wrote that, but seem relevant.

[Mike Rinaldi]

Winglets not only reduce fuel consumption, increasing range, but also allow for a greater take-off gross weight.

[[email protected]]

How much does a 3% fuel reduction equate to on....say.....a 1-26?

[Dan Marotta]

Oh! Do they increase the strength of the wing carry-through and/or the
landing gear/tires/brakes? We mustn't forget that pesky 1/2*mv**2 thing.

Or do you mean they lower the liftoff speed for a given weight thus
reducing balanced field length?


On 1/14/2015 4:04 PM, Mike Rinaldi wrote:
> Winglets not only reduce fuel consumption, increasing range, but also allow for a greater take-off gross weight.

--
Dan Marotta

[Papa3[_2_]]

The press release from the manufacturer FWIW:

API Announces Latest Upgrade for BBJs
Split Scimitar Winglets
Geneva, Switzerland. May 19, 2014... Aviation Partners, Inc. (API) is here at EBACE to discuss the latest upgrade for BBJs, the new Split Scimitar Winglets (SSWs). The SSWs,recently certified for the 737-800 (including BBJ2) by Aviation Partners Boeing (APB), API's jointventure with the Boeing Company, are already in-service with a number of major airlines. Using a newly patented API design, the SSW program completely redefines the aerodynamics of the existing Blended Winglet. The retrofit to the existing BBJ Blended Winglet will consist of adding a new Scimitar-tipped large Ventral Strake, beef up of internal winglet structure, and replacement of the aluminum winglet tip caps with new aerodynamically shaped "Scimitar" tip
caps. This revolutionary design was flight tested by API in 2012 on a BBJ and confirmed significant drag reduction over the basic Blended Winglet configuration. The unique feature of the Spilt Scimitar Winglet is that it builds on the existing Blended Winglet design to provide a dramatic performance improvement without increasing the existing wing span.
For long-range BBJ operations, the SSW will provide a drag reduction, and corresponding range increase, of 2.5-3.0% over the current Blended Winglet configuration. This translates to a range increase of 200 nautical miles or more for long range operators. "The Split Scimitar Winglet range benefit is tremendously compelling given the missions many BBJ owners undertake," said Gary Dunn, API Vice President of Sales & Marketing, "the upgrade will essentially give a BBJ with seven aux tanks the range of an eight aux
tank airplane."

The Split Scimitar Winglets are already FAA and EASA approved for the 737-800 / BBJ2, with STC anticipated on the remaining 737NG models (including BBJ and BBJ3) by year end. For more information visit API at EBACE (stand #5917) or fly to www.aviationpartners.com.


On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 11:04:01 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Oh! Do they increase the strength of the wing carry-through and/or
> the landing gear/tires/brakes? We mustn't forget that pesky
> 1/2*mv**2 thing.
>
>
>
> Or do you mean they lower the liftoff speed for a given weight thus
> reducing balanced field length?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 1/14/2015 4:04 PM, Mike Rinaldi
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Winglets not only reduce fuel consumption, increasing range, but also allow for a greater take-off gross weight.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

[JS]

Apparently, they're easy to wipe off in a crosswind landing.
I wonder if replacing the nose section (designed ~50 years ago) of the B737 would help more?
Or perhaps adding gear doors?
Jim

[[email protected]]

"How much does a 3% fuel reduction equate to on....say.....a 1-26? "

Subtract 3% off to the current energy-bar/hr rate. It's basic math, just say'n...

[[email protected]]

On a very large Biz Jet costing lord knows how much, adding some BS stuff sometimes helps the sale, especially with promises that it will go further, better, at less cost Sir -- honest it will. But no guarantees of course.
When Southwest adds them to its 37 fleet you will know they actually work, not before.




> I'm sure I'm way behind on this, but yesterday I flew on a new 737-800 with "Split Scimitar" winglets. One airline claimed 3% fuel savings. That seems optimistic to me, but every little bit helps. Is anybody working on adaptations for gliders?
>
> SF

[[email protected]]

Saw them on an SWA airplane in Dallas last week.

[Papa3[_2_]]

SW was a launch customer...

On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 1:57:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On a very large Biz Jet costing lord knows how much, adding some BS stuff sometimes helps the sale, especially with promises that it will go further, better, at less cost Sir -- honest it will. But no guarantees of course.
> When Southwest adds them to its 37 fleet you will know they actually work, not before.
>
>
>
>
> > I'm sure I'm way behind on this, but yesterday I flew on a new 737-800 with "Split Scimitar" winglets. One airline claimed 3% fuel savings. That seems optimistic to me, but every little bit helps. Is anybody working on adaptations for gliders?
> >
> > SF

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 2:50:57 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> SW was a launch customer...
>
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/04/southwest-airlines-gets-its-first-split-scimitar-winglet-airplane.html/

[Ron Gleason]

On Thursday, 15 January 2015 13:22:57 UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
> On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 2:50:57 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> > SW was a launch customer...
> >
> http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/04/southwest-airlines-gets-its-first-split-scimitar-winglet-airplane.html/

A friend flies for SW and he says they make cross wind landings a bit trickier as it is harder to hold the crab angle. Plus no one want to the first one to damage the $1mil+ winglets by scraping them on the ground

[[email protected]]

I started the split scimitar discussion as a bit of a joke, but as noted, when SWA is on board, this is serious.

I think that adapting SS winglets to gliders will require "retractability" for takeoffs or landings or we will be spending a lot of time and money repairing the fancy things. I'm sure someone with extensive modeling time can come up with a battery-powered RC motor that could lower the bottom blade after release and raise it before landing. Now all we need is someone from API to allow access to their patented technology so we can shape the new tips appropriately. (I knew I should have kept my wind tunnel.)

SF (Only sort of tongue-in-cheek)

[[email protected]]

On Friday, January 16, 2015 at 7:10:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> I started the split scimitar discussion as a bit of a joke, but as noted, when SWA is on board, this is serious.
>
> I think that adapting SS winglets to gliders will require "retractability" for takeoffs or landings or we will be spending a lot of time and money repairing the fancy things. I'm sure someone with extensive modeling time can come up with a battery-powered RC motor that could lower the bottom blade after release and raise it before landing. Now all we need is someone from API to allow access to their patented technology so we can shape the new tips appropriately. (I knew I should have kept my wind tunnel.)
>
> SF (Only sort of tongue-in-cheek)

Prior art: Peter Masak built and flew a set of similar split winglets over 20 years ago for his Nimbus.
Imagine- a landing gear position interlock that raises your hangie down things when the gear is down.
Before all this exotic and questionable "art" is applied to a glider, it would pay to have the best single element winglet. Many ships have winglets with significant improvement potential.
UH

[Dan Marotta]

....Or raise the lowers ala the Slingsby Vega tail wheel with a
mechanical linkage. Of course, it should be simple to make the linkage
connect automagically during assembly. Is it April 1 yet?


On 1/16/2015 6:42 AM, wrote:
> On Friday, January 16, 2015 at 7:10:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:
>> I started the split scimitar discussion as a bit of a joke, but as noted, when SWA is on board, this is serious.
>>
>> I think that adapting SS winglets to gliders will require "retractability" for takeoffs or landings or we will be spending a lot of time and money repairing the fancy things. I'm sure someone with extensive modeling time can come up with a battery-powered RC motor that could lower the bottom blade after release and raise it before landing. Now all we need is someone from API to allow access to their patented technology so we can shape the new tips appropriately. (I knew I should have kept my wind tunnel.)
>>
>> SF (Only sort of tongue-in-cheek)
> Prior art: Peter Masak built and flew a set of similar split winglets over 20 years ago for his Nimbus.
> Imagine- a landing gear position interlock that raises your hangie down things when the gear is down.
> Before all this exotic and questionable "art" is applied to a glider, it would pay to have the best single element winglet. Many ships have winglets with significant improvement potential.
> UH

--
Dan Marotta

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Wednesday, January 14, 2015 at 9:37:47 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 14, 2015 at 10:39:11 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > I'm sure I'm way behind on this, but yesterday I flew on a new 737-800 with "Split Scimitar" winglets. One airline claimed 3% fuel savings. That seems optimistic to me, but every little bit helps. Is anybody working on adaptations for gliders?
> >
> > SF
>
> 3% compared to no winglets or compared to previously used winglets?
> Hmmmmmm
> UH

"Each traditional pair of winglets on the 737 cuts fuel consumption by 3.5% to 4% on flights of more than 1,000 nautical miles. The split scimitar upgrade--which costs $545,000, before discounts-will reduce fuel burn by up to 2% more, says United, which hopes to save up to $60 million a year because of the devices, once its fleet is outfitted."

[KN]

On Friday, January 16, 2015 at 12:45:58 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> ...Or raise the lowers ala the Slingsby Vega tail wheel with a
> mechanical linkage.* Of course, it should be simple to make the
> linkage connect automagically during assembly.* Is it April 1 yet?
>
>
> I thought it would make a good wing tip skid or with a small wheel fitted , a wing tip wheel, no?
Khanh
>
>
>
> On 1/16/2015 6:42 AM,
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, January 16, 2015 at 7:10:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:
>
>
> I started the split scimitar discussion as a bit of a joke, but as noted, when SWA is on board, this is serious.
>
> I think that adapting SS winglets to gliders will require "retractability" for takeoffs or landings or we will be spending a lot of time and money repairing the fancy things. I'm sure someone with extensive modeling time can come up with a battery-powered RC motor that could lower the bottom blade after release and raise it before landing. Now all we need is someone from API to allow access to their patented technology so we can shape the new tips appropriately. (I knew I should have kept my wind tunnel.)
>
> SF (Only sort of tongue-in-cheek)
>
>
> Prior art: Peter Masak built and flew a set of similar split winglets over 20 years ago for his Nimbus.
> Imagine- a landing gear position interlock that raises your hangie down things when the gear is down.
> Before all this exotic and questionable "art" is applied to a glider, it would pay to have the best single element winglet. Many ships have winglets with significant improvement potential.
> UH
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

[Werner Schmidt]

Hello SF, you wrote 2015/01/16 at 13:10:

> I started the split scimitar discussion as a bit of a joke, but as noted, when SWA is on board, this is serious.

to extend this discussion a little:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_device>

look for "spiroid winglet" about 80% down the page (or use "search"
function of your browser). Could be more effective and less fragile than
the discussed Split Scimitar Winglets. I remember I saw some more simple
construction years ago (on pictures); those were a kind of ring-shaped
winglets. Maybe they are not as efective as the spiroids, but surely
more simple to build and perhaps not patented(?).

[Werner Schmidt]

Hello SF, you wrote 2015/01/16 at 13:10:

> I started the split scimitar discussion as a bit of a joke, but as
noted, when SWA is on board, this is serious.

to extend this discussion a little:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_device>

look for "spiroid winglet" about 80% down the page (or use "search"
function of your browser). Could be more effective and less fragile than
the discussed Split Scimitar Winglets. I remember I saw some more simple
construction years ago (on pictures); those were a kind of ring-shaped
winglets. Maybe they are not as efective as the spiroids, but surely
more simple to build and perhaps not patented(?).

regards

Werner

[Dave Springford]

The split winglet design tried by Masak is attributed to Dave Marsden in Peter's paper here:

www.postfrontal.com/PDF/Winglets_01.pdf

[Papa3[_2_]]

Many years ago when I was finishing my senior thesis in college writing about the development of jet powered airliners, I was digging through the "stacks" in the library looking for aerodynamic textbooks from the 1930s and 1940s. Winglets, ring wings, box wings - you name it. All documented barely 20 years after the Wrights made their first flight. It's taken 80 years to refine them, but it's amazing to me that the concepts have been around that long.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Friday, January 16, 2015 at 7:59:53 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> Many years ago when I was finishing my senior thesis in college writing about the development of jet powered airliners, I was digging through the "stacks" in the library looking for aerodynamic textbooks from the 1930s and 1940s. Winglets, ring wings, box wings - you name it. All documented barely 20 years after the Wrights made their first flight. It's taken 80 years to refine them, but it's amazing to me that the concepts have been around that long.

Sooo..... would you say:

"What goes around, comes around"?

Or.....

"Those that don't study history are doomed to repeat it?"

Not slinging "poop" at anyone, just that there are times when an idea is a bit, "Too soon to accept" and have to await a correct time to be accepted.

;-)

[[email protected]]

Southwest has discontinued the split scimitar winglet on future 737-800 deliveries, going back to basic blended design. Expected fuel burn reduction supposedly not realized in daily operations.... But they do look cool.