Re: 1st day at heli Expo 2005..

[Vaughn Simon]

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message ...
> Man do my feet hurt.. Spent the day in the booth demonstrating flight
> sims to a wide range of people.. Embery Riddle students (some of 'em
> were damn good sticks!), a 9 year old boy who flew pretty good and a
> rated helo pilot that could barely hover the thing, much less hold a
> steady heading and altitude..

I have always thought that a *real* flight sim should be good enough
that an experienced pilot (who had never before "flown" a computer) should
be able to at least take off and land safely at the first attempt, just as
he/she could surely do in a real aircraft. I live in the fixed wing world.
but I have yet to see a computer sim that could come close to meeting this
elementary standard. Until they get there, they are (perhaps) good
instrument procedures trainers, and uniquely entertaining toys; but they are
surely not flight simulators because they are somehow failing to properly
model the experience of flying a real aircraft.

Vaughn

[Shaber CJ]

<< On the converse, I watched a guy who
recently came out of the service with over 2,000 hours in Cobras and
Apaches he had a difficult time with it. >><BR><BR>

How does one get so many hours on Army (Apaches) and Marine (Cobras) birds? I
thought the Army has not flown Cobras since the early 80"s.

[[email protected]]

CJ
It was not at all uncommon for lateral transfers from USA to USMC when
they could or vice versa due to rifs or plain old cutbacks. Some did it
for a change of scenery and now they all get equal time in the sandbox!
Cheers
Ol S&B

[[email protected]]

Kevin
If you happen to notice the LifePort booth..EMS equipment and usually a
large display, please tell Bruce and Frank I said hello?
Thanks
Rocky aka Ol S&B

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

Kevin: Which Flite sim were you operating? There were Three that I saw ,
the Frasca, a real inexpensive one that used the projected image of the
instruments and one in the back of the building that I didn't get to see. I
flew the inexpensive one and was impressed, but it lacked any control
feedback which makes it hard for me to hover. I did hover, tho and take
off, fly about and land without losing it even tho the display was for a
206, which I've never flown. For a system that could simulate instrument
flight for under $4,000, I was impressed.

--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Kevin
> If you happen to notice the LifePort booth..EMS equipment and usually a
> large display, please tell Bruce and Frank I said hello?
> Thanks
> Rocky aka Ol S&B
>

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

Kevin: It was Flite Link. Too bad I didn't know you were back there with
the FlyIt booth. I would have made a special effort to get there.

--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message ...
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:50:06 -0800, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
> > wrote:
>
> >Kevin: Which Flite sim were you operating? There were Three that I saw
,
> >the Frasca, a real inexpensive one that used the projected image of the
> >instruments and one in the back of the building that I didn't get to see.
I
> >flew the inexpensive one and was impressed, but it lacked any control
> >feedback which makes it hard for me to hover. I did hover, tho and take
> >off, fly about and land without losing it even tho the display was for a
> >206, which I've never flown. For a system that could simulate instrument
> >flight for under $4,000, I was impressed.
>
> I was working the FlyIt booth over in the static hall. I do contract
> work for 'em designing the electrical systems. I flew the Frasca unit
> this morning. Not too bad - pretty sensitive on the controls, but the
> projection they were using was washed out by the overhead lights.
> They were sure touting the "we wrote our own software" bit tho..
> Funny how they had a placard that said "This simulator is owned and
> operated by Silver State helicopters." I talked to one of the Silver
> State GM's yesterday and he did confirm it would be delivered to his
> hangar, but he was a bit concerned it would be a bit 'seasoned' by the
> demo flyers.
>
> Dunno where you got the $4,000 price (Unless that was Flight Link's
> "chair" device) 'cuz the Frasca sim has a list price of $150,000.
>
> The one in the "back of the building" was probably the FlyIt sim(s)
> (There were two) Fully self-contained in a trailer. Plug it in and
> fly. For what it does, it's a pretty decent unit. I plan on
> practicing instrument procedures in the thing a LOT when I start my
> instrument training on 3/1 (Assuming the contract keeps going
> hehehe)
>
> Got the day off tomorrow and am going to hdrive back up to watch the
> Skycrane launch. Talked to the pilot for quite a while this afternoon
> and he said they were going to launch about 11am or so.. If I get up
> there, I'll take some pics..
>
> Only bad thing about the show was the GES people after the show ended.
> I hooked up the FlyIt demo sim to my truck to haul it back to San
> Diego and was told to go 3 different directions by 5 different people.
> Trying to maneuver a 22' long truck and a 25' foot long trailer around
> multi-million dollar aircraft was not fun. Those people REALLY had
> their heads up and locked...
>
> Took some pics this morning and will slurp 'em outta the camera
> tomorrow and post 'em somehwere. Just got home and I'm pooped. I'm
> going to bed...
>
>

[Vaughn Simon]

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message ...
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:11:47 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
> > wrote:
..
>
> The problem with most "sims" is the lack of tactical and perceptual
> feedback. It's difficult to "hover" a sim based solely on visual cues
> from a 2 dimensional viewscreen. The lack of peripheral vision and
> the seat of the pants stuff is quite apparent in a sim like this.
> Unless you're sitting in a multi-million-dollar full motion sim,
> you're not going to get all the sensory input you need.

Exactly. Today's PCs have the power to easily run multiple screens and
provide tactile feedback. Just because it is difficult to do does not make
it unimportant.
>
> Today I "flew" with a really cool older guy who flew CH-3s and UH-1Bs
> (Hueys) up until 1991. Hadn't flown a thing since. He flew the demo
> "mission" almost perfectly.

That is very encouraging, just the the test I was talking about. Did
you happen to ask him if he had any experience with computer sims?

>On the converse, I watched a guy who
> recently came out of the service with over 2,000 hours in Cobras and
> Apaches he had a difficult time with it. I spoke to him a bit after
> his session and he mentioned the same things I mention above.

One wonders how he would do in a real R22?

>
> I agree that the sim would be very helpful for practicing instrument
> procedures, but it also teaches the fundamental relationships between
> control inputs.. More collective, more pedal etc...

That depends on the quality of the sim.

> I taught my 10
> year old the basics in one of these things in about an hour and with a
> little coaching from me, she damn near pulled off a landing from about
> 500' "AGL" in a MD500. If not for the small sideways movement that
> roller her over on touchdown, she'd have done the entire flight by
> herself. Kinda tosses the "experienced pilot" bit out the window,
> doesn't it??

No, not at all. Your daughter could probably outdo most any adult at
most any video game. That in no way measures how well you are modeling a
real piloting task.

For now, I have given up on flight sims for myself and my students, but
I remain hopeful for the future. I have had mixed results with flight
sim-savy students. I have had students that could fly a flight sim well,
but were clueless in the cockpit, but when I sit down at their sim (which
they can fly well) I am incapable of safely performing a simple pattern
flight. I finally came to the conclusion that whatever the popular home
sims were modeling, it was not flight.

On rereading my original post, I find myself concerned that you may
have intrepreted it as a shot across your bow. That was not my intent! I
was just trying to touch off a fruitful discussion and figure out the
current state of the art.


Vaughn


:)
>
>

[Heli-Chair]

I can't help but share my simulator opinions (
http://www.heli-chair.com ). I feel that without very extensive
modeling, the physics of rotor wing flight is very difficult to
reproduce with a computer. I have not flown the advanced sims but I am
familiar with how the more inexpensive ones work, and it isn't very
good (speaking strictly in terms of the basics of flight). I am not
disputing their ability to teach procedures and familiarization with
instruments, etc. Flying approaches in the sim can be very
instructional indeed.

Some years ago, I endeavored to teach myself how to hover a helicopter.
I did so by building a set of controls including torque pedals,
cyclic, collective and throttle. I equiped the controls with
electornics capable of controlling a small remote controlled
helicopter. The remote helicopter has about a 4 foot diameter main
rotor. Before you read on, understand that I now sell these helicopter
flight training devices, so I am of course a strong advocate of what it
has taught me.

I found right away that hovering was indeed very difficult. I was a
competent and current FAA rated fixed wing pilot at the time and that
didn't help much. It reminded me of when I first learned to fly a
fixed wing and how steering (while taxiing) with my feet was so
difficult. After driving for so many years, stepping on the right
pedal to turn right was different and it took a while to learn that
motor function.

After a few hours training with my device, I found that my feet were
now talking directly to my left hand when I applied power. Likewise,
my right hand had a mind all it's own, responding to every wind gust
and every action that the helicopter took almost by instinct. In the
early stages, I went pretty easy on the collective and stayed low.
When things went wrong, I would just dump the collective and roll off
the throttle.

Needless to say, this taught me far more than a sim ever could in terms
of how to operate the controls of a helicopter. By utilizing a real
aircraft, I eliminated the millions of lines of computer code required
to "calculate" how the helicopter flies. The remotely controlled
helicopter simply obeys the laws of physics, just like any full size
aircraft.

If your rotor speed gets slow, the cyclic gets soft and you eventually
run out of tail rotor authority, if you descend too fast
vertically...voila! - settling with power. You can even feel the
difference in trim due to fuel load changes and physically see the
helicopter tilted in roll when in a hover (something has to offset the
horizontal thrust of the tail rotor.)

I have connected the device to the computer to fly with one of the
worst helicopter sims available (Microsoft flight simulator) and lost
interest immediately. Things just aren't nearly the same. A full size
computer flight sim is certainly helpful in training, I'm just saying
that for the physics of actual flight, they just don't stack up.

If you are wondering if I sucessfully taught myself how to fly a
helicopter, yes I did. It was one of the most rewarding days of my
life. I had an opportunity to fly right seat in a Hughes 500. I
convinced the pilot to let me try it (since he was an active helicopter
CFI, he agreed). First he allowed me to do the cyclic in the pattern,
which as rotorcraft pilots know is kind of like flying a fixed wing
aircraft. He took over next to the ground and since I was dying for
more, I told him I wanted to try hovering. He gave me the pedals
first. They were pretty soft compared to my Heli-Chair training
device, so no problems there. Then he gave me collective only and
again that wasn't too bad. He was surprised that I did so good. He
then said, "OK, I'll give you just the cyclic. You won't be able to do
it, so I'll take it when you lose control." Loss of control never
happened. This was EXACTLY like flying with my Heli-Chair, it was
instinct what to do with the controls. He was amazed. He then granted
me all controls and I held it very steady indeed.

My 'instructor' remarked that "there is no way you have never flown a
helicopter before!" At which point I had to confess my self training.

I would love to try one of the full size sims out there, just to get a
better idea how they stack up. I can't criticise them without flying
them; however I have flown one of the nicer fixed wing simulators, and
being a fixed wing pilot I was very unimpressed at how it handled.

I have turned my experience into a business and I offer the helicopter
trainers for sale. I believe them to be so faithful in reproducing the
flight of a helicopter, I refer to my trainer as an "emulator" rather
than "simulator."

Kas
Heli-Chair.com


for more info:
http://www.heli-chair.com

to see my sucessful first flight:
http://www.heli-chair.com/training_works.html

and if you have problems remembering the website, this one is sure to
be memorable:
http://www.LearnToHover.com

[The OTHER Kevin in San Diego]

On 11 Feb 2005 05:41:22 -0800, "Heli-Chair" >
wrote:

>I can't help but share my simulator opinions (
>http://www.heli-chair.com ). I feel that without very extensive
>modeling, the physics of rotor wing flight is very difficult to
>reproduce with a computer. I have not flown the advanced sims but I am
>familiar with how the more inexpensive ones work, and it isn't very
>good (speaking strictly in terms of the basics of flight). I am not
>disputing their ability to teach procedures and familiarization with
>instruments, etc. Flying approaches in the sim can be very
>instructional indeed.
>
>Some years ago, I endeavored to teach myself how to hover a helicopter.
> I did so by building a set of controls including torque pedals,
>cyclic, collective and throttle. I equiped the controls with
>electornics capable of controlling a small remote controlled
>helicopter. The remote helicopter has about a 4 foot diameter main
>rotor. Before you read on, understand that I now sell these helicopter
>flight training devices, so I am of course a strong advocate of what it
>has taught me.

[snip]

Not to minimize your accomplishment, but if you crash your emulator,
it's gonna cost money. I just balled up a Bell 206 about a dozen
times a few minutes ago. Zero cost.. Just had to hit the reset
button and try again. (quick stops INTO a hangar)

[Tim]

The Army just retired the Cobras in I believe 2002

"Shaber CJ" > wrote in message
...
> << On the converse, I watched a guy who
> recently came out of the service with over 2,000 hours in Cobras and
> Apaches he had a difficult time with it. >><BR><BR>
>
> How does one get so many hours on Army (Apaches) and Marine (Cobras)
> birds? I
> thought the Army has not flown Cobras since the early 80"s.
>