Oh dear, someone is *still* using this tired old non-story

[Dave Pearson]

<URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_np.html>
And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will be a
regular feature from now on? <sigh>

--
Dave Pearson
http://www.davep.org/

[Monty]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:22:08 GMT, "The original Russ."
> wrote:
>I can honesty say that anyone without proper flight training in a real
>aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't know which way to turn in an actual
>commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone know how to fly the friggin thing
>with enough accuracy to hit a building!!!
Come off it a few years a go a guy landed a jet who had never seen the
inside of a cockpit in his life and saved the lives of quite a few
people in doing so .
Monty .

[pr]

Monty ) wrote:

> Come off it a few years a go a guy landed a jet who had never seen the
> inside of a cockpit in his life and saved the lives of quite a few
> people in doing so .

Oh, yeah! To which movie are you referring? Airport 77? Airplane?
Turbulence? Executive Decision?

--
Peter

[BCA03]

"The original Russ." > wrote in message
...
> ROFL!
>
> Goodness me. I've been lucky enough over the years to have spent time in
the
> jump seat on a few commercial flights during takeoffs and landings.
>
> I can honesty say that anyone without proper flight training in a real
> aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't know which way to turn in an
actual
> commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone know how to fly the friggin thing
> with enough accuracy to hit a building!!!
>
> When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Russ.

Oh I dont know Russ. If we are speaking about the kind of terrorist
atrocities carried out on 9/11, all they had to be able to do was some basic
navigation and control the speed and altitude of the craft. If they knew how
to use the A/P and programme the FMC it wouldnt have been too hard to get to
the Towers. And remember, we are speaking about two of the tallest buildings
around at the time, not some backyard outhouse.

If we are speaking about a Simmer jumping into the LH seat and being able to
take off, or control the thing in the air, then I agree that most would be
lost. However there are simmers who take it that stage further. The one time
I got up front for a landing, I wouldnt say I was particularly knowldgable,
but I did know what all the main bits were and how they worked. Since that
time I have learned a hell of a lot more, to the point that now I could sit
in the thingypit of a 747 and pretty much know what everything did. It helps
that I have had a couple of lessons from a RL 747 pilot of course, but even
he is impressed at just how well the PSS 747 resembles the real thing. I
would also feel comfortable in the 737-400 series, and soon probably the
NG700's, and there are probably lots of simmers who know a lot more than I
do.

To say that FS2xxx can be used to help terrorists with nefarious intentions
is probably true. To suggest that there are armies of them out there using
it for some long term doomsday scenario would probably be false, at least I
hope it is ;-)

The VA that I fly for has 3 or 4 RL pilots (Jets not Props), and to a man
they all agree that flying Jets in FS can be harder than the real thing.
Whether its because FS doesnt have the feel that sitting in a moving object
does, or the lack of peripheral vision, or even the fact that a lot of the
Jets in FS are difficult to trim for straight and level is neither here nor
there, but if I can follow a 10DME Arc in FS, or make a 7DME tear drop
approach and line up perfect, or even land on two engines in the PSS747 with
a stiff crosswind in FS, then I would have more idea in the real thing than
most passengers.

I agree that it is a tired old story, but I dont agree that "anyone without
proper flight training in a real aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't
know which way to turn in an actual commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone
know how to fly the friggin thing with enough accuracy to hit a building"

Now, if you had said "most people" instead of "anyone", we would be in
agreement <g>

Rgds,

Chris J






> Dave Pearson > wrote in message
> .. .
> >
>
<URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_
> np.html>
> > And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will
be
> a
> > regular feature from now on? <sigh>
> >
> > --
> > Dave Pearson
> > http://www.davep.org/
>
>
>

[Dan Husk]

Dave, You think all us "Flight-Simmers" are on a potential terroist list
somewhere? Nothing more dangerous than a redneck with a renegade 777 !!!
;-))

Blue Skies,
Danny

"Dave Pearson" > wrote in message
.. .
>
<URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_
np.html>
> And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will be
a
> regular feature from now on? <sigh>
>
> --
> Dave Pearson
> http://www.davep.org/

[Neil Trotter]

In article >, Monty said:

> Come off it a few years a go a guy landed a jet who had never seen the
> inside of a cockpit in his life and saved the lives of quite a few
> people in doing so .

Can you provide references for this?

Indicators of a high UL-factor:

"a few years ago"
"a guy"
"a jet"
"never seen the inside of a cockpit"

Of course if times, places and names were recorded, the accuracy of the
tale could be determined.

--
Neil Trotter, Canewdon, UK

[John Ward]

Hi Derek,

Come on mate, don't hold back so much, spit it out, say what you really
mean! :-))

Regards,
John
"Derek Wildstar" > wrote in message
news:%vXTa.137180$ye4.95912@sccrnsc01...
>
> "Dave Pearson" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >
>
<URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_
> np.html>
> > And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will
be
> a
> > regular feature from now on? <sigh>
> >
> > --
> > Dave Pearson
> > http://www.davep.org/
>
> I emailed the author are told him exactly what I thought of his story,
utter
> crap.
>
> Anyone else with time to spare, email the editors of Salon as well. Here's
> the page.
>
> http://www.salon.com/about/letters/index.html
>
> Do not let them perpetuate this horsesh*t.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Poul Haig]

The B767, B777 and B737 CBT(Computer Based Traning) interactive
manuals/course with real simulations of cockpit operations and procedures,
can be downloaded from P2P networks, or bought online.

http://cpat.com/B767.htm
"This program is used by Hawaiian Airlines, and Aeris Airlines."
http://cpat.com
"CPaT is Trusted and Used at over 39 airlines and training organizations"

http://www.aeronett.com/files/b767/b767.html
"Developed in conjunction with Canadian Airlines International"

http://www.wicat.com/flight/training/aeronet/a320fct.htm
"Airbus A320 Flight Crew Training is a Windows-based computer-based training (CBT)
course that trains flight crews in the operation of the Airbus A320 aircraft"


My point is, if Microsoft Flight simulator is to blame for anything

other than being a good computer game, the above product is properly more

likely to be the terrorists first choice.





maybe aircraft manuals should be label Top Secret :-)




Ph.

[Poul Haig]

I dont know what happent to my last post, ending tekst..

My point is, Microsoft Flight simulator is not to blame for anything
other than being a good computer game, the above product is properly more
likely to be the terrorists first choice.

The hole issue/link Microsoft Flightsimulator= terrorist traning tool
is crap.

Ph.

[Derek Wildstar]

"John Ward" > wrote in message
u...
> Hi Derek,
>
> Come on mate, don't hold back so much, spit it out, say what you
really
> mean! :-))
>
> Regards,
> John


Pilots train for years and years to operate the most demanding pieces of
equipment in the most extreme of conditions, to think that a person can
become intimate with an aircraft in front of a PC, and to do so for montrous
purpose ignores logic and decency.

Flight and flight simming is, to me, more noble than that authors
ill-considered dismissiveness.

Hey, ranting is fun! :)

[Ken Hughes]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:22:08 GMT, "The original Russ."
> wrote:

Hi Russ,

As a journalist, I can say this with hand on heart:

>When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol.

When the other arseholes stop buying what we write *g*

Ken

__________________________________________________ ____________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[John Ward]

Err, Huh ?
"Ken Hughes" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:22:08 GMT, "The original Russ."
> > wrote:
>
> Hi Russ,
>
> As a journalist, I can say this with hand on heart:
>
> >When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol.
>
> When the other arseholes stop buying what we write *g*
>
> Ken
>
> __________________________________________________ ____________________
> Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 -
http://www.uncensored-news.com
> <><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source
<><><><><><><><>
>

[John Ward]

Hi DW,

Well, as DCAO3 pointed out, one(more skilled than me) could probably hit
a building or two no doubt, so I guess it has to be considered a valid point
of view.

The more my thick mind comes to appreciate about real-life pilots, be it
on big, small, medium, new, old, ancient, experimental....a/c, the more I
would also say that it's perhaps one of the highest goals one could aspire
to, whether for commercial, personal, technical, intellectual,
ideological... reasons.

I still hope and pray that none of those *******s try in vain to home in
on my 2 Twin Peaks (i,e. my 2 Geraniums in the garden), because I'd be
mighty ****ed off if they caused any damage! ). Not to mention my insurance
premium increase, because the neighbours might sue me for something....and
the Judges might, in their wisdom, award damages ("intellectually based",
because none of us are capable of thinking on the same plane as them,
surely!, and the planes didn't demolish THEIR Geraniums, so it's not
personal)....

End of rant, and what was the question?.. No, no, End of Question, and
what was the Rant?.. No, no end

Yoh Bro, I feel better now,
Although, re Martin's poetry,
I don't know how...

You're right, as usual, ranting can be fun :-))

Regards,
John


"Derek Wildstar" > wrote in message
news:UW%Ta.140026$H17.49307@sccrnsc02...
>
> "John Ward" > wrote in message
> u...
> > Hi Derek,
> >
> > Come on mate, don't hold back so much, spit it out, say what you
> really
> > mean! :-))
> >
> > Regards,
> > John
>
>
> Pilots train for years and years to operate the most demanding pieces of
> equipment in the most extreme of conditions, to think that a person can
> become intimate with an aircraft in front of a PC, and to do so for
montrous
> purpose ignores logic and decency.
>
> Flight and flight simming is, to me, more noble than that authors
> ill-considered dismissiveness.
>
> Hey, ranting is fun! :)
>
>

[Dave Pearson]

[Warning: Quotes rearranged]

* Dan Husk >:

> "Dave Pearson" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
> > <URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_np.html>
> > And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will be a
> > regular feature from now on? <sigh>
>
> Dave, You think all us "Flight-Simmers" are on a potential terroist list
> somewhere? Nothing more dangerous than a redneck with a renegade 777 !!!
> ;-))

HeHe. Seriously though, no, I doubt we're all on a list somewhere (ok, we
probably all are on *some* list *somewhere*). What interested me is that,
getting on for two years ago we were due a new release of MSFS and then
certain events happened. There was much (in the UK at least) media
speculation about the connection between the New York and Washington attacks
and commodity flight simulation. The speculation generally appearing to be
baseless (in the UK at least if you can blame something on computers, the
internet and/or geeks then you're onto a winning story).

What I found interesting is that, coincidently(?), here we are getting ready
for a new release of MSFS and such a story crops up again. Is someone
desperate for a story?

--
Dave Pearson
http://www.davep.org/

[pr]

[re-arranged quoting]

John Ward ) wrote:

> "Ken Hughes" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:22:08 GMT, "The original Russ."
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Hi Russ,
> >
> > As a journalist, I can say this with hand on heart:
> >
> > >When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol.
> >
> > When the other arseholes stop buying what we write *g*
>
> Err, Huh ?

It is a well-known fact that sensationalism sells papers and draws viewers
to the evening news. More subscribers/views equals more ad revenue. Ken
is stating that the minute people stop buying/watching, these journalists
will stop sensationalizing.

It is quite clear to me that the sim article linked in this thread was
written for little other reason than sensationalism. But then again, how
large is the daily readership of Salon.com?


--
Peter

[Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo]

Dave Pearson wrote:
> <URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_np.html>
> And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will be a
> regular feature from now on? <sigh>
>


Hopefully not. I believe 'Josh' has been watching far too many nostalgic
re-runs of Bro' Serling's "Twilight Zone" coupled with, dare I say it,
and per his piece, a bit more 'Gordon's' than that of the accompanying
tonic chaser. Let's just say that the piece could be equated with that
rather poor paste gig of Osama sticking out the right seat window!

Doc Tony

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:29:27 +1000, "John Ward"
> wrote:

>Hi DW,
>
> Well, as DCAO3 pointed out, one(more skilled than me) could probably hit
>a building or two no doubt, so I guess it has to be considered a valid point
>of view.
>
> The more my thick mind comes to appreciate about real-life pilots, be it
>on big, small, medium, new, old, ancient, experimental....a/c, the more I
>would also say that it's perhaps one of the highest goals one could aspire
>to, whether for commercial, personal, technical, intellectual,
>ideological... reasons.
And... a profuse thank you. <:-)) But it's not really all that
difficult. It does take a bit of work, dedication to practice, and a
bit of money, but most students that hang with it are able to get
their pilot certificates.

The flying around is the least difficult part. If you aren't worried
about holding heading and altitude closely, nor concerned about
airspeed other than staying fast enough it gets even simpler.

I regularly take kids for rides and after leveling off let them take
the controls. (I fly a high performance, complex, retract, single
engine with a cruise a tad under 200 MPH). Normally even 10 year olds
are able to hold altitude and course after a few minutes of coaching.

A few more minutes and they can do shallow turns. The surprising
thing with the kids is they do better than many experienced pilots who
fly the smaller Pipers and Cessnas. They haven't had a chance to
learn any bad habits and they don't have a 120 MPH mind in a 200 MPH
airplane. The responses of the Deb are far quicker than most trainers
in the General Aviation fleet. Due to that many of the Piper and
Cessna pilots will end up in a PIO in less than a minute at the
controls.

One pilot who has spent a lot of time in Cessna 172s told me as we
were doing 2 Gs out of the bottom and zeroooo over the top..."I know
what it's doing, but by the time I correct, it just seems to make it
worse." That's kinda like the old, "It hurts when I do this", well if
it makes it worse, what's the cure? Quite doing that. He did and the
Deb went happily along and quite trying to make me sick in my own
airplane.

Each year our EAA chapter holds a couple of ground schools for kids
about 10 through 17. After a week at camp (a mixture of learning
about aviation and ground school), they do the flight plans and we go
out and fly them. Once the kids realize what to do as far as holding
altitude and course (and that they can't do anything I can't undo)they
do right well on navigating using VFR.

We fly a triangular course about 30 miles on a leg with an airport at
each corner. They some times take a little prompting as to what they
should look for (land marks), but for many this may be only the second
or third time they've even gone for a ride.

NO, they don't do stalls, steep turns, landings or take offs, but
neither did those involved in 9/11.

As I said, Flying the things is the easy part.

This is what I've had the kids flying.
http://www.rogerhalstead.com/833pics.htm


If you want to see airplanes, the big fly-in at Oshkosh Wisconsin
starts this coming week. There will most likely be something like
10,000 to 14,000 aircraft of all makes, models, and ages as well as
air shows that last most of the afternoons. and there will be
military demonstrations as well as static displays.

If you go to my home page and follow the table of contents you will
find a number of photos including a pair of F-104s in formation.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
> I still hope and pray that none of those *******s try in vain to home in
>on my 2 Twin Peaks (i,e. my 2 Geraniums in the garden), because I'd be
>mighty ****ed off if they caused any damage! ). Not to mention my insurance
>premium increase, because the neighbours might sue me for something....and
>the Judges might, in their wisdom, award damages ("intellectually based",
>because none of us are capable of thinking on the same plane as them,
>surely!, and the planes didn't demolish THEIR Geraniums, so it's not
>personal)....
>
> End of rant, and what was the question?.. No, no, End of Question, and
>what was the Rant?.. No, no end
>
> Yoh Bro, I feel better now,
> Although, re Martin's poetry,
> I don't know how...
>
> You're right, as usual, ranting can be fun :-))
>
>Regards,
>John
>
>
>"Derek Wildstar" > wrote in message
>news:UW%Ta.140026$H17.49307@sccrnsc02...
>>
>> "John Ward" > wrote in message
>> u...
>> > Hi Derek,
>> >
>> > Come on mate, don't hold back so much, spit it out, say what you
>> really
>> > mean! :-))
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > John
>>
>>
>> Pilots train for years and years to operate the most demanding pieces of
>> equipment in the most extreme of conditions, to think that a person can
>> become intimate with an aircraft in front of a PC, and to do so for
>montrous
>> purpose ignores logic and decency.
>>
>> Flight and flight simming is, to me, more noble than that authors
>> ill-considered dismissiveness.
>>
>> Hey, ranting is fun! :)
>>
>>
>

[GeoffC]

Chris,

Yet again I will have to agree with you about the PSS realism. I know it's
not all there but it does allow you to experience a large amount of the
procedures. Having sat in on a couple of the training sessions that you
refer to with a RL pilot it certainly reinforces that view.

It also looks like the real thing as far as I can seen from photos of actual
aircraft.

With regard to real pilots taking a long to gain high levels of competence
that is true. However I guess they spend most of their time learning what
to do when things go wrong. You don't really need that part of the training
if you are a terrorist.

From a terrorist perspective they let the real pilot do all the difficult
stuff at the airport and takeoff, then try and take control. Once airborne,
plenty of power and the EADI the right way up and it will most likely stay
in the air.

Even from my simming experience the difficult part of flying a jet seems to
be making things happen against a set of rules (SID/STAR/Route plan)
altitude, speed, direction, glideslope etc. I don't imagine any of that is
important if the aim is to crash into a large object.

One final thought. I have been using this software for about nine months and
to get to my current competence (I generally end up where I want to be
without crashing, having almost followed the rules) it has required a huge
amount of time, and help from more experienced people like BCA03. I am not
sure that joining a simming community would be high on the terrorists list
of things to do, but who knows.

Regards

Geoff





"BCA03" > wrote in message
...
>
> "The original Russ." > wrote in message
> ...
> > ROFL!
> >
> > Goodness me. I've been lucky enough over the years to have spent time in
> the
> > jump seat on a few commercial flights during takeoffs and landings.
> >
> > I can honesty say that anyone without proper flight training in a real
> > aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't know which way to turn in an
> actual
> > commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone know how to fly the friggin thing
> > with enough accuracy to hit a building!!!
> >
> > When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Russ.
>
> Oh I dont know Russ. If we are speaking about the kind of terrorist
> atrocities carried out on 9/11, all they had to be able to do was some
basic
> navigation and control the speed and altitude of the craft. If they knew
how
> to use the A/P and programme the FMC it wouldnt have been too hard to get
to
> the Towers. And remember, we are speaking about two of the tallest
buildings
> around at the time, not some backyard outhouse.
>
> If we are speaking about a Simmer jumping into the LH seat and being able
to
> take off, or control the thing in the air, then I agree that most would be
> lost. However there are simmers who take it that stage further. The one
time
> I got up front for a landing, I wouldnt say I was particularly
knowldgable,
> but I did know what all the main bits were and how they worked. Since that
> time I have learned a hell of a lot more, to the point that now I could
sit
> in the thingypit of a 747 and pretty much know what everything did. It
helps
> that I have had a couple of lessons from a RL 747 pilot of course, but
even
> he is impressed at just how well the PSS 747 resembles the real thing. I
> would also feel comfortable in the 737-400 series, and soon probably the
> NG700's, and there are probably lots of simmers who know a lot more than I
> do.
>
> To say that FS2xxx can be used to help terrorists with nefarious
intentions
> is probably true. To suggest that there are armies of them out there using
> it for some long term doomsday scenario would probably be false, at least
I
> hope it is ;-)
>
> The VA that I fly for has 3 or 4 RL pilots (Jets not Props), and to a man
> they all agree that flying Jets in FS can be harder than the real thing.
> Whether its because FS doesnt have the feel that sitting in a moving
object
> does, or the lack of peripheral vision, or even the fact that a lot of the
> Jets in FS are difficult to trim for straight and level is neither here
nor
> there, but if I can follow a 10DME Arc in FS, or make a 7DME tear drop
> approach and line up perfect, or even land on two engines in the PSS747
with
> a stiff crosswind in FS, then I would have more idea in the real thing
than
> most passengers.
>
> I agree that it is a tired old story, but I dont agree that "anyone
without
> proper flight training in a real aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't
> know which way to turn in an actual commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone
> know how to fly the friggin thing with enough accuracy to hit a building"
>
> Now, if you had said "most people" instead of "anyone", we would be in
> agreement <g>
>
> Rgds,
>
> Chris J
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dave Pearson > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > >
> >
>
<URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_
> > np.html>
> > > And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will
> be
> > a
> > > regular feature from now on? <sigh>
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dave Pearson
> > > http://www.davep.org/
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[BCA03]

"Handsome" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Pearson" > wrote in message
> .. .
> |
>
<URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_
> np.html>
> | And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will
be
> a
> | regular feature from now on? <sigh>
> |
> | --
> | Dave Pearson
> | http://www.davep.org/
>
> Here's something I found surprising from RC Simulations (Bristol) Terms
and
> Conditions for booking their flight sim.
>
> 4) Following the events of September 11th and subsequent threat of
terrorist
> attacks, any form of suspicious behaviour will be noted. Authorities will
be
> informed and the session will be terminated immediately without refund at
> our discretion. All users of our facilities must produce photographic
> identification upon arrival to prove your indentity and address.
>
>


Hello Martin,

I laughed when I read that too, wondering if Bob was saying it to make out
his Simulator is close to a 'real' simulator. Then I wondered just how often
the average Joe got anywhere near a terrorist and hadn't realised it. For me
it is two or three times possibly, so maybe Bob has something, or maybe he
says it to *pacify* people like the author of the piece that started this
thread. And/or for all those people whose glass is always half empty and
never half full.

That RC Simulator doesn't look too bad actually.To whit, a few of us from
the VA have been thinking about spending a day there or so. Certainly the
rates seem reasonable, and if we do give it a whirl, I will file a debrief
to this very group.

Rgds,

Chris J

[BCA03]

Hi and thanks Geoff.

I mentioned a similar story that appeared in the Sun some time ago, and at
least one person here pooh poohed the idea ( of the story appearing in the
Sun, not the idea of terrorists using FS for their own twisted ends ) so I
was mildly pleased that the story had appeared again, albeit in a different
guise. The premise was much the same though. Personally my own comment to
this author would be to accuse him of " statin' the bleedin' obvious " (
with apologies to the Python gang )

Lets take it a step further. I wonder how many Train company owner/managers
had to change their underwear when they heard that Microsoft were bringing
out a Train simulator. Do you suppose they fired off memo's to their drivers
warning them to keep their doors locked at all times just in case. It's a
silly idea of course, but what if it ever happens ? The same questions would
arise again, and hacks the World over will use it to fill a few column
inches when they cant be arsed to go out and do some real journalism.

I think the fact is that 9/11 would have happened whether or not FS had been
written. The only people who know if it played any part are probably dead
now, so the rest of us can never know, and we shouldn't really be worried
too much by it.

Rgds,

Chris J


"GeoffC" > wrote in message
...
> Chris,
>
> Yet again I will have to agree with you about the PSS realism. I know
it's
> not all there but it does allow you to experience a large amount of the
> procedures. Having sat in on a couple of the training sessions that you
> refer to with a RL pilot it certainly reinforces that view.
>
> It also looks like the real thing as far as I can seen from photos of
actual
> aircraft.
>
> With regard to real pilots taking a long to gain high levels of competence
> that is true. However I guess they spend most of their time learning what
> to do when things go wrong. You don't really need that part of the
training
> if you are a terrorist.
>
> From a terrorist perspective they let the real pilot do all the difficult
> stuff at the airport and takeoff, then try and take control. Once
airborne,
> plenty of power and the EADI the right way up and it will most likely stay
> in the air.
>
> Even from my simming experience the difficult part of flying a jet seems
to
> be making things happen against a set of rules (SID/STAR/Route plan)
> altitude, speed, direction, glideslope etc. I don't imagine any of that
is
> important if the aim is to crash into a large object.
>
> One final thought. I have been using this software for about nine months
and
> to get to my current competence (I generally end up where I want to be
> without crashing, having almost followed the rules) it has required a huge
> amount of time, and help from more experienced people like BCA03. I am
not
> sure that joining a simming community would be high on the terrorists list
> of things to do, but who knows.
>
> Regards
>
> Geoff
>
>
>
>
>
> "BCA03" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "The original Russ." > wrote in
message
> > ...
> > > ROFL!
> > >
> > > Goodness me. I've been lucky enough over the years to have spent time
in
> > the
> > > jump seat on a few commercial flights during takeoffs and landings.
> > >
> > > I can honesty say that anyone without proper flight training in a real
> > > aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't know which way to turn in an
> > actual
> > > commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone know how to fly the friggin
thing
> > > with enough accuracy to hit a building!!!
> > >
> > > When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Russ.
> >
> > Oh I dont know Russ. If we are speaking about the kind of terrorist
> > atrocities carried out on 9/11, all they had to be able to do was some
> basic
> > navigation and control the speed and altitude of the craft. If they knew
> how
> > to use the A/P and programme the FMC it wouldnt have been too hard to
get
> to
> > the Towers. And remember, we are speaking about two of the tallest
> buildings
> > around at the time, not some backyard outhouse.
> >
> > If we are speaking about a Simmer jumping into the LH seat and being
able
> to
> > take off, or control the thing in the air, then I agree that most would
be
> > lost. However there are simmers who take it that stage further. The one
> time
> > I got up front for a landing, I wouldnt say I was particularly
> knowldgable,
> > but I did know what all the main bits were and how they worked. Since
that
> > time I have learned a hell of a lot more, to the point that now I could
> sit
> > in the thingypit of a 747 and pretty much know what everything did. It
> helps
> > that I have had a couple of lessons from a RL 747 pilot of course, but
> even
> > he is impressed at just how well the PSS 747 resembles the real thing. I
> > would also feel comfortable in the 737-400 series, and soon probably the
> > NG700's, and there are probably lots of simmers who know a lot more than
I
> > do.
> >
> > To say that FS2xxx can be used to help terrorists with nefarious
> intentions
> > is probably true. To suggest that there are armies of them out there
using
> > it for some long term doomsday scenario would probably be false, at
least
> I
> > hope it is ;-)
> >
> > The VA that I fly for has 3 or 4 RL pilots (Jets not Props), and to a
man
> > they all agree that flying Jets in FS can be harder than the real thing.
> > Whether its because FS doesnt have the feel that sitting in a moving
> object
> > does, or the lack of peripheral vision, or even the fact that a lot of
the
> > Jets in FS are difficult to trim for straight and level is neither here
> nor
> > there, but if I can follow a 10DME Arc in FS, or make a 7DME tear drop
> > approach and line up perfect, or even land on two engines in the PSS747
> with
> > a stiff crosswind in FS, then I would have more idea in the real thing
> than
> > most passengers.
> >
> > I agree that it is a tired old story, but I dont agree that "anyone
> without
> > proper flight training in a real aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't
> > know which way to turn in an actual commercial airliner cockpit. Let
alone
> > know how to fly the friggin thing with enough accuracy to hit a
building"
> >
> > Now, if you had said "most people" instead of "anyone", we would be in
> > agreement <g>
> >
> > Rgds,
> >
> > Chris J
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Dave Pearson > wrote in message
> > > .. .
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
<URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_
> > > np.html>
> > > > And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this
will
> > be
> > > a
> > > > regular feature from now on? <sigh>
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dave Pearson
> > > > http://www.davep.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Handsome]

"BCA03" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Handsome" > wrote in message
| ...
| >
| > "Dave Pearson" > wrote in message
| > .. .
| > |
| >
|
<URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_
| > np.html>
| > | And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will
| be
| > a
| > | regular feature from now on? <sigh>
| > |
| > | --
| > | Dave Pearson
| > | http://www.davep.org/
| >
| > Here's something I found surprising from RC Simulations (Bristol) Terms
| and
| > Conditions for booking their flight sim.
| >
| > 4) Following the events of September 11th and subsequent threat of
| terrorist
| > attacks, any form of suspicious behaviour will be noted. Authorities
will
| be
| > informed and the session will be terminated immediately without refund
at
| > our discretion. All users of our facilities must produce photographic
| > identification upon arrival to prove your indentity and address.
| >
| >
|
|
| Hello Martin,
|
| I laughed when I read that too, wondering if Bob was saying it to make out
| his Simulator is close to a 'real' simulator. Then I wondered just how
often
| the average Joe got anywhere near a terrorist and hadn't realised it. For
me
| it is two or three times possibly, so maybe Bob has something, or maybe he
| says it to *pacify* people like the author of the piece that started this
| thread. And/or for all those people whose glass is always half empty and
| never half full.
|
| That RC Simulator doesn't look too bad actually.To whit, a few of us from
| the VA have been thinking about spending a day there or so. Certainly the
| rates seem reasonable, and if we do give it a whirl, I will file a debrief
| to this very group.
|
| Rgds,
|
| Chris J

What will you take Chris ?

Passport or bus pass :-)

[BCA03]

"Handsome" > wrote in message
...
>
> "BCA03" > wrote in message
> ...
> |
> | "Handsome" > wrote in message
> | ...
> | >
> | > "Dave Pearson" > wrote in message
> | > .. .
> | > |
> | >
> |
>
<URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/07/23/flightsim_terrorism/index_
> | > np.html>
> | > | And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this
will
> | be
> | > a
> | > | regular feature from now on? <sigh>
> | > |
> | > | --
> | > | Dave Pearson
> | > | http://www.davep.org/
> | >
> | > Here's something I found surprising from RC Simulations (Bristol)
Terms
> | and
> | > Conditions for booking their flight sim.
> | >
> | > 4) Following the events of September 11th and subsequent threat of
> | terrorist
> | > attacks, any form of suspicious behaviour will be noted. Authorities
> will
> | be
> | > informed and the session will be terminated immediately without refund
> at
> | > our discretion. All users of our facilities must produce photographic
> | > identification upon arrival to prove your indentity and address.
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
> | Hello Martin,
> |
> | I laughed when I read that too, wondering if Bob was saying it to make
out
> | his Simulator is close to a 'real' simulator. Then I wondered just how
> often
> | the average Joe got anywhere near a terrorist and hadn't realised it.
For
> me
> | it is two or three times possibly, so maybe Bob has something, or maybe
he
> | says it to *pacify* people like the author of the piece that started
this
> | thread. And/or for all those people whose glass is always half empty and
> | never half full.
> |
> | That RC Simulator doesn't look too bad actually.To whit, a few of us
from
> | the VA have been thinking about spending a day there or so. Certainly
the
> | rates seem reasonable, and if we do give it a whirl, I will file a
debrief
> | to this very group.
> |
> | Rgds,
> |
> | Chris J
>
> What will you take Chris ?
>
> Passport or bus pass :-)
>
>

LOL, not the P1ss, that's for sure. ;-))

How real do you want your simulator to be ? when you have to turn up with
your passport to board it <vbg>

Cheers,

Chris J

[Boudewijn van Ingen]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 08:50:31 -0500, "Ed Medlin" >
wrote:

>"Poul Haig" > wrote in message
k...
>> I dont know what happent to my last post, ending tekst..
>>
>> My point is, Microsoft Flight simulator is not to blame for anything
>> other than being a good computer game, the above product is properly more
>> likely to be the terrorists first choice.
>>
>> The hole issue/link Microsoft Flightsimulator= terrorist traning tool
>> is crap.
>>
>> Ph.
>>
>I have been using MSFS for many years. A while back I began real flying
>lessons. The main advantage I had gained from FS is that I knew what all the
>gauges were, knew ATC (somewhat), and knew basic navigation. As far as
>"hands-on" flying goes, I was just like any other student. Actually, flying
>a SE AC to me was actually easier in real life than with MSFS IMO. The seat
>of the pants feel you get in the real thing gives you a much better idea of
>what the AC is doing than sitting at a desk. The terrorists did have flight
>school, and knew what the control surfaces do, so once off the ground it
>doesn't take a rocket scientist to point any AC to a heading and do what
>they did. To say that MSFS is a terrorist tool is nuts. My letter to the
>editor is sent...........

And note that apparently, the actual terrorists that were involved in
the 9-11 attacks did not even own or use MSFS. I suspect they were not
even aware of the possible advantages of "training" their mission in
it...

Just like most kids that go on a killing-spree in some highschool are
not the same people who play Quake/Unreal/Battlefield 1942/etc/etc....

In general, I believe that people that really know how to utilize
'simulators' appreciate the fact that they would actually *DIE* very
often, in the virtual world...


--
Groeten,
Boudewijn.

[Jeff Shirton]

"H M" > wrote in message
...

> > In general, I believe that people that really know how to utilize
> > 'simulators' appreciate the fact that they would actually *DIE* very
> > often, in the virtual world...
>
> funny, i thought people could die only once :-)

It's like that old joke.... "In the United States, a woman gets
pregnant every 18 minutes..." with a by-stander replying,
"Someone get her a condom!"

[John Ward]

Hi Jeff,

Or invite her to emigrate! :-)

Regards,
John
"Jeff Shirton" > wrote in message
...
> "H M" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > > In general, I believe that people that really know how to utilize
> > > 'simulators' appreciate the fact that they would actually *DIE* very
> > > often, in the virtual world...
> >
> > funny, i thought people could die only once :-)
>
> It's like that old joke.... "In the United States, a woman gets
> pregnant every 18 minutes..." with a by-stander replying,
> "Someone get her a condom!"
>
>
>