Glider rental insurance

[David Reed[_2_]]

1. I am being asked at an FBO in Colorado to provide my own insurance to
fly their gliders. I used to fly powered at several CO FBOs - the question
never came up. Are things different for gliders?

2. What is the best company to get insurance for gliders only?

Thanks

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 2:15:06 PM UTC-5, David Reed wrote:
> 1. I am being asked at an FBO in Colorado to provide my own insurance to
> fly their gliders. I used to fly powered at several CO FBOs - the question
> never came up. Are things different for gliders?
>
> 2. What is the best company to get insurance for gliders only?
>
> Thanks

Most power rental places want renter's insurance. The FBO insurance is good for the FBO but their insurance company will go after you to get their money back. I would not consider flying rented aircraft without a renter's insurance.

[Sean Franke]

On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 3:30:38 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 2:15:06 PM UTC-5, David Reed wrote:
> > 1. I am being asked at an FBO in Colorado to provide my own insurance to
> > fly their gliders. I used to fly powered at several CO FBOs - the question
> > never came up. Are things different for gliders?
> >
> > 2. What is the best company to get insurance for gliders only?
> >
> > Thanks
>
> Most power rental places want renter's insurance. The FBO insurance is good for the FBO but their insurance company will go after you to get their money back. I would not consider flying rented aircraft without a renter's insurance.

I believe the term is subrogation.

Sean Franke

[Frank Whiteley]

On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 12:15:06 PM UTC-7, David Reed wrote:
> 1. I am being asked at an FBO in Colorado to provide my own insurance to
> fly their gliders. I used to fly powered at several CO FBOs - the question
> never came up. Are things different for gliders?
>
> 2. What is the best company to get insurance for gliders only?
>
> Thanks

http://gliderinsurance.com/GliderHome.htm

See Renters/Borrowers

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 11:15:06 AM UTC-8, David Reed wrote:
> 1. I am being asked at an FBO in Colorado to provide my own insurance to
> fly their gliders. I used to fly powered at several CO FBOs - the question
> never came up. Are things different for gliders?
>
> 2. What is the best company to get insurance for gliders only?
>
> Thanks

Generally speaking, most rental fleets in the soaring community require the renter-pilot to be responsible for any damage that is done while you have it. The cost of renter's insurance seems to be getting more expensive these days but I guarantee you, should you happen to damage the canopy by mistakingly pulling the jetison levers instead of the opening levers II must admit, I did that) YOU WILL BE VERY GLAD YOU ONLY SPENT $600/yr for rental insurance.

[Brian[_1_]]

I have a policy with Avemco, but I got it more for CFI insurance which is an add on option on some non-owned policies.
I think I looked into Costello, AOPA and Avemco. But the fact that Avemco covered gliders as was competitive on price was a selling point for me.

Brian

[[email protected]]

So what limits does everyone have? Enough to cover FBO's deductible, or to cover replacement cost of glider?

[Sean Franke]

On Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 9:37:53 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> So what limits does everyone have? Enough to cover FBO's deductible, or to cover replacement cost of glider?

It would have to be replacement cost of the glider. The FBO's insurance company would pay the FBO less their deductible then go after the renter. FBO's deductible is usually a small portion of the total loss.

Sean Franke

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 9:37:53 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> So what limits does everyone have? Enough to cover FBO's deductible, or to cover replacement cost of glider?

Well, you need to as the flight school or rental office. They may tell you that to fly the PW5 you need $25,000 hull but if you want to fly the Duo Discus, we want $70,000 or whatever. I guess what I'm saying is to insure only what you intend to fly.

[Bob Kuykendall]

One thing to watch for is that many renter's policies only cover type-certificated aircraft. So if you borrow and bend a friend's ASW20, you might not be covered.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 3:37:15 PM UTC-5, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> One thing to watch for is that many renter's policies only cover type-certificated aircraft. So if you borrow and bend a friend's ASW20, you might not be covered.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Ummm..... there is a "type certificate" to fly a ASW-20?
While it's not an issue for me, but (general question) are there "sign-off's" for various gliders/sailplanes?
I could "maybe see" a sign-off for "complex" (flaps, retractable gear) in sailplanes..... but ummmmm..... not really?

[[email protected]]

On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 12:37:15 PM UTC-8, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> One thing to watch for is that many renter's policies only cover type-certificated aircraft. So if you borrow and bend a friend's ASW20, you might not be covered.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Not Type but category and class. Type ratings usually start at 12,500 pounds Gross Weight

[Bill T]

Not so much TCDS, as most any glider will have those. It defines how they can get their airworthy cert in the US. Either Experimental or standard.
Most "renters insurance " for airplanes, will not cover experimental aircraft. So you want to make sure that the renters insurance will cover what you want to fly.

Dealing with gliders, it may be best to deal with a broker that is experienced with gliders, standard and experimental certified.

BillT

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

The bigger issue, it strikes me, is liability. Paying for damage to a rented glider isn't the end of the world. If someone gets hurt, you're on the hook for millions. If anyone has info on this aspect of retner's insurance I'm curious to hear it.
John Cochrane

[richard wilkening]

I noticed that in the Avemco Policy so I called them and they quickly offered to put a rider on the policy allowing Experimental gliders. I didn't ask about Experimental Airplanes.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 2:43:06 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 12:37:15 PM UTC-8, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> > One thing to watch for is that many renter's policies only cover type-certificated aircraft. So if you borrow and bend a friend's ASW20, you might not be covered.
> >
> > Thanks, Bob K.
>
> Not Type but category and class. Type ratings usually start at 12,500 pounds Gross Weight

No, the issue I refer to is one of type certification. As I noted, many if not most renter's policies only cover type-certificated aircraft with standard airworthiness certificates. These policies do not cover aircraft that carry special airworthiness certificates issued for the purpose of operating an experimental, racing or experimental, amateur-built aircraft.

Since many imported European sailplanes in the US, including all imported ASW20s, are licensed as experimental, racing or experimental, exhibition, it is often the case that these aircraft are not covered by renter's policies.. Bottom line, talk to the agent or read the fine print to understand what is and what is not covered.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 1:49:22 PM UTC-8, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 3:37:15 PM UTC-5, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> > One thing to watch for is that many renter's policies only cover type-certificated aircraft. So if you borrow and bend a friend's ASW20, you might not be covered.
> >
> > Thanks, Bob K.
>
> Ummm..... there is a "type certificate" to fly a ASW-20?
> While it's not an issue for me, but (general question) are there "sign-off's" for various gliders/sailplanes?
> I could "maybe see" a sign-off for "complex" (flaps, retractable gear) in sailplanes..... but ummmmm..... not really?

In the US, Aircraft without type certificates generally operate under Special Airworthiness Certificates issued for the operation of an experimental aircraft. The certificate is accompanied with a list of operating limitations that describe how and where the aircraft can be used.

Last I checked, all of the ASW20 operating in the US do so under experimental, racing or experimental, exhibition Special Airworthiness Certificates.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 1:40:34 PM UTC-5, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 2:43:06 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 12:37:15 PM UTC-8, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> > > One thing to watch for is that many renter's policies only cover type-certificated aircraft. So if you borrow and bend a friend's ASW20, you might not be covered.
> > >
> > > Thanks, Bob K.
> >
> > Not Type but category and class. Type ratings usually start at 12,500 pounds Gross Weight
>
> No, the issue I refer to is one of type certification. As I noted, many if not most renter's policies only cover type-certificated aircraft with standard airworthiness certificates. These policies do not cover aircraft that carry special airworthiness certificates issued for the purpose of operating an experimental, racing or experimental, amateur-built aircraft.
>
> Since many imported European sailplanes in the US, including all imported ASW20s, are licensed as experimental, racing or experimental, exhibition, it is often the case that these aircraft are not covered by renter's policies. Bottom line, talk to the agent or read the fine print to understand what is and what is not covered.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Ahhhh.... gotcha..... thanks for the clarification. ;-)

[Cookie]

Here's the scam in "renter's insurance" IMO....

The commercial operator pays the insurance premium....this protects the commercial operator against "loss" (of their glider). The premium is based on the value of the glider, and the "odds" of it getting damaged...


Now I come along as a "renter" and I'm required to purchase my own insurance, on a glider which is already insured! My renters insurance is not to protect the owner against loss....It is to protect me...against the operators insurance company!!! And guess what, I'm probably gonna get my renters policy from the exact same insurance company...So that insurance company is covering me, from being sued by them! This is the exact same extortion method the Mafia uses when it charges "protection money" from businesses...

Now...lets say that commercial operator has 100 "renters" each paying their own premium in addition to the original premium....

Now the insurance company is collecting 101 premiums ...on one single glider! Nice deal if you can get it!

Now let's look at a glider club...with 100 members...that club will pay only one premium on their glider....not 100 premiums...and the glider is "covered" no matter who is flying it, as long as they are a "club member"..

Let's look at a single private owner...he pays the one premium...he can
"list" pilots who are able to fly his glider and they are covered without having to pay a separate premium....or on some policies it is "open pilot" which means ANY (qualified) pilot can fly that glider...

A "renter" should not have to be in constant fear of being sued by the operator's insurance company...and should not have to pay "protection money" to that company...

The operator should "figure in" insurance costs and pass that on...built into the rental fee...

A renter could be held responsible for any "deductible" not recoverable by the operator...but this is typically in the $200 to $500 range and no insurance is required to cover that...

LOL..OK.....There...I said it....now all you insurance "experts" out there....tell me where I'm wrong!

Cookie











On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 2:43:04 AM UTC-5, gotovkotzepkoi wrote:
> 'David Reed[_2_ Wrote:
> > ;896867']1. I am being asked at an FBO in Colorado to provide my own
> > insurance to
> > fly their gliders. I used to fly powered at several CO FBOs - the
> > question
> > never came up. Are things different for gliders?
> >
> > 2. What is the best company to get insurance for gliders only?
> >
> > Thanks
>
> All insurance is a scam: health, home owner, car, airplane - all of it.
> I have flown rental gliders and simply left the operation a blank check
> to cover any damages incurred. I'd rather run the risk than blow the
> money for something the likelihood of which is virtually zero.
>
>
>
>
> --
> gotovkotzepkoi

[BobW]

On 2/16/2015 5:37 AM, Cookie wrote:
> Here's the scam in "renter's insurance" IMO....
>
> The commercial operator pays the insurance premium....this protects the
> commercial operator against "loss" (of their glider). The premium is based
> on the value of the glider, and the "odds" of it getting damaged...
>
>
> Now I come along as a "renter" and I'm required to purchase my own
> insurance, on a glider which is already insured! My renters insurance is
> not to protect the owner against loss....It is to protect me...against the
> operators insurance company!!! And guess what, I'm probably gonna get my
> renters policy from the exact same insurance company...So that insurance
> company is covering me, from being sued by them! This is the exact same
> extortion method the Mafia uses when it charges "protection money" from
> businesses...
>
> Now...lets say that commercial operator has 100 "renters" each paying their
> own premium in addition to the original premium....
>
> Now the insurance company is collecting 101 premiums ...on one single
> glider! Nice deal if you can get it!
>
> Now let's look at a glider club...with 100 members...that club will pay
> only one premium on their glider....not 100 premiums...and the glider is
> "covered" no matter who is flying it, as long as they are a "club
> member"..
>
> Let's look at a single private owner...he pays the one premium...he can
> "list" pilots who are able to fly his glider and they are covered without
> having to pay a separate premium....or on some policies it is "open pilot"
> which means ANY (qualified) pilot can fly that glider...
>
> A "renter" should not have to be in constant fear of being sued by the
> operator's insurance company...and should not have to pay "protection
> money" to that company...
>
> The operator should "figure in" insurance costs and pass that on...built
> into the rental fee...
>
> A renter could be held responsible for any "deductible" not recoverable by
> the operator...but this is typically in the $200 to $500 range and no
> insurance is required to cover that...
>
> LOL..OK.....There...I said it....now all you insurance "experts" out
> there...tell me where I'm wrong!
>
> Cookie
>
> On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 2:43:04 AM UTC-5, gotovkotzepkoi wrote:
>> 'David Reed[_2_ Wrote:
>>> ;896867']1. I am being asked at an FBO in Colorado to provide my own
>>> insurance to fly their gliders. I used to fly powered at several CO
>>> FBOs - the question never came up. Are things different for gliders?
>>>
>>> 2. What is the best company to get insurance for gliders only?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>
>> All insurance is a scam: health, home owner, car, airplane - all of it. I
>> have flown rental gliders and simply left the operation a blank check to
>> cover any damages incurred. I'd rather run the risk than blow the money
>> for something the likelihood of which is virtually zero.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- gotovkotzepkoi
>

Yeah, we're drifting away from the original question, topically speaking, but
it originally *was* a soaring-related question, insurance certainly has
potential to launch soaring blood pressure (particularly government-mandated
coverage, as - e.g. in the U.S. - health, vehicle), and it remains winter in
the northern hemisphere, so why not? :-)

Insurance can be - judging from numerous insurance-company-erected skyscrapers
in the U.S. - a great business. It would probably be nearly as great if it
were populated entirely by honest and upright purveyors, with keen
sensitivities to avoiding customer perceptions of: company-advantageous hair
splitting, conflicts of interest, ill-will, etc.

The situation Cookie describes above exists in the housing rental market too,
though generally without the bonus of multiple customers paying premiums
against risk to any single dwelling. So far as I can tell, the only reason it
doesn't exist in the auto insurance market is (irony of ironies) the market
contains too many irresponsible (not a prayer of paying up) potential targets;
in the auto coverage market, the U.S. industry tactic is to legally mandate
coverage, thereby specifically targeting "generally responsible" people. The
approach doesn't seem to limit industry purveyor rates.

Having in the past 4 years had occasion to interact with 3 different ("big
name" and hence presumably reputable) companies over losses in the automobile
(double-digit-offending irresponsible drunkard) and housing coverage markets
(rental and primary), the auto underwriter undervalued a totaled vehicle by
~$3k (as measured using their self-selected data sources), and both
rental/primary dwelling companies have a distinct conflict of interest
relationship with their "approved contractors" (which appears to be endemic to
the industry), while the former left us only ~$10k out-of-pocket after a
renter-induced fire of ~$110k reconstruction value. My blood pressure had some
great soaring flights.

May your futures include only premium payments!

YMMV,
Bob W.