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Six-Seven Romeo
February 16th 15, 08:46 PM
Forgive me if this should go to an R/C blog instead of RAS but I think that there are many glider drivers that like flying drones.

The Chicago Tribune ran an article today on the FAA's proposed rules for the "use of commercial drones". The full text is below. Highlights for operators are;

> A person flying a small drone would have to be at least 17 years old.
> Must pass an aeronautical knowledge test every two years.
> Must obtain an FAA certificate.
> Would not need a private pilot's license nor be required to undergo medical testing.
> The operation of drones would be limited to visual line-of-sight operations. > drones that weigh 55 pounds or less and are conducting non-recreational operations.
> Limited to daylight, to altitudes of 500 feet and to speeds of 100 mph.
> Cannot be flown near airports, or in restricted airspace, unless air traffic controllers gave permission.
> Prohibit drone operators from delivering packages or cargo for a fee.

The next sentence I then read I found very interesting, "The new rules would not apply to model aircraft, which officials said have their own set of rules." In FAA-speak "aircraft" of course includes helicopters. So if I were to slap an AMA number of the side of my drone and call it a helicopter, can I ignore FAA rules? How does a helicopter differ from a drone? The tail rotor? Is it the commercial angle that is the issue at hand? I.E. that (AMA?) rules governing R/C models don't allow commercial use? Is there a set of RAA rules for R/C models?

Expiring minds want to know.

- John

PS The picture accompanying the article shows a drone with tail number N544L registering an INSTANTEYE MK-2 to SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC SEMPRA ENERGY. http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=544L

===============
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-faa-commercial-drone-rules-20150215-story.html

FAA proposes rules for use of commercial drones

Federal officials unveiled new proposed rules Sunday for the operation of small commercial drones, opening the skies to greater use of unmanned aircraft to perform tasks including inspecting bridges, assisting in search-and-rescue operations, taking aerial photos of real estate and shooting scenes for movies and television.

In announcing the proposal, Federal Aviation Administration chief Michael Huerta said he expects commercial drones will "dramatically change the way we use our nation's airspace."

Huerta, in a conference call with reporters, said drones -- formally known as unmanned aircraft systems -- will in some cases be able to perform tasks with less risk than manned aircraft, which he noted may be forced to fly in dangerous terrain or bad weather.

The proposed rules would apply to drones that weigh 55 pounds or less and are conducting non-recreational operations.

Such flights would be limited to daylight, to altitudes of 500 feet and to speeds of 100 mph. The maximum altitude is intended to keep drones away from manned flights that usually are flying at higher altitudes, Huerta said.

Drones would not be permitted to fly over people, except those directly involved with the flight. Nor could they be flown near airports, or in restricted airspace, unless air traffic controllers gave permission, Huerta said.

"Safety is always our No. 1 priority," he said.

The FAA authorized testing of drones at six sites around the country in December 2013 and is working to integrate drones in the national airspace.

Huerta described a host of tasks drones could perform, including inspecting utility towers, antennae, power line and pipelines, especially in hilly or mountainous terrain, and monitoring crops, supporting wildlife conservation and assisting news-gathering organizations.

Importantly, though, the proposed rules would prohibit drone operators from delivering packages or cargo for a fee and from dropping objects from drones, though the aircraft could carry cargo for research and development purposes.

Official said the rules are intended to minimize risk to other aircraft and people and property on the ground.

Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx, whose department oversees the FAA, applauded the new rules. "Technology is advancing at an unprecedented pace and this milestone allows federal regulations and the use of our national airspace to evolve to safely accommodate innovation," he said in a statement.

The operation of drones would be limited to visual line-of-sight operations.. The rules would allow, but not require, a drone operator to work with someone who would maintain constant visual contact with the aircraft. The operator would otherwise need to be able to see the drone with unaided vision, except for glasses.

Under the proposed rules, a person flying a small drone would have to be at least 17 years old, pass an aeronautical knowledge test and obtain an FAA certificate. The knowledge test would be required every two years.

The operator, however, would not need a private pilot's license nor be required to undergo medical testing as pilots do.

Huerta said there would be no limit to the number of flights that could be conducted in a day.

The new rules would not apply to model aircraft, which officials said have their own set of rules. The FAA also is considering whether it should create separate rules for unmanned aerial systems weighing less than 4.4 pounds, Huerta said.

The public has 60 days to comment on the proposed rules.

An industry group, the Assn. for Unmanned Vehicle Systems International, welcomed the proposed rules but said they were "long overdue."

Technology "has largely remained grounded while many prospective users wait for the regulatory framework to catch up," said Brian Wynne, president and CEO of the group, a nonprofit that advances unmanned systems and robots.

The Arlington, Va., group said it has more than 7,500 members who work in the defense, civil and commercial markets.

The White House also addressed drones Sunday in a presidential memo about safeguarding privacy, civil rights and civil liberties protections with respect to the federal government's use of drones in the national airspace. The White House said it will work with stakeholders to develop similar standards for private and commercial drone use.

Last month, a small drone crashed into the White House lawn, prompting a lockdown. The president was out of the country at the time.

Martin Gregorie[_5_]
February 16th 15, 09:25 PM
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 12:46:46 -0800, Six-Seven Romeo wrote:

> Forgive me if this should go to an R/C blog instead of RAS but I think
> that there are many glider drivers that like flying drones.
>
here's nothing unusual in the FAA thinking. Read this:

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?
catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=5631

This is a link to CAP658, which contains the Air Navigation Orders
covering model aircraft flying in the UK. I think you'll find that the
AMA/FAA thinking is pretty close to it. Note in particular that there's
an absolute prohibition on flying out of direct line of sight and that
this specifically requires an observer if the pilot is using FPV and that
use of binoculars to extend visual range is forbidden. Also that using a
model aircraft for air work is forbidden: if you want to use any size of
aircraft for commercial and/or paid work then the aircraft needs type
approval and regular inspection and the operator needs a license.

Speaking as an ex-aeromodeller I couldn't approve more: the last thing I
wanted was for some unqualified idiots with more money than sense or
skill to mess up my sport.

Do you really want to be tarred with the same brush as:

- that fool who shot his drone up to 3000 ft smack through his local CTR
and then posted the video on YouTube. And acted all hurt when the FAA
threw the book at him.

- a recent video of a FPV drone flyer screaming round, through and under
trees, bushes and climbing frames etc in a kids playground. Another
idiot. With his head in an FPV mask and fixated on controlling the
drone you really think he's going to see an approaching kid or two
before he hits them?

- the plonker who hit the White House while flying a borrowed drone at
night while, according to some sources, not entirely sober?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Bill T
February 16th 15, 11:02 PM
The U.S. FAA proposal keeps commercial / public operations UAS (drone) below 500ft AGL and more than 5 miles from airports.
This should effectively keep them separated from "full scale" piloted aircraft. It would also instill some required knowledge base of operations, rules and regulations, and keep the UAS from overhead of "non participating" humanoids.

Private "modeler" RC operations for fixed wing, glider, and Helo's are expected to follow the guidelines of the AMA. The problems are these new self stabilized gyro copter RC aircraft are often flown by amateurs who have no knowledge of the AMA, their guidelines and insurance coverage options.

BillT

February 16th 15, 11:17 PM
The FAA and AMA guidelines are laughably worthless. No one takes flying model aircraft/drones seriously with regards to public safety. They are flown all the time in parks with lots of people around who could be seriously hurt. The park rangers don't care. If you approach the pilot they just berate you and tell you to mind your own business.
In my city there are three airports who's five mile circles all intersect and involve the complete metropolitan area. Drones and RC aircraft are flying all the time.
No one enforces the dog leash laws so why on earth will they care about model aircraft?

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
February 16th 15, 11:33 PM
Hmmmm....... I wonder if having a private pilot certificate (any class/type) covers the need to fly a drone?

It's sorta time that something is done about these, I agree that it's been a "grey area" on how to handle the new crop of drones.
I'm not sure I want some "low time" person flying a 55lb drone anywhere near me!

Bruce Hoult
February 16th 15, 11:58 PM
On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 12:33:52 PM UTC+13, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Hmmmm....... I wonder if having a private pilot certificate (any class/type) covers the need to fly a drone?

Yes.

There's nothing in the law about it, but in a practical sense a licensed pilot standing on the ground and monitoring the appropriate local radio frequency for other traffic (and announcing their model's/drone's position & intentions) should do a pretty defensable job of ensuring everyone's safety.

JJ Sinclair[_2_]
February 17th 15, 03:23 PM
Time for another JJ story.............I was on tow passing 1500 feet when I spotted another sailplane. It looked to be about a mile away, shortly thereafter the tow pilot kicked right rudder because the 'sailplane' I saw was headed right for us and was going to hit my left wing! I rolled 90 degrees left and just missed it. The 'sailplane' was an 8 foot model glider, the AMA was holding their sailplane nationals from the Siskiyou County Airport. The rules have changed since then and they should not be flying within 5 miles of an airport and not above 400 feet. These guys are serious cross country people. They set a task with maybe 3 turn-points and something like 15 miles total distance. The pilot follows along seated in the back of a pickup with a driver and a spotter. Who believes any pilot engaged in competition is going to stop climbing at 400 feet? I'm a modeler myself and enjoy our local clubs sailplane competition. Thirty second timed climb, looking for a 10 minute flight with a spot landing back at the field. Some rigs even have audio varios and altitude sent back to the pilot via telemetry.................no stopping the march of technology even in our hobbies.
Maybe the FAA should require all models, drones an helicopters to get a transponder squawking 1203 !
:>) JJ

lyle
February 17th 15, 03:37 PM
Hi John,

The difference between a model and a "drone" is that you cannot operate a model under AMA rules for anything but personal recreation. The new rules are there to allow commercial entities to legally fly. (Until the new rules come out, only unpaid amateurs could legally fly.) Until now it has been ironic: a well-funded company with trained aviators could not legally fly any for-profit sub-scale aircraft.

-Lyle


On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 3:46:48 PM UTC-5, Six-Seven Romeo wrote:
> Forgive me if this should go to an R/C blog instead of RAS but I think that there are many glider drivers that like flying drones.
>
> The Chicago Tribune ran an article today on the FAA's proposed rules for the "use of commercial drones". The full text is below. Highlights for operators are;
>
> > A person flying a small drone would have to be at least 17 years old.
> > Must pass an aeronautical knowledge test every two years.
> > Must obtain an FAA certificate.
> > Would not need a private pilot's license nor be required to undergo medical testing.
> > The operation of drones would be limited to visual line-of-sight operations. > drones that weigh 55 pounds or less and are conducting non-recreational operations.
> > Limited to daylight, to altitudes of 500 feet and to speeds of 100 mph.
> > Cannot be flown near airports, or in restricted airspace, unless air traffic controllers gave permission.
> > Prohibit drone operators from delivering packages or cargo for a fee.
>
> The next sentence I then read I found very interesting, "The new rules would not apply to model aircraft, which officials said have their own set of rules." In FAA-speak "aircraft" of course includes helicopters. So if I were to slap an AMA number of the side of my drone and call it a helicopter, can I ignore FAA rules? How does a helicopter differ from a drone? The tail rotor? Is it the commercial angle that is the issue at hand? I.E. that (AMA?) rules governing R/C models don't allow commercial use? Is there a set of RAA rules for R/C models?
>
> Expiring minds want to know.
>
> - John
>
> PS The picture accompanying the article shows a drone with tail number N544L registering an INSTANTEYE MK-2 to SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC SEMPRA ENERGY. http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=544L
>
> ===============
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-faa-commercial-drone-rules-20150215-story.html
>
> FAA proposes rules for use of commercial drones
>
> Federal officials unveiled new proposed rules Sunday for the operation of small commercial drones, opening the skies to greater use of unmanned aircraft to perform tasks including inspecting bridges, assisting in search-and-rescue operations, taking aerial photos of real estate and shooting scenes for movies and television.
>
> In announcing the proposal, Federal Aviation Administration chief Michael Huerta said he expects commercial drones will "dramatically change the way we use our nation's airspace."
>
> Huerta, in a conference call with reporters, said drones -- formally known as unmanned aircraft systems -- will in some cases be able to perform tasks with less risk than manned aircraft, which he noted may be forced to fly in dangerous terrain or bad weather.
>
> The proposed rules would apply to drones that weigh 55 pounds or less and are conducting non-recreational operations.
>
> Such flights would be limited to daylight, to altitudes of 500 feet and to speeds of 100 mph. The maximum altitude is intended to keep drones away from manned flights that usually are flying at higher altitudes, Huerta said..
>
> Drones would not be permitted to fly over people, except those directly involved with the flight. Nor could they be flown near airports, or in restricted airspace, unless air traffic controllers gave permission, Huerta said..
>
> "Safety is always our No. 1 priority," he said.
>
> The FAA authorized testing of drones at six sites around the country in December 2013 and is working to integrate drones in the national airspace.
>
> Huerta described a host of tasks drones could perform, including inspecting utility towers, antennae, power line and pipelines, especially in hilly or mountainous terrain, and monitoring crops, supporting wildlife conservation and assisting news-gathering organizations.
>
> Importantly, though, the proposed rules would prohibit drone operators from delivering packages or cargo for a fee and from dropping objects from drones, though the aircraft could carry cargo for research and development purposes.
>
> Official said the rules are intended to minimize risk to other aircraft and people and property on the ground.
>
> Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx, whose department oversees the FAA, applauded the new rules. "Technology is advancing at an unprecedented pace and this milestone allows federal regulations and the use of our national airspace to evolve to safely accommodate innovation," he said in a statement.

February 19th 15, 12:49 AM
The AMA CD should have coordinated an airport closure for the event and NOTAM issued for the airport and surrounding areas since they were doing some XC. I've been to several events where that works well. IMAA(defunct) Castle event is kind of an exception where the main airport remains open but NOTAM is still issued and airspace carefully controlled.

PBA
February 20th 15, 02:15 PM
The 500 ft rule is hard to enforce and hard for a pilot to self enforce without telemetry. I fly both models and full scale. I've been to a lot of meetups and the guys that are into the hobby year after year are really responsible. I would feel comfortable sharing a thermal with one of their monster 55 lb 10 meter ships. They know what they are doing and can avoid aircraft.. Flying with them in Maryland on the ridge we have shared thermals with hang gliders. Sailplanes passed high above. No problems. VFR traffic.

It's the people that buy the Chinese made foam plane and take off by the airport that are going to ruin it for everyone. You can't make laws to prevent that because they are too hard to enforce. I'm not sure what to do about this phenomena.

One thing I don't understand is making separate rules for the drones, even if they have to abide by the visual line of site and max 500 ft altitude just like the rest of the model traffic.
I'm glad the AMA was able to get the FAA to leave model pilots out of the mess. I think as a whole, people that actually join the AMA and fly at clubs, are responsible and no other laws are needed.

We get a lot of converts from the AMA to the SSA (I'm one of them) so we all need to back each other. A sailplane flying below 500 ft is rare and a model airplane flying above 500 ft is also rare, hopefully that will keep us safe. Remember, it's all VFR traffic right?

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