Silver Badge questions

[Bob Pasker]

I would like to attempt the duration and altitude silver badge.

how do I go about finding an observer willing to work with me?

how do I borrow/rent an appropriate flight data recorder?

thanks, bob

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 5:53:54 PM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
> I would like to attempt the duration and altitude silver badge.
>
> how do I go about finding an observer willing to work with me?
>
> how do I borrow/rent an appropriate flight data recorder?
>
> thanks, bob

The SSA.org website will cover requirements.
A Replogle barograph (I believe it needs a "current" calibration) is enough to document the flight.
Nothing fancy here (stated from one that did up to diamond goal & distance using a barograph and ACTUAL film camera's!!!!!..... just need a Diamond altitude for a full set.... all done from Middletown, NY).

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 2:53:54 PM UTC-8, Bob Pasker wrote:
> how do I borrow/rent an appropriate flight data recorder?

Assuming you are in US, one option is the FlyWithCE FR300, which is an SSA approved "GPS Position Recorder". This is good for your Silver and Gold badges, OLC, and SSA contests. At $140 won't put a big dent in your wallet (and is not much more than the cost of getting a dusty old barograph calibrated):

http://wingsandwheels.com/old-site/flywithce_recorder_erixx_gps_dat.htm

Just remember that you need an extra 100 meters for your badge altitude gains...

Marc

[Cookie]

you can get it calibrated AFTER the flight!

Cookie


On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 6:00:23 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 5:53:54 PM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
> > I would like to attempt the duration and altitude silver badge.
> >
> > how do I go about finding an observer willing to work with me?
> >
> > how do I borrow/rent an appropriate flight data recorder?
> >
> > thanks, bob
>
> The SSA.org website will cover requirements.
> A Replogle barograph (I believe it needs a "current" calibration) is enough to document the flight.
> Nothing fancy here (stated from one that did up to diamond goal & distance using a barograph and ACTUAL film camera's!!!!!..... just need a Diamond altitude for a full set.... all done from Middletown, NY).

[Bob Pasker]

that looks pretty good, thanks.

but there is a table titled "Flight Recorder FR300 Quick list of certificates" that does now show that the device can be used for SSA Silver and Gold badges, although this is contradicted in the text.

it also means I need windows (which I don't currently have)

On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 6:52:11 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 2:53:54 PM UTC-8, Bob Pasker wrote:
> > how do I borrow/rent an appropriate flight data recorder?
>
> Assuming you are in US, one option is the FlyWithCE FR300, which is an SSA approved "GPS Position Recorder". This is good for your Silver and Gold badges, OLC, and SSA contests. At $140 won't put a big dent in your wallet (and is not much more than the cost of getting a dusty old barograph calibrated):
>
> http://wingsandwheels.com/old-site/flywithce_recorder_erixx_gps_dat.htm
>
> Just remember that you need an extra 100 meters for your badge altitude gains...
>
> Marc

[Cookie]

Observer: Just ask around! Any SSA member should be qualified, and willing. You do all the "grunt" work and get the forms and fill them out properly...so the observer needs only to "supervise" and sign. Don't become a "pest"

Flight recorder:
1) Just ask! Somebody will probably have something they can lend you.

2)Or... Most pilots join some sort of glider club. Most clubs have such equipment available to members..

3)Some commercial glider operators offer "rental" of flight recorders for a "small fee"

4)If you wish to use a simple old fashioned mechanical baragraph, I bet somebody would give you one for the asking....Back in the day, they were in the range of $400 and up! Nowadays they are used for Christmas tree decorations, door stops, and to start nostalgic conversations. No actual monetary value....My club has 6 of 'em sitting in the closet in the equipment shed!

5) Consider buying your own equipment....this is something you may find useful for years to come. Some used ones come up now and then...The "fly with CE" is a good deal...maybe colibri II....etc?


Cookie


On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 5:53:54 PM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
> I would like to attempt the duration and altitude silver badge.
>
> how do I go about finding an observer willing to work with me?
>
> how do I borrow/rent an appropriate flight data recorder?
>
> thanks, bob

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 4:21:35 PM UTC-8, Bob Pasker wrote:
> but there is a table titled "Flight Recorder FR300 Quick list of certificates" that does now show that the device can be used for SSA Silver and Gold badges, although this is contradicted in the text.

It is pretty much impossible to find the position recorder approval documents on the SSA web site (someone may want to consider fixing that), it is much easier to find on the FAI web site:

http://www.fai.org/component/phocadownload/category/?download=7140:flywithce-fr-300-igc-pr-approval-ssa-v3a

Marc

[Dan Marotta]

IIRC, unless something has changed, not just any SSA member is qualified
as an observer. I believe the observer has to at least hold a badge
leg. Airport managers also qualify and, perhaps, an FBO. Just be sure
to get it right. It's a bummer to have a good flight disqualified on a
technicality but the technicalities are part of the process. Don't cut
corners.

Good luck!


On 2/21/2015 5:31 PM, Cookie wrote:
> Observer: Just ask around! Any SSA member should be qualified, and willing. You do all the "grunt" work and get the forms and fill them out properly...so the observer needs only to "supervise" and sign. Don't become a "pest"
>
> Flight recorder:
> 1) Just ask! Somebody will probably have something they can lend you.
>
> 2)Or... Most pilots join some sort of glider club. Most clubs have such equipment available to members..
>
> 3)Some commercial glider operators offer "rental" of flight recorders for a "small fee"
>
> 4)If you wish to use a simple old fashioned mechanical baragraph, I bet somebody would give you one for the asking....Back in the day, they were in the range of $400 and up! Nowadays they are used for Christmas tree decorations, door stops, and to start nostalgic conversations. No actual monetary value....My club has 6 of 'em sitting in the closet in the equipment shed!
>
> 5) Consider buying your own equipment....this is something you may find useful for years to come. Some used ones come up now and then...The "fly with CE" is a good deal...maybe colibri II....etc?
>
>
> Cookie
>
>
> On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 5:53:54 PM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
>> I would like to attempt the duration and altitude silver badge.
>>
>> how do I go about finding an observer willing to work with me?
>>
>> how do I borrow/rent an appropriate flight data recorder?
>>
>> thanks, bob

--
Dan Marotta

[Cookie]

Here's the skinny on OO....so just about (but not necessarily) every SSA member


A:
In the United States, the SSA has established the following requirements for a person to act as an Official Observer (OO) for any FAI Badge or Record flight or SSA State Record or Awards flight:

Must hold at least an SSA B Badge or higher SSA Badge (C or Bronze Badge), or a leg of an FAI Badge (e.g., Silver Altitude) or completed FAI Silver, Gold or Diamond Badge.
Must have a working knowledge of the FAI Sporting Code as it pertains to gliders (Section 3) including Annex C which is a guide to the Code.
Must be an SSA Member.
An Airport Manager may also act as an Official Observer





On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 7:44:53 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> IIRC, unless something has changed, not just any SSA member is qualified
> as an observer. I believe the observer has to at least hold a badge
> leg. Airport managers also qualify and, perhaps, an FBO. Just be sure
> to get it right. It's a bummer to have a good flight disqualified on a
> technicality but the technicalities are part of the process. Don't cut
> corners.
>
> Good luck!
>
>
> On 2/21/2015 5:31 PM, Cookie wrote:
> > Observer: Just ask around! Any SSA member should be qualified, and willing. You do all the "grunt" work and get the forms and fill them out properly...so the observer needs only to "supervise" and sign. Don't become a "pest"
> >
> > Flight recorder:
> > 1) Just ask! Somebody will probably have something they can lend you.
> >
> > 2)Or... Most pilots join some sort of glider club. Most clubs have such equipment available to members..
> >
> > 3)Some commercial glider operators offer "rental" of flight recorders for a "small fee"
> >
> > 4)If you wish to use a simple old fashioned mechanical baragraph, I bet somebody would give you one for the asking....Back in the day, they were in the range of $400 and up! Nowadays they are used for Christmas tree decorations, door stops, and to start nostalgic conversations. No actual monetary value....My club has 6 of 'em sitting in the closet in the equipment shed!
> >
> > 5) Consider buying your own equipment....this is something you may find useful for years to come. Some used ones come up now and then...The "fly with CE" is a good deal...maybe colibri II....etc?
> >
> >
> > Cookie
> >
> >
> > On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 5:53:54 PM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
> >> I would like to attempt the duration and altitude silver badge.
> >>
> >> how do I go about finding an observer willing to work with me?
> >>
> >> how do I borrow/rent an appropriate flight data recorder?
> >>
> >> thanks, bob
>
> --
> Dan Marotta

[[email protected]]

I'll second the use of the FlywithCE FR300. I purchased one for this past season and was able to obtain my Silver Badge with it. It does require you to use the associated Logbook to download the .igc's from the recorder. Naturally the Logbook program is only available for a Windows based computer.. This did force me to finally install Bootcamp and Windows 7 on my iMac. But use of the Recorder is extremely easy. I just turn it on about 10 minutes or so before takeoff and turn it off a couple of minutes after landing and that's it.

[Bill T]

I don't think Repolge barographs are accepted any more? Many years ago SSA told us we were the only submitter that year using a Repolge and film.
I thought it now had to be a digital recorder?
Most "approved" recorders have a baro record for altitude, along with the GPS altitude.

Someone at your field may have a portable recorder, Nano's are great.
BillT

[Cookie]

Both the SSA website info on silver badge, and the FAI "rules" still mention "stand alone baragraph".....I can't find anything that says a "replogle" or Winter" baro is not to be used!

The lower cost electronic flight recorders such as Fly with CE...do NOT have baro (pressure)altitude so the rules require an extra height margin when going for altitude badges, to compensate for any possible error..

Cookie




On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 12:45:16 AM UTC-5, Bill T wrote:
> I don't think Repolge barographs are accepted any more? Many years ago SSA told us we were the only submitter that year using a Repolge and film.
> I thought it now had to be a digital recorder?
> Most "approved" recorders have a baro record for altitude, along with the GPS altitude.
>
> Someone at your field may have a portable recorder, Nano's are great.
> BillT

[Cookie]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 6:24:03 AM UTC-5, Cookie wrote:
> Both the SSA website info on silver badge, and the FAI "rules" still mention "stand alone baragraph".....I can't find anything that says a "replogle" or Winter" baro is not to be used!
>
> The lower cost electronic flight recorders such as Fly with CE...do NOT have baro (pressure)altitude so the rules require an extra height margin when going for altitude badges, to compensate for any possible error..
>
> Cookie
>
>
>
So I think climbing an extra 100 meters for the silver altitude beats spending an extra $500 to $1000 for a pressure sensing recorder any day!


Cookie



>
> On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 12:45:16 AM UTC-5, Bill T wrote:
> > I don't think Repolge barographs are accepted any more? Many years ago SSA told us we were the only submitter that year using a Repolge and film.
> > I thought it now had to be a digital recorder?
> > Most "approved" recorders have a baro record for altitude, along with the GPS altitude.
> >
> > Someone at your field may have a portable recorder, Nano's are great.
> > BillT

[MNLou]

Sorry Gents - I disagree.

Buy a Nano. They are relatively cheap, foolproof, fully IGC approved. Set it and forget it.

Plus, when you decide to fly your first contest, you will want a backup recorder anyway. Also, you can tie it into any instrument that needs a GPS engine.

Just my $0.02.

Lou

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

> > On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 12:45:16 AM UTC-5, Bill T wrote:
> > > I don't think Repolge barographs are accepted any more? Many years ago SSA told us we were the only submitter that year using a Repolge and film..
> > > I thought it now had to be a digital recorder?
> > > Most "approved" recorders have a baro record for altitude, along with the GPS altitude.
> > >
> > > Someone at your field may have a portable recorder, Nano's are great.
> > > BillT

The removal of mechanical barographs from the Sporting Code was proposed at last year's FAI/IGC Plenary meeting (Varese, ITA, 7-8 March 2014) as a Year One proposal. It is on the agenda for this year's Plenary (to be held at Lausanne SUI 27-28 February 2015) as a Year Two proposal. IF accepted, it will be incorporated into the Sporting Code this October 1st (end of northern hemisphere season, start of southern hemisphere season). See http://www.fai.org/igc-about-us/igc-meetings ; scroll down to para 8.1.9. Click "Sporting Code Committee Proposals". So, they can currently be used; it is POSSIBLE (perhaps probable) that this will be the last northern hemisphere season where they will be acceptable.

It takes two years for most changes to be made; an initial proposal, questions, comments, requests for change, then a final proposal, vote, and if accepted, the process to incorporate it into the next Sporting Code.

One gotcha; when I went to the fai pages, I initially couldn't find the agenda with links that had this, in the "documents" link where I expected it; it was cleverly hidden in the "about us" link under "meetings". As of this morning, it is in "documents" under "meetings".

If you want a break from shoveling snow, you can click through the links and read each proposal; reports from OSTIV, voting for locations of future World Contests (eg. - 1st PAGC handicaps are mentioned). You can watch, over the years, the progress in the Sporting Code. The changes proposed for this year may mean the SC is 80% the length of the current code, theoretically much simpler, and separates badge flying from records (which as any casual reader of the sporting code knows, greatly complicates and frustrates neophyte badge fliers (and their OOs)). Good, thankless work by the Sporting Code committee.

2D

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 8:03:43 AM UTC-5, Dan Daly wrote:
> > > On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 12:45:16 AM UTC-5, Bill T wrote:
> > > > I don't think Repolge barographs are accepted any more? Many years ago SSA told us we were the only submitter that year using a Repolge and film.
> > > > I thought it now had to be a digital recorder?
> > > > Most "approved" recorders have a baro record for altitude, along with the GPS altitude.
> > > >
> > > > Someone at your field may have a portable recorder, Nano's are great.

[Cookie]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 8:01:44 AM UTC-5, MNLou wrote:
> Sorry Gents - I disagree.
>

I'm not sure what pparts you disagree with? Maybe everything?

As far as Baragraph...I said they can be used...and offer a $0 solution to the OP's problem...But, I do not recommend this as the best solution however, as baragraphs are not user friendly, and pose all kinds of potential problems, like just trying to mount into the glider.


A Nano at over $400 is a good solution, but maybe beyond the budget of a beginning glider pilot...although it is something that will be used well into the future if the pilot stays with the sport. (better than the $1000 Colibri's my club purchased a few years back.)

I think the Fly with CE is a better choice for a beginner, at $150... and it's very user friendly. A couple of new pilots could also chip in to share the cost. Or a club could purchase several..

Cookie







> Buy a Nano. They are relatively cheap, foolproof, fully IGC approved. Set it and forget it.
>
> Plus, when you decide to fly your first contest, you will want a backup recorder anyway. Also, you can tie it into any instrument that needs a GPS engine.
>
> Just my $0.02.
>
> Lou

[[email protected]]

Our club members have been snapping up used EW Microrecorders for around $200 each. Four purchased last year. Fully approved, user friendly and price sensible.

Lane

[Bob Pasker]

well, I am not getting a barograph. this is 2015, after all :)

so the low-cost choices seem to be (correct me if I'm wrong):

Fly WithCE (needs windows, but I guess I can install Parallels on my Mac)
EW Microrecorders (looks like a Hayes Modem from 1982)
LXNAV Nano (seems to be my favorite choice right now)

they are all within my price range

can any of these devices act as a high-res GPS source for an iPad running, say, Foreflight or one of the soaring apps, either over bluetooth or USB?

thanks!

[Bob Pasker]

looks like their Logbook program installs and runs in Parallels + Windows 10 Technical Preview, but I don't know if it will connect with the device because I don't have one

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 9:51:54 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
> Fly WithCE (needs windows, but I guess I can install Parallels on my Mac)

[Craig Funston]

Shoot, for $100 more the Nano 3 looks like the way to go.

[Bob Pasker]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 10:39:24 AM UTC-5, Craig Funston wrote:
> Shoot, for $100 more the Nano 3 looks like the way to go.

i like the electronic vario on the Nano3, but the user experience for operating its modes and screens belongs in a cardboard box in the garage with the barograph. I'd rather use a soaring app with my touchscreen iPad or iPhone.

[Tim Newport-Peace[_2_]]

At 16:41 22 February 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 10:39:24 AM UTC-5, Craig Funston wrote:
>> Shoot, for $100 more the Nano 3 looks like the way to go.
>
>i like the electronic vario on the Nano3, but the user experience for
>operating its modes and screens belongs in a cardboard box in the garage
>with the barograph. I'd rather use a soaring app with my touchscreen iPad
>or iPhone.
>
>
Not Possible for any IGC Badge.

[Craig Funston]

Agreed Bob. But as a back up, the nano three isn't bad. It has Bluetooth so you can probably use iGlide with your iPhone or iPad.

[Bob Pasker]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 12:15:12 PM UTC-5, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
> At 16:41 22 February 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
> >On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 10:39:24 AM UTC-5, Craig Funston wrote:
> >> Shoot, for $100 more the Nano 3 looks like the way to go.
> >
> >i like the electronic vario on the Nano3, but the user experience for
> >operating its modes and screens belongs in a cardboard box in the garage
> >with the barograph. I'd rather use a soaring app with my touchscreen iPad
> >or iPhone.
> >
> >
> Not Possible for any IGC Badge.

what's not possible? slaving the GPS?

[Bob Pasker]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 12:14:34 PM UTC-5, Craig Funston wrote:
> It has Bluetooth so you can probably use iGlide with your iPhone or iPad.

is iGlide the best iPhone/iPad soaring software?

[Tim Newport-Peace[_2_]]

At 17:32 22 February 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 12:15:12 PM UTC-5, Tim Newport-Peace
wrote:
>> At 16:41 22 February 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>> >On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 10:39:24 AM UTC-5, Craig Funston
wrote:
>> >> Shoot, for $100 more the Nano 3 looks like the way to go.
>> >
>> >i like the electronic vario on the Nano3, but the user experience for
>> >operating its modes and screens belongs in a cardboard box in the
garage
>> >with the barograph. I'd rather use a soaring app with my touchscreen
>iPad
>> >or iPhone.
>> >
>> >
>> Not Possible for any IGC Badge.
>
>what's not possible? slaving the GPS?
>
You cannot use an Ipad or Iphone for evidence of any IGC Badge, Diploma or
Record. They do not conform to the requirements of the Sporting Code
Section 3, in particular Chapter 4 and it's Appendix.

[Tim Newport-Peace[_2_]]

At 17:32 22 February 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 12:15:12 PM UTC-5, Tim Newport-Peace
wrote:
>> At 16:41 22 February 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>> >On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 10:39:24 AM UTC-5, Craig Funston
wrote:
>> >> Shoot, for $100 more the Nano 3 looks like the way to go.
>> >
>> >i like the electronic vario on the Nano3, but the user experience for
>> >operating its modes and screens belongs in a cardboard box in the
garage
>> >with the barograph. I'd rather use a soaring app with my touchscreen
>iPad
>> >or iPhone.
>> >
>> >
>> Not Possible for any IGC Badge.
>
>what's not possible? slaving the GPS?
>
You cannot use an Ipad or Iphone for evidence of any IGC Badge, Diploma or
Record. They do not conform to the requirements of the Sporting Code
Section 3, in particular Chapter 4 and it's Appendix.

[Bob Pasker]

> You cannot use an Ipad or Iphone for evidence of any IGC Badge, Diploma or
> Record. They do not conform to the requirements of the Sporting Code
> Section 3, in particular Chapter 4 and it's Appendix.

I was talking about slaving the high-res GPS in the data recorder to the iPad for navigation, not recording

[Craig Funston]

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 9:33:57 AM UTC-8, Bob Pasker wrote:
> On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 12:14:34 PM UTC-5, Craig Funston wrote:
> > It has Bluetooth so you can probably use iGlide with your iPhone or iPad.
>
> is iGlide the best iPhone/iPad soaring software?

Bob, I'm not up to date with the latest for iPad / iPhone. I believe Winpilot just released a version for iPhone. You can dig through RAS for opinions on various software options. Some of the US glider gear vendors have youtube videos up on the Nano3 and iGlide if you want a deeper look.

Cheers,
Craig 7Q

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 06:51:51 -0800, Bob Pasker wrote:

> EW Microrecorders (looks like a Hayes Modem from 1982)
>
Plug in into the USB socket on your PC using the supplied cable and it
comes up looking like a piece of flash memory. Just drag and drop to get
IGC log files off it.

This should work with any operating system: I use Linux and it works
without any problem.




--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Benedict Smith]

At 20:07 22 February 2015, Craig Funston wrote:
>On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 9:33:57 AM UTC-8, Bob Pasker wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 12:14:34 PM UTC-5, Craig Funston
wrote:
>> > It has Bluetooth so you can probably use iGlide with your iPhone or
>iPa=
>d.
>>=20
>> is iGlide the best iPhone/iPad soaring software?
>
>Bob, I'm not up to date with the latest for iPad / iPhone. I believe
>Winpi=
>lot just released a version for iPhone. You can dig through RAS for
>opinio=
>ns on various software options. Some of the US glider gear vendors have
>you=
>tube videos up on the Nano3 and iGlide if you want a deeper look.
>
>Cheers,
>Craig 7Q
>
Unfortunately Apple only allow certified bluetooth 4 devices to connect to

iPads and iPhones, they also don't support SPP, so unless the manufacturer

specifies IOS support then it will not connect (unless you jailbreak your
device and install a full bluetooth stack!)
I know having been down this road already with BT GPS devices.
Ben.