First glider Nimbus 2 ?

[Surge]

A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider and I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.

I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best choice for a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar while I first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation for purchase is because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type of flying I've always wished to do and also because of the opportunity presented which may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take ages to sell where I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want to fly for the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider" that I battle to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in the transition phase.

My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km), relaxed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to performance and bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in competition flying.. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of ~40:1 than blast around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a task.
I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem areas I need to be aware of.

1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give before stalling and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and spin or can it be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spin category? If it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rather stay with an Astir and just limit my cross country range.

2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B or 2C model). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is it twitchy/unstable and need constant attention or is it fairly stable and one doesn't have to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?

3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are outlandings a challenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually plenty of plowed fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded by farmers with shotguns).

Areas I'm aware of:
- Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit trickier.
- Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on takeoff.
- Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly before the tail! :-O
- Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under ruddered which makes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m ships.
- Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs) make out landings more challenging/dangerous.
- Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared and flown conservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a reason to not fly such an awesome old lady.
- The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories before someone brings that up.
- All AD's including tail AD applied.

[Bill D]

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 9:11:44 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
> A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider and I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.
>
> I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best choice for a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar while I first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation for purchase is because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type of flying I've always wished to do and also because of the opportunity presented which may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take ages to sell where I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want to fly for the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider" that I battle to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in the transition phase.
>
> My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km), relaxed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to performance and bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in competition flying. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of ~40:1 than blast around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a task.
> I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem areas I need to be aware of.
>
> 1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give before stalling and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and spin or can it be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spin category? If it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rather stay with an Astir and just limit my cross country range.
>
> 2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B or 2C model). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is it twitchy/unstable and need constant attention or is it fairly stable and one doesn't have to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?
>
> 3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are outlandings a challenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually plenty of plowed fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded by farmers with shotguns).
>
> Areas I'm aware of:
> - Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit trickier.
> - Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on takeoff.
> - Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly before the tail! :-O
> - Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under ruddered which makes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m ships.
> - Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs) make out landings more challenging/dangerous.
> - Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared and flown conservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a reason to not fly such an awesome old lady.
> - The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories before someone brings that up.
> - All AD's including tail AD applied.

I have owned a N2C and I would not recommend it to a pilot without several hundred hours experience in another high performance flapped glider. There are no issues in free flight - in fact the N2C is a very stable bird - but takeoff and landings can be a handful for anyone new to the glider. It sometimes feels like one needs three hands.

The trailing edge air brakes are immensely powerful. I think the full brake 60 kt glide is something like 2:1 so about 4" of air brake handle movement changes the glide from just under 50:1 to 2:1. That takes a little time to get used to.

[Surge]

On Friday, 13 March 2015 05:23:49 UTC+2, Bill D wrote:
> I have owned a N2C and I would not recommend it to a pilot without several hundred hours experience in another high performance flapped glider.

Wow! That bad.
I found a similar thread with similar advice https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/zwO51PdZW00
It's just a pity that access to other flapped gliders is rather limited or expensive in my case.

> The trailing edge air brakes are immensely powerful.

The trailing edge brakes were apparently only added in the N2C and are not found in the 2 or 2B.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 6:31:41 PM UTC+13, Surge wrote:
> On Friday, 13 March 2015 05:23:49 UTC+2, Bill D wrote:
> > I have owned a N2C and I would not recommend it to a pilot without several hundred hours experience in another high performance flapped glider.
>
> Wow! That bad.
> I found a similar thread with similar advice https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/zwO51PdZW00
> It's just a pity that access to other flapped gliders is rather limited or expensive in my case.

I've never flown a Nimbus, but I've got a fair bit of experience in the first generation Janus, also with flaps and all-flying tailplane.

To be honest, I'm not sure that hours matter that much with these aircraft. You either "get" them or you don't.

I had 75 hours total, 54 hours PIC, when I started flying the Janus. It was new to our club and expensive and they were very protective of it, so I had to do nine dual takeoffs and landings in a variety of weather conditions before they gave me my (pax) rating in it.

I've seen other people, experienced instructors in Grobs with hundreds of hours, who took one or two flights in the Janus and declared they'd never set foot in it again.

I definitely would recommend you to find an early model Janus and do a few dual flights in it before flying the Nimbus (preferably before deciding to buy it), even if you have to travel to do so.

[John Galloway[_1_]]

Apart from being a poor choice as a first glider in terms of rigging,
handling and approach control, you would be unlikely to want to stick
with an early Nimbus 2 for many years which would negate the logic
of wanting to buy it in the first place.

As a general point the early generation of GRP flapped gliders really
don't gain much from the flaps relative to slightly later unflapped
gliders - especially those, like the Nimbus, with Wortmann FX- 67
series profiles which are very badly affected by rain and bugs. The
standard class gliders from the LS4, Discus onwards are all seriously
useful, well sorted out gliders.

John Galloway



At 06:10 13 March 2015, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 6:31:41 PM UTC+13, Surge wrote:
>> On Friday, 13 March 2015 05:23:49 UTC+2, Bill D wrote:
>> > I have owned a N2C and I would not recommend it to a pilot
without
>seve=
>ral hundred hours experience in another high performance flapped
glider.
>>=20
>> Wow! That bad.
>> I found a similar thread with similar advice
>https://groups.google.com/fo=
>rum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/zwO51PdZW00
>> It's just a pity that access to other flapped gliders is rather limited
>o=
>r expensive in my case.
>
>I've never flown a Nimbus, but I've got a fair bit of experience in the
>fir=
>st generation Janus, also with flaps and all-flying tailplane.
>
>To be honest, I'm not sure that hours matter that much with these
>aircraft.=
> You either "get" them or you don't.
>
>I had 75 hours total, 54 hours PIC, when I started flying the Janus. It
>was=
> new to our club and expensive and they were very protective of it,
so I
>ha=
>d to do nine dual takeoffs and landings in a variety of weather
conditions
>=
>before they gave me my (pax) rating in it.
>
>I've seen other people, experienced instructors in Grobs with
hundreds of
>h=
>ours, who took one or two flights in the Janus and declared they'd
never
>se=
>t foot in it again.
>
>I definitely would recommend you to find an early model Janus and
do a few
>=
>dual flights in it before flying the Nimbus (preferably before
deciding to
>=
>buy it), even if you have to travel to do so.
>

[Surge]

On Friday, 13 March 2015 08:10:53 UTC+2, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> I definitely would recommend you to find an early model Janus and do a few dual flights in it before flying the Nimbus (preferably before deciding to buy it), even if you have to travel to do so.

Thanks, that's an excellent suggestion and a privately owned Janus (first one built) is located at the club I fly at.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 9:00:04 PM UTC+13, John Galloway wrote:
> Apart from being a poor choice as a first glider in terms of rigging,
> handling and approach control, you would be unlikely to want to stick
> with an early Nimbus 2 for many years which would negate the logic
> of wanting to buy it in the first place.

Ray Lynskey did.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 9:20:27 PM UTC+13, Surge wrote:
> On Friday, 13 March 2015 08:10:53 UTC+2, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > I definitely would recommend you to find an early model Janus and do a few dual flights in it before flying the Nimbus (preferably before deciding to buy it), even if you have to travel to do so.
>
> Thanks, that's an excellent suggestion and a privately owned Janus (first one built) is located at the club I fly at.

By the way, we tried the tail chute on our Janus a few times and then disabled it.

The airbrakes are not all that strong (neither are those in the Duo Discus!), but landing flap plus airbrake together are as effective as the brakes in most other gliders. Plus add in side slip and you've got a massively steep descent. You don't want to do that all the way to the ground, but it will get you down to a normal approach angle and then I'd say recover from the slip by 100 or 150 ft.

I don't think the parachute offers anything more than do the other tools at your disposal -- tools which you can apply and take off repeatedly if necessary.

I don't know how similar the Nimbus is in that regard. I'd suspect pretty similar, but I don't know for sure.

[Bob Holroyd]

Definately not a first glider.More like a third.
I've had mine(N2 A) for 16 years and love it to bits.You need to lead with
the rudder in turns,which goes against all I was taught regarding
co-ordinating the controls.If you do not it does a very good demonstration
of aileron drag.
I had a set of retro-fitted "Discus" winglets fitted,which improved matters
tremendously.
I went from a Pik 20 B to the Nimbus and was glad of the flapped experience
gained on the Pik.
Definately suggest flapped experience in a Janus.
Also buy a good set of covers;people tend to disappear when it's rigging
time.

A series of flights in an earlyGenerallAt 08:30 13 March 2015, Bruce Hoult
wrote:
>On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 9:20:27 PM UTC+13, Surge wrote:
>> On Friday, 13 March 2015 08:10:53 UTC+2, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>> > I definitely would recommend you to find an early model Janus and do
a
>=
>few dual flights in it before flying the Nimbus (preferably before
>deciding=
> to buy it), even if you have to travel to do so.
>>=20
>> Thanks, that's an excellent suggestion and a privately owned Janus
>(first=
> one built) is located at the club I fly at.
>
>By the way, we tried the tail chute on our Janus a few times and then
>disab=
>led it.
>
>The airbrakes are not all that strong (neither are those in the Duo
>Discus!=
>), but landing flap plus airbrake together are as effective as the brakes
>i=
>n most other gliders. Plus add in side slip and you've got a massively
>stee=
>p descent. You don't want to do that all the way to the ground, but it
>will=
> get you down to a normal approach angle and then I'd say recover from
the
>=
>slip by 100 or 150 ft.
>
>I don't think the parachute offers anything more than do the other tools
>at=
> your disposal -- tools which you can apply and take off repeatedly if
>nece=
>ssary.=20
>
>I don't know how similar the Nimbus is in that regard. I'd suspect pretty
>s=
>imilar, but I don't know for sure.
>

[Skypilot]

Hi Mate,

I have owned my N2 for 18 months now, I guess I have put about 100hrs on it and flown two comps. The sailplane I owned before this one was a Phoebus C. I did a huge amount of research before I bought mine and the most important advice I got from one of our gliding gods was.

It's a gentleman's conveyance , don't fly stupid speeds and you will catch the gaggle at half climb and leave before them.

My recommendation is to go out and buy it ASAP.

Cheap 18m performance for 20k
Schempp hirth quality
It will fly with a ASW20 LS8 all day as long as you don't go too fast
It will go like a scalded cat if you fill the water tanks. It's a little bit intimidating if you fly it way over gross weight ""I have heard"
The cockpit is huge and comfortable
It's easy to rig by yourself if you have a good single man rigger
You can fit and carry the tips easily by yourself
It's LD will get you home most days
it has a all flying tail plane for less maintenance
You have to think about the launch if you haven't flown flaps before
1 make sure it's lined up properly
2 start off in full negative flap
3 as soon as you have roll control move to positive flap
4 the tail will fly when ready, the book says start with full forward or back but I tend to trim it so that its neutral.
People will run off if they see you starting to rig but I can do it on my own in about an hour if left alone.
The all flying tail plane is a non event, I can fly mine hands off for enough time to get a uridome on, it does get twitchy at 120kts but how often do you really fly at those speeds. I have flown the asw15/Phoebus and the nimbus is easier to fly.
Thermaling is a breeze, I have head all these stories about its hard to turn, yes sometimes you have full rudder and notice it but these are sailplanes not Pitts specials.
The hoteliers are a little painful if it doesn't have the access hatch, if it doesn't the secret is to put your head in the hole and put the safety's in by putting your arm through the steel structure area.

I haven't outlandend mine yet but whilst the airbrakes aren't super powerful you can always hit your touch down point with ease.

My advice is to buy it and only take advice from those who have flown one and have opinions other than ones borne from the web.

I am an instructor and would happily send a pilot out in it as Lang as the had the correct mindset and a good cross country ability. As a rough guess 50-70 hrs with good single seat time. I think sometimes people forget that the legends of our sport flee these things 40 years ago and whilst they will never be as nice as a JS1 or ASG29 you aren't paying $200 k either.

My email is justinjsinclair the usual symbol hotmail.com if you want pics or furrier info

Justin

A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider and I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.

I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best choice for a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar while I first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation for purchase is because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type of flying I've always wished to do and also because of the opportunity presented which may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take ages to sell where I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want to fly for the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider" that I battle to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in the transition phase.

My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km), relaxed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to performance and bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in competition flying.. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of ~40:1 than blast around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a task.
I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem areas I need to be aware of.

1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give before stalling and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and spin or can it be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spin category? If it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rather stay with an Astir and just limit my cross country range.

2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B or 2C model). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is it twitchy/unstable and need constant attention or is it fairly stable and one doesn't have to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?

3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are outlandings a challenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually plenty of plowed fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded by farmers with shotguns).

Areas I'm aware of:
- Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit trickier.
- Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on takeoff.
- Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly before the tail! :-O
- Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under ruddered which makes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m ships.
- Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs) make out landings more challenging/dangerous.
- Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared and flown conservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a reason to not fly such an awesome old lady.
- The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories before someone brings that up.
- All AD's including tail AD applied.

[Tim Taylor]

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 9:11:44 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
> A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider and I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.
>

I had about 500 hours in a Std. Cirrus before transitioning to the N2A. As a first personal glider I would not recommend it mostly from the aspect of learning cross country. Your first personal glider should be something you are not afraid to put in any field. The N2A will limit that because it is a big ship with more mass and less maneuverability. Also, you will need a crew of at least two to come get you.

The tail chute is usually disabled because of the danger of inadvertently opening when you don't want it to. I took mine out and sealed the compartment with tape. The airbrakes are adequate and coupled with the flaps are enough for glide path control.

The biggest issue is everything happens fast on take off and landing in the bigger glider, not what you want on your first ten or so off-field landings. The slower handling and higher l/d make judgment and correction harder and slower right when you need them.

The all flying tail takes getting used to and is mostly a matter of having less feedback than other gliders. Once you get used to it is not an issue but there is a learning curve and newer pilots tend to PIO on early take-offs. It is also not stable in flight so you can't take your hands off the stick and must brace your arm at higher speeds.

It requires negative flaps at the beginning of the take-off and end of landing so you have to be well ahead of the glider to be able to adjust the flaps during the initial roll and landing roll.

With the large mass the wheel brake needs to be adjusted well and sanded often and will still be lacking in stopping power most of the time.

I enjoyed my N2A but also realized it limited my soaring options at times. Overall it flies well and is a fun glider once you have time to get used to it. It works well over flat terrain but is limited close to the mountains due to the slower handling.

For the same price range an early standard class ship or LS-3 would be a better option for the first personal glider to learn xc in.

As always, I recommend talking with a good instructor with cross country experience that knows your capabilities.

[Gliding Guru]

I think bang for bucks you probably won't be able to find cheaper. And with
a bit of water it should go you the same ave speeds as an Asw 20. And with
a few extra litres the 27 pilots won't be leaving you that quick.

I would still recommend an Asw 20 if you are starting out and you can
afford it, but then I think that you may only be paying half the price for
the nimbus. Every buck counted when I started so I flew the cheaper
underestimated and unloved aircraft and still had as much fun as anyone
else.

You won't have many friends if you rig and de-rig too often so try to keep
it in a hanger.

Also I know of at least one nimbus 2 that was written off by the tail chute
popping inadvertently in the air. The pilot was not able to reach the
airport. But if you are flying somewhere like South Africa where the fields
are big you don't need the chute anyway.

The one thing that I have noted with these older aircraft is that the mylar
was either not put on correctly in the first place or is in the process of
failing off. If it's not perfect then rip it off. Put the Tessa tap in its
place and you 99% as good as a well sealed machine anyway.





i Mate,>
>I have owned my N2 for 18 months now, I guess I have put about 100hrs o
>it and flown two comps. The sailplane I owned before this one was
>Phoebus C. I did a huge amount of research before I bought mine and th
>most important advice I got from one of our gliding gods was.
>
>It's a gentleman's conveyance , don't fly stupid speeds and you wil
>catch the gaggle at half climb and leave before them.
>
>My recommendation is to go out and buy it ASAP.
>
>Cheap 18m performance for 20k
>Schempp hirth quality
>It will fly with a ASW20 LS8 all day as long as you don't go too fast
>It will go like a scalded cat if you fill the water tanks. It's a littl
>bit intimidating if you fly it way over gross weight ""I have heard"
>The cockpit is huge and comfortable
>It's easy to rig by yourself if you have a good single man rigger
>You can fit and carry the tips easily by yourself
>It's LD will get you home most days
>it has a all flying tail plane for less maintenance
>You have to think about the launch if you haven't flown flaps before
>1 make sure it's lined up properly
>2 start off in full negative flap
>3 as soon as you have roll control move to positive flap
>4 the tail will fly when ready, the book says start with full forward o
>back but I tend to trim it so that its neutral.
>People will run off if they see you starting to rig but I can do it o
>my own in about an hour if left alone.
>The all flying tail plane is a non event, I can fly mine hands off fo
>enough time to get a uridome on, it does get twitchy at 120kts but ho
>often do you really fly at those speeds. I have flown the asw15/Phoebu
>and the nimbus is easier to fly.
>Thermaling is a breeze, I have head all these stories about its hard t
>turn, yes sometimes you have full rudder and notice it but these ar
>sailplanes not Pitts specials.
>The hoteliers are a little painful if it doesn't have the access hatch
>if it doesn't the secret is to put your head in the hole and put th
>safety's in by putting your arm through the steel structure area.
>
>I haven't outlandend mine yet but whilst the airbrakes aren't supe
>powerful you can always hit your touch down point with ease.
>
>My advice is to buy it and only take advice from those who have flow
>one and have opinions other than ones borne from the web.
>
>I am an instructor and would happily send a pilot out in it as Lang a
>the had the correct mindset and a good cross country ability. As a roug
>guess 50-70 hrs with good single seat time. I think sometimes peopl
>forget that the legends of our sport flee these things 40 years ago an
>whilst they will never be as nice as a JS1 or ASG29 you aren't payin
>$200 k either.
>
>My email is justinjsinclair the usual symbol hotmail.com if you wan
>pics or furrier info
>
>Justin
>
>Surge;898749 Wrote:
>> A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glide
>> and I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.
>>
>> I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best choic
>> for a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hanga
>> while I first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation fo
>> purchase is because I think the glider matches my checklist for the typ
>> of flying I've always wished to do and also because of the opportunit
>> presented which may not come around again. Due to the fact that glider
>> take ages to sell where I live (slow market), I'd rather purchas
>> something I want to fly for the next 20 years than purchase a
>> intermediate "first glider" that I battle to sell later. There is enoug
>> G102 stock available to hire in the transition phase.
>>
>> My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km)
>> relaxed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards t
>> performance and bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested i
>> competition flying.. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with a
>> L/D of ~40:1 than blast around at 200+ km/h trying to shave preciou
>> seconds off a task.
>> I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem areas I nee
>> to be aware of.
>>
>> 1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give befor
>> stalling and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and spi
>> or can it be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spi
>> category? If it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rathe
>> stay with an Astir and just limit my cross country range.
>>
>> 2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B or 2
>> model). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is i
>> twitchy/unstable and need constant attention or is it fairly stable an
>> one doesn't have to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?
>>
>> 3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are outlandings
>> challenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually plenty o
>> plowed fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded b
>> farmers with shotguns).
>>
>> Areas I'm aware of:
>> - Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit trickier.
>> - Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on takeoff.
>> - Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly before th
>> tail! :-O
>> - Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under ruddered whic
>> makes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m ships.
>> - Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs) make ou
>> landings more challenging/dangerous.
>> - Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared and flow
>> conservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a reason t
>> not fly such an awesome old lady.
>> - The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories before someon
>> brings that up.
>> - All AD's including tail AD applied
>
>
>
>
>--
>Skypilot
>

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Dear Surge:

A G102. will not give you the skills needed to fly the N2. You must get as much Janus time as possible. I have lots of all flying tail experience and while you get used to it, I would never have such a glider again as a bump can cause +3 -3 G PIO's. I think a much better choice would be an early std class. An easier to assemble, fly and land glider will mean you fly more!!!!! Second, there is no relaxed (armchair ride) cross country of any length. Sure some are faster and more intense, but you much always be many steps ahead and always be within gliding range of a suitable landing place.

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 8:11:44 PM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
> A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider and I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.
>
> I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best choice for a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar while I first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation for purchase is because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type of flying I've always wished to do and also because of the opportunity presented which may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take ages to sell where I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want to fly for the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider" that I battle to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in the transition phase.
>
> My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km), relaxed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to performance and bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in competition flying. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of ~40:1 than blast around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a task.
> I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem areas I need to be aware of.
>
> 1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give before stalling and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and spin or can it be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spin category? If it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rather stay with an Astir and just limit my cross country range.
>
> 2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B or 2C model). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is it twitchy/unstable and need constant attention or is it fairly stable and one doesn't have to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?
>
> 3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are outlandings a challenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually plenty of plowed fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded by farmers with shotguns).
>
> Areas I'm aware of:
> - Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit trickier.
> - Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on takeoff.
> - Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly before the tail! :-O
> - Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under ruddered which makes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m ships.
> - Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs) make out landings more challenging/dangerous.
> - Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared and flown conservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a reason to not fly such an awesome old lady.
> - The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories before someone brings that up.
> - All AD's including tail AD applied.

[Julian Rees]

Hi Surge

Having flown a Nimbus 2B and a good range of other types I would not
recommend a Nimbus 2 / 2B to a low hours glider pilot unless he had a lot
of other handling experience (for example as a fast jet or aerobatic
pilot). The all flying tail is not very stable in pitch and the airbrakes
are rather weak (there is a mod which will double paddle them but even then
they are adequate rather than great).

Like most gliders of this generation it will spin if provoked, but the
behavior is dependent on the CofG position - with an aft CofG they drop a
wing quite easily and are definitely not as docile as the more modern
types.

The Nimbus 2C is better in some respects (fixed tail and trailing edge
brakes) but most open class gliders are not ideal for low-hours pilots (you
dont say your hours but I assume that is the case). The exception IMHO is
the Open Cirrus which is relatively straightforward.

Of course with a few hundred hours under your belt on other types (such as
std cirrus or Janus) things would be different.

I would recommend an LS4 if you can afford it, or ASW19/20 as a slightly
cheaper option, or maybe a DG200/202 or DG101 or DG300. Any of these is
good for 300-500km flights given reasonable conditions and will be easier
to handle, thermal, and land (out or away).

Best advice as always is talk to you CFI - assuming they have a good range
of experience and types in the book

Of course this is only my opinion but hope it helps !

>
>On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 8:11:44 PM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
>> A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider
>an=
>d I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.
>>=20
>> I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best choice
>fo=
>r a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar while
I
>=
>first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation for purchase
>i=
>s because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type of flying
>I'=
>ve always wished to do and also because of the opportunity presented
which
>=
>may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take ages to sell
>w=
>here I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want to fly
for
>=
>the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider" that I
>battl=
>e to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in the
>transi=
>tion phase.
>>=20
>> My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km),
>rela=
>xed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to performance
>an=
>d bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in competition
>flyi=
>ng. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of ~40:1 than
>blas=
>t around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a task.=20
>> I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem areas I need
>to=
> be aware of.
>>=20
>> 1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give before
>stall=
>ing and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and spin or can
>i=
>t be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spin category?
>If=
> it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rather stay with an
>Ast=
>ir and just limit my cross country range.
>>=20
>> 2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B or 2C
>m=
>odel). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is it
>twitchy/unst=
>able and need constant attention or is it fairly stable and one doesn't
>hav=
>e to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?
>>=20
>> 3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are outlandings a
>c=
>hallenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually plenty of
>plowe=
>d fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded by
farmers
>=
>with shotguns).
>>=20
>> Areas I'm aware of:
>> - Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit trickier.
>> - Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on takeoff.
>> - Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly before the
>t=
>ail! :-O
>> - Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under ruddered which
>ma=
>kes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m ships.
>> - Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs) make out
>landing=
>s more challenging/dangerous.
>> - Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared and flown
>c=
>onservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a reason to
not
>=
>fly such an awesome old lady.
>> - The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories before someone
>b=
>rings that up.
>> - All AD's including tail AD applied.
>

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I think Jules 970 is right on point. And I can not stress enough, that if you get this Nimbus2 you will do much less flying than if you get one of the gliders mentioned below. If you are flying XC you want a glider that is comfortable and easy to handle, what if you are low and have to bend around a small thermal, you want a glider that is easy to fly, you will build more confidence, you will want to fly it more and friends will help you assemble the glider. If you get a machine like this you are more likely to not be confident for many hours, it might scare you enough that you do not fly...... Good luck and stay safe.

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 9:15:04 AM UTC-7, Jules 970 wrote:
> Hi Surge
>
> Having flown a Nimbus 2B and a good range of other types I would not
> recommend a Nimbus 2 / 2B to a low hours glider pilot unless he had a lot
> of other handling experience (for example as a fast jet or aerobatic
> pilot). The all flying tail is not very stable in pitch and the airbrakes
> are rather weak (there is a mod which will double paddle them but even then
> they are adequate rather than great).
>
> Like most gliders of this generation it will spin if provoked, but the
> behavior is dependent on the CofG position - with an aft CofG they drop a
> wing quite easily and are definitely not as docile as the more modern
> types.
>
> The Nimbus 2C is better in some respects (fixed tail and trailing edge
> brakes) but most open class gliders are not ideal for low-hours pilots (you
> dont say your hours but I assume that is the case). The exception IMHO is
> the Open Cirrus which is relatively straightforward.
>
> Of course with a few hundred hours under your belt on other types (such as
> std cirrus or Janus) things would be different.
>
> I would recommend an LS4 if you can afford it, or ASW19/20 as a slightly
> cheaper option, or maybe a DG200/202 or DG101 or DG300. Any of these is
> good for 300-500km flights given reasonable conditions and will be easier
> to handle, thermal, and land (out or away).
>
> Best advice as always is talk to you CFI - assuming they have a good range
> of experience and types in the book
>
> Of course this is only my opinion but hope it helps !
>
> >
> >On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 8:11:44 PM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
> >> A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider
> >an=
> >d I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.
> >>=20
> >> I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best choice
> >fo=
> >r a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar while
> I
> >=
> >first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation for purchase
> >i=
> >s because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type of flying
> >I'=
> >ve always wished to do and also because of the opportunity presented
> which
> >=
> >may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take ages to sell
> >w=
> >here I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want to fly
> for
> >=
> >the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider" that I
> >battl=
> >e to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in the
> >transi=
> >tion phase.
> >>=20
> >> My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km),
> >rela=
> >xed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to performance
> >an=
> >d bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in competition
> >flyi=
> >ng. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of ~40:1 than
> >blas=
> >t around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a task.=20
> >> I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem areas I need
> >to=
> > be aware of.
> >>=20
> >> 1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give before
> >stall=
> >ing and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and spin or can
> >i=
> >t be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spin category?
> >If=
> > it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rather stay with an
> >Ast=
> >ir and just limit my cross country range.
> >>=20
> >> 2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B or 2C
> >m=
> >odel). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is it
> >twitchy/unst=
> >able and need constant attention or is it fairly stable and one doesn't
> >hav=
> >e to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?
> >>=20
> >> 3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are outlandings a
> >c=
> >hallenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually plenty of
> >plowe=
> >d fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded by
> farmers
> >=
> >with shotguns).
> >>=20
> >> Areas I'm aware of:
> >> - Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit trickier.
> >> - Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on takeoff.
> >> - Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly before the
> >t=
> >ail! :-O
> >> - Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under ruddered which
> >ma=
> >kes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m ships.
> >> - Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs) make out
> >landing=
> >s more challenging/dangerous.
> >> - Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared and flown
> >c=
> >onservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a reason to
> not
> >=
> >fly such an awesome old lady.
> >> - The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories before someone
> >b=
> >rings that up.
> >> - All AD's including tail AD applied.
> >

[John Galloway[_1_]]

It might be a good idea to find a copy of Dick Johnson's flight test of
the original Nimbus 2 published in Soaring magazine. Unfortunately
it is omitted from the web.archive.org list of Dick Johnson articles.
He describes getting into into a very bad situation with an
uncontrollable pitch up on an autotow launch. He advised "I do not
recommend that pilots with less than several hundred recent flying
hours fly this beautiful but complex machine, particularly from
ground tow".

BTW I used to own a carbon Nimbus 2c which I regard as a totally
different proposition - a big pussy cat. Lighter yet takes loads of
water (which it needs) with a 650kg MAUW compared with 580 for
the N2. Non-droopy carbon wings. Stable pitch control with a
conventional tailplane. Superb trailing edge airbrakes (that don't
increase the stalling speed) and a slow landing speed that make it a
very easy outlanding glider.

John Galloway


At 18:24 13 March 2015, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>I think Jules 970 is right on point. And I can not stress enough,
that if
>y=
>ou get this Nimbus2 you will do much less flying than if you get
one of
>th=
>e gliders mentioned below. If you are flying XC you want a glider
that is
>=
>comfortable and easy to handle, what if you are low and have to
bend
>around=
> a small thermal, you want a glider that is easy to fly, you will
build
>mor=
>e confidence, you will want to fly it more and friends will help you
>assemb=
>le the glider. If you get a machine like this you are more likely to
not
>b=
>e confident for many hours, it might scare you enough that you do
not
>fly..=
>.... Good luck and stay safe.
>
>On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 9:15:04 AM UTC-7, Jules 970 wrote:
>> Hi Surge
>>=20
>> Having flown a Nimbus 2B and a good range of other types I
would not
>> recommend a Nimbus 2 / 2B to a low hours glider pilot unless he
had a lot
>> of other handling experience (for example as a fast jet or
aerobatic
>> pilot). The all flying tail is not very stable in pitch and the
airbrakes
>> are rather weak (there is a mod which will double paddle them
but even
>th=
>en
>> they are adequate rather than great).=20
>>=20
>> Like most gliders of this generation it will spin if provoked, but
the
>> behavior is dependent on the CofG position - with an aft CofG
they drop a
>> wing quite easily and are definitely not as docile as the more
modern
>> types.
>>=20
>> The Nimbus 2C is better in some respects (fixed tail and trailing
edge
>> brakes) but most open class gliders are not ideal for low-hours
pilots
>(y=
>ou
>> dont say your hours but I assume that is the case). The
exception IMHO is
>> the Open Cirrus which is relatively straightforward.
>>=20
>> Of course with a few hundred hours under your belt on other
types (such
>a=
>s
>> std cirrus or Janus) things would be different.
>>=20
>> I would recommend an LS4 if you can afford it, or ASW19/20 as
a slightly
>> cheaper option, or maybe a DG200/202 or DG101 or DG300.
Any of these is
>> good for 300-500km flights given reasonable conditions and will
be easier
>> to handle, thermal, and land (out or away).
>>=20
>> Best advice as always is talk to you CFI - assuming they have a
good
>rang=
>e
>> of experience and types in the book
>>=20
>> Of course this is only my opinion but hope it helps !
>>=20
>> >
>> >On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 8:11:44 PM UTC-7, Surge
wrote:
>> >> A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my
first glider
>> >an=3D
>> >d I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown
one.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best
choice
>> >fo=3D
>> >r a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar
while
>> I
>> >=3D
>> >first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation
for
>purchas=
>e
>> >i=3D
>> >s because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type
of flying
>> >I'=3D
>> >ve always wished to do and also because of the opportunity
presented
>> which
>> >=3D
>> >may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take
ages to
>sel=
>l
>> >w=3D
>> >here I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want
to fly
>> for
>> >=3D
>> >the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider"
that I
>> >battl=3D
>> >e to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in
the
>> >transi=3D
>> >tion phase.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance
(300-500km),
>> >rela=3D
>> >xed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to
performance
>> >an=3D
>> >d bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in
competition
>> >flyi=3D
>> >ng. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of
~40:1 than
>> >blas=3D
>> >t around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a
task.=3D20
>> >> I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem
areas I need
>> >to=3D
>> > be aware of.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> 1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give
before
>> >stall=3D
>> >ing and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and
spin or
>ca=
>n
>> >i=3D
>> >t be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spin
category?
>> >If=3D
>> > it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rather stay
with an
>> >Ast=3D
>> >ir and just limit my cross country range.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> 2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B
or
>2=
>C
>> >m=3D
>> >odel). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is it
>> >twitchy/unst=3D
>> >able and need constant attention or is it fairly stable and one
doesn't
>> >hav=3D
>> >e to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?
>> >>=3D20
>> >> 3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are
outlandings
>=
>a
>> >c=3D
>> >hallenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually
plenty of
>> >plowe=3D
>> >d fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded
by
>> farmers
>> >=3D
>> >with shotguns).
>> >>=3D20
>> >> Areas I'm aware of:
>> >> - Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit
trickier.
>> >> - Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on
takeoff.
>> >> - Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly
before
>th=
>e
>> >t=3D
>> >ail! :-O
>> >> - Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under
ruddered which
>> >ma=3D
>> >kes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m
ships.
>> >> - Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs)
make out
>> >landing=3D
>> >s more challenging/dangerous.
>> >> - Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared
and
>flow=
>n
>> >c=3D
>> >onservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a
reason to
>> not
>> >=3D
>> >fly such an awesome old lady.
>> >> - The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories
before
>someon=
>e
>> >b=3D
>> >rings that up.
>> >> - All AD's including tail AD applied.
>> >
>
>

[JS]

Like Bruce and a few others, I don't condemn the N2A.
In my opinion, initially flying it with a forward C/G is best.
With about 100 hours my first N2A flight, at around the aft limit, took a few "interesting" seconds to get used to. Since then, enjoyed flights in properly ballasted N2s.
Justin might know the one I flew in Queensland, VH-GAW "Alice in Wonderland".
Jim

[Skypilot]

Hi Jim, yep she is still here, I think it's for sale at the moment. There are some details here.

http://www.hart.wattle.id.au/alice/articles.html

To be honest I belive if you can fly a cirrus, asw15. Astir you can fly a N2. Yes it's big but the what height and learning time is for. Are we really heading for a generation of pilots who don't want to fly stuff based on old stories and poor recollection of history. When Dick wrote that article there was the asw17 and N2 they were two years old and way ahead of anything else. I wonder what he would think of the Dianna or Duckhawk.

I any case my N2 to fly is available if you want to pay the $200 Excess insurance fee, It's at Kingaroy, arguably on of the fastest clubs in the world with no real wave and all done on thermals, hire charges for my glider are in Australian mates rates currency. I have a spare room in Brisbane and can organise transport. The CFI is very friendly (me :)).

Like Bruce and a few others, I don't condemn the N2A.
In my opinion, initially flying it with a forward C/G is best.
With about 100 hours my first N2A flight, at around the aft limit, took a few "interesting" seconds to get used to. Since then, enjoyed flights in properly ballasted N2s.
Justin might know the one I flew in Queensland, VH-GAW "Alice in Wonderland".
Jim

[[email protected]]

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 12:45:04 PM UTC-7, John Galloway wrote:
> It might be a good idea to find a copy of Dick Johnson's flight test of
> the original Nimbus 2 published in Soaring magazine. Unfortunately
> it is omitted from the web.archive.org list of Dick Johnson articles.
> He describes getting into into a very bad situation with an
> uncontrollable pitch up on an autotow launch. He advised "I do not
> recommend that pilots with less than several hundred recent flying
> hours fly this beautiful but complex machine, particularly from
> ground tow".
>

SSA members can access the Johnson review of the Nimbus II in the April, 1976 issue through the Soaring Magazine Archive.

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 11:11:44 PM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
>
> My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km), relaxed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to performance and bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in competition flying. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of ~40:1 than blast around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a task.

Something to consider... Long-winged gliders do present some challenges when it comes time to land off-field. It depends on where you live. The huge, flat fields of the US central plains are much more forgiving than the broken field flying we sometimes do in the Appalachian ridges. I am much more aware of narrow or rolling fields flying my 18M ASG-29 than I was flying the LS8 and LS4 that preceded it. Just another item to factor into your decision.

P3

[J. Nieuwenhuize]

How does the N2A (flying stab) handle winch launches and cable breaks during winching? Is the tail stalling an old wives tail or a real issue?

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 21:28 14 March 2015, Skypilot wrote:
>
>Hi Jim, yep she is still here, I think it's for sale at the moment
>There are some details here.
>
>http://www.hart.wattle.id.au/alice/articles.html
>
>To be honest I belive if you can fly a cirrus, asw15. Astir you can fl
>a N2. Yes it's big but the what height and learning time is for. Are
w
>really heading for a generation of pilots who don't want to fly stuf
>based on old stories and poor recollection of history. When Dick
wrot
>that article there was the asw17 and N2 they were two years old
and wa
>ahead of anything else. I wonder what he would think of the
Dianna o
>Duckhawk.
>
>I any case my N2 to fly is available if you want to pay the $200
Exces
>insurance fee, It's at Kingaroy, arguably on of the fastest clubs i
>the world with no real wave and all done on thermals, hire charges
fo
>my glider are in Australian mates rates currency. I have a spare
room i
>Brisbane and can organise transport. The CFI is very friendly (me
:)).
>

You don't have to wonder what Dick Johnson would have thought
about the Diana - you can read what he actually thought about the
Diana 1:

http://www.deturbulator.org/johnson-fte-diana1.pdf

[Ian[_2_]]

On 13/03/2015 05:11, Surge wrote:

> A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider and I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.

I see lots of opinions here. I will add my own. I owned one and flew
several hundred hours in her and logged some memorable cross country
flights including an FAI 1000km diploma, back in the days when fewer
people had done that, than had flown in space.

> I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best choice for a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar while I first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation for purchase is because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type of flying I've always wished to do and also because of the opportunity presented which may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take ages to sell where I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want to fly for the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider" that I battle to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in the transition phase.

The thing to remember is that this glider came off the drawing board
with the objective of beating the best open class ships existing at the
time. Suitability for a low time pilot was never a consideration.

That said, I think with > 50 hours P1 in a Grob single seater, including
at least "sliver C" level cross country flying, and a few outlandings
and then some good conversion time in a glass 2 seater (Janus would be
ideal) a suitably talented pilot should manage the conversion. But don't
rush it!

> 1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give before stalling and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and spin

Stalling is docile with little tendency to spin. But if you abuse it, it
can bight. The worst I had was pulling up into a thermal, fully
ballasted, allowing the speed at the top of the zoom to get a bit slow,
using aggressive rudder and aileron to get her into the turn and then
neglecting to set positive flaps before the wings loaded up at the top
of the zoom - it dropped a wing straight into a spin. But everything
except to the point of "failing to set positive flaps in time", is
"normal operation" when racing this glider.

> 2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail

VERY sensitive. Especially when compared with the very heavy, sluggish
response to aileron and rudder. This takes getting used to. I got
blisters on my feet from kicking the rudders after a few days of
competitive flying.

But to add to the all flying tail is the S-Bend shaped control stick. If
you hold the stick tight and knock down your wrist with your other hand
you will note that as your hand goes down you apply up elevator. This is
because the grip is not directly above the hinge point of the stick.
This is what happens when you hit a bump at high speed. The resulting G
force causes your hand to go down further causing more up elevator. This
can get ugly very quickly if you do not take precautions.

The advise I was given when I converted was don't fly over 170km/h until
you are used to the elevator. Then do not attempt to fly a low flypast
until have many hours and a lot of confidence with the ship. Finally if
you do fly over 200km/h, hold the stick below the S-bend, in front of
the brake cable. You just need to get your thumb in front of the cable
and gently push. I used both hands, two thumbs, with my hands resting on
my thighs for better control.

> 3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes?Are outlandings a challenge with the tail chute?

The airbrakes are modest. That is why it came out of the factory with a
tail chute. 99% of the time the airbrakes are good enough. The tail
chute was a bit controversial. On the one hand if you are committed to
an approach with tail chute, and it fails to open, you are in big
trouble. On the other if the chute deploys unintentionally then you are
likely to be on the ground before you realize what has happened.

During outlandings, I planned circuit and approach without relying on
the tail chute. Thus neutralising the threat of it not working when you
need it most. Then I used it after round out - to reduce the ground
roll, hence probability of hitting a rock, during outlandings in
ploughed fields. If you are flying a ship with a tail chute, it is worth
adding it to your mental emergency checklist, if you find you are in
prolonged, unexplained, heavy sink, or flying behind a tug that descends
instead of climbs.

> - Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit trickier.

It also has a CG release. When combined with the all flying tail, it
requires more concentration on tow.

> - Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on takeoff.

Not so. Mine had a tail wheel (not a skid) and it handled hot and high
cross wind takeoffs better than many 15m flapped ships.

> - Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly before the tail! :-O

Other way round. If you are slow to apply positive flap during the
ground run, the wing might take off before the tail, as the centre of
lift is further forward with negative flap. A handful of positive flap
will quickly rectify the situation, but it is a bit alarming.

> - Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared and flown conservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a reason to not fly such an awesome old lady.

I kept mine hangered in a T hanger with the wingtips removed. I could
put on the wing tips single handed and get her onto the flight line very
quickly. With the glide performance, I managed to "save" more
outlandings than I logged. Rigging is not actually that bad, as the wing
splits in 4 pieces with about equal weight on the ends of the inner
sections. (The ASW17 is much worse as the split is further outboard and
the inner wings are much heavier). Two full strength adults are required
to rig it. But if you land in a soft ploughed field and have to carry it
out, you will need four adults.

> - The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories before someone brings that up.
> - All AD's including tail AD applied.

These ships are approaching 45 years old. They were quite high
maintenance 20 years ago and I can only assume they will require a lot
more maintenance now. Check the condition, the finish, the trailer and
instruments very carefully. Then plan on spending a few weeks each off
season, fixing things that wear and brake.

I had a lot of good flying out of the Nimbus 2. If you are keen and
energetic, you could get a lot of flying out of one too.

Ian

[Surge]

A correction to an obvious mistake I made:
"Take off with full negative flaps works well" should read "Take off roll started with with negative flaps works well to keep the wings level".
One obviously needs to move flaps to neutral or +4 once there is enough aileron control. The tail won't lift off the ground with full negative flaps even at around 50km/h (31MPH).

I agree with the comments about tail wind take offs. I have seen and experienced what even a light tailwind of around 5km/h (3MPH) can do with regards to aileron authority and length of takeoff roll even in benign handling gliders such as Twin Astirs. Preferably don't do it unless the runway dictates it such as "one-way-in one-way-out" airfields or steep runways (land uphill take off downhill). It's definitely not on my TODO list in a Nimbus 2.

[[email protected]]

Has anyone actually used the drag chute in the Nimbus 2 , I used to own a Kestrel
with a drag chute and every 2-3 flights would use it, any comments on how effective it was

[Simon France[_2_]]

At 00:31 18 June 2018, wrote:
>Has anyone actually used the drag chute in the Nimbus 2 , I used to own a
>Kestrel
>with a drag chute and every 2-3 flights would use it, any comments on how
>effective it was
>

I flew a Nimbus 2 for a few years and used the Tail chute fairly regularly,
primarily just to stay current with it. It is very effective provided that
you pack it daily before flying. You need to maintain 55kts with it
deployed otherwise you wont have adequate speed for the round out. Also,
keep your hand on or near the jettison until you are sure that you are in
the field.
We often deployed it after rounding out to kill the float, and it meant
that you had to re-pack it.

[Piotr Mis]

piÄ…tek, 13 marca 2015 oÂ*04:11:44 UTC+1 Surge napisaÅ‚(a):
> A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider and I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.
>
> I do realize that a flapped, long winged glider is not the best choice for a low time pilot which is why I will keep the glider in a hangar while I first build up some experience on Grob G102's. My motivation for purchase is because I think the glider matches my checklist for the type of flying I've always wished to do and also because of the opportunity presented which may not come around again. Due to the fact that gliders take ages to sell where I live (slow market), I'd rather purchase something I want to fly for the next 20 years than purchase an intermediate "first glider" that I battle to sell later. There is enough G102 stock available to hire in the transition phase.
>
> My aim in soaring has always been to do medium distance (300-500km), relaxed, cross country flying (armchair ride) so with regards to performance and bang-for-buck it ticks the boxes. I am not interested in competition flying. I'd much rather cruise around at 160km/h with an L/D of ~40:1 than blast around at 200+ km/h trying to shave precious seconds off a task.
> I'd like to know more about the glider's vices or problem areas I need to be aware of.
>
> 1. Stall/spin characteristics. How much warning does it give before stalling and does it have any tendency to suddenly drop a wing and spin or can it be considered as one of the docile gliders in the stall/spin category? If it constantly wants to kill me (a pilot issue) I'd rather stay with an Astir and just limit my cross country range.
>
> 2. Pitch sensitivity. The glider has an all flying tail (not a 2B or 2C model). How pitch sensitive is it once trimmed in cruise? Is it twitchy/unstable and need constant attention or is it fairly stable and one doesn't have to constantly fight to keep attitude constant?
>
> 3. Approach control. How effective are the airbrakes? Are outlandings a challenge with the tail chute? Where I fly there are usually plenty of plowed fields at least 300m long and fairly wide (apparently guarded by farmers with shotguns).
>
> Areas I'm aware of:
> - Pitch is sensitive which evidently makes tugging a bit trickier.
> - Long wings and cross winds don't play nicely together on takeoff.
> - Don't go full positive flap on takeoff as the wing may fly before the tail! :-O
> - Roll rate is not snappy and the glider is a bit under ruddered which makes entering thermals a bit more challenging than most 15m ships.
> - Long wings and mediocre airbrakes (compared to Astirs) make out landings more challenging/dangerous.
> - Heavy wings are not an issue as the glider will be hangared and flown conservatively cross country. The odd retrieve shouldn't be a reason to not fly such an awesome old lady.
> - The glider comes with a decent trailer and accessories before someone brings that up.
> - All AD's including tail AD applied.
Hi Surge
I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:

[Surge]

On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
> Hi Surge
> I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:

Hi piotrm
I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
What I would add is:

Rigging:
Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.

Take off:
Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet.

Landing:
Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.

Aerotow:
She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.

[Piotr Mis]

piÄ…tek, 1 stycznia 2021 oÂ*09:11:18 UTC+1 Surge napisaÅ‚(a):
> On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
> > Hi Surge
> > I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:
> Hi piotrm
> I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
> What I would add is:
>
> Rigging:
> Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.
>
> Take off:
> Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
> When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet..
>
> Landing:
> Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
> Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.
>
> Aerotow:
> She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.

Hi Surge
thanks for your reply I really apprecite it as I am getting closer and closer to making a final decision about the purchase. I am glad to see that you do not regret your decision, still enjoy the glider and in general I find your words quite reasurring. I am also relieved to see that you did not experience any particularly dangerous situation (except that near ground loop landing maybe). My ultimate aim is exactly the same as you descrbied it starting this thread: medium distance relaxed cross conutry 300-500 km rather than blasting around 200 km/h and fighting in competitions. As for the storage I am also planning to keep her in a hangar, so handling issue should not be much of a problem. Some dust covers are included in the package and that may help to protect pins and sockets from the dirt.

Perhaps one of my biggest concerns are outlandings. Since I am inexperienced (70 hours on gliders, 100 hours on powered planes) I am not planning oulandings any time soon and I guess having 3 airfields almost within the distance of Nimbus2 49 L/D I don't run much risk of a casulal landing. Even if I happend to have one, the area of Poland where I live is covered with large, smooth fields.
Is landing roll really significantly longer than a "regular" club 15-meter like Astir for example? (assuming that landing procedure is executed fawlessly)
Have you ever tried to use tail parachute on landing?

Did you find anything worth emphasizing about handling the ship during the thermalling/cruise?

From other advice on Nimbus 2 which I got I assume that challenges of flying a glider of this kind are lying more in mental areas (concentration/focus/discipline) rather than area of pure flying technique. I guess my experience of PPL pilot may help here (flaps adjustments, engine rpm adjusments on landings/take-offs etc).
Do you know any place where I could find Nimbus 2 pilot operating handbook? I was trying to find in the internet but the best what I found was Mini Nimbus POH.

best regards
Piotr

[2G]

On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 4:43:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 09:11:18 UTC+1 Surge napisał(a):
> > On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
> > > Hi Surge
> > > I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:
> > Hi piotrm
> > I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
> > What I would add is:
> >
> > Rigging:
> > Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.
> >
> > Take off:
> > Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
> > When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet.
> >
> > Landing:
> > Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
> > Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.
> >
> > Aerotow:
> > She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.
> Hi Surge
> thanks for your reply I really apprecite it as I am getting closer and closer to making a final decision about the purchase. I am glad to see that you do not regret your decision, still enjoy the glider and in general I find your words quite reasurring. I am also relieved to see that you did not experience any particularly dangerous situation (except that near ground loop landing maybe). My ultimate aim is exactly the same as you descrbied it starting this thread: medium distance relaxed cross conutry 300-500 km rather than blasting around 200 km/h and fighting in competitions. As for the storage I am also planning to keep her in a hangar, so handling issue should not be much of a problem. Some dust covers are included in the package and that may help to protect pins and sockets from the dirt.
>
> Perhaps one of my biggest concerns are outlandings. Since I am inexperienced (70 hours on gliders, 100 hours on powered planes) I am not planning oulandings any time soon and I guess having 3 airfields almost within the distance of Nimbus2 49 L/D I don't run much risk of a casulal landing. Even if I happend to have one, the area of Poland where I live is covered with large, smooth fields.
> Is landing roll really significantly longer than a "regular" club 15-meter like Astir for example? (assuming that landing procedure is executed fawlessly)
> Have you ever tried to use tail parachute on landing?
>
> Did you find anything worth emphasizing about handling the ship during the thermalling/cruise?
>
> From other advice on Nimbus 2 which I got I assume that challenges of flying a glider of this kind are lying more in mental areas (concentration/focus/discipline) rather than area of pure flying technique. I guess my experience of PPL pilot may help here (flaps adjustments, engine rpm adjusments on landings/take-offs etc).
> Do you know any place where I could find Nimbus 2 pilot operating handbook? I was trying to find in the internet but the best what I found was Mini Nimbus POH.
>
> best regards
> Piotr

Hi Piotr,

Considering your experience and budget I recommend that you get an ASW19 or a Standard Cirrus. Landing the N2C under normal circumstances is a handful - an outlanding multiplies all of those issues.

Tom

[Piotr Mis]

piÄ…tek, 1 stycznia 2021 oÂ*20:14:42 UTC+1 2G napisaÅ‚(a):
> On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 4:43:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 09:11:18 UTC+1 Surge napisał(a):
> > > On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
> > > > Hi Surge
> > > > I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:
> > > Hi piotrm
> > > I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
> > > What I would add is:
> > >
> > > Rigging:
> > > Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.
> > >
> > > Take off:
> > > Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
> > > When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet.
> > >
> > > Landing:
> > > Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
> > > Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.
> > >
> > > Aerotow:
> > > She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.
> > Hi Surge
> > thanks for your reply I really apprecite it as I am getting closer and closer to making a final decision about the purchase. I am glad to see that you do not regret your decision, still enjoy the glider and in general I find your words quite reasurring. I am also relieved to see that you did not experience any particularly dangerous situation (except that near ground loop landing maybe). My ultimate aim is exactly the same as you descrbied it starting this thread: medium distance relaxed cross conutry 300-500 km rather than blasting around 200 km/h and fighting in competitions. As for the storage I am also planning to keep her in a hangar, so handling issue should not be much of a problem. Some dust covers are included in the package and that may help to protect pins and sockets from the dirt.
> >
> > Perhaps one of my biggest concerns are outlandings. Since I am inexperienced (70 hours on gliders, 100 hours on powered planes) I am not planning oulandings any time soon and I guess having 3 airfields almost within the distance of Nimbus2 49 L/D I don't run much risk of a casulal landing. Even if I happend to have one, the area of Poland where I live is covered with large, smooth fields.
> > Is landing roll really significantly longer than a "regular" club 15-meter like Astir for example? (assuming that landing procedure is executed fawlessly)
> > Have you ever tried to use tail parachute on landing?
> >
> > Did you find anything worth emphasizing about handling the ship during the thermalling/cruise?
> >
> > From other advice on Nimbus 2 which I got I assume that challenges of flying a glider of this kind are lying more in mental areas (concentration/focus/discipline) rather than area of pure flying technique. I guess my experience of PPL pilot may help here (flaps adjustments, engine rpm adjusments on landings/take-offs etc).
> > Do you know any place where I could find Nimbus 2 pilot operating handbook? I was trying to find in the internet but the best what I found was Mini Nimbus POH.
> >
> > best regards
> > Piotr
> Hi Piotr,
>
> Considering your experience and budget I recommend that you get an ASW19 or a Standard Cirrus. Landing the N2C under normal circumstances is a handful - an outlanding multiplies all of those issues.
>
> Tom


Hi Tom

thanks for reply, each opinion/advice is valuable. I managed to get response from the originator of that thread (Surge) who bought Nimbus 2 having around 50 hours of experience. He still owns that glider, flies her happily and nothing bad happend. What I find to be crucial is risk awareness and "risk management". People who are advising me against the choice of Nimbus point out to potential risks and this is very valuable. People who are advising in favour point out how to avoid the risk. I guess you are probably a glider pilot with a lot of experience so do not feel competent to argue from the position of newbee, but I would be interested to learn what is your opinion on a few conclusions I draw:

1. Many people are warning that outlandigs in Nimbus2 kind of glider are much riskier. But isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ? Even from my very limited experience of flying SZD-30 Pirat (L/D 31, sink 0,7m/s) and SZD-51 Junior (L/D 36, sink 0,6m/s) during my SPL training I could see that I was able to stay longer in the air in Junior than in Pirat in the same conditions. I am planning to avoid outlandings anyway during the first 2 years of my "SPL licenced" flying, so I guess that L/D 50 glider should rather help in it? There are a couple of clubs within a distance of 50-70 km from each other in my area so with an average cloud base during the season of c.a. 1500 meters A.G.L. I could assume regular landings on airfields with pretty much certainty, and even in case of an outlanding, there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
Just as Surge, I am not planning to fly in adverse conditions in the beginning (stron winds)

2. Technical difficulties of flying (especially take-offs and landings) - this seems similar to my motorbike experience. Shortly after getting a licence for a motorbike I decided to buy a vintage Ducati Monster 1000cc bike (it was based on high performance racing bike constructed in the 70-ties) which most people warned me against as too dangerous for a beginner and suggested some 600cc with easier handling. I bought Monster however and having all those warnings in the back of my head I drove as safe as possible, avoided speeding etc and nothing bad happened. I have been driving it for a couple of years now and enjoyed it a lot. Paradoxically, it maybe even contributed to improvement of safety of my riding because being aware of higher risks I was seeking advice of more experienced, reading a lot on the biking technique, proper speed/breaking management etc

3. Practical considerations - glider which I am planning to buy is well maintained and has 2300 h to fly to the next service life extension, at the asking price close to that, which most of 15meter club ships have, which are usually sold with between 100 h - 1000 h of flying left until next service life extension.

and besides, I find open gliders just splendid with their slender wings... Although this subject has probably never been raised in this forum, to me, part of the satisfaction of being an owner of a glider comes from the fact of owning/flying a beautiful work of art, which, I believe, the glider is. I guess that explains a lot :)

best regards
Piotr

[Sula]

> isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ?

Smaller, but probably not much smaller. And to become the pilot you want to be, you'll need to get comfortable with outlandings.


> there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.

Yes, much of Poland is very glider-friendly (when crops aren't tall). But after outlanding you have the challenge of de-rigging the Nimbus. For many pilots, that can lead to "Sure, it's a nice day: probably 300+ km. But just a little uncertain. Best not to fly away from home and risk the chance of outlanding."

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Sula wrote on 1/3/2021 7:18 AM:
>> isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ?
>
> Smaller, but probably not much smaller. And to become the pilot you want to be, you'll need to get comfortable with outlandings.

The risk of landing out is determined by the pilot's choices, not the glide ratio. You can fly
a 30:1 glider to the same landout risk as a 50:1 glider, but the 50:1 glider will allow you to
roam over a bigger area for the same risk.


> > there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
>
> Yes, much of Poland is very glider-friendly (when crops aren't tall). But after outlanding you have the challenge of de-rigging the Nimbus. For many pilots, that can lead to "Sure, it's a nice day: probably 300+ km. But just a little uncertain. Best not to fly away from home and risk the chance of outlanding."

As John points out, a large, heavy 50:1 glider that is difficult to retrieve can lead to less
flying, or flying in an area similar to a small, light 30:1 glider that is easy to retrieve.

If you can keep the glider assembled all the time so you can void the lengthy chore of rigging,
if you have a good trailer, and if you have many club members ready and willing to retrieve
you, the Nimbus 2 might be a good choice.

--
Eric Greenwell

[Dan Marotta]

On 1/3/21 8:39 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Sula wrote on 1/3/2021 7:18 AM:
>>> isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5
>>> m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ?
>>
>> Smaller, but probably not much smaller.Â* And to become the pilot you
>> want to be, you'll need to get comfortable with outlandings.
>
> The risk of landing out is determined by the pilot's choices, not the
> glide ratio. You can fly a 30:1 glider to the same landout risk as a
> 50:1 glider, but the 50:1 glider will allow you to roam over a bigger
> area for the same risk.
>
>
>> Â* > there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
>>
>> Yes, much of Poland is very glider-friendly (when crops aren't tall).
>> But after outlanding you have the challenge of de-rigging the Nimbus.
>> For many pilots, that can lead to "Sure, it's a nice day: probably
>> 300+ km.Â* But just a little uncertain. Best not to fly away from home
>> and risk the chance of outlanding."
>
> As John points out, a large, heavy 50:1 glider that is difficult to
> retrieve can lead to less flying, or flying in an area similar to a
> small, light 30:1 glider that is easy to retrieve.
>
> If you can keep the glider assembled all the time so you can void the
> lengthy chore of rigging, if you have a good trailer, and if you have
> many club members ready and willing to retrieve you, the Nimbus 2 might
> be a good choice.
>

Hello Piotr,

Allow me to give advice from a different perspective than those who only
tell you things designed to discourage you from the Nimbus. Having read
your questions and your description of your approach to higher
performance machinery, I would advise you to get the Nimbus with only
one caution: Know yourself and listen to your instructor.

Flying safely and enjoying it depend upon two things: Attitude and
Aptitude. I can see that you have the right attitude. Do you have the
aptitude? You should know and I'm sure your instructors and fellow
pilots will tell you, as well.

Don't worry about friends not coming to your aid because you have heavy
wings. They will come. Likewise, don't reject a glider that you want
because it doesn't have the best possible trailer. Again, they will
come. We are in this sport together and we help each other. Some of
the best memories come from retrieves.

Buy the glider if it is what you want. Fly it conservatively and extend
your wings as your experience and confidence grow. As long as you have
the aptitude and keep the attitude, you won't regret it.

--
Dan
5J

[John Galloway[_2_]]

I would ask "why?" an original model Nimbus 2 rather than "why not?". I can't think of any logical reason to recommend a less experienced pilot to choose one of those nowadays. If you really really want a Nimbus 2 I would look for a Nimbus 2C. It looks the same but is really a very different and much superior glider with a fixed tailplane, much lighter carbon fibre wings, a higher maximum ballasted weight, superb trailing edge brakes and a very low landing speed. I would say that the one I had in the 80s was the easiest glider to put in a small field that I have ever flown. I also rigged it on my own every flying day.

As an aside, be extremely careful about checking all those Hotelier connections before flight.


On Sunday, 3 January 2021 at 17:02:27 UTC, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 1/3/21 8:39 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Sula wrote on 1/3/2021 7:18 AM:
> >>> isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5
> >>> m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ?
> >>
> >> Smaller, but probably not much smaller. And to become the pilot you
> >> want to be, you'll need to get comfortable with outlandings.
> >
> > The risk of landing out is determined by the pilot's choices, not the
> > glide ratio. You can fly a 30:1 glider to the same landout risk as a
> > 50:1 glider, but the 50:1 glider will allow you to roam over a bigger
> > area for the same risk.
> >
> >
> >> > there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
> >>
> >> Yes, much of Poland is very glider-friendly (when crops aren't tall).
> >> But after outlanding you have the challenge of de-rigging the Nimbus.
> >> For many pilots, that can lead to "Sure, it's a nice day: probably
> >> 300+ km. But just a little uncertain. Best not to fly away from home
> >> and risk the chance of outlanding."
> >
> > As John points out, a large, heavy 50:1 glider that is difficult to
> > retrieve can lead to less flying, or flying in an area similar to a
> > small, light 30:1 glider that is easy to retrieve.
> >
> > If you can keep the glider assembled all the time so you can void the
> > lengthy chore of rigging, if you have a good trailer, and if you have
> > many club members ready and willing to retrieve you, the Nimbus 2 might
> > be a good choice.
> >
> Hello Piotr,
>
> Allow me to give advice from a different perspective than those who only
> tell you things designed to discourage you from the Nimbus. Having read
> your questions and your description of your approach to higher
> performance machinery, I would advise you to get the Nimbus with only
> one caution: Know yourself and listen to your instructor.
>
> Flying safely and enjoying it depend upon two things: Attitude and
> Aptitude. I can see that you have the right attitude. Do you have the
> aptitude? You should know and I'm sure your instructors and fellow
> pilots will tell you, as well.
>
> Don't worry about friends not coming to your aid because you have heavy
> wings. They will come. Likewise, don't reject a glider that you want
> because it doesn't have the best possible trailer. Again, they will
> come. We are in this sport together and we help each other. Some of
> the best memories come from retrieves.
>
> Buy the glider if it is what you want. Fly it conservatively and extend
> your wings as your experience and confidence grow. As long as you have
> the aptitude and keep the attitude, you won't regret it.
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J

[2G]

On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 4:15:49 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 20:14:42 UTC+1 2G napisał(a):
> > On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 4:43:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 09:11:18 UTC+1 Surge napisał(a):
> > > > On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
> > > > > Hi Surge
> > > > > I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:
> > > > Hi piotrm
> > > > I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
> > > > What I would add is:
> > > >
> > > > Rigging:
> > > > Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.
> > > >
> > > > Take off:
> > > > Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
> > > > When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet.
> > > >
> > > > Landing:
> > > > Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
> > > > Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.
> > > >
> > > > Aerotow:
> > > > She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.
> > > Hi Surge
> > > thanks for your reply I really apprecite it as I am getting closer and closer to making a final decision about the purchase. I am glad to see that you do not regret your decision, still enjoy the glider and in general I find your words quite reasurring. I am also relieved to see that you did not experience any particularly dangerous situation (except that near ground loop landing maybe). My ultimate aim is exactly the same as you descrbied it starting this thread: medium distance relaxed cross conutry 300-500 km rather than blasting around 200 km/h and fighting in competitions. As for the storage I am also planning to keep her in a hangar, so handling issue should not be much of a problem. Some dust covers are included in the package and that may help to protect pins and sockets from the dirt.
> > >
> > > Perhaps one of my biggest concerns are outlandings. Since I am inexperienced (70 hours on gliders, 100 hours on powered planes) I am not planning oulandings any time soon and I guess having 3 airfields almost within the distance of Nimbus2 49 L/D I don't run much risk of a casulal landing. Even if I happend to have one, the area of Poland where I live is covered with large, smooth fields.
> > > Is landing roll really significantly longer than a "regular" club 15-meter like Astir for example? (assuming that landing procedure is executed fawlessly)
> > > Have you ever tried to use tail parachute on landing?
> > >
> > > Did you find anything worth emphasizing about handling the ship during the thermalling/cruise?
> > >
> > > From other advice on Nimbus 2 which I got I assume that challenges of flying a glider of this kind are lying more in mental areas (concentration/focus/discipline) rather than area of pure flying technique. I guess my experience of PPL pilot may help here (flaps adjustments, engine rpm adjusments on landings/take-offs etc).
> > > Do you know any place where I could find Nimbus 2 pilot operating handbook? I was trying to find in the internet but the best what I found was Mini Nimbus POH.
> > >
> > > best regards
> > > Piotr
> > Hi Piotr,
> >
> > Considering your experience and budget I recommend that you get an ASW19 or a Standard Cirrus. Landing the N2C under normal circumstances is a handful - an outlanding multiplies all of those issues.
> >
> > Tom
> Hi Tom
>
> thanks for reply, each opinion/advice is valuable. I managed to get response from the originator of that thread (Surge) who bought Nimbus 2 having around 50 hours of experience. He still owns that glider, flies her happily and nothing bad happend. What I find to be crucial is risk awareness and "risk management". People who are advising me against the choice of Nimbus point out to potential risks and this is very valuable. People who are advising in favour point out how to avoid the risk. I guess you are probably a glider pilot with a lot of experience so do not feel competent to argue from the position of newbee, but I would be interested to learn what is your opinion on a few conclusions I draw:
>
> 1. Many people are warning that outlandigs in Nimbus2 kind of glider are much riskier. But isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ? Even from my very limited experience of flying SZD-30 Pirat (L/D 31, sink 0,7m/s) and SZD-51 Junior (L/D 36, sink 0,6m/s) during my SPL training I could see that I was able to stay longer in the air in Junior than in Pirat in the same conditions. I am planning to avoid outlandings anyway during the first 2 years of my "SPL licenced" flying, so I guess that L/D 50 glider should rather help in it? There are a couple of clubs within a distance of 50-70 km from each other in my area so with an average cloud base during the season of c.a. 1500 meters A.G.L. I could assume regular landings on airfields with pretty much certainty, and even in case of an outlanding, there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
> Just as Surge, I am not planning to fly in adverse conditions in the beginning (stron winds)
>
> 2. Technical difficulties of flying (especially take-offs and landings) - this seems similar to my motorbike experience. Shortly after getting a licence for a motorbike I decided to buy a vintage Ducati Monster 1000cc bike (it was based on high performance racing bike constructed in the 70-ties) which most people warned me against as too dangerous for a beginner and suggested some 600cc with easier handling. I bought Monster however and having all those warnings in the back of my head I drove as safe as possible, avoided speeding etc and nothing bad happened. I have been driving it for a couple of years now and enjoyed it a lot. Paradoxically, it maybe even contributed to improvement of safety of my riding because being aware of higher risks I was seeking advice of more experienced, reading a lot on the biking technique, proper speed/breaking management etc
>
> 3. Practical considerations - glider which I am planning to buy is well maintained and has 2300 h to fly to the next service life extension, at the asking price close to that, which most of 15meter club ships have, which are usually sold with between 100 h - 1000 h of flying left until next service life extension.
>
> and besides, I find open gliders just splendid with their slender wings.... Although this subject has probably never been raised in this forum, to me, part of the satisfaction of being an owner of a glider comes from the fact of owning/flying a beautiful work of art, which, I believe, the glider is.. I guess that explains a lot :)
>
> best regards
> Piotr

Hi Piotr,

As the say, never say never, and that includes landouts. I had my first landout in my ASW19 in a contest when I was forced to fly in a task I would have aborted earlier. The retrieve for an N2C is just going to be more of a pain in the ass than a 15m glider.

The number of flight hours is, at best, a crude estimate of a pilot's ability. Just because another low-time pilot got away with it doesn't mean you will. Also, luck plays a big part. Being conservative and prudent is ALWAYS advised, regardless of hours. Expecting a higher performance glider to save you from pilot mistakes is a fool's errand. I learned so much from flying my ASW19, especially the occasional landout, that it put me in a great position when I transitioned to higher performance gliders. You just can't buy judgment and skills - that comes with experience.

It sounds like you already have your mind made up and are just looking for confirmation. I would tread carefully.

Tom

[[email protected]]

On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 10:35:58 AM UTC+13, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 4:15:49 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 20:14:42 UTC+1 2G napisał(a):
> > > On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 4:43:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 09:11:18 UTC+1 Surge napisał(a):
> > > > > On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Surge
> > > > > > I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:
> > > > > Hi piotrm
> > > > > I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
> > > > > What I would add is:
> > > > >
> > > > > Rigging:
> > > > > Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands.. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.
> > > > >
> > > > > Take off:
> > > > > Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
> > > > > When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Landing:
> > > > > Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
> > > > > Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Aerotow:
> > > > > She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.
> > > > Hi Surge
> > > > thanks for your reply I really apprecite it as I am getting closer and closer to making a final decision about the purchase. I am glad to see that you do not regret your decision, still enjoy the glider and in general I find your words quite reasurring. I am also relieved to see that you did not experience any particularly dangerous situation (except that near ground loop landing maybe). My ultimate aim is exactly the same as you descrbied it starting this thread: medium distance relaxed cross conutry 300-500 km rather than blasting around 200 km/h and fighting in competitions. As for the storage I am also planning to keep her in a hangar, so handling issue should not be much of a problem. Some dust covers are included in the package and that may help to protect pins and sockets from the dirt.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps one of my biggest concerns are outlandings. Since I am inexperienced (70 hours on gliders, 100 hours on powered planes) I am not planning oulandings any time soon and I guess having 3 airfields almost within the distance of Nimbus2 49 L/D I don't run much risk of a casulal landing. Even if I happend to have one, the area of Poland where I live is covered with large, smooth fields.
> > > > Is landing roll really significantly longer than a "regular" club 15-meter like Astir for example? (assuming that landing procedure is executed fawlessly)
> > > > Have you ever tried to use tail parachute on landing?
> > > >
> > > > Did you find anything worth emphasizing about handling the ship during the thermalling/cruise?
> > > >
> > > > From other advice on Nimbus 2 which I got I assume that challenges of flying a glider of this kind are lying more in mental areas (concentration/focus/discipline) rather than area of pure flying technique. I guess my experience of PPL pilot may help here (flaps adjustments, engine rpm adjusments on landings/take-offs etc).
> > > > Do you know any place where I could find Nimbus 2 pilot operating handbook? I was trying to find in the internet but the best what I found was Mini Nimbus POH.
> > > >
> > > > best regards
> > > > Piotr
> > > Hi Piotr,
> > >
> > > Considering your experience and budget I recommend that you get an ASW19 or a Standard Cirrus. Landing the N2C under normal circumstances is a handful - an outlanding multiplies all of those issues.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > Hi Tom
> >
> > thanks for reply, each opinion/advice is valuable. I managed to get response from the originator of that thread (Surge) who bought Nimbus 2 having around 50 hours of experience. He still owns that glider, flies her happily and nothing bad happend. What I find to be crucial is risk awareness and "risk management". People who are advising me against the choice of Nimbus point out to potential risks and this is very valuable. People who are advising in favour point out how to avoid the risk. I guess you are probably a glider pilot with a lot of experience so do not feel competent to argue from the position of newbee, but I would be interested to learn what is your opinion on a few conclusions I draw:
> >
> > 1. Many people are warning that outlandigs in Nimbus2 kind of glider are much riskier. But isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ? Even from my very limited experience of flying SZD-30 Pirat (L/D 31, sink 0,7m/s) and SZD-51 Junior (L/D 36, sink 0,6m/s) during my SPL training I could see that I was able to stay longer in the air in Junior than in Pirat in the same conditions. I am planning to avoid outlandings anyway during the first 2 years of my "SPL licenced" flying, so I guess that L/D 50 glider should rather help in it? There are a couple of clubs within a distance of 50-70 km from each other in my area so with an average cloud base during the season of c.a. 1500 meters A.G.L. I could assume regular landings on airfields with pretty much certainty, and even in case of an outlanding, there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
> > Just as Surge, I am not planning to fly in adverse conditions in the beginning (stron winds)
> >
> > 2. Technical difficulties of flying (especially take-offs and landings) - this seems similar to my motorbike experience. Shortly after getting a licence for a motorbike I decided to buy a vintage Ducati Monster 1000cc bike (it was based on high performance racing bike constructed in the 70-ties) which most people warned me against as too dangerous for a beginner and suggested some 600cc with easier handling. I bought Monster however and having all those warnings in the back of my head I drove as safe as possible, avoided speeding etc and nothing bad happened. I have been driving it for a couple of years now and enjoyed it a lot. Paradoxically, it maybe even contributed to improvement of safety of my riding because being aware of higher risks I was seeking advice of more experienced, reading a lot on the biking technique, proper speed/breaking management etc
> >
> > 3. Practical considerations - glider which I am planning to buy is well maintained and has 2300 h to fly to the next service life extension, at the asking price close to that, which most of 15meter club ships have, which are usually sold with between 100 h - 1000 h of flying left until next service life extension.
> >
> > and besides, I find open gliders just splendid with their slender wings.... Although this subject has probably never been raised in this forum, to me, part of the satisfaction of being an owner of a glider comes from the fact of owning/flying a beautiful work of art, which, I believe, the glider is. I guess that explains a lot :)
> >
> > best regards
> > Piotr
> Hi Piotr,
>
> As the say, never say never, and that includes landouts. I had my first landout in my ASW19 in a contest when I was forced to fly in a task I would have aborted earlier. The retrieve for an N2C is just going to be more of a pain in the ass than a 15m glider.
>
> The number of flight hours is, at best, a crude estimate of a pilot's ability. Just because another low-time pilot got away with it doesn't mean you will. Also, luck plays a big part. Being conservative and prudent is ALWAYS advised, regardless of hours. Expecting a higher performance glider to save you from pilot mistakes is a fool's errand. I learned so much from flying my ASW19, especially the occasional landout, that it put me in a great position when I transitioned to higher performance gliders. You just can't buy judgment and skills - that comes with experience.
>
> It sounds like you already have your mind made up and are just looking for confirmation. I would tread carefully.
>
> Tom

I replied poster via email directly but I mentioned several things which I was told by Terry Delores who has done many world records and had a Nimbus 2 for quite a long time
The Nimbus 2 coming across the fence at 48 knots is about right but at 52 knots will take twice the distance to stop. Remember her stall is in the mid 30s
The second major point ,Nimbus 2 has a large wing area, just above and as the fence comes under your nose go to full air brake and the glider will run 10-15 meters then will start
to sag downward , control with elevator in flare , she will land firm but not hard with no tendency to jump back in the air , the energy gets washed off in trying to keep her airborne in the
sag /deeply stalled attitude
Gary

[krasw]

These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.

[gregv]

Le lundi 4 janvier 2021 Ã* 11:30:06 UTC+1, krasw a écritÂ*:
> These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.

I own a N2C since years, and I also fly other gliders (mainly discus 2, duodiscus, ls-4), I fly in Alpine area. I disagree when you say thermalling is not fun with The N2C, actually it is the most fun thing to do! You can litteraly outclimb every other ship, handling is superb, light and precise controls, yes you have to manage your feets and you loose 2 seconds when doing -45/+45 but is it an issue? When flying cross country I am faster than a duodiscus in every aspect. With 200L water, I feel unstoppable.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

gregv wrote on 1/4/2021 3:02 AM:
> Le lundi 4 janvier 2021 à 11:30:06 UTC+1, krasw a écrit :
>> These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low speed, nothing else.
>> Their handling in the air is not good and on the ground it is just awful. You will fly
>> less because of this. I usually fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew
>> one summer mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any other type.
>> You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only with lower airspeed duirng glider
>> and taking few more climbs. With a glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun.
>> Saying that thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded walls.
>> There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.
>
> I own a N2C since years, and I also fly other gliders (mainly discus 2, duodiscus, ls-4), I
> fly in Alpine area. I disagree when you say thermalling is not fun with The N2C, actually it
> is the most fun thing to do! You can litteraly outclimb every other ship, handling is
> superb, light and precise controls, yes you have to manage your feets and you loose 2
> seconds when doing -45/+45 but is it an issue? When flying cross country I am faster than a
> duodiscus in every aspect. With 200L water, I feel unstoppable.
>
The original poster is looking at a N2, not an N2C. Is there a significant difference in the
thermalling and the general handling of the two gliders?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[kinsell]

On 1/4/21 3:30 AM, krasw wrote:
> These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.
>

The OP was clear that he wanted "airchair soaring" doing 300-500K tasks.
Apparently he thinks he can buy a carefree experience with long wings.
Maybe his expectations aren't realistic. He also thinks it's a
particularly pretty glider, that shouldn't be a purchase consideration.

[Christoph Barniske]

Eric Greenwell schrieb am Montag, 4. Januar 2021 um 14:30:19 UTC+1:
> The original poster is looking at a N2, not an N2C. Is there a significant difference in the
> thermalling and the general handling of the two gliders?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

The Nimbus 2 series had many changes during the quite short production run. Some are mentioned in the TN/AD list on the Schempp-Hirth website, additional details were given in a Schempp-Hirth book published in the 80s ("Vom Wolf zum Discus"). For example, the N2B introduced a new mixer for flap/aileron deflections (similar to Janus) and changed the all-flying elevator to a conventional one. This should make quite a difference in handling.

Christoph

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 04 Jan 2021 07:43:22 -0700, kinsell wrote:

> On 1/4/21 3:30 AM, krasw wrote:
>> These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low
>> speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the
>> ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually
>> fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer
>> mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any
>> other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only
>> with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a
>> glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that
>> thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded
>> walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.
>>
>>
> The OP was clear that he wanted "airchair soaring" doing 300-500K tasks.
> Apparently he thinks he can buy a carefree experience with long wings.
> Maybe his expectations aren't realistic. He also thinks it's a
> particularly pretty glider, that shouldn't be a purchase consideration.

The OP will be used to good thermal climbs and relatively low XC speeds
from time spent he's spent in an SZD Junior. I know them well. My club
owns two for new solo pilots to fly when transitioning to single seaters,
and I got my Silver in one of them.

Now I fly a Std Libelle and would agree with the nice things others have
said about its thermalling ability. There's very few gliders resident at
my club that can out-climb either a Libelle or a Junior, especially in a
narrow thermal. IMO both are nice to fly though the Libelle is smoother
flying and quite a bit faster XC due to a better high speed polar, though
both Libelle and Junior have the same Vne.

About the Nimbus 2: here's all I know. I once helped an owner put his N2
back in its trailer when I was visiting Sutton Bank. He used a rope and
pulley to slide the wings into what seemed quite a long trailer: I
thought that was a clever trick. That's the only N2 I've seen.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Frank Whiteley]

On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 8:58:17 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2021 07:43:22 -0700, kinsell wrote:
>
> > On 1/4/21 3:30 AM, krasw wrote:
> >> These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low
> >> speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the
> >> ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually
> >> fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer
> >> mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any
> >> other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only
> >> with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a
> >> glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that
> >> thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded
> >> walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.
> >>
> >>
> > The OP was clear that he wanted "airchair soaring" doing 300-500K tasks..
> > Apparently he thinks he can buy a carefree experience with long wings.
> > Maybe his expectations aren't realistic. He also thinks it's a
> > particularly pretty glider, that shouldn't be a purchase consideration.
> The OP will be used to good thermal climbs and relatively low XC speeds
> from time spent he's spent in an SZD Junior. I know them well. My club
> owns two for new solo pilots to fly when transitioning to single seaters,
> and I got my Silver in one of them.
>
> Now I fly a Std Libelle and would agree with the nice things others have
> said about its thermalling ability. There's very few gliders resident at
> my club that can out-climb either a Libelle or a Junior, especially in a
> narrow thermal. IMO both are nice to fly though the Libelle is smoother
> flying and quite a bit faster XC due to a better high speed polar, though
> both Libelle and Junior have the same Vne.
>
> About the Nimbus 2: here's all I know. I once helped an owner put his N2
> back in its trailer when I was visiting Sutton Bank. He used a rope and
> pulley to slide the wings into what seemed quite a long trailer: I
> thought that was a clever trick. That's the only N2 I've seen.
>
>
> --
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
I know virtually nothing about soaring in Poland except what friends have shared. However, I did have 10 1/2 years of UK soaring, ending in the mid-1990's. My experience was that a club member should consult with the chief instructor before buying a glider. If the glider was considered too advanced or complex for the member's level of experience or skill, they wouldn't be permitted to fly it until they exhibited that proficiency. I don't now if the same is true in Poland, but Piotr needs to have that talk perhaps. Some RAF gliders even had plates indicating minimum PIC time required to fly certain gliders. Perhaps things are different now.

Any comment Martin?

Frank Whiteley

[kenward1000]

On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 3:02:52 AM UTC-8, gregv wrote:
> Le lundi 4 janvier 2021 Ã* 11:30:06 UTC+1, krasw a écrit :
> > These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.
> I own a N2C since years, and I also fly other gliders (mainly discus 2, duodiscus, ls-4), I fly in Alpine area. I disagree when you say thermalling is not fun with The N2C, actually it is the most fun thing to do! You can litteraly outclimb every other ship, handling is superb, light and precise controls, yes you have to manage your feets and you loose 2 seconds when doing -45/+45 but is it an issue? When flying cross country I am faster than a duodiscus in every aspect. With 200L water, I feel unstoppable.

Consider the LAK-12. The Russian Sport Gliding Federation used to put newly licensed pilots into them, for XC training. The rationale was that they wanted to hook pilots on XC. They found that putting pilots into 30:1 gliders resulted in many landouts and discouraged pilots from flying away from the field. The 48:1 12 allowed pilots to successfully complete longer and longer XC tasks, especially with 200 liters of water. The clubs had well organized retrieve teams and plenty of large fields to choose from. They are a piece of cake to fly, can be left rigged all season and they're cheap (15k us$). Good decision making can mean that outlandings only occur at aero retrievable airports.

[2G]

On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 12:11:35 PM UTC-8, kenward1000 wrote:
> On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 3:02:52 AM UTC-8, gregv wrote:
> > Le lundi 4 janvier 2021 Ã* 11:30:06 UTC+1, krasw a écrit :
> > > These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.
> > I own a N2C since years, and I also fly other gliders (mainly discus 2, duodiscus, ls-4), I fly in Alpine area. I disagree when you say thermalling is not fun with The N2C, actually it is the most fun thing to do! You can litteraly outclimb every other ship, handling is superb, light and precise controls, yes you have to manage your feets and you loose 2 seconds when doing -45/+45 but is it an issue? When flying cross country I am faster than a duodiscus in every aspect. With 200L water, I feel unstoppable.
> Consider the LAK-12. The Russian Sport Gliding Federation used to put newly licensed pilots into them, for XC training. The rationale was that they wanted to hook pilots on XC. They found that putting pilots into 30:1 gliders resulted in many landouts and discouraged pilots from flying away from the field. The 48:1 12 allowed pilots to successfully complete longer and longer XC tasks, especially with 200 liters of water. The clubs had well organized retrieve teams and plenty of large fields to choose from. They are a piece of cake to fly, can be left rigged all season and they're cheap (15k us$). Good decision making can mean that outlandings only occur at aero retrievable airports.

I reread the original post and noticed that the glider Piotr is talking about is an N2, not an N2C that I saw in a latter post. Knowing this, I definitely recommend that Piotr pass on this glider; he simply doesn't have the experience to handle a glider of this type.

Tom

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 04 Jan 2021 10:08:10 -0800, Frank Whiteley wrote:

> Any comment Martin?
>
Thats pretty much how my club works. Get permission from the committees
to keep a glider on the field and, if they and the CFI are happy, do it.

However, the closest I've been to Poland was Sazena in the Czech
Republic. I a bunch of us were camping on the glider field there, because
it was hosting the 1997 Free Flight Model World Champs.

Learning to fly full-size gliders was still 4 years in the future for me,
but I did notice a well cared for Antonov A-15 in the hangar. I realise
I'm unlikely ever to have the chance to fly one, but its definitely on my
bucket list!

Besides, who can resist a good-looking all-metal V-tailed glider where
the trim control is a length of bungee, its ends attached to the bottom
corners of the panel and hooked to one of a row of hooks on the front of
the stick! As far as I can tell, its performance isn't a lot different to
a Std Libelle. Martin Simons quotes best glide 40:1, an ad for the one I
saw at Sazena claims 37.5:1 at 95 km/h - my Libelle is about 37:1 at
52kts (95 km/h), but the A-15 is a lot heavier at 320 kg.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Ventus_a]

piÄ…tek, 1 stycznia 2021 oÂ*20:14:42 UTC+1 2G napisaÅ‚(a):
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 4:43:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 09:11:18 UTC+1 Surge napisał(a):
On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
Hi Surge
I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:
Hi piotrm
I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
What I would add is:

Rigging:
Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.

Take off:
Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet.

Landing:
Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.

Aerotow:
She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.
Hi Surge
thanks for your reply I really apprecite it as I am getting closer and closer to making a final decision about the purchase. I am glad to see that you do not regret your decision, still enjoy the glider and in general I find your words quite reasurring. I am also relieved to see that you did not experience any particularly dangerous situation (except that near ground loop landing maybe). My ultimate aim is exactly the same as you descrbied it starting this thread: medium distance relaxed cross conutry 300-500 km rather than blasting around 200 km/h and fighting in competitions. As for the storage I am also planning to keep her in a hangar, so handling issue should not be much of a problem. Some dust covers are included in the package and that may help to protect pins and sockets from the dirt.

Perhaps one of my biggest concerns are outlandings. Since I am inexperienced (70 hours on gliders, 100 hours on powered planes) I am not planning oulandings any time soon and I guess having 3 airfields almost within the distance of Nimbus2 49 L/D I don't run much risk of a casulal landing. Even if I happend to have one, the area of Poland where I live is covered with large, smooth fields.
Is landing roll really significantly longer than a "regular" club 15-meter like Astir for example? (assuming that landing procedure is executed fawlessly)
Have you ever tried to use tail parachute on landing?

Did you find anything worth emphasizing about handling the ship during the thermalling/cruise?

From other advice on Nimbus 2 which I got I assume that challenges of flying a glider of this kind are lying more in mental areas (concentration/focus/discipline) rather than area of pure flying technique. I guess my experience of PPL pilot may help here (flaps adjustments, engine rpm adjusments on landings/take-offs etc).
Do you know any place where I could find Nimbus 2 pilot operating handbook? I was trying to find in the internet but the best what I found was Mini Nimbus POH.

best regards
Piotr
Hi Piotr,

Considering your experience and budget I recommend that you get an ASW19 or a Standard Cirrus. Landing the N2C under normal circumstances is a handful - an outlanding multiplies all of those issues.

Tom


Hi Tom

thanks for reply, each opinion/advice is valuable. I managed to get response from the originator of that thread (Surge) who bought Nimbus 2 having around 50 hours of experience. He still owns that glider, flies her happily and nothing bad happend. What I find to be crucial is risk awareness and "risk management". People who are advising me against the choice of Nimbus point out to potential risks and this is very valuable. People who are advising in favour point out how to avoid the risk. I guess you are probably a glider pilot with a lot of experience so do not feel competent to argue from the position of newbee, but I would be interested to learn what is your opinion on a few conclusions I draw:

1. Many people are warning that outlandigs in Nimbus2 kind of glider are much riskier. But isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ? Even from my very limited experience of flying SZD-30 Pirat (L/D 31, sink 0,7m/s) and SZD-51 Junior (L/D 36, sink 0,6m/s) during my SPL training I could see that I was able to stay longer in the air in Junior than in Pirat in the same conditions. I am planning to avoid outlandings anyway during the first 2 years of my "SPL licenced" flying, so I guess that L/D 50 glider should rather help in it? There are a couple of clubs within a distance of 50-70 km from each other in my area so with an average cloud base during the season of c.a. 1500 meters A.G.L. I could assume regular landings on airfields with pretty much certainty, and even in case of an outlanding, there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
Just as Surge, I am not planning to fly in adverse conditions in the beginning (stron winds)

2. Technical difficulties of flying (especially take-offs and landings) - this seems similar to my motorbike experience. Shortly after getting a licence for a motorbike I decided to buy a vintage Ducati Monster 1000cc bike (it was based on high performance racing bike constructed in the 70-ties) which most people warned me against as too dangerous for a beginner and suggested some 600cc with easier handling. I bought Monster however and having all those warnings in the back of my head I drove as safe as possible, avoided speeding etc and nothing bad happened. I have been driving it for a couple of years now and enjoyed it a lot. Paradoxically, it maybe even contributed to improvement of safety of my riding because being aware of higher risks I was seeking advice of more experienced, reading a lot on the biking technique, proper speed/breaking management etc

3. Practical considerations - glider which I am planning to buy is well maintained and has 2300 h to fly to the next service life extension, at the asking price close to that, which most of 15meter club ships have, which are usually sold with between 100 h - 1000 h of flying left until next service life extension.

and besides, I find open gliders just splendid with their slender wings... Although this subject has probably never been raised in this forum, to me, part of the satisfaction of being an owner of a glider comes from the fact of owning/flying a beautiful work of art, which, I believe, the glider is. I guess that explains a lot :)

best regards
Piotr

I've found that extra performance first and foremost gives you the ability to land out further from home

:-) Colin

[Surge]

I like Dan's comments regarding having the right attitude and aptitude and flying conservatively.
If money is not an issue then an older 15m ship is probably going to be a better idea if you plan to fly aggressively. I don't compete so flying conservative 3 to 5 hours flights (300 to 500km) on nice days suites me just fine. If I wanted to fly aggressively I would not have bought the Nimbus 2.

I chose the Nimbus 2 for various reasons:
1. There was nothing available with a 40+:1 L/D within my budget. ASW20's were selling for 3 to 4 times the price and club single seaters were not always available and often had a waiting queue which meant long cross country flights on nice days were not possible.
2. I wanted to have 100% ownership in a glider which I know no one else has broken, mis-rigged, etc. without my knowledge. I saw club gliders being abused or landed hard and then hangared for the next person to fly so safety became a motivating factor.
3. The used glider market in my area is very small with limited demand so purchasing something like an Astir G102 and then being unable to sell it later to upgrade to a higher performance glider wasn't an option.
4. I have long legs and the Nimbus 2 is the only glider I've flown which has a long cockpit I fit in comfortably. Getting cramps in my ankle and calf muscles and having an aching lower back after an hour of flying single Astirs was no longer enjoyable. My long legs ruled out older, affordable 15m ships like Astirs, ASW15, ASW19.
5. The area I fly in has large fields (500m to 1500m long) and often with shorter grass crops so outlandings are less of a risk. That allowed me to remove the tail chute to avoid the "will it deploy when I need it" and "accidental deployment" scenarios. I have the single panel Schempp-Hirth airbrakes so approach control is adequate but not great. If you need to outland in fields less than 500m with obstacles on approach then I would not recommend the Nimbus 2. Fiddling with a tail chute which doesn't want to deploy while trying to outland in a small field is not the sort of risk I want to take..

Each individual has different circumstances, needs and abilities. The Nimbus 2 is not what I would regard as a "sweet ship" so take the advice about the ground handling and less ideal properties seriously before making a decision. One of the other pilots in the club bought a Nimbus 2M and his experience has not been great at all. Having the CofG near the aft limits probably played a large part in that experience.
Have you actually flown a Nimbus 2? I suggest you organise a test flight before making the purchase. Maybe you can organise a dual in something with an all flying elevator like a Janus first.

[Surge]

Here is a copy of my Nimbus 2 Flight and Service Manual as requested.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4augFcqFyDbYUNydDNacVRIYXc/view?usp=drivesdk

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op zondag 3 januari 2021 om 13:15:49 UTC+1 schreef :
> piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 20:14:42 UTC+1 2G napisał(a):
> > On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 4:43:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 09:11:18 UTC+1 Surge napisał(a):
> > > > On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
> > > > > Hi Surge
> > > > > I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:
> > > > Hi piotrm
> > > > I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
> > > > What I would add is:
> > > >
> > > > Rigging:
> > > > Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.
> > > >
> > > > Take off:
> > > > Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
> > > > When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet.
> > > >
> > > > Landing:
> > > > Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
> > > > Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.
> > > >
> > > > Aerotow:
> > > > She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.
> > > Hi Surge
> > > thanks for your reply I really apprecite it as I am getting closer and closer to making a final decision about the purchase. I am glad to see that you do not regret your decision, still enjoy the glider and in general I find your words quite reasurring. I am also relieved to see that you did not experience any particularly dangerous situation (except that near ground loop landing maybe). My ultimate aim is exactly the same as you descrbied it starting this thread: medium distance relaxed cross conutry 300-500 km rather than blasting around 200 km/h and fighting in competitions. As for the storage I am also planning to keep her in a hangar, so handling issue should not be much of a problem. Some dust covers are included in the package and that may help to protect pins and sockets from the dirt.
> > >
> > > Perhaps one of my biggest concerns are outlandings. Since I am inexperienced (70 hours on gliders, 100 hours on powered planes) I am not planning oulandings any time soon and I guess having 3 airfields almost within the distance of Nimbus2 49 L/D I don't run much risk of a casulal landing. Even if I happend to have one, the area of Poland where I live is covered with large, smooth fields.
> > > Is landing roll really significantly longer than a "regular" club 15-meter like Astir for example? (assuming that landing procedure is executed fawlessly)
> > > Have you ever tried to use tail parachute on landing?
> > >
> > > Did you find anything worth emphasizing about handling the ship during the thermalling/cruise?
> > >
> > > From other advice on Nimbus 2 which I got I assume that challenges of flying a glider of this kind are lying more in mental areas (concentration/focus/discipline) rather than area of pure flying technique. I guess my experience of PPL pilot may help here (flaps adjustments, engine rpm adjusments on landings/take-offs etc).
> > > Do you know any place where I could find Nimbus 2 pilot operating handbook? I was trying to find in the internet but the best what I found was Mini Nimbus POH.
> > >
> > > best regards
> > > Piotr
> > Hi Piotr,
> >
> > Considering your experience and budget I recommend that you get an ASW19 or a Standard Cirrus. Landing the N2C under normal circumstances is a handful - an outlanding multiplies all of those issues.
> >
> > Tom
> Hi Tom
>
> thanks for reply, each opinion/advice is valuable. I managed to get response from the originator of that thread (Surge) who bought Nimbus 2 having around 50 hours of experience. He still owns that glider, flies her happily and nothing bad happend. What I find to be crucial is risk awareness and "risk management". People who are advising me against the choice of Nimbus point out to potential risks and this is very valuable. People who are advising in favour point out how to avoid the risk. I guess you are probably a glider pilot with a lot of experience so do not feel competent to argue from the position of newbee, but I would be interested to learn what is your opinion on a few conclusions I draw:
>
> 1. Many people are warning that outlandigs in Nimbus2 kind of glider are much riskier. But isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ? Even from my very limited experience of flying SZD-30 Pirat (L/D 31, sink 0,7m/s) and SZD-51 Junior (L/D 36, sink 0,6m/s) during my SPL training I could see that I was able to stay longer in the air in Junior than in Pirat in the same conditions. I am planning to avoid outlandings anyway during the first 2 years of my "SPL licenced" flying, so I guess that L/D 50 glider should rather help in it? There are a couple of clubs within a distance of 50-70 km from each other in my area so with an average cloud base during the season of c.a. 1500 meters A.G.L. I could assume regular landings on airfields with pretty much certainty, and even in case of an outlanding, there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
> Just as Surge, I am not planning to fly in adverse conditions in the beginning (stron winds)
>
> 2. Technical difficulties of flying (especially take-offs and landings) - this seems similar to my motorbike experience. Shortly after getting a licence for a motorbike I decided to buy a vintage Ducati Monster 1000cc bike (it was based on high performance racing bike constructed in the 70-ties) which most people warned me against as too dangerous for a beginner and suggested some 600cc with easier handling. I bought Monster however and having all those warnings in the back of my head I drove as safe as possible, avoided speeding etc and nothing bad happened. I have been driving it for a couple of years now and enjoyed it a lot. Paradoxically, it maybe even contributed to improvement of safety of my riding because being aware of higher risks I was seeking advice of more experienced, reading a lot on the biking technique, proper speed/breaking management etc
>
> 3. Practical considerations - glider which I am planning to buy is well maintained and has 2300 h to fly to the next service life extension, at the asking price close to that, which most of 15meter club ships have, which are usually sold with between 100 h - 1000 h of flying left until next service life extension.
>
> and besides, I find open gliders just splendid with their slender wings.... Although this subject has probably never been raised in this forum, to me, part of the satisfaction of being an owner of a glider comes from the fact of owning/flying a beautiful work of art, which, I believe, the glider is.. I guess that explains a lot :)
>
> best regards
> Piotr

I had about 80 solo hours before I made the decision to buy my own glider. I was also looking at Nimbus 2, but decided to go for a DG-101. It's 15m standard class (now club) and due to the span and weight, is very easy to climb with. Keep in mind that a heavy 20m ship will be better in banging weather, but when having to fight at 200m ALG on 0 m/s waiting for the thermal to develop, I really do love a smaller and lightweight club class glider. I have never outlanded in my DG 101 and fly between 300 and 500km frequently. It's very easy to rig as well and never had any issues with the L/D of 39 (I have never flown straight at best L/D speed)

Even though the high L/D is nice, L/D is just a number, it doesn't mean that the ship is better than a Std Cirrus. It all depends on experience and your style of flying. If you always fly in super weather with large thermals and over 2 m/s of lift, open class ships will be amazing. In Belgium, we don't have that luxury all the time and have to be happy with 1 up to 2 m/s with few exceptions above 2 m/s. Look at the weather in your area. Are you always going out on the big days or are you happy to fly with weaker days too?

My suggestion would be to look at the Std Cirrus, ASW19, Pegase, Std Libelle, DG-100, DG-300, LS4 (last 2 if budget allows). Those are great all-round gliders which will get you lots of fun and can last a long time. Great rigging, handling, great climbing and performance make these great choices for first gliders.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op dinsdag 5 januari 2021 om 11:46:42 UTC+1 schreef Senna Van den Bosch:
> Op zondag 3 januari 2021 om 13:15:49 UTC+1 schreef :
> > piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 20:14:42 UTC+1 2G napisał(a):
> > > On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 4:43:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 09:11:18 UTC+1 Surge napisał(a):
> > > > > On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Surge
> > > > > > I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:
> > > > > Hi piotrm
> > > > > I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
> > > > > What I would add is:
> > > > >
> > > > > Rigging:
> > > > > Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands.. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.
> > > > >
> > > > > Take off:
> > > > > Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
> > > > > When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Landing:
> > > > > Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
> > > > > Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Aerotow:
> > > > > She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.
> > > > Hi Surge
> > > > thanks for your reply I really apprecite it as I am getting closer and closer to making a final decision about the purchase. I am glad to see that you do not regret your decision, still enjoy the glider and in general I find your words quite reasurring. I am also relieved to see that you did not experience any particularly dangerous situation (except that near ground loop landing maybe). My ultimate aim is exactly the same as you descrbied it starting this thread: medium distance relaxed cross conutry 300-500 km rather than blasting around 200 km/h and fighting in competitions. As for the storage I am also planning to keep her in a hangar, so handling issue should not be much of a problem. Some dust covers are included in the package and that may help to protect pins and sockets from the dirt.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps one of my biggest concerns are outlandings. Since I am inexperienced (70 hours on gliders, 100 hours on powered planes) I am not planning oulandings any time soon and I guess having 3 airfields almost within the distance of Nimbus2 49 L/D I don't run much risk of a casulal landing. Even if I happend to have one, the area of Poland where I live is covered with large, smooth fields.
> > > > Is landing roll really significantly longer than a "regular" club 15-meter like Astir for example? (assuming that landing procedure is executed fawlessly)
> > > > Have you ever tried to use tail parachute on landing?
> > > >
> > > > Did you find anything worth emphasizing about handling the ship during the thermalling/cruise?
> > > >
> > > > From other advice on Nimbus 2 which I got I assume that challenges of flying a glider of this kind are lying more in mental areas (concentration/focus/discipline) rather than area of pure flying technique. I guess my experience of PPL pilot may help here (flaps adjustments, engine rpm adjusments on landings/take-offs etc).
> > > > Do you know any place where I could find Nimbus 2 pilot operating handbook? I was trying to find in the internet but the best what I found was Mini Nimbus POH.
> > > >
> > > > best regards
> > > > Piotr
> > > Hi Piotr,
> > >
> > > Considering your experience and budget I recommend that you get an ASW19 or a Standard Cirrus. Landing the N2C under normal circumstances is a handful - an outlanding multiplies all of those issues.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > Hi Tom
> >
> > thanks for reply, each opinion/advice is valuable. I managed to get response from the originator of that thread (Surge) who bought Nimbus 2 having around 50 hours of experience. He still owns that glider, flies her happily and nothing bad happend. What I find to be crucial is risk awareness and "risk management". People who are advising me against the choice of Nimbus point out to potential risks and this is very valuable. People who are advising in favour point out how to avoid the risk. I guess you are probably a glider pilot with a lot of experience so do not feel competent to argue from the position of newbee, but I would be interested to learn what is your opinion on a few conclusions I draw:
> >
> > 1. Many people are warning that outlandigs in Nimbus2 kind of glider are much riskier. But isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ? Even from my very limited experience of flying SZD-30 Pirat (L/D 31, sink 0,7m/s) and SZD-51 Junior (L/D 36, sink 0,6m/s) during my SPL training I could see that I was able to stay longer in the air in Junior than in Pirat in the same conditions. I am planning to avoid outlandings anyway during the first 2 years of my "SPL licenced" flying, so I guess that L/D 50 glider should rather help in it? There are a couple of clubs within a distance of 50-70 km from each other in my area so with an average cloud base during the season of c.a. 1500 meters A.G.L. I could assume regular landings on airfields with pretty much certainty, and even in case of an outlanding, there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
> > Just as Surge, I am not planning to fly in adverse conditions in the beginning (stron winds)
> >
> > 2. Technical difficulties of flying (especially take-offs and landings) - this seems similar to my motorbike experience. Shortly after getting a licence for a motorbike I decided to buy a vintage Ducati Monster 1000cc bike (it was based on high performance racing bike constructed in the 70-ties) which most people warned me against as too dangerous for a beginner and suggested some 600cc with easier handling. I bought Monster however and having all those warnings in the back of my head I drove as safe as possible, avoided speeding etc and nothing bad happened. I have been driving it for a couple of years now and enjoyed it a lot. Paradoxically, it maybe even contributed to improvement of safety of my riding because being aware of higher risks I was seeking advice of more experienced, reading a lot on the biking technique, proper speed/breaking management etc
> >
> > 3. Practical considerations - glider which I am planning to buy is well maintained and has 2300 h to fly to the next service life extension, at the asking price close to that, which most of 15meter club ships have, which are usually sold with between 100 h - 1000 h of flying left until next service life extension.
> >
> > and besides, I find open gliders just splendid with their slender wings.... Although this subject has probably never been raised in this forum, to me, part of the satisfaction of being an owner of a glider comes from the fact of owning/flying a beautiful work of art, which, I believe, the glider is. I guess that explains a lot :)
> >
> > best regards
> > Piotr
> I had about 80 solo hours before I made the decision to buy my own glider.. I was also looking at Nimbus 2, but decided to go for a DG-101. It's 15m standard class (now club) and due to the span and weight, is very easy to climb with. Keep in mind that a heavy 20m ship will be better in banging weather, but when having to fight at 200m ALG on 0 m/s waiting for the thermal to develop, I really do love a smaller and lightweight club class glider. I have never outlanded in my DG 101 and fly between 300 and 500km frequently. It's very easy to rig as well and never had any issues with the L/D of 39 (I have never flown straight at best L/D speed)
>
> Even though the high L/D is nice, L/D is just a number, it doesn't mean that the ship is better than a Std Cirrus. It all depends on experience and your style of flying. If you always fly in super weather with large thermals and over 2 m/s of lift, open class ships will be amazing. In Belgium, we don't have that luxury all the time and have to be happy with 1 up to 2 m/s with few exceptions above 2 m/s. Look at the weather in your area. Are you always going out on the big days or are you happy to fly with weaker days too?
>
> My suggestion would be to look at the Std Cirrus, ASW19, Pegase, Std Libelle, DG-100, DG-300, LS4 (last 2 if budget allows). Those are great all-round gliders which will get you lots of fun and can last a long time. Great rigging, handling, great climbing and performance make these great choices for first gliders.

EDIT: If you consider flaps, have a look at the Mosquito, PIK20 and Mini Nimbus

[krasw]

And most importantly, buy a glider thinking about daily use. Flying qualities, easy rigging, good trailer, good instruments. It's so easy to bury your head into polars, nice pictures and percents of better LD, which for normal pilot means absolutely nothing. With better performing glider, you get into trouble farther from the home airfield. That's about it.

[Tango Whisky]

When the water is dumped, the N2 is a very light ship (it's all about kg/m2, not about span or total mass) and will outclimb any 15 m ship.

Having said this, you need to be fairly motivated in order to meet the struggle with these old open class ships (are actually just all open class ships) everyday. When I was flying an ASH25 for 2 season, the question was always "Is the weather worth wile rigging?". With a 15 or 18 m ship, the answer is always "Let's just rig, and go and see".

Le mardi 5 janvier 2021 Ã* 11:46:42 UTC+1, a écritÂ*:
> I had about 80 solo hours before I made the decision to buy my own glider.. I was also looking at Nimbus 2, but decided to go for a DG-101. It's 15m standard class (now club) and due to the span and weight, is very easy to climb with. Keep in mind that a heavy 20m ship will be better in banging weather, but when having to fight at 200m ALG on 0 m/s waiting for the thermal to develop, I really do love a smaller and lightweight club class glider. I have never outlanded in my DG 101 and fly between 300 and 500km frequently. It's very easy to rig as well and never had any issues with the L/D of 39 (I have never flown straight at best L/D speed)
>
> Even though the high L/D is nice, L/D is just a number, it doesn't mean that the ship is better than a Std Cirrus. It all depends on experience and your style of flying. If you always fly in super weather with large thermals and over 2 m/s of lift, open class ships will be amazing. In Belgium, we don't have that luxury all the time and have to be happy with 1 up to 2 m/s with few exceptions above 2 m/s. Look at the weather in your area. Are you always going out on the big days or are you happy to fly with weaker days too?
>
> My suggestion would be to look at the Std Cirrus, ASW19, Pegase, Std Libelle, DG-100, DG-300, LS4 (last 2 if budget allows). Those are great all-round gliders which will get you lots of fun and can last a long time. Great rigging, handling, great climbing and performance make these great choices for first gliders.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

krasw wrote on 1/5/2021 3:26 AM:
> And most importantly, buy a glider thinking about daily use. Flying qualities, easy rigging, good trailer, good instruments. It's so easy to bury your head into polars, nice pictures and percents of better LD, which for normal pilot means absolutely nothing. With better performing glider, you get into trouble farther from the home airfield. That's about it.
>
There is more to it than that, which is true if you fly at the same level of risk (safety,
landing out, and weather) with high and low performance gliders. Some pilots, however, enjoy a
XC flight of 200-300 km, and it is much more comfortable to do that in a 50:1 to glider than a
30:1, because it is easier to stay within gliding distance of an airport. For them, working
hard to cover 300 km in a 30:1 glider is not as satisfying as more comfortably enjoying the day
in a 50:1 glider, while doing the same 300km.

The value of L/D also varies with where you fly. Where I live in Washington State, there are
many airports and fallow fields in which to land, and a Ka6 or Blanik can have a decent XC
flight almost any day. That is not true in Nevada, for example, where the 30:1 glider will be
very constrained on where it can fly on most days, compared to a 50:1 glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[BG[_4_]]

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 8:11:44 PM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
> A Nimbus 2 is on the market which I'm interested in as my first glider and I'd like some feedback from those who've owned or flown one.
>
As a previous owner of one of the vintage open class ships, Only under extraordinary circumstances would I ever recommend to anyone to own one. There are so many negatives and about the only reason people make that choice is the L/D for the price, that was my reason which I regretted it.

The plane was kept in hangar to avoid rigging more than once a year. The wheel and air brakes were horrible, good reason it had a drogue chute that was dangerous to use. Above 80 knots it was no better than an older 15 meter. No one ever plans to land out, but it does happen to anyone in any ship. The longer wings are a huge disadvantage, landing in fields was often a better choice over general aviation airstrips with runway obstructions

I now own a DG800 and could not be happier, especially after owning something to compare against.

Buy a modern glider and truly enjoy the experience. Let your experience grow, knowledge with time and be saving for that right glider.

BG

[kenward1000]

On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 11:34:50 PM UTC-8, Surge wrote:
>
> I chose the Nimbus 2 for various reasons:
> 1. There was nothing available with a 40+:1 L/D within my budget. ASW20's were selling for 3 to 4 times the price and club single seaters were not always available and often had a waiting queue which meant long cross country flights on nice days were not possible.
> 2. I wanted to have 100% ownership in a glider which I know no one else has broken, mis-rigged, etc. without my knowledge. I saw club gliders being abused or landed hard and then hangared for the next person to fly so safety became a motivating factor.

Bingo. I'd been flying a club Pegasus 101A for 7 years. Nobody in the club took care of the ship like it deserved. Had a scary flight because previous pilot, post flight, used white electrical tape on the upper aileron gaps, instead of real tape. On tow, had zero roll control as the tape detached, fluttering in the middle but not on the ends, blanketing the ailerons in turbulent airflow. Wanted something better but only had Pegasus money. Bought my LAK-12 for $26K and believed it to be the best bang for the buck, especially now as they're only bringing $15K. Roomy cockpit.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, January 6, 2021 at 11:56:48 AM UTC+13, kenward1000 wrote:
> On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 11:34:50 PM UTC-8, Surge wrote:
> >
> > I chose the Nimbus 2 for various reasons:
> > 1. There was nothing available with a 40+:1 L/D within my budget. ASW20's were selling for 3 to 4 times the price and club single seaters were not always available and often had a waiting queue which meant long cross country flights on nice days were not possible.
> > 2. I wanted to have 100% ownership in a glider which I know no one else has broken, mis-rigged, etc. without my knowledge. I saw club gliders being abused or landed hard and then hangared for the next person to fly so safety became a motivating factor.
> Bingo. I'd been flying a club Pegasus 101A for 7 years. Nobody in the club took care of the ship like it deserved. Had a scary flight because previous pilot, post flight, used white electrical tape on the upper aileron gaps, instead of real tape. On tow, had zero roll control as the tape detached, fluttering in the middle but not on the ends, blanketing the ailerons in turbulent airflow. Wanted something better but only had Pegasus money. Bought my LAK-12 for $26K and believed it to be the best bang for the buck, especially now as they're only bringing $15K. Roomy cockpit.

If you have belly dolly and a remote controlled power rigger a Nimbus 2 is a breeze to rig, I can rig my ship in my backyard (not smooth ground) on my own, the hardest part is the last 10mm as the metal fittings are very tight tolerances, takes about an hour, a tail dolly fitting that makes the glider like a trailer sorts most handling issues on the airfield .
I know someone who had a kestrel 19m who was often near last to derig who fitted a remote controlled boat winch to haul the major sections into his trailer .
With a little thought and basic engineering most issues can be sorted.
Gary

[Andreas Maurer[_2_]]

On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 23:34:48 -0800 (PST), Surge >
wrote:

>Have you actually flown a Nimbus 2? I suggest you organise a test flight before making the purchase. Maybe you can organise a dual in something with an all flying elevator like a Janus first.

I would never lend my Numbus 2 to a pilot with so few hours. Never.

[Piotr Mis]

Å›roda, 6 stycznia 2021 oÂ*08:39:02 UTC+1 Andreas Maurer napisaÅ‚(a):
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 23:34:48 -0800 (PST), Surge >
> wrote:
> >Have you actually flown a Nimbus 2? I suggest you organise a test flight before making the purchase. Maybe you can organise a dual in something with an all flying elevator like a Janus first.
> I would never lend my Numbus 2 to a pilot with so few hours. Never.

ok, so I understand that you consider a flight in Nimbus executed by a 70 hours pilot would be very dangerous to a both glider and pilot. But what exactly are the factors of that danger? is it just "no, because no" type of argumentation or do you mean any particular elements of flying technique / tactics which are neccessary to execute a short, safe flight in good conditions within a gliding range of the airfield, and which a-70-hour pilot cannot possibly have?

[2G]

On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 11:34:50 PM UTC-8, Surge wrote:
> I like Dan's comments regarding having the right attitude and aptitude and flying conservatively.
> If money is not an issue then an older 15m ship is probably going to be a better idea if you plan to fly aggressively. I don't compete so flying conservative 3 to 5 hours flights (300 to 500km) on nice days suites me just fine. If I wanted to fly aggressively I would not have bought the Nimbus 2.
>
> I chose the Nimbus 2 for various reasons:
> 1. There was nothing available with a 40+:1 L/D within my budget. ASW20's were selling for 3 to 4 times the price and club single seaters were not always available and often had a waiting queue which meant long cross country flights on nice days were not possible.
> 2. I wanted to have 100% ownership in a glider which I know no one else has broken, mis-rigged, etc. without my knowledge. I saw club gliders being abused or landed hard and then hangared for the next person to fly so safety became a motivating factor.
> 3. The used glider market in my area is very small with limited demand so purchasing something like an Astir G102 and then being unable to sell it later to upgrade to a higher performance glider wasn't an option.
> 4. I have long legs and the Nimbus 2 is the only glider I've flown which has a long cockpit I fit in comfortably. Getting cramps in my ankle and calf muscles and having an aching lower back after an hour of flying single Astirs was no longer enjoyable. My long legs ruled out older, affordable 15m ships like Astirs, ASW15, ASW19.
> 5. The area I fly in has large fields (500m to 1500m long) and often with shorter grass crops so outlandings are less of a risk. That allowed me to remove the tail chute to avoid the "will it deploy when I need it" and "accidental deployment" scenarios. I have the single panel Schempp-Hirth airbrakes so approach control is adequate but not great. If you need to outland in fields less than 500m with obstacles on approach then I would not recommend the Nimbus 2. Fiddling with a tail chute which doesn't want to deploy while trying to outland in a small field is not the sort of risk I want to take.
>
> Each individual has different circumstances, needs and abilities. The Nimbus 2 is not what I would regard as a "sweet ship" so take the advice about the ground handling and less ideal properties seriously before making a decision. One of the other pilots in the club bought a Nimbus 2M and his experience has not been great at all. Having the CofG near the aft limits probably played a large part in that experience.
> Have you actually flown a Nimbus 2? I suggest you organise a test flight before making the purchase. Maybe you can organise a dual in something with an all flying elevator like a Janus first.

I am (or was) 6' 2" and fit into an ASW19 just fine with the seat back removed.

Tom

[[email protected]]

Dne stÅ™eda 6. ledna 2021Â*vÂ*22:38:36 UTC+1 uživatel napsal:
> środa, 6 stycznia 2021 o 08:39:02 UTC+1 Andreas Maurer napisał(a):
> > On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 23:34:48 -0800 (PST), Surge >
> > wrote:
> > >Have you actually flown a Nimbus 2? I suggest you organise a test flight before making the purchase. Maybe you can organise a dual in something with an all flying elevator like a Janus first.
> > I would never lend my Numbus 2 to a pilot with so few hours. Never.
> ok, so I understand that you consider a flight in Nimbus executed by a 70 hours pilot would be very dangerous to a both glider and pilot. But what exactly are the factors of that danger? is it just "no, because no" type of argumentation or do you mean any particular elements of flying technique / tactics which are neccessary to execute a short, safe flight in good conditions within a gliding range of the airfield, and which a-70-hour pilot cannot possibly have?

Hi,
Im in similar position as you (150H PIC in GLD and TMG) and Im starting scanning market for first glider too. Im not flying Nimbus2 so Im not able to camment in flight characteristics, but Nimbus 2b was bought by another club-member (after about 2- 3years flying XC in low performance gliders) so there are some notes only from ground. Long wings are quite low so you have to watch it, which is challenging when flying in cross-winds and ground runs at takeoff and landings are looong, because this thing is simply heavy. Some folks above sad it can be landed short but you have to be on exactly right speed, OK for airport with stable or no wind and free space before touchdown zone, in not known place and some croswind I woud like to keep some more speed probably, ant then ground run can be quite long. So this combination is for safe outlanding for me big NO, and from my experince in air (sinks can be prety strong) when Im not sure than I can land plane in field I don't leave airport from my sight, so there is no need to have big L/D because you can fly in same are with L13. About flaps I dont right to say nothing because I dont fly plane with them, but I fly TMG and I know that every one lever or button you have to push, need your attention especially when you are learning new plane. And when things are not optimal there is not a small chance you forget something. This is up to you if you thing that in glider that you flying you are enough relaxed so you are able to keep up with more workload.

[Andreas Maurer[_2_]]

On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:38:34 -0800 (PST), Piotr Mis
> wrote:

>?roda, 6 stycznia 2021 o*08:39:02 UTC+1 Andreas Maurer napisa?(a):
>> On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 23:34:48 -0800 (PST), Surge >
>> wrote:
>> >Have you actually flown a Nimbus 2? I suggest you organise a test flight before making the purchase. Maybe you can organise a dual in something with an all flying elevator like a Janus first.
>> I would never lend my Numbus 2 to a pilot with so few hours. Never.
>
>ok, so I understand that you consider a flight in Nimbus executed by a 70 hours pilot would be very dangerous to a both glider and pilot. But what exactly are the factors of that danger? is it just "no, because no" type of argumentation or do you mean any particular elements of flying technique / tactics which are neccessary to execute a short, safe flight in good conditions within a gliding range of the airfield, and which a-70-hour pilot cannot possibly have?

Well, under normal circmstances a Nimbus 2 is as harmless as any
ASK-21 (I only have some experience in the Numbus 2C).

But, given your limited experience with gliders that are very, very
easy to fly: You are, sorry to say that, not yet qualified to fly a
Nimbus 2.

Given a careful briefing and some additional training in something
similar (Janus, et cetera) you'll probably be able to fly it safely,
but I would never take the risk to lend ***my*** complex glider to
someone with your credentials showing up one afternoon.


One more advice:
Do not over-estimate the performance of an open class glider. I've
been flying one for ages (some kind of ASH-25, with much, much better
performance than a Nimbus 2), and the performance advantage over old
15m class (ASW-20, LS-3) is about 20 percent.

The Nimbus is much too light - to make it perform, you must fly it
with lots of water ballast. Always.
Without water ballast, the old 15m class is going to outperform a
Nimbus in anything but very slow straight flight or extremely weak
thermals - these situations make perhaps 5 percent of all flying.

Combine that with the fear of landing out (safe landing, disassembly
of a heavy, complex glider, big trailer) - and think twice about
buying something a lot easier to handle. Something you simply pull out
of the trailer, put the wings on and fly after 15 minutes.


Cheers
Andreas

[Andreas Maurer[_2_]]

On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 15:14:07 -0800 (PST), 2G >
wrote:


>I am (or was) 6' 2" and fit into an ASW19 just fine with the seat back removed.


6'7" here. ASW-20 fits perfectly. :)

Cheers
Andreas

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 02:52:15 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:

> On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 15:14:07 -0800 (PST), 2G >
> wrote:
>
>
>>I am (or was) 6' 2" and fit into an ASW19 just fine with the seat back
>>removed.
>
>
> 6'7" here. ASW-20 fits perfectly. :)
>

ASW-19, ASW-20 and Pegase all use the same fuselage, so if you're
comfortable in one you will be happy sitting in any of them.


An extra to Andreas' previous comments: I've just discovered, rather to
my amusement, that the all-metal, 18m Open class Antonov A-15 has, on
paper at least, near-identical performance to a Standard Libelle (in
terms of glide ratio and stalling, best-glide and Vne speeds) despite
being around 100kg heavier.

However, I've only ever seen one A-15, at the Sazena, Czechoslovakia club
in 1997. Its quite a pretty glider and I've always wondered how nice they
are to fly: there were several airworthy examples around 20 years ago:
are there any still flying?


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Martin Gregorie wrote on 1/7/2021 5:18 AM:
> On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 02:52:15 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 15:14:07 -0800 (PST), 2G >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I am (or was) 6' 2" and fit into an ASW19 just fine with the seat back
>>> removed.
>>
>>
>> 6'7" here. ASW-20 fits perfectly. :)
>>
>
> ASW-19, ASW-20 and Pegase all use the same fuselage, so if you're
> comfortable in one you will be happy sitting in any of them.
>
>
> An extra to Andreas' previous comments: I've just discovered, rather to
> my amusement, that the all-metal, 18m Open class Antonov A-15 has, on
> paper at least, near-identical performance to a Standard Libelle (in
> terms of glide ratio and stalling, best-glide and Vne speeds) despite
> being around 100kg heavier.
>
> However, I've only ever seen one A-15, at the Sazena, Czechoslovakia club
> in 1997. Its quite a pretty glider and I've always wondered how nice they
> are to fly: there were several airworthy examples around 20 years ago:
> are there any still flying?

Wikipedia lists it with a 17 m span. Were there variants? It looks so much like a Schreder
design (HP-14, etc), I'm wondering if it also had 90 degree flaps and the same structure. With
350 produced, according to Wikipedia, it seems there should still be many around, somewhere.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 06:25:57 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> Martin Gregorie wrote on 1/7/2021 5:18 AM:
>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 02:52:15 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 15:14:07 -0800 (PST), 2G >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I am (or was) 6' 2" and fit into an ASW19 just fine with the seat
>>>> back removed.
>>>
>>>
>>> 6'7" here. ASW-20 fits perfectly. :)
>>>
>>>
>> ASW-19, ASW-20 and Pegase all use the same fuselage, so if you're
>> comfortable in one you will be happy sitting in any of them.
>>
>>
>> An extra to Andreas' previous comments: I've just discovered, rather to
>> my amusement, that the all-metal, 18m Open class Antonov A-15 has, on
>> paper at least, near-identical performance to a Standard Libelle (in
>> terms of glide ratio and stalling, best-glide and Vne speeds) despite
>> being around 100kg heavier.
>>
>> However, I've only ever seen one A-15, at the Sazena, Czechoslovakia
>> club in 1997. Its quite a pretty glider and I've always wondered how
>> nice they are to fly: there were several airworthy examples around 20
>> years ago: are there any still flying?
>
> Wikipedia lists it with a 17 m span. Were there variants? It looks so
> much like a Schreder design (HP-14, etc), I'm wondering if it also had
> 90 degree flaps and the same structure. With 350 produced, according to
> Wikipedia, it seems there should still be many around, somewhere.

18m was my mistake - should have written 17m - but some sources do say it
was an 18m glider. Sources disagree on its and weight performance too.

It uses Fowler flaps and Martin Simons says the ailerons droop with them,
but I haven't found any description of what the maximum flap angle would
be. Since the flaps form the underside of the TE when retracted, it seems
unlikely that setting them negative is possible. It has conventional top-
surface airbrakes with a single, perforated paddle.

It can carry up to 50kg of water.

I do wonder how much benefit its retractable undercarriage is, because
only half the wheel is visible when extended and the fuselage seems to
sit quite close to the ground, so you might expect landout damage to its
undersurface.

I've not seen any references to different versions.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Piotr Mis]

czwartek, 7 stycznia 2021 oÂ*02:50:24 UTC+1 Andreas Maurer napisaÅ‚(a):
> On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:38:34 -0800 (PST), Piotr Mis
> > wrote:
>
> >?roda, 6 stycznia 2021 o 08:39:02 UTC+1 Andreas Maurer napisa?(a):
> >> On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 23:34:48 -0800 (PST), Surge >
> >> wrote:
> >> >Have you actually flown a Nimbus 2? I suggest you organise a test flight before making the purchase. Maybe you can organise a dual in something with an all flying elevator like a Janus first.
> >> I would never lend my Numbus 2 to a pilot with so few hours. Never.
> >
> >ok, so I understand that you consider a flight in Nimbus executed by a 70 hours pilot would be very dangerous to a both glider and pilot. But what exactly are the factors of that danger? is it just "no, because no" type of argumentation or do you mean any particular elements of flying technique / tactics which are neccessary to execute a short, safe flight in good conditions within a gliding range of the airfield, and which a-70-hour pilot cannot possibly have?
> Well, under normal circmstances a Nimbus 2 is as harmless as any
> ASK-21 (I only have some experience in the Numbus 2C).
>
> But, given your limited experience with gliders that are very, very
> easy to fly: You are, sorry to say that, not yet qualified to fly a
> Nimbus 2.
>
> Given a careful briefing and some additional training in something
> similar (Janus, et cetera) you'll probably be able to fly it safely,
> but I would never take the risk to lend ***my*** complex glider to
> someone with your credentials showing up one afternoon.
>
>
> One more advice:
> Do not over-estimate the performance of an open class glider. I've
> been flying one for ages (some kind of ASH-25, with much, much better
> performance than a Nimbus 2), and the performance advantage over old
> 15m class (ASW-20, LS-3) is about 20 percent.
>
> The Nimbus is much too light - to make it perform, you must fly it
> with lots of water ballast. Always.
> Without water ballast, the old 15m class is going to outperform a
> Nimbus in anything but very slow straight flight or extremely weak
> thermals - these situations make perhaps 5 percent of all flying.
>
> Combine that with the fear of landing out (safe landing, disassembly
> of a heavy, complex glider, big trailer) - and think twice about
> buying something a lot easier to handle. Something you simply pull out
> of the trailer, put the wings on and fly after 15 minutes.
>
>
> Cheers
> Andreas

Thanks Andreas, I am saving all remarks/advice/comments from all of you in a separate file to come back to them and re-read it if I actually buy that Nimbus (I am still weighing pros and cons, plus currently I need to wait until COVID travelling restrictions are lifted to be able to conclude the deal).
From yours and others' comments I conclude that in order to stay on the safe side I must give much consideration to flying conditions (no strong cross winds) and landing spots because of long landing roll. Since I am quite determined to refrain myself from any attempts of long distance xc flying in the first or two years (which I would want ta avoid in any type of glider, also 15m), or attempts of flying in strong cross wind, then I guess that with those two factors of danger ruled out (or at least reduced as much as possible) flying Nimbus should to be pretty harmless as you write.
Maybe it seems to make no sense to get Nimbus for near airfield flying, but I would rather get something which outsizes me a bit in the beginning and grow up to it gradually then getting any 15m of that age availabe. My budget is limited and that particular Nimbus seems to be a bargain, being in really good shape, having already had 3000h service life extension inspection with 2300 hours of flying till next inspection. Other 15m gliders of its age have usually aroun 500-100 hours left before costly 3000h inspection.
Question of hard rigging is of course an issue, but I am planning to keep it hangared for the season (one month = 23 EUR) with taking only wing tips off after flying.
Aside from rational arguments I got the similar feeling as I had buying my motorbike: Ducati Monster 1000 ie. Everyone was saying it was an old fashioned, dangerous, defective, inconvinient bike and a more modern Japanese machine would make much more sense. I agreed it shurely would. Then I bought Monster and I love it :)

best reg
Piotr

[Piotr Mis]

czwartek, 7 stycznia 2021 oÂ*00:19:50 UTC+1 napisaÅ‚(a):
> Dne středa 6. ledna 2021 v 22:38:36 UTC+1 uživatel napsal:
> > środa, 6 stycznia 2021 o 08:39:02 UTC+1 Andreas Maurer napisał(a):
> > > On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 23:34:48 -0800 (PST), Surge >
> > > wrote:
> > > >Have you actually flown a Nimbus 2? I suggest you organise a test flight before making the purchase. Maybe you can organise a dual in something with an all flying elevator like a Janus first.
> > > I would never lend my Numbus 2 to a pilot with so few hours. Never.
> > ok, so I understand that you consider a flight in Nimbus executed by a 70 hours pilot would be very dangerous to a both glider and pilot. But what exactly are the factors of that danger? is it just "no, because no" type of argumentation or do you mean any particular elements of flying technique / tactics which are neccessary to execute a short, safe flight in good conditions within a gliding range of the airfield, and which a-70-hour pilot cannot possibly have?
> Hi,
> Im in similar position as you (150H PIC in GLD and TMG) and Im starting scanning market for first glider too. Im not flying Nimbus2 so Im not able to camment in flight characteristics, but Nimbus 2b was bought by another club-member (after about 2- 3years flying XC in low performance gliders) so there are some notes only from ground. Long wings are quite low so you have to watch it, which is challenging when flying in cross-winds and ground runs at takeoff and landings are looong, because this thing is simply heavy. Some folks above sad it can be landed short but you have to be on exactly right speed, OK for airport with stable or no wind and free space before touchdown zone, in not known place and some croswind I woud like to keep some more speed probably, ant then ground run can be quite long. So this combination is for safe outlanding for me big NO, and from my experince in air (sinks can be prety strong) when Im not sure than I can land plane in field I don't leave airport from my sight, so there is no need to have big L/D because you can fly in same are with L13. About flaps I dont right to say nothing because I dont fly plane with them, but I fly TMG and I know that every one lever or button you have to push, need your attention especially when you are learning new plane. And when things are not optimal there is not a small chance you forget something. This is up to you if you thing that in glider that you flying you are enough relaxed so you are able to keep up with more workload.

Thank you very much for a comment, I am glad to get some input from someone who is facing a similar type of dilemma :)
Your remarks seem to confirm most of the warnings that I get. For some reason, though, I believe that paradoxicaly, flying a glider which sort of "outsizes" my skills may increase rather than decrease the safety. Why? I experienced a similar thing when I began to ride a motorbike. I bought one which was too strong, too fast, too dangerous for me in opinions of many people.. Knowing that, I drove it very very carefully for the first two years, and here I am, still riding it and enjoying a lot. If you get something which is said to be easy to fly, then you start off with a mindset of flying an easy glider. Are there really "easy" gliders? the ones in which you can make a 55% bank turn before a final at 60km/h speed at 30m AGL?
I am no expert but I guess even the "safest" glider would kill you. Of course you would say that no experienced pilot would ever do it, but interestingly, even exeperience is not a guarantee of safety. Recently I came across a study of glider accidents conducted by French "Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses (BEA) pour la Sécurité de l'Aviation civile" concerning gliding accidents in France 1999-2001. It shows that in 114 accidents 16 were caused by pilots with less than 100 hours experience, and 98 by those with more than 100 h experience. Those caused by less then 100h pilots resulted in 1 death, thouse by more than 100h resulted in 19 deaths.
I guess after all it is JUDGMENT which is crucial, not glider type, experience etc. And maybe a bit of luck? ... :)

best regards
Piotr

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Piotr Mis wrote on 1/9/2021 3:19 PM:
> Recently I came across a study of glider accidents conducted by French "Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses (BEA) pour la Sécurité de l'Aviation civile" concerning gliding accidents in France 1999-2001. It shows that in 114 accidents 16 were caused by pilots with less than 100 hours experience, and 98 by those with more than 100 h experience. Those caused by less then 100h pilots resulted in 1 death, thouse by more than 100h resulted in 19 deaths.
> I guess after all it is JUDGMENT which is crucial, not glider type, experience etc. And maybe a bit of luck? ...

Do not take any comfort in those numbers. The _exposure_ to risk is much higher in pilots with
over 100 hours, compared to those with less than 100 hours. It does not make sense to compare
the number of accidents at less than 100 hours, to those that might have 1000 hours, or 5000
hours. It also does not take note of the number of pilots flying with over 100 hours, which is
likely many more than those with less than 100 hours.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Ultimately, it's still your own decision what you buy, and depending on your skill, your club or CFI might allow it.
At our club, we have some pretty high demands. In order to fly solo on our Duo Discus, you need 75 hours solo, LS4 is 40 hours. If you were to buy something like Std Cirrus, Libelle or LS4, you need to have flown over 40 hours and at least 5 flights with the clubs LS4's. If you were to buy a flapped glider like Mosquito, PIK20, Mini Nimbus, you need to be solo on our Duo Discus (so 75 hours solo flight total) and flown at least 5 flights with a flapped glider in double with an instructor. Since we don't have a flapped glider owned by the club, there is a private Arcus owned by an instructor who you can pay to train.

[Tango Whisky]

At the clubs I have flown so far, the club or CFI have no say about what private glider a club member buys or flies. There is some counselling, though..

Le lundi 11 janvier 2021 Ã* 10:31:05 UTC+1, a écritÂ*:
> Ultimately, it's still your own decision what you buy, and depending on your skill, your club or CFI might allow it.
> At our club, we have some pretty high demands. In order to fly solo on our Duo Discus, you need 75 hours solo, LS4 is 40 hours. If you were to buy something like Std Cirrus, Libelle or LS4, you need to have flown over 40 hours and at least 5 flights with the clubs LS4's. If you were to buy a flapped glider like Mosquito, PIK20, Mini Nimbus, you need to be solo on our Duo Discus (so 75 hours solo flight total) and flown at least 5 flights with a flapped glider in double with an instructor. Since we don't have a flapped glider owned by the club, there is a private Arcus owned by an instructor who you can pay to train.

[Dan Marotta]

On 1/11/21 2:31 AM, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> Ultimately, it's still your own decision what you buy, and depending on your skill, your club or CFI might allow it.
> At our club, we have some pretty high demands. In order to fly solo on our Duo Discus, you need 75 hours solo, LS4 is 40 hours. If you were to buy something like Std Cirrus, Libelle or LS4, you need to have flown over 40 hours and at least 5 flights with the clubs LS4's. If you were to buy a flapped glider like Mosquito, PIK20, Mini Nimbus, you need to be solo on our Duo Discus (so 75 hours solo flight total) and flown at least 5 flights with a flapped glider in double with an instructor. Since we don't have a flapped glider owned by the club, there is a private Arcus owned by an instructor who you can pay to train.
>

Or you could just buy a self-launcher and tell the club, "Thanks, but no
thanks."

--
Dan
5J

[George Haeh]

40 hours before flying an LS-4?!

It has to be the easiest flying glider I've ever been in. I've heard that some European clubs put students in it for their first single seater.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 10:42:56 -0800, George Haeh wrote:

> 40 hours before flying an LS-4?!
>
> It has to be the easiest flying glider I've ever been in. I've heard
> that some European clubs put students in it for their first single
> seater.

Club rules etc....do differ between countries

My post-solo experience is, I think, fairly typical for anybody learning
to fly in one of the bigger UK clubs.

I was sent solo on an ASK-21 at 16 hours (80 launches - almost all
winched - I got my spin sign-off off winch launches followed by thermal
climbs in an ASK-21 WITHOUT tail weights - with an instructor who taught
me to spin it in normal W&B. After soloing in the ASK-21 I converted to
the SZD Junior at a bit over 17 hours and 10 more launches, which I flew
for another 33 hours and 100 launches - quite a lot of those being 6 min
sled rides during two liftless British winters. I got my Silver C flying
the Junior in my second solo summer.

I'd gotten an aero-tow sign-off that summer (7 of those launches) and
flew another 9 aero tows at Boulder and Williams before converting to a
nice Pegase 101 at Williams.

Back at the UK ranch again, I started to fly the club's high-performance
fleet - Discus B and Pegase 90, together with a variety of gliders at
other sites, which included UK hill sites, Paraparaumu and Omarama in NZ
and Die Wasserkuppe, adding another 100 launches and 170 hours, mainly in
the Pegase, before I bought my own glider.

In reading the above, bear in mind that my club has a pair of Juniors
flown by immediate post-solo pilots in summer and by anybody who wants to
stay current in winter as well as three decent Standard-class gliders.
There's also a tradition of organising expeditions to hill sites in early
October when thermals have quit for the year. Both of these factors tend
to lengthen the time most pilots spend in club gliders before thinking
about buying one.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Piotr Mis]

poniedziaÅ‚ek, 11 stycznia 2021 oÂ*21:21:38 UTC+1 Martin Gregorie napisaÅ‚(a):
> On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 10:42:56 -0800, George Haeh wrote:
>
> > 40 hours before flying an LS-4?!
> >
> > It has to be the easiest flying glider I've ever been in. I've heard
> > that some European clubs put students in it for their first single
> > seater.
> Club rules etc....do differ between countries
>
> My post-solo experience is, I think, fairly typical for anybody learning
> to fly in one of the bigger UK clubs.
>
> I was sent solo on an ASK-21 at 16 hours (80 launches - almost all
> winched - I got my spin sign-off off winch launches followed by thermal
> climbs in an ASK-21 WITHOUT tail weights - with an instructor who taught
> me to spin it in normal W&B. After soloing in the ASK-21 I converted to
> the SZD Junior at a bit over 17 hours and 10 more launches, which I flew
> for another 33 hours and 100 launches - quite a lot of those being 6 min
> sled rides during two liftless British winters. I got my Silver C flying
> the Junior in my second solo summer.
>
> I'd gotten an aero-tow sign-off that summer (7 of those launches) and
> flew another 9 aero tows at Boulder and Williams before converting to a
> nice Pegase 101 at Williams.
>
> Back at the UK ranch again, I started to fly the club's high-performance
> fleet - Discus B and Pegase 90, together with a variety of gliders at
> other sites, which included UK hill sites, Paraparaumu and Omarama in NZ
> and Die Wasserkuppe, adding another 100 launches and 170 hours, mainly in
> the Pegase, before I bought my own glider.
>
> In reading the above, bear in mind that my club has a pair of Juniors
> flown by immediate post-solo pilots in summer and by anybody who wants to
> stay current in winter as well as three decent Standard-class gliders.
> There's also a tradition of organising expeditions to hill sites in early
> October when thermals have quit for the year. Both of these factors tend
> to lengthen the time most pilots spend in club gliders before thinking
> about buying one.
> --
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Yes, I see your point, but the reality of clubs in my country (Poland) probably differ quite much. To be honest I am sick and tired of queueing for a club glider, being at the mercy of whimsical instructors and wasting time when I am not lucky enough to "deserve" a glider. I am by no means an experienced pilot, but with near 600 take-offs/landings in powered planes/ultralights/gliders I guess I am not completely ignorant?...

[Piotr Mis]

poniedziaÅ‚ek, 11 stycznia 2021 oÂ*10:31:05 UTC+1 napisaÅ‚(a):
> Ultimately, it's still your own decision what you buy, and depending on your skill, your club or CFI might allow it.
> At our club, we have some pretty high demands. In order to fly solo on our Duo Discus, you need 75 hours solo, LS4 is 40 hours. If you were to buy something like Std Cirrus, Libelle or LS4, you need to have flown over 40 hours and at least 5 flights with the clubs LS4's. If you were to buy a flapped glider like Mosquito, PIK20, Mini Nimbus, you need to be solo on our Duo Discus (so 75 hours solo flight total) and flown at least 5 flights with a flapped glider in double with an instructor. Since we don't have a flapped glider owned by the club, there is a private Arcus owned by an instructor who you can pay to train.

Hi
thanks for making an interesting point. I had already tried to figure this out and I spoke with the head of the gliding section of our flying club to make sure I won't get in trouble (I had mentioned to him I was going to buy my own glider but at that time wasn't planning to get Nimbus). He told me that as long as glider would be formally proven to be airworty, would have all valid papers etc, the choice of is solely up to the owner and no restrictions are imposed by the club. He told me that Nimbus may not be the best choice, but neither did he tell me that I was completely crazy....

Purchase is not yet made because COVID restrictions keep me in my country. I am also considering 15m gliders but for the budget I have, I don't see anything worth attention at the moment. No matter what the outcome of all that will be, getting all those comments/advice from more experienced pilots is a great value in itself....

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 13:51:27 -0800, Piotr Mis wrote:

> Yes, I see your point, but the reality of clubs in my country (Poland)
> probably differ quite much. To be honest I am sick and tired of queueing
> for a club glider, being at the mercy of whimsical instructors and
> wasting time when I am not lucky enough to "deserve" a glider. I am by
> no means an experienced pilot, but with near 600 take-offs/landings in
> powered planes/ultralights/gliders I guess I am not completely
> ignorant?...

What control do the Chief Instructor and/or the club management committee
have over members who want to buy private gliders in Poland?

My experience when a low time pilot suggests that completing all three
legs of your Silver C in a Junior would be a good thing to do before
buying your own glider. Would declaring that aim get you better access to
a Junior? They may be slow, but they climb very well and I've heard that
Polish pilots have flown 300km triangles in them.

Visiting other clubs and flying any gliders they have that your club
doesn't is useful experience too. Sitting in them helps too: for
instance, sitting in almost anything else shows you how little you can
see behind you from a Junior, and that is very important to know when
sharing a thermal with more than 5 or 6 other gliders.

Just doing that got me my first flights in an ASK-13, Grob Astir G.102,
DG-300, PW-5, ASK-23 (the German Junior) and Standard Libelle. It also
showed me that the Libelle is by far the nicest of all these for comfort,
handling and all-round visibility - and also has the weakest airbrakes!


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[John Foster]

On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 2:53:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> poniedziałek, 11 stycznia 2021 o 10:31:05 UTC+1 napisał(a):
> > Ultimately, it's still your own decision what you buy, and depending on your skill, your club or CFI might allow it.
> > At our club, we have some pretty high demands. In order to fly solo on our Duo Discus, you need 75 hours solo, LS4 is 40 hours. If you were to buy something like Std Cirrus, Libelle or LS4, you need to have flown over 40 hours and at least 5 flights with the clubs LS4's. If you were to buy a flapped glider like Mosquito, PIK20, Mini Nimbus, you need to be solo on our Duo Discus (so 75 hours solo flight total) and flown at least 5 flights with a flapped glider in double with an instructor. Since we don't have a flapped glider owned by the club, there is a private Arcus owned by an instructor who you can pay to train.
> Hi
> thanks for making an interesting point. I had already tried to figure this out and I spoke with the head of the gliding section of our flying club to make sure I won't get in trouble (I had mentioned to him I was going to buy my own glider but at that time wasn't planning to get Nimbus). He told me that as long as glider would be formally proven to be airworty, would have all valid papers etc, the choice of is solely up to the owner and no restrictions are imposed by the club. He told me that Nimbus may not be the best choice, but neither did he tell me that I was completely crazy....
>
> Purchase is not yet made because COVID restrictions keep me in my country.. I am also considering 15m gliders but for the budget I have, I don't see anything worth attention at the moment. No matter what the outcome of all that will be, getting all those comments/advice from more experienced pilots is a great value in itself....


I may be WAY off-base here, but one thing you may consider, is to get Condor 2 and play around with some of the gliders, particularly the longer wing-span ones like the JS1 and EB29, so you can see how long-winged gliders handle on the ground. I know these are nothing like the Nimbus 2, and in fact, I think the only one that remotely comes close would be the Standard Cirrus with its all-flying tail. Just something to consider. But again, I may be way off here.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 2:53:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> poniedziałek, 11 stycznia 2021 o 10:31:05 UTC+1 napisał(a):
> > Ultimately, it's still your own decision what you buy, and depending on your skill, your club or CFI might allow it.
> > At our club, we have some pretty high demands. In order to fly solo on our Duo Discus, you need 75 hours solo, LS4 is 40 hours. If you were to buy something like Std Cirrus, Libelle or LS4, you need to have flown over 40 hours and at least 5 flights with the clubs LS4's. If you were to buy a flapped glider like Mosquito, PIK20, Mini Nimbus, you need to be solo on our Duo Discus (so 75 hours solo flight total) and flown at least 5 flights with a flapped glider in double with an instructor. Since we don't have a flapped glider owned by the club, there is a private Arcus owned by an instructor who you can pay to train.
> Hi
> thanks for making an interesting point. I had already tried to figure this out and I spoke with the head of the gliding section of our flying club to make sure I won't get in trouble (I had mentioned to him I was going to buy my own glider but at that time wasn't planning to get Nimbus). He told me that as long as glider would be formally proven to be airworty, would have all valid papers etc, the choice of is solely up to the owner and no restrictions are imposed by the club. He told me that Nimbus may not be the best choice, but neither did he tell me that I was completely crazy....
>
> Purchase is not yet made because COVID restrictions keep me in my country.. I am also considering 15m gliders but for the budget I have, I don't see anything worth attention at the moment. No matter what the outcome of all that will be, getting all those comments/advice from more experienced pilots is a great value in itself....
I was under the impression that Poland was full of Jantars. at least at one time. I had a share of a Jantar Std 2 and it had pretty honest performance and was very comfortable though the reach to the panel was a stretch. It seems to fit long pilots and has a tall undercarriage which is good for out landings. Certainly capable of XC flying and usually good performance for the price.

Frank Whiteley

[BG[_4_]]

On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 1:53:20 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> poniedziałek, 11 stycznia 2021 o 10:31:05 UTC+1 napisał(a):
> > Ultimately, it's still your own decision what you buy, and depending on your skill, your club or CFI might allow it.
I can share an experience in my club that points to the need to control private pilots with low time flying aircraft they are not ready for. This person bought a ASW 20 right after their solo endorsement and nearly killed himself on the flight while we watched in horror. He did a very low energy skidding turn to final and entered a spin about one wingspan from the ground. The plane impacted the ground going sideways. Had he been higher, it would have likely be a fatal accident. He was banned from the club and never got another tow from us. Who a club tows is in their control.

Another issue is the risk you are imposing on the tow pilot. Most of these older ships have CG hooks that provide little help in directional control. Kiting is also a killer. My club lost a towpilot this last year due to kiting.

BG

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op maandag 11 januari 2021 om 19:42:58 UTC+1 schreef :
> 40 hours before flying an LS-4?!
>
> It has to be the easiest flying glider I've ever been in. I've heard that some European clubs put students in it for their first single seater.
These are just our club rules, as I said, they have pretty high standards :)
You are free to leave the club and go somewhere else where they don't have these rules though.

Yes you can buy whatever you like, but if the CFI or other instructors think it is unsafe for a low experience pilot to suddenly fly a flapped glider or open class, you are not allowed to take off.
If you do this on weekdays, you can get banned.

We train new students on 2 ASK13, then after they have 10 solo flights, transition to our 3 ASK8's. When you have 20 hours of solo experience, you can fly the SZD Junior. At 30 hours you can fly our 2 Grob Twin Astirs. At 40 hours and having passed your exams and got your licence, you can fly our 2 LS4's and Pegase. Then after 75 solo hours is our Duo Discus. They are however rebuilding these rules since many clubs around us fly glass as trainer and solo like the G103 Twin Astir and G102 Astir.

Most of our income is from ASK8's though, low cost, all repairs can be done by club members and they fly every day. At a price of 0.08 EUR per minute, it's hard to resist an hour in an ASK8 on a weak day :)

Anyway, back on topic. If you are allowed to fly a Nimbus as a low hour pilot, consider yourself lucky. Some clubs, like mine, have very weird rules when it comes to private gliders, as we already have so many private pilots. The reason I bought mine is because I don't want to fly an hour only to be called back down because 4 other members want to fly that glider. I wanted to do my own thing and fly as far and long as I wanted. Some wonder why I even bought it in the first place, as I fly my DG 101 less than 30 hours a year. It's just my way of flying and enjoying my hobby. Make sure you like what you're going to do and enjoy it. Everyone enjoys the hobby in a different way.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 21:34:49 -0800, BG wrote:

> I can share an experience in my club that points to the need to control
> private pilots with low time flying aircraft they are not ready for.
> This person bought a ASW 20 right after their solo endorsement and
> nearly killed himself on the flight while we watched in horror. He did
> a very low energy skidding turn to final and entered a spin about one
> wingspan from the ground. The plane impacted the ground going sideways.
> Had he been higher, it would have likely be a fatal accident. He was
> banned from the club and never got another tow from us. Who a club tows
> is in their control.
>
Does your club own any benign single seat gliders, e.g. a 1-26, Ka-8 or
Junior that new solo pilots can transition to?

If not, what guidance or rules does your club have to protect early solo
pilots (and tuggies) from the sort of incident you describe? If nobody
pointed out why buying an ASW-20 was a really bad idea for a new solo,
then banning him sounds rather harsh.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dan Marotta]

John Foster wrote:

> I may be WAY off-base here, but one thing you may consider, is to get Condor 2 and play around with some of the gliders, particularly the longer wing-span ones like the JS1 and EB29, so you can see how long-winged gliders handle on the ground. I know these are nothing like the Nimbus 2, and in fact, I think the only one that remotely comes close would be the Standard Cirrus with its all-flying tail. Just something to consider. But again, I may be way off here.
>


Regarding advice given on buying a Nimbus 2 as a first glider: It's
been over 40 years, but I seem to recall a series of partial
differential equations which describe the flight characteristics of an
aircraft.

I wonder, do the developers of Condor have access to these equations for
each aircraft that they model and, if so, how did they get them? Or are
they simply making a guess as to how a particular glider actually performs?

--
Dan
5J

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Saturday, January 9, 2021 at 5:31:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> From yours and others' comments I conclude that in order to stay on the safe side I must give much consideration to flying conditions (no strong cross winds) and landing spots because of long landing roll. Since I am quite determined to refrain myself from any attempts of long distance xc flying in the first or two years (which I would want ta avoid in any type of glider, also 15m), or attempts of flying in strong cross wind, then I guess that with those two factors of danger ruled out (or at least reduced as much as possible) flying Nimbus should to be pretty harmless as you write.
>
> best reg
> Piotr

Hi Piotr,

I think I commented on this thread a couple of years back, but just to re-emphasize. If you are not completely comfortable flying and landing the glider in a wide range of conditions, then I think that itself answers your question about whether you are ready. As an instructor, I emphasize with every student that each flight could be an off-field landing. Not just tow emergencies, but mis-judging conditions, getting caught by a sudden weather change, etc. So, while you have the right attitude about wanting to be conservative in your initial cross-country approach, starting with the assumption that you will not land off-field is a bad idea.

Looking at the data from my club (a mid-sized club in the US), we have at least 2-3 off-airport landings each year NOT related to intentional XC flight. One example was a nice, summer day last year. The pilot flying his ASW-24 on a hot summer day was only 15 miles away at 2000M when a set of clouds suddenly turned into a thunderstorm with heavy rain. He ended up getting caught with the storm between him and the airport and had to make a very tricky off-airport landing only a mile away from the home airport. In another example, a pilot flying the "local ridge" ran into weakening conditions and made the conservative choice to land in a big field rather than to try a marginal glide to home.

There's a difference between price and value. Not everything that comes at a low price is a good value. At least think about that before you make the move.

Erik Mann (P3).

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

BG wrote on 1/11/2021 9:34 PM:
> Another issue is the risk you are imposing on the tow pilot. Most of these older ships have CG hooks that provide little help in directional control. Kiting is also a killer. My club lost a towpilot this last year due to kiting.

My ASW20C came with only a CG hook. After several years, I retrofitted it with a nose hook. The
improvement on takeoff was significant, and it was also better in the air. A very worthwhile
change, I thought, and I had about a 1000 hours at the time.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Dan Marotta]

On 1/12/21 12:02 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> BG wrote on 1/11/2021 9:34 PM:
>> Another issue is the risk you are imposing on the tow pilot.Â* Most of
>> these older ships have CG hooks that provide little help in
>> directional control.Â*Â* Kiting is also a killer.Â* My club lost a
>> towpilot this last year due to kiting.
>
> My ASW20C came with only a CG hook. After several years, I retrofitted
> it with a nose hook. The improvement on takeoff was significant, and it
> was also better in the air. A very worthwhile change, I thought, and I
> had about a 1000 hours at the time.
>

Curious - How does fitting a nose hook make a '20 "better in the air"?
Is it because of a larger opening in the nose? I thought the '20 got
its ventilation via NACA scoops under the wings. Am I missing something?

--
Dan
5J

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dan Marotta wrote on 1/12/2021 11:39 AM:
> On 1/12/21 12:02 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> BG wrote on 1/11/2021 9:34 PM:
>>> Another issue is the risk you are imposing on the tow pilot.* Most of these older ships have
>>> CG hooks that provide little help in directional control.** Kiting is also a killer.* My
>>> club lost a towpilot this last year due to kiting.
>>
>> My ASW20C came with only a CG hook. After several years, I retrofitted it with a nose hook.
>> The improvement on takeoff was significant, and it was also better in the air. A very
>> worthwhile change, I thought, and I had about a 1000 hours at the time.
>>
>
> Curious - How does fitting a nose hook make a '20 "better in the air"? Is it because of a
> larger opening in the nose?* I thought the '20 got its ventilation via NACA scoops under the
> wings.* Am I missing something?
>
"Better in the air" referred to being on tow, off the ground. Once the rope is gone - no change.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[John Foster]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 11:08:01 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
>
> There's a difference between price and value. Not everything that comes at a low price is a good value. At least think about that before you make the move.
>
> Erik Mann (P3).

This is the dilemma I see so often with new glider pilots: finding an affordable first glass ship. It seems the recommendations are always to steer away from the cheaper first generation glass under $10k because they are "tricky to fly", and to leave them for more experienced pilots. The trouble is that flying club ships often limits your hours, as you have to share them with other club members, which takes longer to build up experience. Also, there are many clubs in the US that are on life-support financially, and club ships are often limited to the "venerable" 2-33 or other such low-performance aircraft, and really don't give any valuable experience in preparing towards transitioning to better glass ships. People often have to go out of their way to get experience even in ships like a G103. In today's economy, many new pilots can't cough up $15k to $25k for the "better" glass ships that would be more suitable as a first glass ship, so are forced to look at less expensive options, if they want to continue in the sport/hobby. I really wish more clubs had the resources to adequately transition folks from the low-performance trainers to the higher performance glass ships. Sure there are well-established clubs in locations that have the inventory and resources to do this, but these are getting fewer and farther between (at least in the US). My own experience has reflected this and has been very frustrating at times. I found a Bolkow Phoebus A1 at a very affordable price, and have managed to get it back in flying condition after a long time in a hanger attic. However, I've also been counselled that it is not suitable for a low-time pilot for many of the same reasons mentioned above for the Nimbus 2. The one club I was a member of refused to tow me in my Phoebus until I got checked out in it by an instructor, but the club instructors refused to help me with that, because they didn't have the experience themselves, and the club didn't have any appropriate club gliders that could be used for that. And there are no private members at the club who have private two-seaters that will provide adequate experience to transition into my Phoebus. I have to travel 4hrs or more just to find a club or glider operation in the first place. And then there is only a 2-33 or IS 28B Lark to rent, and am only able to fly for 1hr at the most. Landing out is strongly discouraged, so getting XC experience is basically not available there. The other place is almost 5hr drive. There I have access to a G103, but instructor and tow fees are significantly higher, and I can spent $1500 in 2 days easily. If I'm going to continue in this sport I need to be able to fly more frequently, and for much cheaper. It is difficult to build experience when you can only fly 3-4 times a year for 2-3 hrs at a time. And I know I'm not alone in this. If I were to follow the advise people are giving me about buying a "more suitable" first glass ship, I'd need to step away from soaring for probably 5-10 yrs while I save money to be able to afford one of the "more suitable" gliders.

You may ask "what about a more affordable low-performance glider like a 1-26 or K6 or K8?" The answer is, I want something I can fly cross country in.. Yes, these can be flown cross country, but you will get good at landing out due to their low glide ratio and poor wind penetration. Where I live, there are not a lot of good places to land out, due to small fenced farm fields, and LOTS of forests/mountains. So I would be mostly stuck flying around within gliding range of the airport. I'd get bored with that pretty quickly, wouldn't you?

So, in summary, I feel the OP's and other posters pain. Higher performance gliders under $10,000 are usually unsuitable for low-time glider pilots because they are too much to handle, and lower performance options typically don't have the XC potential of the higher performance options (at least when flying over "tiger country", or in my case, grizzly bear country), and don't offer much in transitioning to higher performance more appropriate options. And unless you have a well-established club with a large fleet/selection of training/transitional gliders, or one flush with capital that can purchase more appropriate XC training gliders, you are SOL (unless you can plop down $15k-$25k) on a more "appropriate" first glass ship. Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

> Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.
>
Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
scene.

I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.

What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.

How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?

Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[John Foster]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:
>
> > Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.
> >
> Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
> scene.
>
> I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
> they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.
>
> What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
> the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
> Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.
>
> How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?
>
> Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000.

"Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900).

Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 4:35:53 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations..
> > >

I'm completely sympathetic to that dilemma. I'm doing something about it in my club. Over the last 10 years we've upgraded from an all Schweizer-Iron to a "modern" (aka only 40 years old designs) fleet. We have a 2-33, three 1-26s, a 1-34, Pilatus, Grob Twin Astir, LS4, and LS3. Several of those ships came through club member donations. All of the last 3 were basket cases that we bought cheap or were donated. Weand spent hundreds of hours refinishing. Today, we have a reasonable fleet (by US standards at least). I have over 400 hours in personally on the refinish projects, and our total club effort is north of 1500 hours.

Anyway, not to contribute further to thread drift, but the solution is there in the form of going back to the way clubs were built in the last generation. Read Kai Gertsen's book sometime.

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 4:58:03 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 4:35:53 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.
> > > >
> I'm completely sympathetic to that dilemma. I'm doing something about it in my club. Over the last 10 years we've upgraded from an all Schweizer-Iron to a "modern" (aka only 40 years old designs) fleet. We have a 2-33, three 1-26s, a 1-34, Pilatus, Grob Twin Astir, LS4, and LS3. Several of those ships came through club member donations. All of the last 3 were basket cases that we bought cheap or were donated. Weand spent hundreds of hours refinishing. Today, we have a reasonable fleet (by US standards at least). I have over 400 hours in personally on the refinish projects, and our total club effort is north of 1500 hours.
>
> Anyway, not to contribute further to thread drift, but the solution is there in the form of going back to the way clubs were built in the last generation. Read Kai Gertsen's book sometime.

Hit post a bit prematurely. The other obvious option is a partnership. 2 folks have twice the buying power of 1. Yeah, there will be some conflicts, but you'll be surprised how many times one or the other partner has other obligations and the ship just sits, even on good days. When I've spent time in Europe, it seems like most ships are owned in partnerships..

P3

[Dan Marotta]

On 1/12/21 12:44 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Dan Marotta wrote on 1/12/2021 11:39 AM:
>> On 1/12/21 12:02 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> BG wrote on 1/11/2021 9:34 PM:
>>>> Another issue is the risk you are imposing on the tow pilot.Â* Most
>>>> of these older ships have CG hooks that provide little help in
>>>> directional control.Â*Â* Kiting is also a killer.Â* My club lost a
>>>> towpilot this last year due to kiting.
>>>
>>> My ASW20C came with only a CG hook. After several years, I
>>> retrofitted it with a nose hook. The improvement on takeoff was
>>> significant, and it was also better in the air. A very worthwhile
>>> change, I thought, and I had about a 1000 hours at the time.
>>>
>>
>> Curious - How does fitting a nose hook make a '20 "better in the air"?
>> Is it because of a larger opening in the nose?Â* I thought the '20 got
>> its ventilation via NACA scoops under the wings.Â* Am I missing something?
>>
> "Better in the air" referred to being on tow, off the ground. Once the
> rope is gone - no change.
>
Got it, thanks!

--
Dan
5J

[Piotr Mis]

wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 oÂ*22:35:53 UTC+1 napisaÅ‚(a):
> On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations..
> > >
> > Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
> > scene.
> >
> > I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
> > they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.
> >
> > What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
> > the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
> > Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water..
> >
> > How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?
> >
> > Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Martin | martin at
> > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000.
>
> "Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900).
>
> Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.

Hi Martin
thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic :). My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club.
What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality.. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all...
Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks.
There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence.

After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging.. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 13:35:51 -0800, John Foster wrote:

> Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000.
>
Cheaper that here, then: I got mine for GBP 7,500 in 2006 and last time I
heard a price, they were changing hands for GBP 13,000 - thats due to
Club Class and a decent handicap and because they're nice to fly -
provided you don't have wide shoulders.

> Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000.
>
I can't comment because I've never seen one (there are very few in the
UK), but they are flapped, so not a first glider.

IME the main thing that needs getting used to when converting to a
flapped glider is using the flap lever rather than the trim as your
primary speed control. It takes time to be at the point where you're
always in the right flap setting, so quite similar to getting used to
driving a stick shift car when you've learned to drive in a car with
automatic transmission.

> Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings
> between $8,500 to $10,000.
>
Not surprising as no more are being made, they seem to be popular, and
there being enough around to make competing in a one-design class
attractive has to make them more desirable.

> One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for
> $4,500 to $5,000.
>
Ka6s have done good things - back when they were fairly new, on a
particularly good day with a northerly, three started from separate
airfields in Southern Germany, joined up in the middle of France and all
landed on the same airfield just short of the Pyrenees on the Spanish
border. Again, I've seen them round and helped to rig them, but never
flown one.

> "Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an
> ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000.
>
A Danish Friend had one and liked it, but said his only had a CG hook
which was offset a long way from the centre line, so it needed a lot of
rudder and still swung quite a bit at the start of an aero tow. Apart
from that, I've heard that:

- the aileron pushrods are supported by sets of three nylon rollers at
120 degrees round the rod. Controls get V stiff if these get gunged up
and are apparently hell to clean

- the wings skins are glass/balsa/glass sandwiches, but so are the wing
skins on on my old Libelle and its not a problem on mine (which is
always kept in its trailer ot pegged out with covers on.

- the spars are box beams with a balsa web on both front and rear sides,
IIRC the webs are painted on the outside but not on the inside, where
they tended to grow mold so in the UK and the EU the annual inspection
requires the spar interiors to be inspected with a bore scope.

He may still have his '15 - I haven't heard from him for quite a while.

> Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as
> a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model
> with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for
> $19,900).
>
I've sat in one of the later ones, with conventional elevator, but
haven't flown one. The cockpit is HUGE - almost anybody should fit in
them fairly easily provided they are below the max. pilot weight. Going
to a conventional elevator apparently made them a lot easier to fly, but
probably means that a nice one will get top dollar when sold.

> Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything
> that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that
> is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the
> 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.

I hope some of this is useful info.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:02:28 -0800, Piotr Mis wrote:

> Hi Martin thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option
> for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other
> side of Atlantic :).
>
Sure. That summary wasn't really for you, though I thought you'd probably
read it. About all we see in the UK in the way of eastern aircraft are
Juniors, Puchacz and Perkoz, (my club has all three types), a few Pirats
and PW-5s and maybe a Russia or two.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Mark Mocho]

Piotr-

It appears you have learned the most important thing: You get good judgment by surviving bad judgment.

Your life experience with other "risky" activities shows that you most definitely have the maturity and experience to take a chance with an older high performance glider. Whether the Nimbus 2 is the right choice, I cannot say, but considering your willingness to look to others for advice, and your obvious willingness to actually LISTEN to that advice demonstrates that you aren't the type to just pitch your testicles out in front of the plane and try to catch them before they hit the ground.

Do some more research, talk to others and don't take any chances in the early stages of learning to fly whatever you buy. No nasty or questionable weather conditions, no charging off from the field on XC flights until you are completely comfortable landing at your home airstrip in a variety of conditions. Experiment (slowly) with high approaches, low approaches, extended patterns, abbreviated patterns, vary your approach speeds to determine your touchdown and rollout characteristics. In short, practice what it takes to deal with an off field landing before you HAVE to try one.

I say buy the thing. Inspect it carefully, get completely familiar with the cockpit and the controls and be really conservative in the first flights. And in all the subsequent flights, for that matter. Have fun, and remember that the one of the biggest rewards in aviation is flying as long as you can without anyone getting to say, "I told you so."

[krasw]

On Wednesday, 13 January 2021 at 01:02:30 UTC+2, wrote:
> wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 o 22:35:53 UTC+1 napisał(a):
> > On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.
> > > >
> > > Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
> > > scene.
> > >
> > > I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
> > > they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.
> > >
> > > What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
> > > the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
> > > Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.
> > >
> > > How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?
> > >
> > > Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > Martin | martin at
> > > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> > There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000.
> >
> > "Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900).
> >
> > Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.
> Hi Martin
> thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic :). My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
> My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club.
> What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all...
> Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether.. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks.
> There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence.
>
> After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart

Piotr, buying your own glider is the best decision you can make in this sport. I have no doubt you can fly N2 safely, it just requires more discipline and respect than smaller gliders. If your options are N2 or nothing, go for N2.

[Me]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 5:02:30 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 o 22:35:53 UTC+1 napisał(a):
> > On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.
> > > >
> > > Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
> > > scene.
> > >
> > > I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
> > > they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.
> > >
> > > What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
> > > the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
> > > Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.
> > >
> > > How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?
> > >
> > > Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > Martin | martin at
> > > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> > There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000.
> >
> > "Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900).
> >
> > Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.
> Hi Martin
> thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic :). My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
> My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club.
> What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all...
> Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether.. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks.
> There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence.
>
> After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart

On that budget the obvious choice is partnership, not Nimbus 2. And in my opinion the only option if you want a 38:1 or better glider. That's what I did when I was in that situation, purchasing a benign flying good performing sailplane and it worked out great. A few years later I purchased my partners portion and owned the glider outright. A great path to ownership. Then a few years after that with over 1000 hours I upgraded to a higher performance, more complicated glider.

[Me]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 5:02:30 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> wtorek, 12 stycznia 2021 o 22:35:53 UTC+1 napisał(a):
> > On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.
> > > >
> > > Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
> > > scene.
> > >
> > > I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
> > > they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.
> > >
> > > What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
> > > the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
> > > Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.
> > >
> > > How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?
> > >
> > > Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > Martin | martin at
> > > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> > There is a Pegase 101 for sale right now on Wings & Wheels for $24,000. Standard Libelles (two) between $14,000 and $16,000. Two H301 Libelles are listed at $10,000 and $19,000. You can get them for less, but are usually in rough shape for less than $10,000. No G102 listed on W & W right now, but from what I remember, they are typically between $15,000 to $20,000. There is a G104 listed for $20,500. Even the old 1-26 seems to be going up in price, with current listings between $8,500 to $10,000. One Ka6CR listed for $6,000, and recent Ka8B have listed for $4,500 to $5,000.
> >
> > "Marginally appropriate" (maybe not) for first glass ship would be an ASW 15 (not B model) for $7,000. Then there is the Standard Cirrus (again, maybe not the best choice as a first glass ship) for between $12,000 to $20,000 (one is a G81 model with conventional elevator/stabilizer instead of all-flying tail, for $19,900).
> >
> > Otherwise you are looking at typically $20,000 to $40,000 for anything that people would traditionally recommend as a "first glass ship" that is "appropriate" for a low-time pilot, particularly one trained on the 2-33, as most training is done here in the USA.
> Hi Martin
> thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic :). My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
> My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly. I get all sorts of good advice of "why don't you buy LS4 or ASW20 etc". Well...I would. If I had money, as they all are twice my budget. And waiting a few more years to save is not an option. I started flying late, I am 53 now and I am sick and tired of being pushed around with teenagers in waiting queues for club gliders. I would rather run a risk of flying a challenging glider than spend next few years saving for a better one or collecting miserable 10 - 15 hours of experience in a season because of limited access to equipment in the club.
> What you wrote in your previous is also true for our polish gliding reality. Many people wishing to fly, few gliders, "privileged" members, constant struggle to fly at least 1 or 2 hours before passing the glider to others, or not flying at all...
> Therefore I decided to either get my own glider or stop flying altogether.. I joined this thread on the forum becasue I was curious of opinions of more experienced pilots about my intention to get Nimbus. Tremendous value of this excercise was that people draw my attention of what could be possible advantages and drawbacks.
> There were some opinions categorically dissuading me from the purchase. I gave particular attention to them, but after getting also many positive opinions I come to conclusion that most or utmost probably it is just the same like any other skill you learn. Persuing my other hobbies throughout my whole life I spent thousands of hours doing more or less risky things; I learned skiing well enough to become a skiing instructor, I learned windsurifing, kitesurfing, roller-blading, I learned to ride a motorbike, I have done probably 1 500 000 km of car driving without accident, I learned to fly powered planes and got PPL licence.
>
> After all that I believe that ultimate factor of safety is good judgement and probably ability and bit of luck . Judgment of own capabilities, judgment of circumstances, judgment of conditions, you name it. Having flown my modest 170h I have almost never been reprimanded by my instructors for making any stupid/dangerous things. Yet some other guy who started gliding course with me nearly landed in someone's backyard, and yet another one once made downwind, straight-in approach being so low, that he practically slid onto the airfield with no air-brakes, close to stall speed. Both of them flew very safe and easy to fly single seatters (SZD-30 Pirat). I guess you can do very dangerous things in the safest glider, or you can fly safely more complex glider if you ensure that weather, landing area is not too challenging. I don't believe somehow that flying characteristics of two gliders could be worlds apart. I rather believe that flying mentalities could be worlds apart

Also..., I'm starting to see some red flags. I went to the classifieds you pointed to as a source and saw an apparently completely suitable well taken care of DG-100. Have you looked/inquired about at that glider? Seems a major red flag to me that you seem to have narrowed your "options" to the Nimbus 2 when a completely suitable glider that matches your skill level exactly is available. Are you sure your Nimbus decision isn't about something else? And you've never replied what your instructor recommendation is in this regard. Something is wrong.

[Waveguru]

Does anybody remember Lenny The Lurker......?


Boggs

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 11:29:07 -0800, Waveguru wrote:

> Does anybody remember Lenny The Lurker......?
>
>
Yep, but not exactly what glider he fancied. SGS 1.26?

That WAS a long time ago!


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Andreas Maurer[_2_]]

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:02:28 -0800 (PST), Piotr Mis
> wrote:


>Hi Martin
>thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic :). My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
>My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly.

Hi Piotr,

plenty of really nice gliders in your price range on segelflug.de.

Think twice about an ASW-15, DG-100G, LS-1, and Standard Cirrus. Or
treat yourself to an Astir and have plenty of money left for a lot of
flying.


I'd dare to predict that one of those will be lot more fun in the long
ruin, and all of these gliders have one huge advantege: They can be
sold easily if you should decide to upgrade in the future.


Cheers
Andreas

p.s.
I'm from Germany, so, if you need some advice or help, feel free to
email me.

[kinsell]

On 1/14/21 5:20 AM, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:02:28 -0800 (PST), Piotr Mis
> > wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Martin
>> thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic :). My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
>> My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly.
>
> Hi Piotr,
>
> plenty of really nice gliders in your price range on segelflug.de.
>
> Think twice about an ASW-15, DG-100G, LS-1, and Standard Cirrus. Or
> treat yourself to an Astir and have plenty of money left for a lot of
> flying.
>
>
> I'd dare to predict that one of those will be lot more fun in the long
> ruin, and all of these gliders have one huge advantege: They can be
> sold easily if you should decide to upgrade in the future.
>

Another huge advantage, is they don't have that all-flying tail, which
was quickly designed out of the Nimbus line, for good reason.

[John Galloway[_2_]]

On Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 14:49:17 UTC, kinsell wrote:
> On 1/14/21 5:20 AM, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:02:28 -0800 (PST), Piotr Mis
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Hi Martin
> >> thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic :). My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
> >> My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly.
> >
> > Hi Piotr,
> >
> > plenty of really nice gliders in your price range on segelflug.de.
> >
> > Think twice about an ASW-15, DG-100G, LS-1, and Standard Cirrus. Or
> > treat yourself to an Astir and have plenty of money left for a lot of
> > flying.
> >
> >
> > I'd dare to predict that one of those will be lot more fun in the long
> > ruin, and all of these gliders have one huge advantege: They can be
> > sold easily if you should decide to upgrade in the future.
> >
> Another huge advantage, is they don't have that all-flying tail, which
> was quickly designed out of the Nimbus line, for good reason.

The late models DG100G, LS1F and Grob built Std Cirruses have conventional tailplanes. Earlier variants of those 3, and the ASW 15 have all flying tailplanes.

[John Foster]

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 11:43:37 AM UTC-7, John Galloway wrote:
> On Thursday, 14 January 2021 at 14:49:17 UTC, kinsell wrote:
> > On 1/14/21 5:20 AM, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:02:28 -0800 (PST), Piotr Mis
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> Hi Martin
> > >> thanks for your hints, but Wings and Wheels is not an option for me, as I am from Poland, central east europan country on the other side of Atlantic :). My hunting ground is www.segelflug.de, pracitaclly the only market for second hand gliders in Europe.
> > >> My budget is somewhere in the middle between 15kUSD and 10 kUSD, really modest but still I believe I can find something to fly.
> > >
> > > Hi Piotr,
> > >
> > > plenty of really nice gliders in your price range on segelflug.de.
> > >
> > > Think twice about an ASW-15, DG-100G, LS-1, and Standard Cirrus. Or
> > > treat yourself to an Astir and have plenty of money left for a lot of
> > > flying.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd dare to predict that one of those will be lot more fun in the long
> > > ruin, and all of these gliders have one huge advantege: They can be
> > > sold easily if you should decide to upgrade in the future.
> > >
> > Another huge advantage, is they don't have that all-flying tail, which
> > was quickly designed out of the Nimbus line, for good reason.
>
> The late models DG100G, LS1F and Grob built Std Cirruses have conventional tailplanes. Earlier variants of those 3, and the ASW 15 have all flying tailplanes.

What options would you suggest for a budget less than $10,000?

[Moshe Braner]

On 1/14/2021 1:43 PM, John Galloway wrote:
> ...
>>>
>> Another huge advantage, is they don't have that all-flying tail, which
>> was quickly designed out of the Nimbus line, for good reason.
>
> The late models DG100G, LS1F and Grob built Std Cirruses have conventional tailplanes. Earlier variants of those 3, and the ASW 15 have all flying tailplanes.
>

OK, but what is so bad about the all-flying tail? I know some models
had a reputation for no "feel" in the pitch control. Others less so.
Is it the all-flying tail, or some details of its design? Where the
hinge is placed along the chord of that tail would make a big
difference, no? And spring trim added to the system would make it
behave better when hands-off?

For example, Dick Johnson was regularly flying a Nimbus 2 IIRC, when he
did the flight test of the original Janus (both with all-flying tails).
He commented that "The well-balanced, all-movable horizontal tail (on
the Janus) provided good longitudinal stability at all speeds and was a
great improvement over the smaller poorly balanced Nimbus and Std.
Cirrus tails. It did, however, cause the longitudinal control to be
fairly sensitive to control stick position."

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Moshe Braner wrote on 1/14/2021 11:39 AM:
> On 1/14/2021 1:43 PM, John Galloway wrote:
>> ...
>>>>
>>> Another huge advantage, is they don't have that all-flying tail, which
>>> was quickly designed out of the Nimbus line, for good reason.
>>
>> The late models DG100G, LS1F and Grob built Std Cirruses have conventional tailplanes.
>> Earlier variants of those 3, and the ASW 15 have all flying tailplanes.
>>
>
> OK, but what is so bad about the all-flying tail?* I know some models had a reputation for no
> "feel" in the pitch control.* Others less so. Is it the all-flying tail, or some details of its
> design?* Where the hinge is placed along the chord of that tail would make a big difference,
> no?* And spring trim added to the system would make it behave better when hands-off?
>
> For example, Dick Johnson was regularly flying a Nimbus 2 IIRC, when he did the flight test of
> the original Janus (both with all-flying tails). *He commented that "The well-balanced,
> all-movable horizontal tail (on the Janus) provided good longitudinal stability at all speeds
> and was a great improvement over the smaller poorly balanced Nimbus and Std. Cirrus tails. It
> did, however, cause the longitudinal control to be fairly sensitive to control stick position."

My Ka6e and Std Cirrus both had all-flying tails. Based on those gliders and comments from
other pilots in different gliders, I'd say "did cause the longitudinal control to be fairly
sensitive to control stick position" is what's wrong with all-flying tails, especially at high
speeds. Over 75 knots, I held the Std Cirrus stick in both hands, ditto for the Ka6e at some
slower speed I don't remember. I very much liked both those gliders, but it was a deep pleasure
to leave those gliders for the H301 - so steady at high speeds.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[waremark]

On Monday, 11 January 2021 at 17:23:51 UTC, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 1/11/21 2:31 AM, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> > Ultimately, it's still your own decision what you buy, and depending on your skill, your club or CFI might allow it.
> > At our club, we have some pretty high demands. In order to fly solo on our Duo Discus, you need 75 hours solo, LS4 is 40 hours. If you were to buy something like Std Cirrus, Libelle or LS4, you need to have flown over 40 hours and at least 5 flights with the clubs LS4's. If you were to buy a flapped glider like Mosquito, PIK20, Mini Nimbus, you need to be solo on our Duo Discus (so 75 hours solo flight total) and flown at least 5 flights with a flapped glider in double with an instructor. Since we don't have a flapped glider owned by the club, there is a private Arcus owned by an instructor who you can pay to train.
> >
> Or you could just buy a self-launcher and tell the club, "Thanks, but no
> thanks."
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J
At my UK club you need the consent of the Chief Flying Instructor to bring a private glider onto the site and to operate it from there.

[Nicholas Kennedy]

Piotr
I've read through this thread and I think you should buy that ship, you'll do fine.
Maybe consider looking a partner too, then you can free up some cash to upgrade some instruments and make it nicer.
Fly safe in 2021
Nick
T

[kinsell]

On 1/14/21 2:11 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Moshe Braner wrote on 1/14/2021 11:39 AM:
>> On 1/14/2021 1:43 PM, John Galloway wrote:
>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>> Another huge advantage, is they don't have that all-flying tail, which
>>>> was quickly designed out of the Nimbus line, for good reason.
>>>
>>> The late models DG100G, LS1F and Grob built Std Cirruses have
>>> conventional tailplanes. Earlier variants of those 3, and the ASW 15
>>> have all flying tailplanes.
>>>
>>
>> OK, but what is so bad about the all-flying tail?Â* I know some models
>> had a reputation for no "feel" in the pitch control.Â* Others less so.
>> Is it the all-flying tail, or some details of its design?Â* Where the
>> hinge is placed along the chord of that tail would make a big
>> difference, no?Â* And spring trim added to the system would make it
>> behave better when hands-off?
>>
>> For example, Dick Johnson was regularly flying a Nimbus 2 IIRC, when
>> he did the flight test of the original Janus (both with all-flying
>> tails). Â*He commented that "The well-balanced, all-movable horizontal
>> tail (on the Janus) provided good longitudinal stability at all speeds
>> and was a great improvement over the smaller poorly balanced Nimbus
>> and Std. Cirrus tails. It did, however, cause the longitudinal control
>> to be fairly sensitive to control stick position."
>
> My Ka6e and Std Cirrus both had all-flying tails. Based on those gliders
> and comments from other pilots in different gliders, I'd say "did cause
> the longitudinal control to be fairly sensitive to control stick
> position" is what's wrong with all-flying tails, especially at high
> speeds. Over 75 knots, I held the Std Cirrus stick in both hands, ditto
> for the Ka6e at some slower speed I don't remember. I very much liked
> both those gliders, but it was a deep pleasure to leave those gliders
> for the H301 - so steady at high speeds.
>

Having logged 1200 hrs in a Ka6Cr, I must say it never occurred to me to
ever use both hands on the stick at higher speed. Such a sweet flying
glider. Maybe because it had the conventional tail, unlike the E model?

We've really beat this topic to death, but just to summarize, we have a
low-time pilot who think he's discovered some secret loophole that lets
him buy a great open-class ship for dirt cheap, and fly it on 500K tasks
in armchair comfort, with apparently no risk of landing out due to long
wings. He thinks he'll grow into it. To fly 500K you need some speed,
and developing that in an old boat like this would be really tough for a
beginning x/c pilot.

Dick Johnson said the tail is small and poorly balanced, yet some people
still claim this is a suitable glider for a low-time pilot. I know this
is R.A.S., but even so, it's time for some common sense to kick in.
Glider are expensive toys, that's unfortunate. But ignoring reality
doesn't change facts. There's a real good reason the open class ship
he's looking at is offered so cheap.

-Dave

[Frank Whiteley]

Piotr,

I always assumed there would be a large number of Std Jantar models available in Poland. Perhaps they are reaching their service life limits? As a one time owner of a share in a Jantar Std 2, I found it to be an honest performer with good cross-country potential and nice thermaling characteristics and a generous cockpit unless perhaps a pilot was wide at the hip. Would one of these be an option, or are they in demand for clubs?

Frank Whiteley

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

kinsell wrote on 1/17/2021 8:54 AM:
> On 1/14/21 2:11 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Moshe Braner wrote on 1/14/2021 11:39 AM:
>>> On 1/14/2021 1:43 PM, John Galloway wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>> Another huge advantage, is they don't have that all-flying tail, which
>>>>> was quickly designed out of the Nimbus line, for good reason.
>>>>
>>>> The late models DG100G, LS1F and Grob built Std Cirruses have conventional tailplanes.
>>>> Earlier variants of those 3, and the ASW 15 have all flying tailplanes.
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK, but what is so bad about the all-flying tail?* I know some models had a reputation for
>>> no "feel" in the pitch control.* Others less so. Is it the all-flying tail, or some details
>>> of its design?* Where the hinge is placed along the chord of that tail would make a big
>>> difference, no?* And spring trim added to the system would make it behave better when
>>> hands-off?
>>>
>>> For example, Dick Johnson was regularly flying a Nimbus 2 IIRC, when he did the flight test
>>> of the original Janus (both with all-flying tails). *He commented that "The well-balanced,
>>> all-movable horizontal tail (on the Janus) provided good longitudinal stability at all
>>> speeds and was a great improvement over the smaller poorly balanced Nimbus and Std. Cirrus
>>> tails. It did, however, cause the longitudinal control to be fairly sensitive to control
>>> stick position."
>>
>> My Ka6e and Std Cirrus both had all-flying tails. Based on those gliders and comments from
>> other pilots in different gliders, I'd say "did cause the longitudinal control to be fairly
>> sensitive to control stick position" is what's wrong with all-flying tails, especially at
>> high speeds. Over 75 knots, I held the Std Cirrus stick in both hands, ditto for the Ka6e at
>> some slower speed I don't remember. I very much liked both those gliders, but it was a deep
>> pleasure to leave those gliders for the H301 - so steady at high speeds.
>>
>
> Having logged 1200 hrs in a Ka6Cr, I must say it never occurred to me to ever use both hands on
> the stick at higher speed.* Such a sweet flying glider.* Maybe because it had the conventional
> tail, unlike the E model?

No "maybe" about it: that's the primary difference between the two Ka6 gliders. The Ka6e was
pure all-flying tail, no auto-trim tab. What made it tolerable is there was rarely a reason to
fly very fast, and it was lovely at lower speeds. Terminal velocity spoilers, too!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

The real question is: Should a Nimbus 2 be the first glider to soar on Mars?

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 1/17/2021 7:22 PM:
> The real question is: Should a Nimbus 2 be the first glider to soar on Mars?
>
Not possible for a Nimbus 2, but there is a "2" glider that's shown it could soar on Mars:
Perlan 2.

It's going to take one heck of a "trailer and tow vehicle" to get it to Mars!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

This subject has really jumped to the extremes.

A Nimbus2 is not a 15 metre ship ,you don't fly it like them , you keep to the Nimbus2 strengths.
The 15m ships have a much more defined sawtooth pattern of climb and run.The stronger the conditions the better they are.
The Nimbii? I've flown against tended to stay out of phase and come in the 15m ship thermals 3-4th thermal along halfway up ,
out climb them and leave first.
Nimbus 2 as soon as thermals got over 3 knots average 40 litres each side is required and upwards from there
Fully Tanked up they are a weapon ,not my quote, not done it.Not strong enough on average here for that.

The point to this is it is just another aircraft ,it has its quirks but if you read the all the posts
it is not just a 70 hour glider pilot but a pilot with a PPL with a similar number of power hours.
Large airfield ,flatland flying , big paddocks , hanger to ease ground handling all the advantages to make it easier.
XCSoar in the cockpit would keep you in final glide range.


The comment about the reason for cheap price is a misdirection because if glider pilot population wasn't shrinking or retiring from flying
then their prices would be comparable to how they used to be because of demand.
There a more gliders for sale in my country than I have ever seen before now coming up 50 years,because pilot numbers are dropping.
This is a worldwide effect, little demand lower prices, the market always rules.

Gary










On Monday, January 18, 2021 at 5:54:58 AM UTC+13, kinsell wrote:
> On 1/14/21 2:11 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Moshe Braner wrote on 1/14/2021 11:39 AM:
> >> On 1/14/2021 1:43 PM, John Galloway wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>>>>
> >>>> Another huge advantage, is they don't have that all-flying tail, which
> >>>> was quickly designed out of the Nimbus line, for good reason.
> >>>
> >>> The late models DG100G, LS1F and Grob built Std Cirruses have
> >>> conventional tailplanes. Earlier variants of those 3, and the ASW 15
> >>> have all flying tailplanes.
> >>>
> >>
> >> OK, but what is so bad about the all-flying tail? I know some models
> >> had a reputation for no "feel" in the pitch control. Others less so.
> >> Is it the all-flying tail, or some details of its design? Where the
> >> hinge is placed along the chord of that tail would make a big
> >> difference, no? And spring trim added to the system would make it
> >> behave better when hands-off?
> >>
> >> For example, Dick Johnson was regularly flying a Nimbus 2 IIRC, when
> >> he did the flight test of the original Janus (both with all-flying
> >> tails). He commented that "The well-balanced, all-movable horizontal
> >> tail (on the Janus) provided good longitudinal stability at all speeds
> >> and was a great improvement over the smaller poorly balanced Nimbus
> >> and Std. Cirrus tails. It did, however, cause the longitudinal control
> >> to be fairly sensitive to control stick position."
> >
> > My Ka6e and Std Cirrus both had all-flying tails. Based on those gliders
> > and comments from other pilots in different gliders, I'd say "did cause
> > the longitudinal control to be fairly sensitive to control stick
> > position" is what's wrong with all-flying tails, especially at high
> > speeds. Over 75 knots, I held the Std Cirrus stick in both hands, ditto
> > for the Ka6e at some slower speed I don't remember. I very much liked
> > both those gliders, but it was a deep pleasure to leave those gliders
> > for the H301 - so steady at high speeds.
> >
> Having logged 1200 hrs in a Ka6Cr, I must say it never occurred to me to
> ever use both hands on the stick at higher speed. Such a sweet flying
> glider. Maybe because it had the conventional tail, unlike the E model?
>
> We've really beat this topic to death, but just to summarize, we have a
> low-time pilot who think he's discovered some secret loophole that lets
> him buy a great open-class ship for dirt cheap, and fly it on 500K tasks
> in armchair comfort, with apparently no risk of landing out due to long
> wings. He thinks he'll grow into it. To fly 500K you need some speed,
> and developing that in an old boat like this would be really tough for a
> beginning x/c pilot.
>
> Dick Johnson said the tail is small and poorly balanced, yet some people
> still claim this is a suitable glider for a low-time pilot. I know this
> is R.A.S., but even so, it's time for some common sense to kick in.
> Glider are expensive toys, that's unfortunate. But ignoring reality
> doesn't change facts. There's a real good reason the open class ship
> he's looking at is offered so cheap.
>
> -Dave

[krasw]

On Monday, 18 January 2021 at 11:39:03 UTC+2, wrote:
>
>
> The comment about the reason for cheap price is a misdirection because if glider pilot population wasn't shrinking or retiring from flying
> then their prices would be comparable to how they used to be because of demand.
> There a more gliders for sale in my country than I have ever seen before now coming up 50 years,because pilot numbers are dropping.
> This is a worldwide effect, little demand lower prices, the market always rules.
>
> Gary

There is very little for sale in Europe right now, and prices are not low. Possibly due covid I guess.

[2G]

On Monday, January 18, 2021 at 5:12:26 AM UTC-8, krasw wrote:
> On Monday, 18 January 2021 at 11:39:03 UTC+2, wrote:
> >
> >
> > The comment about the reason for cheap price is a misdirection because if glider pilot population wasn't shrinking or retiring from flying
> > then their prices would be comparable to how they used to be because of demand.
> > There a more gliders for sale in my country than I have ever seen before now coming up 50 years,because pilot numbers are dropping.
> > This is a worldwide effect, little demand lower prices, the market always rules.
> >
> > Gary
> There is very little for sale in Europe right now, and prices are not low.. Possibly due covid I guess.

Things are heating up - after over 2 years on the market, my ASH26e got 2 legitimate offers within 24 hours (where were they 2 years ago?). Part of the issue is that piece of vaporware called the GP15; another factor is a steady increase in the Euro over the last year, which makes buying used in dollars more attractive. COVID also may be impacting deliveries from Germany with some companies. I have heard that deliveries from Shemp-Hirth are out to 3 years.

Tom