In Flight Emergency [Archive]

Luke Szczepaniak

March 17th 15, 03:57 PM

In some countries parachutes are mandatory in gliders (for instance
Poland where the OP is from). In North America they are not mandatory.
Most private owners, at least those I am exposed to, choose to wear
one. Most pilots flying club single seaters at my club wear one. Most
instructional flights are done done with out parachutes. Acrobatic
flights as well as standard spin training is done with parachutes.

Luke

On 03/17/2015 11:43 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> What do you need a chute for? Most tow pilots are also glider pilots
> and fully capable of landing an airplane without the engine running. It
> would be pretty weak to jump out of a perfectly good airplane just
> because the engine stopped which, in this case, it didn't until the
> pilot shut it down.
>
> On 3/17/2015 6:53 AM, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
>> On 03/16/2015 6:57 PM, wrote:
>>> No chute? Not required?
>>>
>>> S
>>>
>> Not required in USA or Canada by law. Parachutes required in
>> competitions by the rules.
>>
>>
>
> --
> Dan Marotta

Dan Marotta

March 17th 15, 04:55 PM

Yes, and I wear a chute when I fly my glider, but not when I'm giving
rides in a Grob, Blanik, 2-33, or Lark. Neither do I wear a parachute
when flying the tug and I've had four engine failures while flying tow
planes, in none of which would I have considered bailing out.

Does Poland really require parachutes in gliders? Are passengers with
no training required to wear a parachute? I wonder about the outcome if
one of them should attempt to jump.

On 3/17/2015 9:57 AM, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
> In some countries parachutes are mandatory in gliders (for instance
> Poland where the OP is from). In North America they are not
> mandatory. Most private owners, at least those I am exposed to,
> choose to wear one. Most pilots flying club single seaters at my club
> wear one. Most instructional flights are done done with out
> parachutes. Acrobatic flights as well as standard spin training is
> done with parachutes.
>
> Luke
>
> On 03/17/2015 11:43 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> What do you need a chute for? Most tow pilots are also glider pilots
>> and fully capable of landing an airplane without the engine running. It
>> would be pretty weak to jump out of a perfectly good airplane just
>> because the engine stopped which, in this case, it didn't until the
>> pilot shut it down.
>>
>> On 3/17/2015 6:53 AM, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
>>> On 03/16/2015 6:57 PM, wrote:
>>>> No chute? Not required?
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>> Not required in USA or Canada by law. Parachutes required in
>>> competitions by the rules.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Dan Marotta
>

--
Dan Marotta

John Galloway[_1_]

March 17th 15, 05:41 PM

I think a more likely scenario in which a tug pilot might wish he had
a parachute would be after a midair collision rather than an engine
failure.

At 16:55 17 March 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>Yes, and I wear a chute when I fly my glider, but not when I'm
giving
>rides in a Grob, Blanik, 2-33, or Lark. Neither do I wear a
parachute
>when flying the tug and I've had four engine failures while flying
tow
>planes, in none of which would I have considered bailing out.
>
>Does Poland really require parachutes in gliders? Are passengers
with
>no training required to wear a parachute? I wonder about the
outcome if
>one of them should attempt to jump.
>
>On 3/17/2015 9:57 AM, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
>> In some countries parachutes are mandatory in gliders (for
instance
>> Poland where the OP is from). In North America they are not
>> mandatory. Most private owners, at least those I am exposed
to,
>> choose to wear one. Most pilots flying club single seaters at my
club
>> wear one. Most instructional flights are done done with out
>> parachutes. Acrobatic flights as well as standard spin training is
>> done with parachutes.
>>
>> Luke
>>
>> On 03/17/2015 11:43 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> What do you need a chute for? Most tow pilots are also glider
pilots
>>> and fully capable of landing an airplane without the engine
running. It
>>> would be pretty weak to jump out of a perfectly good airplane
just
>>> because the engine stopped which, in this case, it didn't until
the
>>> pilot shut it down.
>>>
>>> On 3/17/2015 6:53 AM, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
>>>> On 03/16/2015 6:57 PM, wrote:
>>>>> No chute? Not required?
>>>>>
>>>>> S
>>>>>
>>>> Not required in USA or Canada by law. Parachutes required
in
>>>> competitions by the rules.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan Marotta
>>
>
>--
>Dan Marotta
>

Mike Oliver

March 17th 15, 06:05 PM

At 16:55 17 March 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>Does Poland really require parachutes in gliders? Are passengers with
>no training required to wear a parachute? I wonder about the outcome if
>one of them should attempt to jump.
>
See https://youtu.be/dDhl5dOd4_0. It might make you think again

Mike Oliver

March 17th 15, 06:07 PM

Jonathon May[_2_]

March 17th 15, 06:11 PM

In the UK I think we insist on first flight pupils wear a parachute,as to
whether they can use them.
When a first flight was hit by lightning they both had a first parachute
experiences ,and it was the instructor that broke his leg.

At 16:55 17 March 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:

>Yes, and I wear a chute when I fly my glider, but not when I'm giving
>rides in a Grob, Blanik, 2-33, or Lark. Neither do I wear a parachute
>when flying the tug and I've had four engine failures while flying tow
>planes, in none of which would I have considered bailing out.
>
>Does Poland really require parachutes in gliders? Are passengers with
>no training required to wear a parachute? I wonder about the outcome if
>one of them should attempt to jump.
>
>On 3/17/2015 9:57 AM, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
>> In some countries parachutes are mandatory in gliders (for instance
>> Poland where the OP is from). In North America they are not
>> mandatory. Most private owners, at least those I am exposed to,
>> choose to wear one. Most pilots flying club single seaters at my club
>> wear one. Most instructional flights are done done with out
>> parachutes. Acrobatic flights as well as standard spin training is
>> done with parachutes.
>>
>> Luke
>>
>> On 03/17/2015 11:43 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> What do you need a chute for? Most tow pilots are also glider pilots
>>> and fully capable of landing an airplane without the engine running.
It
>>> would be pretty weak to jump out of a perfectly good airplane just
>>> because the engine stopped which, in this case, it didn't until the
>>> pilot shut it down.
>>>
>>> On 3/17/2015 6:53 AM, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
>>>> On 03/16/2015 6:57 PM, wrote:
>>>>> No chute? Not required?
>>>>>
>>>>> S
>>>>>
>>>> Not required in USA or Canada by law. Parachutes required in
>>>> competitions by the rules.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan Marotta
>>
>
>--
>Dan Marotta
>

Steve Leonard[_2_]

March 17th 15, 06:17 PM

On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 12:45:05 PM UTC-5, John Galloway wrote:
> I think a more likely scenario in which a tug pilot might wish he had
> a parachute would be after a midair collision rather than an engine
> failure.
>

Or an inflight engine fire. Falls "loosely" into "engine failure". But, I know what you are talking about John.

As a friend once said, "The only time there is too much fuel onboard is when the plane is on fire."

Steve Leonard

Dan Marotta

March 17th 15, 07:09 PM

Not really...

Thanks for posting that, though. After filtering through the standard
broadcast TV BS, it made a really interesting story. Glad they came out
of it OK.

I would question taking passengers under a thunder storm. Isn't that
like poking a bear? Have I done that? Sure. Have I done it with a
passenger? No f**king way!

And yes, I still wear my parachute when I fly my glider. And it's a ram
air canopy just like shown in the video. Do you really use those in
gliders on the east side of the Atlantic?

On 3/17/2015 12:05 PM, Mike Oliver wrote:
> At 16:55 17 March 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Does Poland really require parachutes in gliders? Are passengers with
>> no training required to wear a parachute? I wonder about the outcome if
>> one of them should attempt to jump.
>>
> See https://youtu.be/dDhl5dOd4_0. It might make you think again
>

--
Dan Marotta

Jonathon May[_2_]

March 17th 15, 08:05 PM

Yes it really happened about 12 years back, and the pupil came back for a
second flight exactly 10 years after.
From memory they thought they were well clear of a dark cloud that then
sent a horizontal charge out that hit the wing tip.
Ask21 and the wholè front of the cockpit blew off so using the parachute
was
a bit of a no brainier really .
One of them landed on a filling station cannopy and they had to get a
ladder
to get him down.

At 19:09 17 March 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>Not really...
>
>Thanks for posting that, though. After filtering through the standard
>broadcast TV BS, it made a really interesting story. Glad they came out
>of it OK.
>
>I would question taking passengers under a thunder storm. Isn't that
>like poking a bear? Have I done that? Sure. Have I done it with a
>passenger? No f**king way!
>
>And yes, I still wear my parachute when I fly my glider. And it's a ram
>air canopy just like shown in the video. Do you really use those in
>gliders on the east side of the Atlantic?
>
>On 3/17/2015 12:05 PM, Mike Oliver wrote:
>> At 16:55 17 March 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Does Poland really require parachutes in gliders? Are passengers with
>>> no training required to wear a parachute? I wonder about the outcome
if
>>> one of them should attempt to jump.
>>>
>> See https://youtu.be/dDhl5dOd4_0. It might make you think again
>>
>
>--
>Dan Marotta
>

Jonathon May[_2_]

March 17th 15, 08:49 PM

Try this
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDhl5dOd4_0

At 19:09 17 March 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>Not really...
>
>Thanks for posting that, though. After filtering through the standard
>broadcast TV BS, it made a really interesting story. Glad they came out
>of it OK.
>
>I would question taking passengers under a thunder storm. Isn't that
>like poking a bear? Have I done that? Sure. Have I done it with a
>passenger? No f**king way!
>
>And yes, I still wear my parachute when I fly my glider. And it's a ram
>air canopy just like shown in the video. Do you really use those in
>gliders on the east side of the Atlantic?
>
>On 3/17/2015 12:05 PM, Mike Oliver wrote:
>> At 16:55 17 March 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Does Poland really require parachutes in gliders? Are passengers with
>>> no training required to wear a parachute? I wonder about the outcome
if
>>> one of them should attempt to jump.
>>>
>> See https://youtu.be/dDhl5dOd4_0. It might make you think again
>>
>
>--
>Dan Marotta
>

Martin Gregorie[_5_]

March 17th 15, 11:57 PM

On Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:09:44 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

> I would question taking passengers under a thunder storm. Isn't that
> like poking a bear? Have I done that? Sure. Have I done it with a
> passenger? No f**king way!
>
Although thunderstorm activity was forecast for the day, nobody knew the
cunim that struck the glider was there: it was hidden inside a
surrounding bank of cloud and the glider was flying away from the side of
the surrounding cloud when it was hit by the first lightning strike
emitted by that cunim. The full AIB report is here:

http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/ASK%20lightning%20strike/ASK%
20accident%20report.htm

It makes interesting reading:

By the time I joined a gliding club and started learning to fly in 2000,
almost exactly a year after that lightning strike, nobody flew or was
flown at my club without a parachute, a discipline that we still follow.
I've always heard that is a direct result of the accident.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Mike the Strike

March 18th 15, 01:00 AM

The AIB's comments regarding composite gliders are interesting: "In addition, this accident highlights the inadvisability of flying unprotected composite aircraft in close proximity to thunderstorms and the prudence of wearing parachutes in such composite gliders."

However, I know of no other lightning/glider incidents in which the use of a parachute was needed.

Mike (who routinely flies closer to thunderstorms than advised!)

Bruce Hoult

March 18th 15, 05:06 AM

On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 at 12:57:58 PM UTC+13, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> By the time I joined a gliding club and started learning to fly in 2000,
> almost exactly a year after that lightning strike, nobody flew or was
> flown at my club without a parachute, a discipline that we still follow.
> I've always heard that is a direct result of the accident.

If you assume it takes 2 minutes to put on and take off parachutes, and that each of the pilots gained 50 years of life as a result, then parachutes are worth it if needed once in every 26 million flights.

How many glider flights are there in the world in a year? I'd wild-ass-guess 15000 in NZ with about 1000 pilots. Is it 80k pilots in Europe and maybe 10k in USA? Let's say 100k world-wide. So maybe 1.5 million glider flights a year world wide.

Is there such a lightning strike every 16 years? No. It's the only one ever.

Of course that's not the only risk parachutes protect against. The main other one is mid-air collision. How often do those happen with students/rides?

The only mid-airs I've heard of either involved cross country and contest pilots, or were at low level in the airfield vicinity where a chute is not going to help.

[email protected]

March 18th 15, 06:25 AM

There are lies, there are 'wild-ass lies' and THEN.....there are statistics :P

I listened to G Dale speak of his midair and how his parachute saved his life, the G forces experienced, the threat of the canopy knocking you out, his loss of consciousness during the event and his current strategies should the devil knock twice.

I now practice my bailout technique at regular intervals, only release my harness outside the glider (seatbelt only within) and strap my Spot to the chute, no longer the shelf behind my head.

Alan Silver put out a good vid on practicing emergency egress, techniques when hanging under the silk & landing as well as poignantly noting that any "survival equipment" not tethered to you or your rig is actually "camping equipment" for an outlanding - cos it's not going to be with you when you bail out.

My humble opinion.

CJ

Per Carlin

March 18th 15, 07:08 AM

I know of at least 3 Swedes that is still alive thanks to the chute. On jumped back in the old days (70-ish) and two jumped in the 00-ich. The two first was in competition but the last was in the local of the airfield. We have also experience of some mid-air where the pilots have been able to fly home with only minor damages.

And yes, it is mandatory to use parachute when gliding in Sweden, the only exception is the flight instructor in back-seat during training. However is that based in the non-comfortable backseat in the Scheibe Bergfalke, today when almost all training is done in glassglider would I guess that 90% on the instructors also uses parachute for the comfort and for the educational argument to the requirement for the student to use it but not the instructor.

I would keep the parachute even if it was not mandatory, it is an not to expensive life saving device.

Justin Craig[_3_]

March 18th 15, 08:51 AM

At 16:55 17 March 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>Yes, and I wear a chute when I fly my glider, but not when I'm giving
>rides in a Grob, Blanik, 2-33, or Lark. Neither do I wear a parachute
>when flying the tug and I've had four engine failures while flying tow
>planes, in none of which would I have considered bailing out.
>
>Does Poland really require parachutes in gliders? Are passengers with
>no training required to wear a parachute?

*** I wonder about the outcome if
>one of them should attempt to jump****

You could ask this chap? I suspect he was rather grateful to be wearing a
chute!

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf

Justin Craig[_3_]

March 18th 15, 08:58 AM

Surely it is safer to wear a chute than not? Is it not flawed logic to fly
one glider with a chute and another without?

I recently had a lovely experience flying in the USA, however I felt very
uncomfortable without a chute.

I have 9 friends whom I still have a beer with.....only because they had a
chute on. One of those is the instructor of the K21 which had the
lightening strike.

>Not really...
>
>Thanks for posting that, though. After filtering through the standard
>broadcast TV BS, it made a really interesting story. Glad they came out
>of it OK.
>
>I would question taking passengers under a thunder storm. Isn't that
>like poking a bear? Have I done that? Sure. Have I done it with a
>passenger? No f**king way!
>
>And yes, I still wear my parachute when I fly my glider. And it's a ram
>air canopy just like shown in the video. Do you really use those in
>gliders on the east side of the Atlantic?

Bruce Hoult

March 18th 15, 11:09 AM

On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 at 10:00:05 PM UTC+13, Justin Craig wrote:
> Surely it is safer to wear a chute than not? Is it not flawed logic to fly
> one glider with a chute and another without?

It is even safer to stay on the ground.

But marginal increases in safety do not automatically trump all other factors such as convenience, cost, excitement, and the satisfaction of mastering skills. They have to be weighed up carefully, bearing in mind that no matter how careful we are we won't be here more than about 80 years on average .... and never more than about 110.

I've been a member of the same gliding club for 29 years now. It has generally had 80 - 100 members. During that time no one has died flying a glider. I'm pretty sure no one has used their parachute either. Several gliders have been written off, and one guy broke his ankle or lower leg. About 10 - 15 of our members regularly take part in competition flying, and a number of them have been national champion in various classes or undertaken record attempts (some of them with Steve Fossett, who also didn't die in a glider).

Certainly there is danger, but it's not like, say, motorcycling or bicycling. I've lost a number of friends in both those.

Justin Craig[_3_]

March 18th 15, 11:54 AM

If we have the misfortune of colliding in the air, I will be sure to
comfort your grieving widow.

At 11:09 18 March 2015, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 at 10:00:05 PM UTC+13, Justin Craig wrote:
>> Surely it is safer to wear a chute than not? Is it not flawed logic to
>fl=
>y
>> one glider with a chute and another without?=20
>
>It is even safer to stay on the ground.
>
>But marginal increases in safety do not automatically trump all other
>facto=
>rs such as convenience, cost, excitement, and the satisfaction of
>mastering=
> skills. They have to be weighed up carefully, bearing in mind that no
>matt=
>er how careful we are we won't be here more than about 80 years on
average
>=
>.... and never more than about 110.
>
>I've been a member of the same gliding club for 29 years now. It has
>genera=
>lly had 80 - 100 members. During that time no one has died flying a
>glider.=
> I'm pretty sure no one has used their parachute either. Several gliders
>ha=
>ve been written off, and one guy broke his ankle or lower leg. About 10 -
>1=
>5 of our members regularly take part in competition flying, and a number
>of=
> them have been national champion in various classes or undertaken record
>a=
>ttempts (some of them with Steve Fossett, who also didn't die in a
glider).
>
>Certainly there is danger, but it's not like, say, motorcycling or
>bicyclin=
>g. I've lost a number of friends in both those.
>

Dan Marotta

March 18th 15, 03:43 PM

Excellent report. What does 'feeling very draughty' mean? Is that a
British idiom? Or does it simply mean he felt a draft?

Would someone please explain to me how only the aileron control system,
and not the adjacent air brake system, being damaged by the lightening
strike indicates that it was a positive discharge? Why was only one
system damaged? Why not both? Why one vs. the other?

I'm only half way through the report but have to leave to fly the tug.
I'll finish this evening.

So far, I think the apparent magnetic deformation of the aileron control
rod indicates a current level not attainable by a negative strike, hence
the assumption of a positive strike. I'm still contemplating why only
the aileron system was damaged. Perhaps because it extended further
into the wing (closer to the tip) and so took the full current,
bypassing the air brake.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...

On 3/18/2015 2:51 AM, Justin Craig wrote:
> At 16:55 17 March 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Yes, and I wear a chute when I fly my glider, but not when I'm giving
>> rides in a Grob, Blanik, 2-33, or Lark. Neither do I wear a parachute
>> when flying the tug and I've had four engine failures while flying tow
>> planes, in none of which would I have considered bailing out.
>>
>> Does Poland really require parachutes in gliders? Are passengers with
>> no training required to wear a parachute?
> *** I wonder about the outcome if
>> one of them should attempt to jump****
> You could ask this chap? I suspect he was rather grateful to be wearing a
> chute!
>
> http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf
>
>
>

--
Dan Marotta

Julian Rees[_2_]

March 18th 15, 03:57 PM

I guess the problem with statistical measures is that glider pilots are a
fairly small population so that it is difficult to judge the reality of the
risk to an individual- maybe a statistician could help!

I have been flying for just under 40 years and I guess I know a few hundred
pilots by name. In that time two people I know personally have had to jump
(with 'chutes!) and survived - one mid air, one structural failure. One
person I know was struck by lightning and landed (his LS4 was a write-off)
and another good friend was killed in a mid-air where he was too injured to
jump.

When I started flying we did'nt bother with chutes for instructional
flying, now they are always used, partly I suspect as the modern 'glass
two seaters have seats which work better when you are wearing a parachute.

So I guess comes down to how you assess the risks and what the downsides
are.

(PS I also ride horses and drive motorcycles - both more dangerous IMHO
than flying !

At 11:09 18 March 2015, Bruce Hoult wrote:

>It is even safer to stay on the ground.
>
>But marginal increases in safety do not automatically trump all other
>facto=
>rs such as convenience, cost, excitement, and the satisfaction of
>mastering=
> skills. They have to be weighed up carefully, bearing in mind that no
>matt=
>er how careful we are we won't be here more than about 80 years on
average
>=
>.... and never more than about 110.
>
>I've been a member of the same gliding club for 29 years now. It has
>genera=
>lly had 80 - 100 members. During that time no one has died flying a
>glider.=
> I'm pretty sure no one has used their parachute either. Several gliders
>ha=
>ve been written off, and one guy broke his ankle or lower leg. About 10 -
>1=
>5 of our members regularly take part in competition flying, and a number
>of=
> them have been national champion in various classes or undertaken record
>a=
>ttempts (some of them with Steve Fossett, who also didn't die in a
glider).
>
>Certainly there is danger, but it's not like, say, motorcycling or
>bicyclin=
>g. I've lost a number of friends in both those.
>

Mike the Strike

March 18th 15, 05:08 PM

Dan:

We know the lightning strike in the British accident was an extremely severe positive ground stroke for several reasons:

1) The EA technology lightning location system identified the likely stroke and estimated its peak current at 80 kA (it could have been higher)

2) The compression magnetic forces that deformed the push rod were extremely large and the effect could not be reproduced in the lab (and several tried!)

3) The quantity of metal melted indicates a very high charge transfer, likely in excess of 200 coulombs.

4) The damage incurred indicated a strike that exceeded the tests used for certification of aircraft and they are pretty conservative.

This was an unusually severe event that is unlikely to be experienced again any time soon. Most aircraft lightning involves fairly low current and low energy air discharges or leaders and it's pretty rare for an aircraft to be involved as part of the circuit in a ground flash, let alone a severe positive one.

If you stay half a mile horizontally away from any active storm cell and keep out of the precipitation shaft you are unlikely to be hit.

Mike (who plays with lightning a little bit)

On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 at 8:43:44 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Excellent report.* What does 'feeling very draughty' mean?* Is that
> a British idiom?* Or does it simply mean he felt a draft?
>
>
>
> Would someone please explain to me how only the aileron control
> system, and not the adjacent air brake system, being damaged by the
> lightening strike indicates that it was a positive discharge?* Why
> was only one system damaged?* Why not both?* Why one vs. the other?
>

> I'm only half way through the report but have to leave to fly the
> tug.* I'll finish this evening.
>
>
>
> So far, I think the apparent magnetic deformation of the aileron
> control rod indicates a current level not attainable by a negative
> strike, hence the assumption of a positive strike.* I'm still
> contemplating why only the aileron system was damaged.* Perhaps
> because it extended further into the wing (closer to the tip) and so
> took the full current, bypassing the air brake.
>
>
>
> Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...
>
>
>
>
> On 3/18/2015 2:51 AM, Justin Craig
> wrote:
>
>
>
> At 16:55 17 March 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>
> Yes, and I wear a chute when I fly my glider, but not when I'm giving
> rides in a Grob, Blanik, 2-33, or Lark. Neither do I wear a parachute
> when flying the tug and I've had four engine failures while flying tow
> planes, in none of which would I have considered bailing out.
>
> Does Poland really require parachutes in gliders? Are passengers with
> no training required to wear a parachute?
>
>
> *** I wonder about the outcome if
>
>
> one of them should attempt to jump****
>
>
> You could ask this chap? I suspect he was rather grateful to be wearing a
> chute!
>
> http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

Jim White[_3_]

March 18th 15, 05:56 PM

In the 2009 15M Nationals at Aston Down we were sent one day to
Northampton, Winslow, and Kettering and were confronted by a huge dead area
near the turns that simply stopped everyone dead in their tracks. I managed
to make the NOS and WSL turns but couldn't see a way into the KES turn
until I took a cloud climb near Banbury and got enough height to fly across
the gap to a squall line I could see running N over Milton Keynes.

I arrived at cloud base just as the line started sparking and decided
(having read the reports referred to earlier) that discretion was the best
course, ran away and landed in a field.

Was there a safe way to use the squall line that was sparking? Rollings,
what is your advice?

Jim

Renny[_2_]

March 18th 15, 07:53 PM

This has been a very interesting discussion. To look at another site's history, in 1970 the Albuquerque Soaring Club moved to Moriarty, NM. Since that time there has been one reported glider lightning strike and that happened to Ken Sorenson during the US Standard Class Nationals at Moriarty on July 11, 1996. Fortunately, although the canopy blew out and the ship's electronics were fried, Ken managed to safely land at Estancia, NM.

Regarding the use of parachutes at Moriarty, over the past 45 years, there has only been one recorded use of an emergency chute and that event occurred in 2012 due to an in-flight emergency. Despite being injured, the pilot survived and was able to walk out of the remote area.

Over the past 45 years the Moriarty, New Mexico Municipal Airport has been a very active soaring site and today there are perhaps 40 gliders flown on a fairly frequent basis by both Albuquerque Soaring Club members and folks who fly with Sundance Aviation (the Moriarty based glider FBO). Lighting is very common during the monsoon season which usually begins in late-June/early July and usually ends in mid-September.

So, what can we learn here? As others have stated, lighting strikes are rare and the need for using an emergency parachute is also pretty rare, but as someone quite wise once told me.....

"It is better to have a parachute and not need it than to need a parachute and not have it...."

Thx - Renny

Dan Marotta

March 18th 15, 11:14 PM

Thanks Mike,

When I got my EE degree in 1972 they had not heard of such things, at
least where I went to school! I agree that it would take a lot of amps
to generate a magnetic field strong enough to cause the described damage
to the aileron pushrod.

All this talk of parachutes - I always wear my ram air rectangular
parachute when I fly my glider and I even went to the local jump club to
experience flying and landing one of the same size. It was so much fun
that I made seven jumps but it was too expensive for my tastes (at least
while renting the equipment and paying for the instructor's jumps). He
left the aircraft after I had a good chute.

On 3/18/2015 11:08 AM, Mike the Strike wrote:
> Dan:
>
> We know the lightning strike in the British accident was an extremely severe positive ground stroke for several reasons:
>
> 1) The EA technology lightning location system identified the likely stroke and estimated its peak current at 80 kA (it could have been higher)
>
> 2) The compression magnetic forces that deformed the push rod were extremely large and the effect could not be reproduced in the lab (and several tried!)
>
> 3) The quantity of metal melted indicates a very high charge transfer, likely in excess of 200 coulombs.
>
> 4) The damage incurred indicated a strike that exceeded the tests used for certification of aircraft and they are pretty conservative.
>
> This was an unusually severe event that is unlikely to be experienced again any time soon. Most aircraft lightning involves fairly low current and low energy air discharges or leaders and it's pretty rare for an aircraft to be involved as part of the circuit in a ground flash, let alone a severe positive one.
>
> If you stay half a mile horizontally away from any active storm cell and keep out of the precipitation shaft you are unlikely to be hit.
>
> Mike (who plays with lightning a little bit)
>
> On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 at 8:43:44 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Excellent report. What does 'feeling very draughty' mean? Is that
>> a British idiom? Or does it simply mean he felt a draft?
>>
>>
>>
>> Would someone please explain to me how only the aileron control
>> system, and not the adjacent air brake system, being damaged by the
>> lightening strike indicates that it was a positive discharge? Why
>> was only one system damaged? Why not both? Why one vs. the other?
>>
>
>> I'm only half way through the report but have to leave to fly the
>> tug. I'll finish this evening.
>>
>>
>>
>> So far, I think the apparent magnetic deformation of the aileron
>> control rod indicates a current level not attainable by a negative
>> strike, hence the assumption of a positive strike. I'm still
>> contemplating why only the aileron system was damaged. Perhaps
>> because it extended further into the wing (closer to the tip) and so
>> took the full current, bypassing the air brake.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/18/2015 2:51 AM, Justin Craig
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> At 16:55 17 March 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yes, and I wear a chute when I fly my glider, but not when I'm giving
>> rides in a Grob, Blanik, 2-33, or Lark. Neither do I wear a parachute
>> when flying the tug and I've had four engine failures while flying tow
>> planes, in none of which would I have considered bailing out.
>>
>> Does Poland really require parachutes in gliders? Are passengers with
>> no training required to wear a parachute?
>>
>>
>> *** I wonder about the outcome if
>>
>>
>> one of them should attempt to jump****
>>
>>
>> You could ask this chap? I suspect he was rather grateful to be wearing a
>> chute!
>>
>> http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dan Marotta

--
Dan Marotta

[email protected]

March 18th 15, 11:28 PM

This has been a very interesting discussion. To look at another site's history, in 1970 the Albuquerque Soaring Club moved to Moriarty, NM. Since that time there has been one reported glider lightning strike and that happened to Ken Sorenson during the US Standard Class Nationals at Moriarty on July 11, 1996. Fortunately, although the canopy blew out and the ship's electronics were fried, Ken managed to safely land at Estancia, NM.

Regarding the use of parachutes at Moriarty, over the past 45 years, there has only been one recorded use of an emergency chute and that event occurred in 2012 due to an in-flight emergency. Despite being injured, the pilot survived and was able to walk out of the remote area.

Over the past 45 years the Moriarty, New Mexico Municipal Airport has been a very active soaring site and today there are perhaps 40 gliders flown on a fairly frequent basis by both Albuquerque Soaring Club members and folks who fly with Sundance Aviation (the Moriarty based glider FBO). During those 45 years there have been literally thousands of glider fights out of Moriarty.

New Mexico is also well known for its many thunderstorms and the associated lightning which is very common during the summer monsoon season. This active period usually begins in late-June/early July and normally ends in mid-September.

So, what can we learn here? As others have stated, lightning strikes are rare and the need for using an emergency parachute is also pretty rare, but as someone quite wise once told me.....

"It is better to have a parachute and not need it than to need a parachute and not have it...."

Thx - Renny

Ventus_a

March 19th 15, 03:11 AM

On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 at 12:57:58 PM UTC+13, Martin Gregorie wrote:
By the time I joined a gliding club and started learning to fly in 2000,
almost exactly a year after that lightning strike, nobody flew or was
flown at my club without a parachute, a discipline that we still follow.
I've always heard that is a direct result of the accident.

If you assume it takes 2 minutes to put on and take off parachutes, and that each of the pilots gained 50 years of life as a result, then parachutes are worth it if needed once in every 26 million flights.

How many glider flights are there in the world in a year? I'd wild-ass-guess 15000 in NZ with about 1000 pilots. Is it 80k pilots in Europe and maybe 10k in USA? Let's say 100k world-wide. So maybe 1.5 million glider flights a year world wide.

Is there such a lightning strike every 16 years? No. It's the only one ever.

Of course that's not the only risk parachutes protect against. The main other one is mid-air collision. How often do those happen with students/rides?

The only mid-airs I've heard of either involved cross country and contest pilots, or were at low level in the airfield vicinity where a chute is not going to help.

Hi Bruce

We had a bailout from a Discus CS in February at the Auckland Gliding Club as a result of aileron controls becoming jammed. The pilot is pretty happy he was wearing the expensive seat cushion. He departed the CS at about 1600' AGL

:-) Colin

Ventus_a

March 19th 15, 03:27 AM

On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 at 12:57:58 PM UTC+13, Martin Gregorie wrote:
By the time I joined a gliding club and started learning to fly in 2000,
almost exactly a year after that lightning strike, nobody flew or was
flown at my club without a parachute, a discipline that we still follow.
I've always heard that is a direct result of the accident.

If you assume it takes 2 minutes to put on and take off parachutes, and that each of the pilots gained 50 years of life as a result, then parachutes are worth it if needed once in every 26 million flights.

How many glider flights are there in the world in a year? I'd wild-ass-guess 15000 in NZ with about 1000 pilots. Is it 80k pilots in Europe and maybe 10k in USA? Let's say 100k world-wide. So maybe 1.5 million glider flights a year world wide.

Is there such a lightning strike every 16 years? No. It's the only one ever.

Of course that's not the only risk parachutes protect against. The main other one is mid-air collision. How often do those happen with students/rides?

The only mid-airs I've heard of either involved cross country and contest pilots, or were at low level in the airfield vicinity where a chute is not going to help.

Hi Bruce

I'm aware of 2 midairs at circuit height, one in the UK and one in Australia, where the pilots of the disabled gliders (2) were saved by using the chute

Colin

Bruce Hoult

March 19th 15, 08:18 AM

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 8:43:03 PM UTC+13, Ventus_a wrote:
> We had a bailout from a Discus CS in February at the Auckland Gliding
> Club as a result of aileron controls becoming jammed. The pilot is
> pretty happy he was wearing the expensive seat cushion. He departed the
> CS at about 1600' AGL

Wow that's pretty low. Prior experience?

Ventus_a

March 20th 15, 08:12 AM

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 8:43:03 PM UTC+13, Ventus_a wrote:
We had a bailout from a Discus CS in February at the Auckland Gliding
Club as a result of aileron controls becoming jammed. The pilot is
pretty happy he was wearing the expensive seat cushion. He departed the
CS at about 1600' AGL

Wow that's pretty low. Prior experience?

It is Bruce.

The UK one was a gentleman who if I recall correctly was 80 or so and he was in a K8. Was quite a few years ago now and he had experience back in WW2.

The Australian one was quite some time ago as well and once again relying on an aging memory the pilot was in his mid to late 60s. It was a Discus of some description. Saw the fuse years ago back when Sandy Shields was still the owner of Sailplane Services

As an aside Theo Newfield had a midair many years ago in a comp in Australia. He was hit from behind and the other pilot didn't survive

Colin

Bob T

March 20th 15, 11:39 AM

On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 7:29:19 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> At about 800ft I lost a cylinder bolt and the case cracked at about 1:30 on this video.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=972894796062971
>
> Boggs

I think of a parachute as a form of life insurance where the buyer, as well as the family, is the beneficiary. And, it comes with a very small annual expense (repacking).

I wonder how many married pilots out there don't have regular life insurance to help their potential widow and kids if they were to die? The number of people who do die is quite low compared to those who don't die, which is why life insurance companies are quite profitable. BUT, when someone in that small percentage of policy holders does die, the family benefits. Think about it.

[email protected]

March 20th 15, 11:46 AM

What caused the aileron jam, if known?

> Hi Bruce
>
> We had a bailout from a Discus CS in February at the Auckland Gliding
> Club as a result of aileron controls becoming jammed. The pilot is
> pretty happy he was wearing the expensive seat cushion. He departed the
> CS at about 1600' AGL
>
> :-) Colin

Ventus_a

March 20th 15, 09:44 PM

What caused the aileron jam, if known?

Hi Bruce

We had a bailout from a Discus CS in February at the Auckland Gliding
Club as a result of aileron controls becoming jammed. The pilot is
pretty happy he was wearing the expensive seat cushion. He departed the
CS at about 1600' AGL

:-) Colin

Hi

The parcel shelf was incorrectly installed and it allowed some pickets to fall into the controls. It's alleged that the pilot had some concerns before launching over full and free movement of the controls but launched anyway.

What is not alleged but proven in this case is that the expensive seat cushion can at times save a persons life when all other things have failed

The link is to a New Zealand CAA airworthiness notice. (It initiates a download)

https://www.caa.govt.nz/Airworthiness_Directives/Continuing_Airworthiness_Notices/CAN_%2027-008_Rev1.pdf

Colin

WaltWX[_2_]

March 23rd 15, 11:45 PM

>
> Hi Bruce
>
> We had a bailout from a Discus CS in February at the Auckland Gliding
> Club as a result of aileron controls becoming jammed. The pilot is
> pretty happy he was wearing the expensive seat cushion. He departed the
> CS at about 1600' AGL
>
> :-) Colin
>
>

I nearly had a similar incident in my Discus 2A a couple of years ago. The baggage compartment fiberglass shelf that slides in above and behind the spar was not installed properly. It slides into two slots and it's quite easy to miss one of them. After loading all my "stuff" into the baggage compartment, the shelf sagged down and interfered with the controls. Just before takeoff, I did a control check... moving stick in all directions while operating the dive break. Moving the dive brake caused the ailerons to move. I quickly released and moved off the take off line to resolve the problem. Now... I extremely careful above installing that baggage shelf. I hate to think what would have happened without the pre-take off full control check.

Walt Rogers WX