Encrypted Flarmnet files and 3rd party software

[jfitch]

I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has encrypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the Butterfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate from the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.

I liked the ability to see who was flying the glider I was about to run into, or at least was opposite me in the circle. Also whether they were worth leeching off of. Of course you can still do that, but will need to associate the Flarm ID with the pilot in your head, since that will be all that is displayed.

This seems like a step backwards for those who's paranoia has not gotten the better of them. I'm not sure what he solution is, but at least one near term one would be to encourage everyone to re-register on a 3rd part sight, and recreate the old style Flarmnet database which would continue to be usable in existing PDA and (perhaps) display head firmware. Anyone concerned about being tracked would not need to register.

Does anyone else see this as a step forward? Is my understanding of this incorrect?

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 11:31:25 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has encrypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the Butterfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate from the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.

I haven't played around much with this stuff, yet, but I assume that since Butterfly runs FlarmNet, their displays will certainly have access to a suitably encrypted database. They may also choose (or not) to pass the encrypted database and keys to LXNAV, LX Avionics, and other manufacturers of hardware devices. Where this is going to be a problem is with software like XCSoar, LK8000, etc., as I don't believe there is any way to distribute an encrypted database for use with open source software, without revealing a decryption key that can be used by the "bad guys" (OGN).

Personally, my preferred way to handle this would be to refuse to register my Flarm device with a private company that does not make their (opt-in only, of course) database openly available, and instead register with a company or organization that promises to make the data open to all. About all that database need contain is a tail number, glider type, and perhaps pilot first name and last initial. I note that one can now register their Flarm device with OGN, but they do not appear to have a link available to download their database. Perhaps they should...

Marc

[jfitch]

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 12:31:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 11:31:25 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has encrypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the Butterfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate from the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.
>
> I haven't played around much with this stuff, yet, but I assume that since Butterfly runs FlarmNet, their displays will certainly have access to a suitably encrypted database. They may also choose (or not) to pass the encrypted database and keys to LXNAV, LX Avionics, and other manufacturers of hardware devices. Where this is going to be a problem is with software like XCSoar, LK8000, etc., as I don't believe there is any way to distribute an encrypted database for use with open source software, without revealing a decryption key that can be used by the "bad guys" (OGN).
>
> Personally, my preferred way to handle this would be to refuse to register my Flarm device with a private company that does not make their (opt-in only, of course) database openly available, and instead register with a company or organization that promises to make the data open to all. About all that database need contain is a tail number, glider type, and perhaps pilot first name and last initial. I note that one can now register their Flarm device with OGN, but they do not appear to have a link available to download their database. Perhaps they should...
>
> Marc

I am told by Butterfly that even there own display will not display this information, at least at present.

Since the PLAU and PLAA sentences pass the ID through the serial port, what is needed is an independent database located somewhere other than Germany where the legal considerations originate. From it an unencrypted file can be produced that will work with all existing software. It could be populated initially with the last unencrypted file which is de facto public record.

[Tim Newport-Peace[_2_]]

At 19:31 19 March 2015, wrote:
>On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 11:31:25 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
>> I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has
>e=
>ncrypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the
>Bu=
>tterfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate
>f=
>rom the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.
>
>I haven't played around much with this stuff, yet, but I assume that
since
>=
>Butterfly runs FlarmNet, their displays will certainly have access to a
>sui=
>tably encrypted database. They may also choose (or not) to pass the
>encryp=
>ted database and keys to LXNAV, LX Avionics, and other manufacturers of
>har=
>dware devices. Where this is going to be a problem is with software like
>X=
>CSoar, LK8000, etc., as I don't believe there is any way to distribute an
>e=
>ncrypted database for use with open source software, without revealing a
>de=
>cryption key that can be used by the "bad guys" (OGN).
>
>Personally, my preferred way to handle this would be to refuse to
register
>=
>my Flarm device with a private company that does not make their (opt-in
>onl=
>y, of course) database openly available, and instead register with a
>compan=
>y or organization that promises to make the data open to all. About all
>tha=
>t database need contain is a tail number, glider type, and perhaps pilot
>fi=
>rst name and last initial. I note that one can now register their Flarm
>de=
>vice with OGN, but they do not appear to have a link available to
download
>=
>their database. Perhaps they should...
>
>Marc
>
It is early days for the OGN file. I guess the first priority is to get OGN
up and running with the Flarm Tracking Server.

Have you subscribed to the Open Glider Network discussion group
(http://wiki.glidernet.org/contact)? Perhaps you could influence the
design.

Tim.

[Ramy[_2_]]

John, my understanding is that Butterfly display need the 3.4 version to support the new encrypted database. Where did you hear that the call sign is no longer supported, even with the new 3.4 firmware? This doesn't make much sense. If call sign is no longer showing I expect this is a temporary bug.

Ramy

[jfitch]

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> John, my understanding is that Butterfly display need the 3.4 version to support the new encrypted database. Where did you hear that the call sign is no longer supported, even with the new 3.4 firmware? This doesn't make much sense. If call sign is no longer showing I expect this is a temporary bug.
>
> Ramy

This was in response to an enquiry to Air Avionics. It is possible I misinterpreted the answer, and that the Butterfly display would be able to decode the file. But PDA software, including their own iGlide, will not at this time. Maybe the Air people can step in and clarify the answer. I do not have a Butterfly Flarm display in my cockpit, so for me anyway, this means no pilot ID.

Has anyone seen pilot IDs on the new firmware? In the other thread, someone had upgraded everything and said they saw only codes, no pilot info.

[Wolf Aviator[_2_]]

At 18:31 19 March 2015, jfitch wrote:
>I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has
>enc=
>rypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the
>Butt=
>erfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate
>fro=
>m the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.
>
>I liked the ability to see who was flying the glider I was about to run
>int=
>o, or at least was opposite me in the circle. Also whether they were
worth
>=
>leeching off of. Of course you can still do that, but will need to
>associat=
>e the Flarm ID with the pilot in your head, since that will be all that
is
>=
>displayed.
>
>This seems like a step backwards for those who's paranoia has not
gotten
>th=
>e better of them. I'm not sure what he solution is, but at least one near
>t=
>erm one would be to encourage everyone to re-register on a 3rd part
sight,
>=
>and recreate the old style Flarmnet database which would continue to be
>usa=
>ble in existing PDA and (perhaps) display head firmware. Anyone
concerned
>a=
>bout being tracked would not need to register.=20
>
>Does anyone else see this as a step forward? Is my understanding of
this
>in=
>correct?
>

Open Glider DB:
http://live.glidernet.org/db/

It is up to you, consumers to decide what system wins!


Regards
Wolf
http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw

[Wolf Aviator[_2_]]

At 19:31 19 March 2015, wrote:
>On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 11:31:25 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

>cryption key that can be used by the "bad guys" (OGN).
>

Why in your opinion OGN are bad guys? This was open database, people
gave their data (true or not) voluntarily. Now in flarm said in the name of

all including those who don't mind, to explicitly say it is no longer
opened to
OGN and others.

But hey! There is alternative! :)

Regards
Wolf
http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw

[Wolf Aviator[_2_]]

At 19:31 19 March 2015, wrote:
>On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 11:31:25 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
I note that one can now register their Flarm
>de=
>vice with OGN, but they do not appear to have a link available to
download
>=
>their database. Perhaps they should...
>
>Marc
>

I believe this will be sorted out soon. They are not paid for their effort,
so
they don't work on this full time. And hey, how you did contributed today?
Regards
Wolf
http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw

[jfitch]

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 6:15:06 PM UTC-7, Wolf Aviator wrote:
> At 18:31 19 March 2015, jfitch wrote:
> >I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has
> >enc=
> >rypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the
> >Butt=
> >erfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate
> >fro=
> >m the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.
> >
> >I liked the ability to see who was flying the glider I was about to run
> >int=
> >o, or at least was opposite me in the circle. Also whether they were
> worth
> >=
> >leeching off of. Of course you can still do that, but will need to
> >associat=
> >e the Flarm ID with the pilot in your head, since that will be all that
> is
> >=
> >displayed.
> >
> >This seems like a step backwards for those who's paranoia has not
> gotten
> >th=
> >e better of them. I'm not sure what he solution is, but at least one near
> >t=
> >erm one would be to encourage everyone to re-register on a 3rd part
> sight,
> >=
> >and recreate the old style Flarmnet database which would continue to be
> >usa=
> >ble in existing PDA and (perhaps) display head firmware. Anyone
> concerned
> >a=
> >bout being tracked would not need to register.=20
> >
> >Does anyone else see this as a step forward? Is my understanding of
> this
> >in=
> >correct?
> >
>
> Open Glider DB:
> http://live.glidernet.org/db/
>
> It is up to you, consumers to decide what system wins!
>
>
> Regards
> Wolf
> http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw

So the OGN database is a replacement for the Flarmnet database? I can load it into my SYM or Winpilot and leech freely?

[Karl Kunz[_2_]]

So how do those of us that can no longer use it remove or info from they database?



> > >=
> > >leeching off of. Of course you can still do that, but will need to
> > >associat=
> > >e the Flarm ID with the pilot in your head, since that will be all that
> > is
> > >=
> > >displayed.
> > >
> > >This seems like a step backwards for those who's paranoia has not
> > gotten
> > >th=
> > >e better of them. I'm not sure what he solution is, but at least one near
> > >t=
> > >erm one would be to encourage everyone to re-register on a 3rd part
> > sight,
> > >=
> > >and recreate the old style Flarmnet database which would continue to be
> > >usa=
> > >ble in existing PDA and (perhaps) display head firmware. Anyone
> > concerned
> > >a=
> > >bout being tracked would not need to register.=20
> > >
> > >Does anyone else see this as a step forward? Is my understanding of
> > this
> > >in=
> > >correct?
> > >
> >
> > Open Glider DB:
> > http://live.glidernet.org/db/
> >
> > It is up to you, consumers to decide what system wins!
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Wolf
> > http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw
>
> So the OGN database is a replacement for the Flarmnet database? I can load it into my SYM or Winpilot and leech freely?

[Ramy[_2_]]

Confirming that after upgrading the butterfly display to 3.4 and downloading the new encrypted flarmnet file, the contest number are no longer visible. Must be a bug.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Friday, March 20, 2015 at 2:28:18 AM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
> On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 6:15:06 PM UTC-7, Wolf Aviator wrote:
> > At 18:31 19 March 2015, jfitch wrote:
> > >I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has
> > >enc=
> > >rypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the
> > >Butt=
> > >erfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate
> > >fro=
> > >m the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.
> > >
> > >I liked the ability to see who was flying the glider I was about to run
> > >int=
> > >o, or at least was opposite me in the circle. Also whether they were
> > worth
> > >=
> > >leeching off of. Of course you can still do that, but will need to
> > >associat=
> > >e the Flarm ID with the pilot in your head, since that will be all that
> > is
> > >=
> > >displayed.
> > >
> > >This seems like a step backwards for those who's paranoia has not
> > gotten
> > >th=
> > >e better of them. I'm not sure what he solution is, but at least one near
> > >t=
> > >erm one would be to encourage everyone to re-register on a 3rd part
> > sight,
> > >=
> > >and recreate the old style Flarmnet database which would continue to be
> > >usa=
> > >ble in existing PDA and (perhaps) display head firmware. Anyone
> > concerned
> > >a=
> > >bout being tracked would not need to register.=20
> > >
> > >Does anyone else see this as a step forward? Is my understanding of
> > this
> > >in=
> > >correct?
> > >
> >
> > Open Glider DB:
> > http://live.glidernet.org/db/
> >
> > It is up to you, consumers to decide what system wins!
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Wolf
> > http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw
>
> So the OGN database is a replacement for the Flarmnet database? I can load it into my SYM or Winpilot and leech freely?

Well, not yet, but we can easily generate the file in the format of the "old" flarmnet (if needed). However, unlike FlarmNet OGN db does not intent to store any "personal" data such as "owner name" in order to avoid privacy complains in the future. OGN db is just making association between deviceid(flarm id, ogn tracker id, icao address) and aicraft type,cn & reg number

Cheers
Wojtek

[jfitch]

On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 12:07:37 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Confirming that after upgrading the butterfly display to 3.4 and downloading the new encrypted flarmnet file, the contest number are no longer visible. Must be a bug.
>
> Ramy

Ramy, I don't think a bug. This is the consequence of the encryption and tracking concerns. Butterfly tech support told me that's the way it is for now. Which sucks, frankly.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

> Ramy, I don't think a bug. This is the consequence of the encryption and tracking concerns. Butterfly tech support told me that's the way it is for now. Which sucks, frankly.

Kind of takes away any reason for signing up to FLARMnet I guess... Did you ask if the other info (eg., air-to-air frequency, aerodrome of origination, etc) is still available?

Dan
2D

[Ramy[_2_]]

This doesn't make any sense. The whole point of flarmnet, as well as the recent upgrade to the butterfly display was to support the new encrypted flarmnet so it doesn't make sense that this is by design.
For now best thing to do is downgrade the butterfly display to previous version and use an older unencrypted copy of flarmnet.
These silly privacy concerns are only causing a mess.

Ramy

[Bryan Searle]

At 17:22 23 March 2015, Ramy wrote:
>This doesn't make any sense. The whole point of flarmnet, as well as the
>recent upgrade to the butterfly display was to support the new encrypted
>flarmnet so it doesn't make sense that this is by design.
>For now best thing to do is downgrade the butterfly display to previous
>version and use an older unencrypted copy of flarmnet.
>These silly privacy concerns are only causing a mess.
>
>Ramy
>

I have just downloaded the flarmnet.fln file, I used Flarmnet-lookup
(python script) to see the records and all the information is there apart
from the pilot's name. This seems fairly reasonable, one can find this
information if you want. Enjoy!

[Ramy[_2_]]

This would be fine, but the problem is that the call sign is not showing as well, unless they fixed it recently.
I still dont get the privacy thing, why removing the pilot name? If the pilot does not want to provide their name they wouldn't, if they do than why removing it?

Ramy

[jfitch]

I don't get it either, since once you have the tail number or contest number (or IACO number) the owner at least is a very simple public database lookup. That isn't necessarily the pilot, but in gliders it is a very high correlation.

[Peter von Tresckow]

jfitch > wrote:
> I don't get it either, since once you have the tail number or contest
> number (or IACO number) the owner at least is a very simple public
> database lookup. That isn't necessarily the pilot, but in gliders it is a
> very high correlation.

This is mostly a German privacy thing. Over there they don't have a
publicly available registration DB. German privacy law is way more strict
than anything here in the US

Pete

[Ramy[_2_]]

I got a confirmation from flarmnet folks that this was a bug they fixed as of last Tuesday. The only thing that they removed for now is the pilot name.. The Tail Number should be displayd as before once you download the latest file from flarmnet. I hope to be able to confirm it this weekend.

Ramy

[George Haeh]

I loaded the latest Butterfly provided
flarmnet file along with the 3.4 firmware
update into our club gliders and my own.

All I can see are the ICAO id's.

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 1:45:07 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
> I loaded the latest Butterfly provided
> flarmnet file along with the 3.4 firmware
> update into our club gliders and my own.
>
> All I can see are the ICAO id's.

Indeed it is still not working right. Sigh!!

Ramy

[George Haeh]

Then I hooked in my Oudie with SYM.

SYM shows the contest letters.

PF - Butterfly Vario rebaptised AirGlide - NMEA Converter - Oudie


At 04:11 28 March 2015, Ramy wrote:
>On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 1:45:07 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
>> I loaded the latest Butterfly provided
>> flarmnet file along with the 3.4 firmware
>> update into our club gliders and my own.
>>
>> All I can see are the ICAO id's.
>
>Indeed it is still not working right. Sigh!!
>
>Ramy
>

[[email protected]]

George, can you confirm the version number of the FLarmNet file on your Oudie ?
Indeed, very recently I set up a friend's new PF Core + Oudie/SYM.
My own system (upgraded to PF FW V6) showed up perfectly fine with my 3U call sign on his Oudie. My guess is the Oudie had a pre-encryption FlarmNet file.
3U.

[George Haeh]

3U, the Radar folder shows a
20150322.fln file; so I'm guessing either:

Naviter and Flarm have an understanding

or that Naviter matches the ICAO ID to the
public FlarmNet data.

George


At 07:27 28 March 2015,
wrote:
>George, can you confirm the version
number of the FLarmNet file on your
>Oudie ?
>Indeed, very recently I set up a friend's
new PF Core + Oudie/SYM.
>My own system (upgraded to PF FW V6)
showed up perfectly fine with my 3U
>call sign on his Oudie. My guess is the
Oudie had a pre-encryption FlarmNet
>file.
>3U.
>

[George Haeh]

3U, the Radar folder shows a
20150322.fln file; so I'm guessing either:

Naviter and Flarm have an understanding

or that Naviter matches the ICAO ID to the
public FlarmNet data.

George


At 07:27 28 March 2015,
wrote:
>George, can you confirm the version
number of the FLarmNet file on your
>Oudie ?
>Indeed, very recently I set up a friend's
new PF Core + Oudie/SYM.
>My own system (upgraded to PF FW V6)
showed up perfectly fine with my 3U
>call sign on his Oudie. My guess is the
Oudie had a pre-encryption FlarmNet
>file.
>3U.
>

[Craig Reinholt]

> Indeed it is still not working right. Sigh!!
> Ramy

I uploaded the current .bfn file this morning and it worked nicely. The pilot name is gone as discussed, but the rest of the information is displayed as it used to be. My Butterfly display saw gliders running both the 3.3 and 3.4 version firmware.

Flarmnet is now back to regional files instead of the prior world file.

FlarmNet files for Butterfly Displays (Version: 00303b):
Files for Butterfly Display firmware version >= 3.4. Please make sure to install the latest firmware for your Butterfly Display:
Data for North America and South America
Data for Asia, Australia and Oceania
Data for Europe and Africa

Right click on the desired file and 'save target as..' to download a file.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Indeed I got confirmation from flarmnet that they found the issue was happening only when updating via powerflatm and it should be fixed now and divided to regions again. I didn't get a chance to confirm this myself yet.

Ramy