Hanger Flying/ I learned from this experience

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

In the war bird community we had hangar flying sessions where we talked about the emergencies we experienced and how we handled them. These were priceless sessions! I learned what other pilots did in situations I had never thought of. So here is my first post about something that taught me a lesson. Hopefully others will share their experiences too. This should be a judgment free thread for learning and sharing.

Here is something that taught me about flying. I had purchased a brand new Ventus 2C (I think it was 2000 or 2001). As part of the options I had the CG adjusted for pilot weight at the factory. When my shinny new glider arrived I was keen to get it in the air. My first big mistake was to trust the factory W&B! I had never flown an aircraft out of the CG range except once when a passenger lied to me about their weight (by 60 Lbs) while flying a helicopter. I ran out of aft stick on landing, not a big event on a paved runway. Anyway back to my story. My plan as always with a new (to me) glider was to take a high tow, do a few turns and stall or two, I was even planning on a spin. Well on tow I noticed my new glider (first and only time I purchased a new glider) was rather pitch sensitive, off tow, it was all I could do to keep it between 45 knots and 75 knots. Fortunately, the day was booming so staying up was not too difficult. I immediately abandoned my plan of some turns, stalls and maybe a spin. I thought the problem was with me as I had not been flying fixed wing aircraft much in the prior two years. I flew for four hours, got a bit better controlling the speed. I entered the pattern about 4,000 AGL and practised flying the pattern keeping my speed to within as small a speed deviation as I could. After landing I thought the problem was with me and possibly the brand as I had heard the first Ventus' were not known to be easy to fly. I thought nothing more than I need a bunch more time in this glider and never even mentioned my speed control problems to my fellow pilots as I was too embarassed. I put about 20 hours on that glider in two months and even had a few notable interesting XC flights. With time I got much better at the speed control (used to fly an all flying tail glider), but I never felt comfortable. Finally I confessed my experiences to another pilot and that I thought somehow I could not fly fixed wing aircraft anymore. Well, this pilot mentioned that it sounded like a CG problem. That had never occurred to me, nor did I have any experience in this area. Looked at the aircraft logbook again and had a W&B done. The logs and W&B calculations done by the factory showed I need 11 lbs of tail weight, the weight from the factory in the tail was 11 kilograms!!! I seem to remember NASA losing a Mars lander with JPL using metric calculations and NASA using English system :(

What did I learn: 1) Always perform a W&B on a glider that is new to you; 2) Never be shy about admitting your flying problems to fellow pilots; 3) do not plan to perform stalls and spins on the very first flight; 4) do not make excuses for the glider or how it is flying or how you are flying it, tell someone about it!

Maybe someone else could add a few comments about what they would have done and anything else I could learn from this. Also, share your own story so we might all learn.

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 06:36 09 April 2015, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>In the war bird community we had hangar flying sessions where we
talked
>abo=
>ut the emergencies we experienced and how we handled them.
These were
>pric=
>eless sessions! I learned what other pilots did in situations I had
never
>=
>thought of. So here is my first post about something that taught me
a
>less=
>on. Hopefully others will share their experiences too. This should
be a
>ju=
>dgment free thread for learning and sharing.
>
>Here is something that taught me about flying. I had purchased a
brand
>new=
> Ventus 2C (I think it was 2000 or 2001). As part of the options I had
>the=
> CG adjusted for pilot weight at the factory. When my shinny new
glider
>ar=
>rived I was keen to get it in the air. My first big mistake was to trust
>t=
>he factory W&B! I had never flown an aircraft out of the CG range
except
>o=
>nce when a passenger lied to me about their weight (by 60 Lbs)
while
>flying=
> a helicopter. I ran out of aft stick on landing, not a big event on a
>pav=
>ed runway. Anyway back to my story. My plan as always with a
new (to nme)
>=
>glider was to take a high tow, do a few turns and stall or two, I was
even
>=
>planning on a spin. Well on tow I noticed my new glider (first and
only
>ti=
>me I purchased a new glider) was rather pitch sensitive, off tow, it
was
>al=
>l I could do to keep it between 45 knots and 75 knots. Fortunately,
the
>da=
>y was booming so staying up was not too difficult. I immediately
>abandoned=
> my plan of some turns, stalls and maybe a spin. I thought the
problem
>was=
> with me as I had not been flying fixed wing aircraft much in the
prior
>two=
> years. I flew for four hours, got a bit better controlling the speed.
I
>=
>entered the pattern about 4,000 AGL and practised flying the pattern
>keepin=
>g my speed to within as small a speed deviation as I could. After
landing
>=
>I thought the problem was with me and possibly the brand as I had
heard
>the=
> first Ventus' were not known to be easy to fly. I thought nothing
more
>th=
>an I need a bunch more time in this glider and never even
mentioned my
>spee=
>d control problems to my fellow pilots as I was too embarassed. I
put
>abou=
>t 20 hours on that glider in two months and even had a few notable
>interest=
>ing XC flights. With time I got much better at the speed control
(used to
>=
>fly an all flying tail glider), but I never felt comfortable. Finally I
>co=
>nfessed my experiences to another pilot and that I thought
somehow I could
>=
>not fly fixed wing aircraft anymore. Well, this pilot mentioned that it
>so=
>unded like a CG problem. That had never occurred to me, nor did I
have
>any=
> experience in this area. Looked at the aircraft logbook again and
had a
>W=
>&B done. The logs and W&B calculations done by the factory
showed I need
>1=
>1 lbs of tail weight, the weight from the factory in the tail was 11
>kilogr=
>ams!!! I seem to remember NASA losing a Mars lander with JPL
using metric
>=
>calculations and NASA using English system :(
>
>What did I learn: 1) Always perform a W&B on a glider that is new to
you;
>=
> 2) Never be shy about admitting your flying problems to fellow
pilots;
>3)=
> do not plan to perform stalls and spins on the very first flight; 4) do
>no=
>t make excuses for the glider or how it is flying or how you are flying
>it,=
> tell someone about it! =20
>
>Maybe someone else could add a few comments about what they
would have
>done=
> and anything else I could learn from this. Also, share your own
story
>so=
> we might all learn.

I completely agree about thoroughly checking out brand new gliders.
My experiences are:

One delivered with a blocked tail tank dump valve and 2 litres of
water in the tail tank.

One with a tailplane rigging knob that was inside the fin at the base
of the rudder by the starboard rudder control horn and interfering
with full right rudder deflection.

One with the TE tube disconnected from the fitting in the fin which
required a hole to be cut in the fin to fix.

>

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:36:11 -0700, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> Maybe someone else could add a few comments about what they would have
> done and anything else I could learn from this. Also, share your own
> story so we might all learn.
>
Me again.

When I bought my Libelle the club insisted that we weigh it before I flew
it: probably just as well, as the CG was pretty much smack on the rear
limit.

Closer inspection (taking the rudder off) found 800g of lead sheet bolted
to the fin post and with every sign of having been there for some time:
there was some paint overspray on the lead and the logbook showed that
the last work done on the rear fuselage was prior to the glider being
laid up for a year or two. After that it had its 3000 hour inspection and
was then flown for a year by its previous owner. I took the lead out. A
re-weighing then showed the CG to be in the middle of the permitted
range. A routine re-weighing last year (7 year check) showed the CG is
still in the middle of the range.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Z Goudie[_2_]]

And one that had a weld fail on one air brake control rod when I shut the
brakes before it's first flight after delivery! Could have been an
interesting winch launch.

I had every control rod out and in a fabrication shop X ray booth the next
day. It was the only bad one.

At 07:38 09 April 2015, John Galloway wrote:
>At 06:36 09 April 2015, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>>In the war bird community we had hangar flying sessions where we
>talked
>>abo=
>>ut the emergencies we experienced and how we handled them.
>These were
>>pric=
>>eless sessions! I learned what other pilots did in situations I had
>never
>>=
>>thought of. So here is my first post about something that taught me
>a
>>less=
>>on. Hopefully others will share their experiences too. This should
>be a
>>ju=
>>dgment free thread for learning and sharing.
>>
>>Here is something that taught me about flying. I had purchased a
>brand
>>new=
>> Ventus 2C (I think it was 2000 or 2001). As part of the options I had
>>the=
>> CG adjusted for pilot weight at the factory. When my shinny new
>glider
>>ar=
>>rived I was keen to get it in the air. My first big mistake was to
trust
>>t=
>>he factory W&B! I had never flown an aircraft out of the CG range
>except
>>o=
>>nce when a passenger lied to me about their weight (by 60 Lbs)
>while
>>flying=
>> a helicopter. I ran out of aft stick on landing, not a big event on a
>>pav=
>>ed runway. Anyway back to my story. My plan as always with a
>new (to nme)
>>=
>>glider was to take a high tow, do a few turns and stall or two, I was
>even
>>=
>>planning on a spin. Well on tow I noticed my new glider (first and
>only
>>ti=
>>me I purchased a new glider) was rather pitch sensitive, off tow, it
>was
>>al=
>>l I could do to keep it between 45 knots and 75 knots. Fortunately,
>the
>>da=
>>y was booming so staying up was not too difficult. I immediately
>>abandoned=
>> my plan of some turns, stalls and maybe a spin. I thought the
>problem
>>was=
>> with me as I had not been flying fixed wing aircraft much in the
>prior
>>two=
>> years. I flew for four hours, got a bit better controlling the speed.
>I
>>=
>>entered the pattern about 4,000 AGL and practised flying the pattern
>>keepin=
>>g my speed to within as small a speed deviation as I could. After
>landing
>>=
>>I thought the problem was with me and possibly the brand as I had
>heard
>>the=
>> first Ventus' were not known to be easy to fly. I thought nothing
>more
>>th=
>>an I need a bunch more time in this glider and never even
>mentioned my
>>spee=
>>d control problems to my fellow pilots as I was too embarassed. I
>put
>>abou=
>>t 20 hours on that glider in two months and even had a few notable
>>interest=
>>ing XC flights. With time I got much better at the speed control
>(used to
>>=
>>fly an all flying tail glider), but I never felt comfortable. Finally I
>>co=
>>nfessed my experiences to another pilot and that I thought
>somehow I could
>>=
>>not fly fixed wing aircraft anymore. Well, this pilot mentioned that it
>>so=
>>unded like a CG problem. That had never occurred to me, nor did I
>have
>>any=
>> experience in this area. Looked at the aircraft logbook again and
>had a
>>W=
>>&B done. The logs and W&B calculations done by the factory
>showed I need
>>1=
>>1 lbs of tail weight, the weight from the factory in the tail was 11
>>kilogr=
>>ams!!! I seem to remember NASA losing a Mars lander with JPL
>using metric
>>=
>>calculations and NASA using English system :(
>>
>>What did I learn: 1) Always perform a W&B on a glider that is new to
>you;
>>=
>> 2) Never be shy about admitting your flying problems to fellow
>pilots;
>>3)=
>> do not plan to perform stalls and spins on the very first flight; 4) do
>>no=
>>t make excuses for the glider or how it is flying or how you are flying
>>it,=
>> tell someone about it! =20
>>
>>Maybe someone else could add a few comments about what they
>would have
>>done=
>> and anything else I could learn from this. Also, share your own
>story
>>so=
>> we might all learn.
>
>I completely agree about thoroughly checking out brand new gliders.
>My experiences are:
>
>One delivered with a blocked tail tank dump valve and 2 litres of
>water in the tail tank.
>
>One with a tailplane rigging knob that was inside the fin at the base
>of the rudder by the starboard rudder control horn and interfering
>with full right rudder deflection.
>
>One with the TE tube disconnected from the fitting in the fin which
>required a hole to be cut in the fin to fix.
>
> >
>
>

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
, Jonathan St. Cloud says...
>
> In the war bird community we had hangar flying sessions where we
> talked about the emergencies we experienced and how we handled them.
> These were priceless sessions! I learned what other pilots did in
> situations I had never thought of. So here is my first post about
> something that taught me a lesson. Hopefully others will share their
> experiences too. This should be a judgment free thread for learning
> and sharing.

<snip>

Good stuff Jonathan, enjoyed the read.

--
Duncan.

[Mike the Strike]

I had a similar experience with a 20 year-old ASW-20. The previous owner had installed lead weights in the tail and wings without any logbook notation and the weight and balance was far off (aft of permitted). On one of my first flights, I eased back into a thermal and suddenly found myself looking upwards at blue sky!

I always do a weight and balance on new ships now!

Mike

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 9:46:26 AM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
> I had a similar experience with a 20 year-old ASW-20. The previous owner had installed lead weights in the tail and wings without any logbook notation and the weight and balance was far off (aft of permitted). On one of my first flights, I eased back into a thermal and suddenly found myself looking upwards at blue sky!
>
> I always do a weight and balance on new ships now!
>
> Mike

And even if you don't have a scale capable of the weight on the main, at least you can check the weight on the tail. If you look at W&B numbers, you can see that the weight on the main has a relatively small impact on the CG location. Being off on that weight by 20 or 30 lbs has a smaller effect on the CG than being off by 2 or 3 lbs on the tail weight. If the tail weight is close to what is recorded at the most recent W&B, odds are you can get a good handle on where your flight CG will be with you on board. If not, well, you better get a bigger scale to be able to check the whole plane!

Steve Leonard

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

How did you know the TE was disconnected? My first thought would be the vario does not work right, I would think it would be a process involving several flights and much frustration to find out the TE was disconnected?

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Anyone have a detailed checklist or procedure they use to inspect a new (or new to you) glider? How do you check TE connection on the ground?

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 12:10:17 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Anyone have a detailed checklist or procedure they use to inspect a new (or new to you) glider? How do you check TE connection on the ground?

The maintenance manuals from the bigger German Manufacturers all have very detailed annual and X,000 hour inspection checklists. That's probably a very good place to start. I used the checklists from LS (LS4 and LS8) every winter and always found at least a couple of things that needed adjusting or correction (minor corrosion, a loose fitting, etc.)

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 15:55 09 April 2015, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>How did you know the TE was disconnected? My first thought would be
the vario does not work right, I would think it would be a process
involving
>several flights and much frustration to find out the TE was disconnected?

Well since you ask -

It was a Duo. It was very obvious that the 302 vario had defective total

energy over the first few flights. There was no visible defect in the
tubing
or TE probe but when I sucked on the TE tube at the instrument end with
the TE tube outlets blocked it was obvious that there was a major leak. We

blew an air supply down the tube while I listened with a stethoscope down
the length of the fuselage and fin which told us only that it was from
somewhere in the fin area. I borrowed an old medical endoscope and we
introduced it through the elevator rod hole in the top of the fin could see
the
tube was completely detached from the fin fitting. The tricky bit was
getting
a photograph to prove it to the agent and factory so as to get the fin hole

and repair done under warranty as there was no direct line of sight - that

took an angled dentist's mirror in the fin, a camera peering into it and a
lot
of trial and error.

All three tubes were held on to the triple probe fitting by tie wraps which
are
worse than useless for that purpose.

John Galloway

[BobW]

On 4/9/2015 9:17 AM, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 9:46:26 AM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
>> I had a similar experience with a 20 year-old ASW-20. The previous owner
>> had installed lead weights in the tail and wings without any logbook
>> notation and the weight and balance was far off (aft of permitted). On
>> one of my first flights, I eased back into a thermal and suddenly found
>> myself looking upwards at blue sky!
>>
>> I always do a weight and balance on new ships now!
>>
>> Mike
>
> And even if you don't have a scale capable of the weight on the main, at
> least you can check the weight on the tail. If you look at W&B numbers,
> you can see that the weight on the main has a relatively small impact on
> the CG location. Being off on that weight by 20 or 30 lbs has a smaller
> effect on the CG than being off by 2 or 3 lbs on the tail weight. If the
> tail weight is close to what is recorded at the most recent W&B, odds are
> you can get a good handle on where your flight CG will be with you on
> board. If not, well, you better get a bigger scale to be able to check the
> whole plane!
>
> Steve Leonard
>

Heh! It took me - with George Applebay's help - 7 or 8 years to learn the 7
pounds of lead shown in my ship's build log/most-recent-W&B as being installed
in the aft fin was because the original owner weighed about 100 lb more than
my 140 pounds, and George wanted the CG "OK for the heavy guy." I'd never
bothered to do the arithmetic for me, being OK with "Kentucky windage" and
rationalization. Got away with it, too, though the embarrassment felt like it
might kill me.

I'd been flying "considerably aft" of George's defined limit for all that
time, and the fact that - once things were properly redone for my weight - I
could detect no change in flying qualities was scant comfort.

My rationale at the time was the recently-been-flown ship had only 30 hours on
it, so how far off could the CG be? (Ha ha ha! What an idiot I was. Pretty
damn far!)

Bob - Kids, it may be significant lotsa people have chimed in w. CG horror
stories - W.

[Bill D]

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 12:36:13 AM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> In the war bird community we had hangar flying sessions where we talked about the emergencies we experienced and how we handled them. These were priceless sessions! I learned what other pilots did in situations I had never thought of. So here is my first post about something that taught me a lesson. Hopefully others will share their experiences too. This should be a judgment free thread for learning and sharing.
>
> Here is something that taught me about flying. I had purchased a brand new Ventus 2C (I think it was 2000 or 2001). As part of the options I had the CG adjusted for pilot weight at the factory. When my shinny new glider arrived I was keen to get it in the air. My first big mistake was to trust the factory W&B! I had never flown an aircraft out of the CG range except once when a passenger lied to me about their weight (by 60 Lbs) while flying a helicopter. I ran out of aft stick on landing, not a big event on a paved runway. Anyway back to my story. My plan as always with a new (to me) glider was to take a high tow, do a few turns and stall or two, I was even planning on a spin. Well on tow I noticed my new glider (first and only time I purchased a new glider) was rather pitch sensitive, off tow, it was all I could do to keep it between 45 knots and 75 knots. Fortunately, the day was booming so staying up was not too difficult. I immediately abandoned my plan of some turns, stalls and maybe a spin. I thought the problem was with me as I had not been flying fixed wing aircraft much in the prior two years. I flew for four hours, got a bit better controlling the speed. I entered the pattern about 4,000 AGL and practised flying the pattern keeping my speed to within as small a speed deviation as I could. After landing I thought the problem was with me and possibly the brand as I had heard the first Ventus' were not known to be easy to fly. I thought nothing more than I need a bunch more time in this glider and never even mentioned my speed control problems to my fellow pilots as I was too embarassed. I put about 20 hours on that glider in two months and even had a few notable interesting XC flights. With time I got much better at the speed control (used to fly an all flying tail glider), but I never felt comfortable. Finally I confessed my experiences to another pilot and that I thought somehow I could not fly fixed wing aircraft anymore. Well, this pilot mentioned that it sounded like a CG problem. That had never occurred to me, nor did I have any experience in this area. Looked at the aircraft logbook again and had a W&B done. The logs and W&B calculations done by the factory showed I need 11 lbs of tail weight, the weight from the factory in the tail was 11 kilograms!!! I seem to remember NASA losing a Mars lander with JPL using metric calculations and NASA using English system :(
>
> What did I learn: 1) Always perform a W&B on a glider that is new to you; 2) Never be shy about admitting your flying problems to fellow pilots; 3) do not plan to perform stalls and spins on the very first flight; 4) do not make excuses for the glider or how it is flying or how you are flying it, tell someone about it!
>
> Maybe someone else could add a few comments about what they would have done and anything else I could learn from this. Also, share your own story so we might all learn.

Not really glider related but it could be.

Once, long ago, I was chugging across Oklahoma in a J3 Cub with about 70mph on the ASI. Then I noticed the airspeed acting "funny". Climb and the airspeed went up, dive and it went down - the exact opposite of what I'd been taught to expect. I had a couple of hours to go on the XC so I decided to ignore it for now - known power at a known pitch attitude would produce an airspeed close to what I wanted. Anyway, I knew a good mechanic at my destination.

Having not much else to do except navigate by road signs 1,000' below and town names on water towers, I started working out what my ASI problem was. I settled on a probable plugged pitot tube with the 'capacity' in the tubing leading to the panel making the ASI act like a rate of climb instrument.

Sure enough, when the mechanic heard the problem described, he nodded, reached under the Cub's panel to remove the rubber tube from the back of the ASI and using his compressed air blow-off gun blasted the pitot clear. Seems I had taken a bug-strike directly on the pitot and the remains had congealed into a solid plug.

Critters always make good hangar stories. Small furry ones like to nest in gliders and long slithery ones go in after them. But, that's another story.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 10:46:26 AM UTC-4, Mike the Strike wrote:
> I had a similar experience with a 20 year-old ASW-20. The previous owner had installed lead weights in the tail and wings without any logbook notation and the weight and balance was far off (aft of permitted). On one of my first flights, I eased back into a thermal and suddenly found myself looking upwards at blue sky!
>
> I always do a weight and balance on new ships now!
>
> Mike

CG issues seem to be "in the vane" for this thread.

It was an ASW-20C with "Nixon winglets".
Owned by my family for a number of years.
CG had been worked out (properly) and "tail ballasted" for one owner (who outweighed me by ~80lbs)(?)so that the normal CG was ~90% aft.
I used the "OEM lead disc's" in the nose, I believe it was 5.

[If you've ever done the lead disc's in a '20, you know they're a bit of a PITA to see/reach up in the nose]

I had quite a few hours in our older '20A as well as this '20C.
We had a "low time glass pilot" (one of our towpilots, he had lots of airplane time) also fly the '20 and he was heavy (maybe 100lbs more than me). We had him fly my ballast to keep the CG more forward. Good thought for us, a bit safer for him.

One day, he decided to move the CG aft just to "try it out". He removed a disc or 2 and flew.
Later on, I was going to fly and decided to try the CG "a wee bit further aft", so I removed a disc (hey kids, see where this is going?!?!).
TO & tow were "OK", general flying was a bit twitchy.
I then did a "cruise to thermal zoomie" and promptly did an "over the top" spin entry (glad I was a few thousand feet up!) followed by a recovery.
The owner was towing and got to watch me & my antics.
I did another zoomie with the same results (again seen by the owner while towing) which prompted a radio call from him of, "Spin much Chuck?!?!".

I backed off a bit on what I did (since I was now current in '20 spin recovery), was very mindful of pattern speed and had a nice landing.
We checked things out (on the ground) and that's when we figured out what happened.
I was "quite a bit aft" of the aft limit.

Moral...... "Don't ASSUME, check & verify"!

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Happened to another pilot I know (he has since left flying for medical reasons). He had a brand new ASW-27 and on, I believe it was his first flight, as he was coming in to land the airspeed was showing ever increasing speed.. He chased the airspeed just a bit and then thought he was flying fast enough. He held a steady pitch attitude and landed. After coming to a complete stop he was still showing airspeed. Tracked it down to a static tube from the airspeed was getting kinked when he closed the canopy which is why it was not affecting his altimeter too.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I had another experience where I took off in a glider with only 90 degree flaps for glide path control. I was a very low time pilot and still figuring out the "pilot thing", not that I have it figured out now. For those that have not flown a 90 degree flapped ship, I was taught to put in the flaps at a steady pace as pitched to an attitude (standing on the rudder pedals) then check the airspeed, because if you did not pitch down you might lose your airspeed and never get it back. Well I took off and did not check my airspeed until I was on tow in the air. I had no airspeed indication (pitot was unplugged during maintenance). I landed fast going very fast as I did not want to stall.

Lesson learned. I always check my airspeed is "alive" while accelerating on the ground. This is actually part of any powered aircraft takeoff "airspeed alive...rotation speed". Second lesson learned was when a ship comes back from maintenance do a very careful and through preflight. At one point in my life I was flying a big complex cabin class pressurized twin. I always flew it to the maintenance shop, but I NEVER picked it up, they had to fly it to me after maintenance. Kind of like the parachute rigger than has to jump with the chutes he repacks.

[Dave Nadler]

New gliders can be especially exciting.

A few years back I was lurking about preparing to go fly,
when a guy landed back early after his first flight in his
just-off- the-boat supership, in a huge huff. He ran at me
yelling "Your damn instruments don't work. Now go fly that thing
and figure out what's wrong". Oooyyyy, I've heard this
before, and its not my stuff that's the problem ;-)

I strapped in and noticed the ASI reading 0 as I lifted off.
Had a lovely afternoon soaring in this gorgeous new machine,
gotta love that new-paint smell.
Without working instruments of course.
On landing still irate owner ran up to the glider (thought
I'd given him enough time to cool off). I popped the canopy
and pointed at the ASI - now indicating 50 knots.

There was about a quart of water in the static lines
and various other silliness. He hadn't washed it (literally
opened the trailer, got the paperwork, and flew).
Best guess is final wash at the factory?
I'm not sure how that much water can get in the statics.

I've also seen (not recently) logbooks recording test flights
that obviously never happened.

Take special care around new machines!

Hope that is helpful,
Best Regards, Dave

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 5:50:24 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
> New gliders can be especially exciting.
>
> A few years back I was lurking about preparing to go fly,
> when a guy landed back early after his first flight in his
> just-off- the-boat supership, in a huge huff. He ran at me
> yelling "Your damn instruments don't work. Now go fly that thing
> and figure out what's wrong". Oooyyyy, I've heard this
> before, and its not my stuff that's the problem ;-)
>
> I strapped in and noticed the ASI reading 0 as I lifted off.
> Had a lovely afternoon soaring in this gorgeous new machine,
> gotta love that new-paint smell.
> Without working instruments of course.
> On landing still irate owner ran up to the glider (thought
> I'd given him enough time to cool off). I popped the canopy
> and pointed at the ASI - now indicating 50 knots.
>
> There was about a quart of water in the static lines
> and various other silliness. He hadn't washed it (literally
> opened the trailer, got the paperwork, and flew).
> Best guess is final wash at the factory?
> I'm not sure how that much water can get in the statics.
>
> I've also seen (not recently) logbooks recording test flights
> that obviously never happened.
>
> Take special care around new machines!
>
> Hope that is helpful,
> Best Regards, Dave

"Spring 1st flight", did the "puff on the TE probe" to make sure instruments worked.....

Yes they did, until 3/4 of the way down the runway where I was flying and the AS showed a much lower value.......

Either.....
-Tubes were gnawed by rodents over the winter (could take a puff, not a steady pressure stream)
-TE probe (swapped between multiple sailplanes) was not seated, thus a leak

Results on both, "What does it sounds like, what does it feel like?"
Fly the frikkin plane, resolve "stupid issues" later on.

Multiple cases yielded a multi hour (not efficient) soaring flight......

[Bill T]

There was a DG 800 motor glider that was delivered and crashed on its first flight on approach at the local airport. The elevator pushrod disconnected at the pivot horn at the base of the vertical fin. There was nothing locking the nut in place. Determined to be a factory defect in manufacturing.

BillT

[Mike the Strike]

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 8:36:19 PM UTC-7, Bill T wrote:
> There was a DG 800 motor glider that was delivered and crashed on its first flight on approach at the local airport. The elevator pushrod disconnected at the pivot horn at the base of the vertical fin. There was nothing locking the nut in place. Determined to be a factory defect in manufacturing.
>
> BillT

Years ago, I stupidly drilled through my rudder cable when installing a boom mike. When we removed the cable to replace it, we discovered that the factory had drilled through it about a foot further back, breaking about 40% of the strands.

Mike

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 09:10:15 -0700, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> Anyone have a detailed checklist or procedure they use to inspect a new
> (or new to you) glider? How do you check TE connection on the ground?

No detailed checklist, but I always check ASI and TE connection after
reinstalling my panel: I take it home when the glider is in winter
storage.

ASI check. My pitot is a fairly large metal tube sticking out of the fin-
about 12mm diam and 120mm long with a hemispherical end and 3-4mm hole in
its centre. I put my thumb over the hole and then close my hand around
the tube. If the ASI doesn't go up to about 20 kts and stay there until I
let go, I know there's a problem. The exact reading depends on the day
temperature because what makes the reading go up is the pressure rise due
to my hand warming the pitot probe.

TE check. With a vario on and volume fully up, I put a flat hand on
either side of the TE probe and blow hard between my hands. If the vario
yelps I know the TE connection is good.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Dave Nadler]

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 7:35:10 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> ASI check. My pitot is a fairly large metal tube sticking out of the fin-
> about 12mm diam and 120mm long with a hemispherical end and 3-4mm hole in
> its centre. I put my thumb over the hole and then close my hand around
> the tube. If the ASI doesn't go up to about 20 kts and stay there until I
> let go, I know there's a problem. The exact reading depends on the day
> temperature because what makes the reading go up is the pressure rise due
> to my hand warming the pitot probe.
>
> TE check. With a vario on and volume fully up, I put a flat hand on
> either side of the TE probe and blow hard between my hands. If the vario
> yelps I know the TE connection is good.

The above checks will not catch water in static,
nor leak in TE connection, nor leak in statics,
nor pitot plugged by bugs, all common problems...

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave

[Dan Marotta]

I've told this story before, but...

When I lived in Texas, I stored my ASW-19 in an open front shed along
with several gliders. One day at takeoff speed, I glanced at the ASI
and saw an odd reading (I don't recall what it was). After liftoff I
noted that my vario was acting strangely as well. I figured there was a
problem with my static system.

Remembering my Air Force training, I thought I'd break the glass in the
mechanical vario thus venting the statics to the cockpit. Then I
thought that I, instead of the tax payers, would have to pay for the
damages, so I reached under the panel and disconnected the static line
from the ASI. Everything then worked pretty well and I had a nice flight.

Not having any compressed air on the ground, I disconnected the static
line at the "T" behind the panel and extended it sufficiently to reach
overboard. Then using a very large syringe filled with water, I pumped
water into one of the static ports with the other one securely covered.
What came out of the line by the cockpit was a load of cut up grass and
a bunch of ants who had decided to make my static system into their home.

I moved the glider to an air source and thoroughly blew out the lines,
reassembled, tested, and called it good. It was. After that I taped
over my static lines when the glider was parked and had big red
streamers hanging from the tape so I wouldn't forget.

On 4/10/2015 5:38 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 7:35:10 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> ASI check. My pitot is a fairly large metal tube sticking out of the fin-
>> about 12mm diam and 120mm long with a hemispherical end and 3-4mm hole in
>> its centre. I put my thumb over the hole and then close my hand around
>> the tube. If the ASI doesn't go up to about 20 kts and stay there until I
>> let go, I know there's a problem. The exact reading depends on the day
>> temperature because what makes the reading go up is the pressure rise due
>> to my hand warming the pitot probe.
>>
>> TE check. With a vario on and volume fully up, I put a flat hand on
>> either side of the TE probe and blow hard between my hands. If the vario
>> yelps I know the TE connection is good.
> The above checks will not catch water in static,
> nor leak in TE connection, nor leak in statics,
> nor pitot plugged by bugs, all common problems...
>
> Hope that helps,
> Best Regards, Dave

--
Dan Marotta

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Dave Nadler wrote: "The above checks will not catch water in static,
nor leak in TE connection, nor leak in statics,
nor pitot plugged by bugs, all common problems... "

Not being very mechanical I was wondering if someone could explain what procedures will detect water in the systems, leaks in the systems, plugged pitot,... etc. Thanks fellow pilots for all the great discussions.

[Bill D]

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 10:16:19 AM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Dave Nadler wrote: "The above checks will not catch water in static,
> nor leak in TE connection, nor leak in statics,
> nor pitot plugged by bugs, all common problems... "
>
> Not being very mechanical I was wondering if someone could explain what procedures will detect water in the systems, leaks in the systems, plugged pitot,... etc. Thanks fellow pilots for all the great discussions.

There are such things as water traps for pitot/static systems which go in a low spot. I recall some of these are transparent so they can be inspected for water.

This is not exactly what I was thinking of but it gives the idea.
http://www.trutechtools.com/Bacharach-Water-TrapFilter-Assembly_p_1472.html

The filter would keep insects out of the system.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 9:16:19 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Not being very mechanical I was wondering if someone could explain what procedures will detect water in the systems, leaks in the systems, plugged pitot,... etc. Thanks fellow pilots for all the great discussions.

To check for leaks, connect panel end of tube to airspeed pitot and put tape over other end. Connect a syringe to static on airspeed and gently pull a vacuum until airspeed reads around 80 knots. It should stay that way for many minutes.

Applying pressurized air to plumbing that runs through the fuselage may cause some hidden connection to break apart. Always use a vacuum.