Chukar's own account

[Bob Pasker]

This came from the SoarNV mailing list:

-----

On Easter Sunday, Bob Spielman, known as Chukar, was caught in clouds on a very lively wave day and had to bail out of his wingless glider. He visited us today. He is in good spirits and flying once again. He has his 1-26 and his Sparrow Hawk to keep him in the sky.

This is his first person account of what happened, reprinted here with his permission.

Oh, and we now call him Lucky Chukar.

Here is his account:



to my friends
i was going to fly my biggest flight in my ASW 27 today, aiming for 12 hours. i took off at minden at 7:30
and went north to Stead and turned back for clouds ad flew south to Mammoth and then went north almost to Susanville.
it was slow and as i was passing over Reno i went between 2 clouds which filled in suddenly. I should have had a neat attitude indicater like Gordo has and i tried to fly my Garmin but it was so rough that things went to hell in a hurry.
I was IFR at 14000' and i felt a stall and then the airspeed increased fast thru 160k and i heard 2 pops and the canopy broke
i shortly came out the bottom of the clouds in a spin at maybe 9-10000' and tried to break the spin but it didn't work and i looked and saw the left wing wasn't there so i knew that wouldn't work.
I unlocked the emerg canopy release, open my harness and went over the side.. i saw stuff flying thru the air (2 nanos,handheld radio. lunch etc) and couln't find my ripcord and thought it was gone but looked lower and found it and pulled it and it wasn't a very long ride down and i saw the glider fuselage going down below me.
i thought i was going to land on the CIRCUS CIRCUS roof but missed it an then i landed on the st mary hospital
roof but hoped my chute would snag the light pole. i hit the light and the chute snagged it and i ended up 10'
in the air. a reno cop pushed up on my feet so i could release my chute and slide down the pole.
HOW LUCKY I WAS.

I didn't go to the hospital but my son and daughter in law doctor told me i had to and they found a broken collar bone
and my right lung was collapsed so they had that fixed in an hour by 2 doctors who are in our air guard hospital.

i lost my phone so no service.

LUCKY CHUKAR
that ASW 27 was a beautiful glider.

[waremark]

On Wednesday, 22 April 2015 13:52:42 UTC+1, Bob Pasker wrote:
> This came from the SoarNV mailing list:
>
> -----
>
> On Easter Sunday, Bob Spielman, known as Chukar, was caught in clouds on a very lively wave day and had to bail out of his wingless glider. He visited us today. He is in good spirits and flying once again. He has his 1-26 and his Sparrow Hawk to keep him in the sky.
>
> This is his first person account of what happened, reprinted here with his permission.
>
> Oh, and we now call him Lucky Chukar.
>
> Here is his account:
>
>
>
> to my friends
> i was going to fly my biggest flight in my ASW 27 today, aiming for 12 hours. i took off at minden at 7:30
> and went north to Stead and turned back for clouds ad flew south to Mammoth and then went north almost to Susanville.
> it was slow and as i was passing over Reno i went between 2 clouds which filled in suddenly. I should have had a neat attitude indicater like Gordo has and i tried to fly my Garmin but it was so rough that things went to hell in a hurry.
> I was IFR at 14000' and i felt a stall and then the airspeed increased fast thru 160k and i heard 2 pops and the canopy broke
> i shortly came out the bottom of the clouds in a spin at maybe 9-10000' and tried to break the spin but it didn't work and i looked and saw the left wing wasn't there so i knew that wouldn't work.
> I unlocked the emerg canopy release, open my harness and went over the side. i saw stuff flying thru the air (2 nanos,handheld radio. lunch etc) and couln't find my ripcord and thought it was gone but looked lower and found it and pulled it and it wasn't a very long ride down and i saw the glider fuselage going down below me.
> i thought i was going to land on the CIRCUS CIRCUS roof but missed it an then i landed on the st mary hospital
> roof but hoped my chute would snag the light pole. i hit the light and the chute snagged it and i ended up 10'
> in the air. a reno cop pushed up on my feet so i could release my chute and slide down the pole.
> HOW LUCKY I WAS.
>
> I didn't go to the hospital but my son and daughter in law doctor told me i had to and they found a broken collar bone
> and my right lung was collapsed so they had that fixed in an hour by 2 doctors who are in our air guard hospital.
>
> i lost my phone so no service.
>
> LUCKY CHUKAR
> that ASW 27 was a beautiful glider.



Perhaps a relief that he does not mention opening the airbrakes, and finding that this did not save him (no mention of what he did between entering cloud and speed getting to 160k). I think the collective wisdom here has been that if you lose visual references and don't have instrument flying instruments which you trust, you should be pretty quick to open the airbrakes before the speed gets high. I was one who voted for in trim, hands and feet off, brakes open. I would pray that airspeed did not exceed positive flap limiting speed, otherwise I would be faced with a difficult decision on flap setting.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

I would throw out everything you have got and DON'T LET GO OF THE STICK. The plane's stick free pitch stability is MUCH worse than its stick fixed stability. When you let go, you are a passenger, accepting whatever the upset brings you. Stay active, and aware of what is happening, and you have a chance. Even if Active is just holding the stick in one position. As to exceeding flaps down limit speed, I would rather have the drag and hope that it hangs together than not have the drag and be pretty well assured that it won't. If you have lost sight of the ground, drag is your friend and speed kills.

But, that is just me.

Steve Leonard

[BG[_4_]]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 5:52:42 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
> This came from the SoarNV mailing list:
>
> -----
>
> On Easter Sunday, Bob Spielman, known as Chukar, was caught in clouds on a very lively wave day and had to bail out of his wingless glider. He visited us today. He is in good spirits and flying once again. He has his 1-26 and his Sparrow Hawk to keep him in the sky.
>
> This is his first person account of what happened, reprinted here with his permission.
>
> Oh, and we now call him Lucky Chukar.
>
> Here is his account:
>
>
>
> to my friends
> i was going to fly my biggest flight in my ASW 27 today, aiming for 12 hours. i took off at minden at 7:30
> and went north to Stead and turned back for clouds ad flew south to Mammoth and then went north almost to Susanville.
> it was slow and as i was passing over Reno i went between 2 clouds which filled in suddenly. I should have had a neat attitude indicater like Gordo has and i tried to fly my Garmin but it was so rough that things went to hell in a hurry.
> I was IFR at 14000' and i felt a stall and then the airspeed increased fast thru 160k and i heard 2 pops and the canopy broke
> i shortly came out the bottom of the clouds in a spin at maybe 9-10000' and tried to break the spin but it didn't work and i looked and saw the left wing wasn't there so i knew that wouldn't work.
> I unlocked the emerg canopy release, open my harness and went over the side. i saw stuff flying thru the air (2 nanos,handheld radio. lunch etc) and couln't find my ripcord and thought it was gone but looked lower and found it and pulled it and it wasn't a very long ride down and i saw the glider fuselage going down below me.
> i thought i was going to land on the CIRCUS CIRCUS roof but missed it an then i landed on the st mary hospital
> roof but hoped my chute would snag the light pole. i hit the light and the chute snagged it and i ended up 10'
> in the air. a reno cop pushed up on my feet so i could release my chute and slide down the pole.
> HOW LUCKY I WAS.
>
> I didn't go to the hospital but my son and daughter in law doctor told me i had to and they found a broken collar bone
> and my right lung was collapsed so they had that fixed in an hour by 2 doctors who are in our air guard hospital.
>
> i lost my phone so no service.
>
> LUCKY CHUKAR
> that ASW 27 was a beautiful glider.


There is more to this story if you look at the GPS track that was being posted by SSA Tracker page. The glider covered over 70 km going down wind to avoid the closed gap to over the Dog Skins and then was penetrating upwind when the problem occurred. The canopy was still attached to the glider when it landed in a parking lot, so the emergency release did not eject the canopy. The second wing was finally found close by, it went through a roof and was found inside a building. Good thing none of these pieces hurt someone on the ground.

All the discussion about this accident has over shadowed the accomplishment of Jim Payne who was well prepared and did a amazing flight at just under 3000km on the same day. I believe it is really important to focus on how to prepare and execute a flight in these strong wave conditions, rather than dwell on how lucky one was to survive. Given most of the facts, surviving was pure luck being snagged 10 ft off the ground by a light pole at the edge of a 5 story building.

BG

[krasw]

On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:
> I would throw out everything you have got and DON'T LET GO OF THE STICK. The plane's stick free pitch stability is MUCH worse than its stick fixed stability. When you let go, you are a passenger, accepting whatever the upset brings you. Stay active, and aware of what is happening, and you have a chance. Even if Active is just holding the stick in one position.



Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right control inputs to get you out of trouble?

[Ramy[_2_]]

Yes, it is called benign spiral...

Ramy

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 23:51:24 -0700, krasw wrote:

> Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
> glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
> control inputs to get you out of trouble?
>
As I said in another thread, our (BGA-approved) cloud flying course says
to open the brakes and then use your hands and feet to hold rudder and
stick central - exactly the opposite of 'letting go of the stick'.

Mark: Chukar does say that he felt a stall and then the speed increased
rapidly to 160kts.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Jock Proudfoot]

At 06:51 23 April 2015, krasw wrote:
>On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:

>Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
control in puts to get you out of trouble?
>

The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/articles/1006_spin_recovery.asp

[Tango Whisky]

Le jeudi 23 avril 2015 10:19:49 UTC+2, Ramy a écrit*:
> Yes, it is called benign spiral...
>
> Ramy

I think that the benign spiral is an urban myth when it comes to flying in a convective cloud, or descending through a cloud layer into a rotor.

The only excuse to let go of the controls is that you are busy to bail out.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 4/23/2015 12:51 AM, krasw wrote:
> On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:
>> I would throw out everything you have got and DON'T LET GO OF THE STICK.
>> The plane's stick free pitch stability is MUCH worse than its stick fixed
>> stability. When you let go, you are a passenger, accepting whatever the
>> upset brings you. Stay active, and aware of what is happening, and you
>> have a chance. Even if Active is just holding the stick in one
>> position.
>
>
>
> Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
> glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
> control inputs to get you out of trouble?
>

For SSA members, check out the "Soaring" archive: November 1979, p. 28.

http://www.ssa.org/Archive/ViewIssue.aspx?year=1979&month=11&page=28

Attributed 2nd-hand to Einar Enevoldson (I couldn't find a direct writeup from
him, though maybe it's there); bullet 5 begins: "Take your hands and feet
completely off the controls..." The succinct article also contains "all the
expected caveats" known to the author at the time, while additional "benign
spiral mode" references within the archives elaborate on the points raised.

For many years (most of his career?), Einar Enevoldson was a NASA test pilot,
in addition to being a 3-diamond sailplane pilot, eventually sparkplug behind
the Perlan Project, and current world sailplane record altitude co-holder.

Bob W.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 12:21:49 +0000, Jock Proudfoot wrote:

> At 06:51 23 April 2015, krasw wrote:
>>On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:
>
>>Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
> glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
> control in puts to get you out of trouble?
>>
>>
> The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
> http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/articles/1006_spin_recovery.asp

Interesting read. I wondered what Wolfgang Langweische had the say on the
subject (pages 342-345 in my copy). He's not as prescriptive but I think
his explanation and analysis is better.

Of course the answer is good pre-solo spin training and mandatory annual
spin checks at the start of each season: no spin checks, no fly. If you
or your club does winch launches, add a couple of launch failures to the
spin checks: the CFI can pull the bung himself or arrange for the winch
driver to simulate a power failure at an agreed altitude.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[krasw]

torstai 23. huhtikuuta 2015 15.30.04 UTC+3 Jock Proudfoot kirjoitti:
> At 06:51 23 April 2015, krasw wrote:
> >On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:
>
> >Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
> glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
> control in puts to get you out of trouble?
> >
>
> The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
> http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/articles/1006_spin_recovery.asp

Thanks for interesting link. Trick calls for exact rudder input from the pilot, which is impossible in imc without gyros. And to extrapolate this to cover all gliders sounds like a major leap of faith. Paradoxically, stable spin would be safe way to get out of the cloud without instruments. But I'm not advocating that, most gliders will spin for a while and then go into spiral until things start to break apart.

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 9:32:58 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> Of course the answer is good pre-solo spin training and mandatory annual spin checks at the start of each season: no spin checks, no fly.

Spin and Cloud Flying training are just too dangerous in the USA. And when IMC or a spin turn out bad, it's a Tragic Accident, not a Tragic Training Gap. The UK is reckless to provide training for these 'eventualities that should not happen' before they happen.

Sincerely, ****ed Off and Not Serious...

[Mike I Green]

On 4/23/2015 5:21 AM, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
> At 06:51 23 April 2015, krasw wrote:
>> On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:
>
>> Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
> glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
> control in puts to get you out of trouble?
>>
>
> The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
> http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/articles/1006_spin_recovery.asp
>
Try it. I did. You may like it.

I never really needed it.

MG

--
Mike I Green

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

At 14:08 23 April 2015, son_of_flubber wrote:
>On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 9:32:58 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
>> Of course the answer is good pre-solo spin training and mandatory
annual
>=
>spin checks at the start of each season: no spin checks, no fly.=20
>
>Spin and Cloud Flying training are just too dangerous in the USA. And
when
>=
>IMC or a spin turn out bad, it's a Tragic Accident, not a Tragic Training
>G=
>ap. The UK is reckless to provide training for these 'eventualities that
>sh=
>ould not happen' before they happen.
>
>Sincerely, ****ed Off and Not Serious...
>

I related the story to my so in law a a lapsed glider instructor and
current
737 driver.
His answer before I really finished was "his pitot froze,dived to try to
regain
airspeed and pulled the wings off "
And of course that makes sense the airframe is cold soaked and the cloud
has
to be wet or it wouldn't be a cloud .

Just wish it had been so obvious to me.

[[email protected]]

The "let go of the stick" part is probably a souvenir of the period (some 50 years ago) when gliders had airbrakes that kept the speed below Vne even in a vertical dive (this used to be specified in the standard class rules, before the Libelle/Cirrus/ASW-15 generation came up - see the Schweizer stories about vertical dive test flights). The technique you found in many gliding (teaching) manuals was indeed: "trim fully forward, airbrakes fully open, let go of the stick and rudder". At least here in Europe.

With modern gliders, the Vne limit will be reached long before a vertical dive position even with airbrakes fully deployed (I seem to remember that a 30° dive is sufficient with some open class self launchers or fully ballasted gliders). So it is probably common sense to try to hold the stick steady in pitch after trimming forward.

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 12:00:05 PM UTC-7, Jonathon May wrote:
> At 14:08 23 April 2015, son_of_flubber wrote:
> >On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 9:32:58 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> >
> >> Of course the answer is good pre-solo spin training and mandatory
> annual
> >=
> >spin checks at the start of each season: no spin checks, no fly.=20
> >
> >Spin and Cloud Flying training are just too dangerous in the USA. And
> when
> >=
> >IMC or a spin turn out bad, it's a Tragic Accident, not a Tragic Training
> >G=
> >ap. The UK is reckless to provide training for these 'eventualities that
> >sh=
> >ould not happen' before they happen.
> >
> >Sincerely, ****ed Off and Not Serious...
> >
>
> I related the story to my so in law a a lapsed glider instructor and
> current
> 737 driver.
> His answer before I really finished was "his pitot froze,dived to try to
> regain
> airspeed and pulled the wings off "
> And of course that makes sense the airframe is cold soaked and the cloud
> has
> to be wet or it wouldn't be a cloud .
>
> Just wish it had been so obvious to me.

I think this could be the case in a power plane but not a glider. We dont easily get fooled by a frozen pitot thanks to wind noise, especially not an experience pilot like Bob. Also his airspeed was showing over 160 knots before the wings broke off, so I very much doubt this is a case of frozen pitot. This is a simple case of loosing control due to disorientation in the cloud without proper instruments to regain control. Stall, spin turned into spiral, pilot pulls the stick instinctively to slow down which of course only make things worse in spiral, until wings broke off.

Ramy

[kirk.stant]

LS6 does NOT have a benign spiral mode. And if I stall IMC with the flaps in cruise or thermalling position, it won't spin either - it will depart directly into a spiral. Which unless corrected pretty quickly, will leave you with a 1 meter wingspan LS6.

Without gyro instuments and training, IMC in a modern glass glider is a quick way to destroy that glider.

With gyros and training, it's just another skill - ask the Brits, who seem pretty good at it.

I suggest Son_of_Flubber get some education on how the Brits practice cloud flying before calling them "reckless".

A subscription to "Sailplane and Gliding" (The BGA's magazine) would be a good start to his education....

Kirk
LS6b 66

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 7:30:04 AM UTC-5, Jock Proudfoot wrote:

>
> The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
> http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/articles/1006_spin_recovery.asp

This applies to POWER PLANES in a SPIN. It DOES NOT APPLY to a modern glass glider IN A SPIRAL DIVE.

Anyone who doesn't understand the fundamental difference between these two situations really needs to get in the books!

Kirk
66

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 9:08:24 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

> Spin and Cloud Flying training are just too dangerous in the USA.

Would you care to explain this remarkable statement?

How many accidents/injuries/fatalities annually are attributed to spin and cloud flying training in the USA?

Statistically, I would argue that landing training is just too dangerous in the USA, so we can just all pack up and go home now...

Kirk
66

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 4:15:24 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:

> I suggest Son_of_Flubber get some education on how the Brits practice cloud flying before calling them "reckless".
>
> A subscription to "Sailplane and Gliding" (The BGA's magazine) would be a good start to his education....

Kirk,

You overlooked the sarcastic intent of my earlier post. I'd rather not come right out and say what I really think about the USA approach to Spin and Cloud Flying training (because I'm not a CFI-G or an elite pilot.)

But I think that the same USA mindset comes into play for both sorts of training. The UK mindset seems starkly different. I take it from Martin's comments that most UK glider pilots are confident about spin recovery and quite a few are confident about cloud flying. If you step outside the ranks of elite USA glider pilots, there are quite a few pilots that are not confident about spin recovery, and emergency cloud flying capability is rare, much rarer than glider pilots flying in wave.

I expect that quite a few glider pilots like me get ****ed off when another pilot enters a spin at a recoverable altitude but dies. If I fly into IMC and die from lacking of training/instruments... I'm going to be really ****ed off.

Sure. I can take the initiative to train IFR in a SEL and add instruments to my panel (but I can't practice in 'easy clouds', gain proficiency and stay current). Some individuals will do that. But if I lived in the UK, the training culture would have me ready to fly in clouds by now. The USA safety culture is broken wrt spins and cloud flying (and perhaps other scenarios are treated likewise).

[[email protected]]

I have given a lot of thought as to what I would do in my Ventus b given such circumstances and my conclusion is one that I have tried in the ventus but not in any other glider. I would ask Kirk to try it in his ls6 and report back.

Thinking of what breaks gliders up and it always comes down to speed. Over speed and something breaks off. So for the Ventus B the only way to be able to control only the speed, I would say here that the other two axis have to be at the stops so that the only thing I am controlling is pitch and therefore speed, BEFORE losing spacial awareness, I get it as dirty as I can. Full dive brakes, gear down. I don't have to worry about flaps as when the dive brakes our fully open the flaps are down, but if I have time I would put then down as well as it puts the ailerons down a bit as well. Then cross control to full deflection of the stick and depression of the rudder, doesn't matter which direction as long as you go to full deflection. Once the stick is at the aileron stop the only movement is pitch and that I focus on the airspeed indicator and keep it between 60-90 knots.

Now in the ventus this gives me a slow turning (30-45 second) spiral dive that is fairly stable and even in turbulence is easy enough to maintain 60-90 kts. This allows me to concentrate on only one thing airspeed. This is also giving me about a 2000 fpm descent rate usually enough to come out the bottom of most any cloud.

Any way, I would like to see if that would work in almost any glider or is it unique to the ventus. Flame shields on!

CH

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 5:52:42 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
> This came from the SoarNV mailing list:
>
> -----
>
> On Easter Sunday, Bob Spielman, known as Chukar, was caught in clouds on a very lively wave day and had to bail out of his wingless glider. He visited us today. He is in good spirits and flying once again. He has his 1-26 and his Sparrow Hawk to keep him in the sky.
>
> This is his first person account of what happened, reprinted here with his permission.
>
> Oh, and we now call him Lucky Chukar.
>
> Here is his account:
>
>
>
> to my friends
> i was going to fly my biggest flight in my ASW 27 today, aiming for 12 hours. i took off at minden at 7:30
> and went north to Stead and turned back for clouds ad flew south to Mammoth and then went north almost to Susanville.
> it was slow and as i was passing over Reno i went between 2 clouds which filled in suddenly. I should have had a neat attitude indicater like Gordo has and i tried to fly my Garmin but it was so rough that things went to hell in a hurry.
> I was IFR at 14000' and i felt a stall and then the airspeed increased fast thru 160k and i heard 2 pops and the canopy broke
> i shortly came out the bottom of the clouds in a spin at maybe 9-10000' and tried to break the spin but it didn't work and i looked and saw the left wing wasn't there so i knew that wouldn't work.
> I unlocked the emerg canopy release, open my harness and went over the side. i saw stuff flying thru the air (2 nanos,handheld radio. lunch etc) and couln't find my ripcord and thought it was gone but looked lower and found it and pulled it and it wasn't a very long ride down and i saw the glider fuselage going down below me.
> i thought i was going to land on the CIRCUS CIRCUS roof but missed it an then i landed on the st mary hospital
> roof but hoped my chute would snag the light pole. i hit the light and the chute snagged it and i ended up 10'
> in the air. a reno cop pushed up on my feet so i could release my chute and slide down the pole.
> HOW LUCKY I WAS.
>
> I didn't go to the hospital but my son and daughter in law doctor told me i had to and they found a broken collar bone
> and my right lung was collapsed so they had that fixed in an hour by 2 doctors who are in our air guard hospital.
>
> i lost my phone so no service.
>
> LUCKY CHUKAR
> that ASW 27 was a beautiful glider.

Anyone ever considered a DuckHawk? If you hit 160 knots all you need to worry about is tightening your belts up and keep that enormous smile on your face! 160 knots indicated is Maneuver speed even at Bob's altitude and above.. It's a hard argument to say that all of the extra margin both structurally (+11g/-9g airframe) and in the speed envelope (VNE 200 knots for DuckHawk SV or 225 knots DuckHawk VNX) isn't the best way in the soaring world to buy yourself safety. It doesn't guarantee that you don't have a bad situation still happen here but it sure opens up a lot of other doors for an a potential to escape. Oh yeah not to mention that you would smash the records set that day by Payne.

Bob if you get a chance to read this know that we at Windward love you buddy and we are so glad you made it out of that ok! It brought a huge smile to my face to look up the Reno news link and see a picture of you, the cop, and the EMT all laughing. I thought to myself, "yep that's Bob making even the emergency responders laugh and feel good"
Way to go Lucky Chuckar.

Wade

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Not sure about others..... but, I did read your parting remark...

"Sincerely, ****ed Off and Not Serious... "

I understood the intent and did read the "sarcasm" throughout the post.

So, in short, it was not lost on everyone. ;-)

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 19:29 23 April 2015, wrote:
>The "let go of the stick" part is probably a souvenir of the period (some
>5=
>0 years ago) when gliders had airbrakes that kept the speed below Vne
even
>=
>in a vertical dive (this used to be specified in the standard class
rules,
>=
>before the Libelle/Cirrus/ASW-15 generation came up - see the Schweizer
>sto=
>ries about vertical dive test flights). The technique you found in many
>gli=
>ding (teaching) manuals was indeed: "trim fully forward, airbrakes fully
>op=
>en, let go of the stick and rudder". At least here in Europe.
>
>With modern gliders, the Vne limit will be reached long before a vertical
>d=
>ive position even with airbrakes fully deployed (I seem to remember that
a
>=
>30=B0 dive is sufficient with some open class self launchers or fully
>balla=
>sted gliders). So it is probably common sense to try to hold the stick
>stea=
>dy in pitch after trimming forward.

Benign spiral does work in most gliders. It involves trimming the glider to
say 55kts and then making sure that you do NOT move the stick against the
trim, in other words you maintain neutral stick input. It is a technique
that will allow you to descend through cloud if you do not have blind
flying instruments. A few important caveats. It would be difficult if not
impossible to set up while in cloud, the idea is that you set up while
clear of cloud. The original concept was to recover if the cloud gaps
closed beneath you, NOT if you are already in cloud. The other caveat is
that if you have given your airframe a really cold soak, when you descend
into the cloud you will pick up ice, clouds tend to have moisture, which
may be a complete game changer.

[krasw]

On Friday, 24 April 2015 11:45:06 UTC+3, Don Johnstone wrote:
The other caveat is
> that if you have given your airframe a really cold soak, when you descend
> into the cloud you will pick up ice, clouds tend to have moisture, which
> may be a complete game changer.

Gliders fly pretty well with ice. You get ice in pretty much every climb to FL80-FL100 in my latitudes, most of the time there is few centimeters of rime ice on leading edges. You notice this while climbing as the airspeed starts to creep up while maintaining same turn rate and pitch attitude. I have only once noticed unusual friction with controls, and that was actually outside cloud. Cloud was apparently bit warmer and water droplets ran to aileron gap, and then froze outside cu in colder air. TE probe usually is the first to get ice, and if you don't have a variometer with electric compensation you probably loose the thermal soon. Pitot probe icing means it's time to open airbrakes and get out of the cloud asap. But at that point you have ice all over wings. It should be obvious that glider with icy wings glides like a brick, and in cold airmass ice melts sometimes at disturbingly low altitude (bug wipers are very good for wiping melting ice).

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 00:37:12 -0700, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
wrote:

> Not sure about others..... but, I did read your parting remark...
>
> "Sincerely, ****ed Off and Not Serious... "
>
> I understood the intent and did read the "sarcasm" throughout the post.
>
> So, in short, it was not lost on everyone. ;-)

+1


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

Re the full-aileron cross-control suggestion a few posts up:

As I understood it, you were giving full rudder also?

Wow, I've never heard anything like that suggested before.

One thing I'd urge you to further explore: how much variation in airspeed can be tolerated before the glider is no longer in a stable spiral? E.g. if the airspeed accidentally increases by X mph, do you the dynamics change enough that you go out of control? The dynamics that keep the various turning forces approximately balanced, and the various roll torques exactly balanced, may be extremely airspeed-sensitive.

I'm not guessing one way or the other, just curious.

S

[[email protected]]

(Continuing from previous)

Also the initial bank angle might matter. What did you use?

I know at least one glider where a full-deflection cross-control will result in no turn at all, at least at higher airspeeds. In one aircraft (not a glider) I could hold a full-deflection cross-control and would end up banked only slightly toward the high aileron, and going round and round in a turn in the opposite direction, toward the high wingtip, at least at low airspeeds. This situation was very stable.

You've certainly raised an interesting idea. I hope others explore and share.

S

[[email protected]]

Thank you "Lucky Chukar" Bob Spielman for you account of what happened on this flight.

I will be trying out the benign spiral this weekend or the next.

Chuck Zabinski

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 4:50:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I have given a lot of thought as to what I would do in my Ventus b given such circumstances and my conclusion is one that I have tried in the ventus but not in any other glider. I would ask Kirk to try it in his ls6 and report back.
>
> Thinking of what breaks gliders up and it always comes down to speed. Over speed and something breaks off. So for the Ventus B the only way to be able to control only the speed, I would say here that the other two axis have to be at the stops so that the only thing I am controlling is pitch and therefore speed, BEFORE losing spacial awareness, I get it as dirty as I can. Full dive brakes, gear down. I don't have to worry about flaps as when the dive brakes our fully open the flaps are down, but if I have time I would put then down as well as it puts the ailerons down a bit as well. Then cross control to full deflection of the stick and depression of the rudder, doesn't matter which direction as long as you go to full deflection. Once the stick is at the aileron stop the only movement is pitch and that I focus on the airspeed indicator and keep it between 60-90 knots.
>
> Now in the ventus this gives me a slow turning (30-45 second) spiral dive that is fairly stable and even in turbulence is easy enough to maintain 60-90 kts. This allows me to concentrate on only one thing airspeed. This is also giving me about a 2000 fpm descent rate usually enough to come out the bottom of most any cloud.
>
> Any way, I would like to see if that would work in almost any glider or is it unique to the ventus. Flame shields on!
>
> CH

I will make a point to try this in my Ventus C next time I have lots of altitude, and report back.

Matt

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 06:18:59 -0700, platypterus101 wrote:

> Re the full-aileron cross-control suggestion a few posts up:
>
> As I understood it, you were giving full rudder also?
>
> Wow, I've never heard anything like that suggested before.
>
> One thing I'd urge you to further explore: how much variation in
> airspeed can be tolerated before the glider is no longer in a stable
> spiral? E.g. if the airspeed accidentally increases by X mph, do you
> the dynamics change enough that you go out of control? The dynamics
> that keep the various turning forces approximately balanced, and the
> various roll torques exactly balanced, may be extremely
> airspeed-sensitive.
>
> I'm not guessing one way or the other, just curious.
>
I think you've misplaced this post. I haven't made and "full-aileron
cross-control suggestions" in this or any other thread.

What I *did* say is that my club requires members to do annual spin and
winch launch failure check flights. We do this at the start of each
flying season: members are not authorised to fly solo until these have
been completed. This sounds eminently sensible to me.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

My initial entry into the cross control is usually with wings level just initiate a forward slip. Second thought is that speed between 60-90 doesn't seem to change the dynamic much a little more buffeting and shaking the faster you go but that happens in the ventus with dive brakes open in level flight.

CH

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 17:40 24 April 2015, wrote:
>My initial entry into the cross control is usually with wings level just
>in=
>itiate a forward slip. Second thought is that speed between 60-90 doesn't
>s=
>eem to change the dynamic much a little more buffeting and shaking the
>fast=
>er you go but that happens in the ventus with dive brakes open in level
>fli=
>ght.
>
>CH

What about the sideslip IAS errors when trying to control airspeed by
flying
so cross-controlled in a spiral dive?

And are there issues with torsional stresses on the tail boom at 90 kts IAS

(probably more from pitot cross-flow errors) with sustained full rudder? I

have no idea whether that is a worry in the proposed scenario but I am
recalling the ETA that twisted off its tail in a spin recovery.

[Tango Whisky]

Eta twisted off the tail boom during a recovery from a spiral dive, not a spin. Huge difference in loads.

Bert
TW

[Bob Pasker]

Beggs/Mueller only works on aircraft certified for spins, because those aircraft will naturally exit the spin. Planes slow to exit the spin (like my Mooney http://www.mooneyevents.com/spins.html) need brisk full forward elevator. And even those certified for spins, with B/M, the CG needs to be far enough forward that the aircraft will nose over when the rotation stops. Even then (and I've posted this before), once the spin stops, you still have to break the dive without exceeding Vne (too slowly) and without a secondary accelerated stall (too fast).

here's a video of me in upset training recovering from an inverted spin using B/M: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlVFhkQmXng

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 8:30:04 AM UTC-4, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
> The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
> http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/articles/1006_spin_recovery.asp

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 5:04:54 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

> You overlooked the sarcastic intent of my earlier post. I'd rather not come right out and say what I really think about the USA approach to Spin and Cloud Flying training (because I'm not a CFI-G or an elite pilot.)

My apologies, I must have had my sarcasm detector off when I read your post ;^]. I'll stand by my recommendation for the BGA's magazine - heads and shoulders better than Soaring!

>
> But I think that the same USA mindset comes into play for both sorts of training. The UK mindset seems starkly different. I take it from Martin's comments that most UK glider pilots are confident about spin recovery and quite a few are confident about cloud flying. If you step outside the ranks of elite USA glider pilots, there are quite a few pilots that are not confident about spin recovery, and emergency cloud flying capability is rare, much rarer than glider pilots flying in wave.

I agree. A classic example in our club: we have a sweet K-13 bought new, that is placarded "Spins Prohibited". It was that way from day one on the FAA's Airworthiness Certificate. On a plane that is considered a good spin trainer by the rest of the civilized world....

However, if a pilot is not confident about spin recovery, or does not REALLY understand the consequences of getting caught IMC without gyro instruments (and training to use them) or terminal velocity dive brakes - ITS ON HIM to get that training! Elitism has nothing to do with it - survival does!

>
> I expect that quite a few glider pilots like me get ****ed off when another pilot enters a spin at a recoverable altitude but dies. If I fly into IMC and die from lacking of training/instruments... I'm going to be really ****ed off.

****ed off? not worth it; too many stupid people doing stupid things to waste energy on being ****ed off. I do enough stupid things myself! Better to learn from their mistakes an avoid the same.

>
> Sure. I can take the initiative to train IFR in a SEL and add instruments to my panel (but I can't practice in 'easy clouds', gain proficiency and stay current). Some individuals will do that. But if I lived in the UK, the training culture would have me ready to fly in clouds by now. The USA safety culture is broken wrt spins and cloud flying (and perhaps other scenarios are treated likewise).

In the UK, the regulatory environment makes it practical for glider to cloud fly. In the US, it really doesn't. Not impossible, just expensive and complicated. So, unless you have the time and money to rig your glider for IMC/IFR flight, and obtain and maintain IFR currency, you really don't have the option to fly in clouds, legally. And if you put yourself in a position where that happens, you are in a full blown emergency and should treat it as such! In the US, you should NEVER intentionally let yourself get in a position where you will get caught in clouds. Period. Under Cu's, it's not a real issue - you can stay clear if you pay attention. In wet wave, better be REAL careful; if you get trapped on top or enveloped in a lennie you might as well call MAYDAY to ATC and prepare for the worst - at least that way someone will know where to start looking for the wreckage!

One final comment about spins - I am convinced that most glider accidents attributed to spins are actually the result of a low speed departure into a spiral dive. At low altitude, the difference can be fatal - the actions for a spin recovery (full rudder against, stick forward) while accelerating in a spiral dive will basically spear you into the ground. Actual, no-**** SPINS have been pretty much designed out of almost all modern gliders except for those designed to teach then (or designed for aerobatics). So perhaps we need to stop worrying about "spin" recovery and emphasize "upset" or "departure from controlled flight" recovery, being able to determine what your glider is doing and respond accordingly.

Might save a few lives that way...

Kirk
66

[waremark]

A key aspect of spin training in the UK is to recognise and differentiate from a spiral dive.

[Nick[_5_]]

Actual, no-**** SPINS have been pretty much designed out of almost all modern gliders

===========

Not the case at all. All modern gliders will spin, and quite readily. Some of the trainers are hard to spin, but it can be done.

[kirk.stant]

On Saturday, April 25, 2015 at 3:08:12 PM UTC-5, Nick wrote:
> Actual, no-**** SPINS have been pretty much designed out of almost all modern gliders
>
> ===========
>
> Not the case at all. All modern gliders will spin, and quite readily. Some of the trainers are hard to spin, but it can be done.

Let's get our definitions straight. All modern gliders will depart controlled flight, and some will stabilize in a steady spin (airspeed not increasing). But many (most?) of the racing gliders will only be in the spin state (one or both wings stalled, with yaw present) for a short period of time, then will transition to a spiral dive, even with full in-spin controls. During the departure and incipient spin phase, the correct recovery procedure is to reduce angle of attack and stop the yaw - then recover from the dive. However, once transitioned to the spiral dive, the angle of attack is no longer the issue - it's the bank angle that is going to kill you, and that has to be reduced, then the angle of attack increased to recover from the dive (the G helps hold down the speed).

Blindly thinking "stall - spin - full rudder, hesitate, forward stick" can be a killer when all is needed is to release aft pressure on the stick to break the departure, or if speed is increasing, rolling to wings level and PULLING on the stick.

I guess my LS6 isn't a modern glider - it will only depart in landing configuration, and then after less than a turn is in a spiral dive. In thermalling flaps, it may drop a wing, but doesn't enter a stabilized rotation. Of course, there are situations where you can force the glider into a fully stalled configuration (unloaded recovery from a winch launch failure, then trying to turn at too low a speed, for example) that may result in a turn or two of a spin as the glider accelerated out of the stall angle of attack. But at least in my LS6, it's a spiral dive that is the problem, NOT a spin.

Kirk
66

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

> I guess my LS6 isn't a modern glider - it will only depart in landing
> configuration, and then after less than a turn is in a spiral dive.

In Chukar's situation - IMC, no useful horizon - both theoretically and in
fact, spiral dive is the killer, alright, pretty much regardless of the glider
one flies. Only a few 'knowledgeably lucky' pilots who retain their wits (e.g.
Kempton Izuno, Bruce Carmichael) won't be needing their parachute Real Soon
Now. Under those conditions, assuming one is in a spiral dive is probably
correct, insofar as trying to initiate 'blind recovery' is concerned...I know
of few gliders that will remain in a spin stably in the absence of continuing
in-spin control (though the 2-32 comes to mind; there may be others but,
arguably, hosing up a stabilized spin recovery in IMC is less likely to
overstress the glider than delaying/hosing up a spiral dive recovery.)

Kinda-sorta related, it's been noted/argued in other threads that fatalities
ensuing from pattern-height departures from controlled flight may in fact be
due to spiral diving into the ground as distinct from spinning into the
ground. My take is - no less so than VFR into IMC - departure from controlled
flight in the landing pattern is Seriously Bad News *regardless* of how long
the initially-dropping wing is stalled. ("Lets see," thinks Joe switched-on
[well except for that inadvertent departure, I mean :)] Glider Pilot, "Should
I initiate a stall recovery, or should I wait 'just long enough for this thing
to go spiral on me' and initiate a spiral dive recovery?")

Kids, be safe out there!

Bob W.

[Mark628CA]

Glad to see that Bob survived, in spite of a lot of factors and circumstances that conspired and accumulated into a very dangerous situation.

As far as spin training, I remember my father (a pilot since 1939 until 1986) grumpily complaining that, once the FAA removed spin training from the pilot training syllabus that it was like saying to a bunch of new naval cadets, "We're not going to teach you how to swim. We are going to teach you how to not fall off the boat."

Since then I have heard that from a number of other sources, including the beloved and eloquent commentator on soaring, the late Gren Siebels. It is still true. I just wish that spin training, and not just recognition/avoidance was more widely available. Personally, I LIKE spins. They are exciting and demonstrate a high descent rate without unduly stressing the airframe. Just make sure you have about twice the altitude you think you need for the recovery.

I watch civilian airshow performers regularly spin, both upright and inverted and it is just amazing to watch. Done correctly, it is just another tool in the box. Upset training, as it is referred to, is a great thing. Let's face it, crap happens, and as a previous post noted, it is because we let it happen. Knowing how to get out of it is a desirable skill.

As far as complaining that the British actually teach cloud flying, so what? If they weren't willing and able to fly in the "fifty shades of grey," they wouldn't get much airtime at all in that soggy, green country. As a friend and mentor (a WW II fighter pilot) once told me, "The Brits are the best pilots in the world. Nobody else can fly in this crap and enjoy it."

[bumper[_4_]]

Probably worth noting some aircraft are placarded "Spins Prohibited" for good reason. During certification spins are approach gingerly, often with a spin chute that can be deployed to recover from the spin if normal spin recovery doesn't work. Some aircraft will exhibit raising of the nose and go into a flat spin several turns after spin entry. Some aircraft will become stable in a flat spin and resist efforts to break the spin and recover.

During my PPL training in my Mooney, I accidentally entered a spin, flipping over the top and pointing straight down. Scared the crud out of me. I quietly asked my instructor if he wouldn't mind taking the plane and saving our lives. He did that. But it took about 3 turns and at least red line pulling out of the dive. He opined afterwards that the nose looked to be rising during the spin - - I'm not sure, I was in the fetal position trying not to get in the way of the rudder pedals.

I told him I was pretty much traumatized and wanted some spin training before flying my Mooney again. He asked me if I wanted to be an instructor. I said I don't think so and he said, okay, then we can't do spin training. I changed my mind about being an instructor and we rented a C152 and went spinning. When you spin with some assurance that you might survive, it's unnerving at first but gets to be fun in short order.

I enjoyed spinning my Starduster biplane and Aeronca Champ - both rated for spins. Wish my current Husky or ASH26E was, but unfortunately neither is and I'm not brave enough to be a test pilot.

Counting on intentionally spinning a "not certified for spinning" aircraft to exit IMC is not a good plan. As some have suggested, benign spiral may work in a ship that will do so in benign conditions - inside convective or wave rotor is anything but benign, so I wouldn't count on that either. Getting some instrument training and a gyro is the best approach IMO.

GPS, even Garmin's "panel page", which normally works fine for gyro back up in power planes, would be a poor choice for primary "simulated" gyro info in a glider flying in the kind of wave conditions we get at Minden.

GPS "panel page" wings level/turn, course and speed info is all based on ground track, and in high winds track can be back asswards or sideways from the direction the glider is pointing. I have an instrument rating, so have at least some clue, but think being blown sideways or backwards would present a GPS display that would be all but unflyable in turbulence, and in smooth air, if flyable at all, would be a high workload for sure.

Flying IMC with no gyros is a great equalizer, instrument trained or no, there's a strong risk you'll get to use your parachute or worse.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 1:34:53 AM UTC-5, bumper wrote:

>
> GPS, even Garmin's "panel page", which normally works fine for gyro back up in power planes, would be a poor choice for primary "simulated" gyro info in a glider flying in the kind of wave conditions we get at Minden.
>
> GPS "panel page" wings level/turn, course and speed info is all based on ground track, and in high winds track can be back asswards or sideways from the direction the glider is pointing. I have an instrument rating, so have at least some clue, but think being blown sideways or backwards would present a GPS display that would be all but unflyable in turbulence, and in smooth air, if flyable at all, would be a high workload for sure.
>

Something of that nature was contributing to what was going on during my brief story about flying by compass, in my first post to the thread "Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters". It wasn't wave, but it was a much slower-flying aircraft than we're generally discussing in this forum, so I became very familiar with the uselessness of a simple GPS-driven "heading" display when windspeed is in the same ballpark as airspeed.

S

[Dan Marotta]

The other day flying near cloud base in rotor conditions I decided to
try an experiment; I looked at a bright spot off my left wingtip,
closed my eyes tightly, and began a left turn intending to roll out on a
heading 90 deg to my left. It was not hard at all! I was very careful
not to apply any pitch controls. So I tried it again, and was again
successful.

Does that mean I could do a blind 180 out of a cloud without basic blind
flying instruments? I wouldn't count on it... In fact, I doubt it
seriously. It's a whole lot different when you choose the experiment
rather than having it thrust upon you.

On 4/26/2015 12:34 AM, bumper wrote:
> Probably worth noting some aircraft are placarded "Spins Prohibited" for good reason. During certification spins are approach gingerly, often with a spin chute that can be deployed to recover from the spin if normal spin recovery doesn't work. Some aircraft will exhibit raising of the nose and go into a flat spin several turns after spin entry. Some aircraft will become stable in a flat spin and resist efforts to break the spin and recover.
>
> During my PPL training in my Mooney, I accidentally entered a spin, flipping over the top and pointing straight down. Scared the crud out of me. I quietly asked my instructor if he wouldn't mind taking the plane and saving our lives. He did that. But it took about 3 turns and at least red line pulling out of the dive. He opined afterwards that the nose looked to be rising during the spin - - I'm not sure, I was in the fetal position trying not to get in the way of the rudder pedals.
>
> I told him I was pretty much traumatized and wanted some spin training before flying my Mooney again. He asked me if I wanted to be an instructor. I said I don't think so and he said, okay, then we can't do spin training. I changed my mind about being an instructor and we rented a C152 and went spinning. When you spin with some assurance that you might survive, it's unnerving at first but gets to be fun in short order.
>
> I enjoyed spinning my Starduster biplane and Aeronca Champ - both rated for spins. Wish my current Husky or ASH26E was, but unfortunately neither is and I'm not brave enough to be a test pilot.
>
> Counting on intentionally spinning a "not certified for spinning" aircraft to exit IMC is not a good plan. As some have suggested, benign spiral may work in a ship that will do so in benign conditions - inside convective or wave rotor is anything but benign, so I wouldn't count on that either. Getting some instrument training and a gyro is the best approach IMO.
>
> GPS, even Garmin's "panel page", which normally works fine for gyro back up in power planes, would be a poor choice for primary "simulated" gyro info in a glider flying in the kind of wave conditions we get at Minden.
>
> GPS "panel page" wings level/turn, course and speed info is all based on ground track, and in high winds track can be back asswards or sideways from the direction the glider is pointing. I have an instrument rating, so have at least some clue, but think being blown sideways or backwards would present a GPS display that would be all but unflyable in turbulence, and in smooth air, if flyable at all, would be a high workload for sure.
>
> Flying IMC with no gyros is a great equalizer, instrument trained or no, there's a strong risk you'll get to use your parachute or worse.
>

--
Dan Marotta

[[email protected]]

I can tell you from experience from my inadvertent IMC, that about 90 seconds in the cloud you cannot tell what the glider is doing, and if I had responded to what I felt I would have tucked in tight and ripped the wings off.

I had practiced the benign spiral (full spoilers, hands and feet off) in my 1-26 and knew if would work from different entry speeds, different banks, ....

I watched the airspeed and the moving map.

At 90 seconds everything in my body told me I had just gone over the top, but the airspeed and the map said otherwise.

Every glider is different and you must practice in your glider and know what it will do or not do.
Some benign spiral well, some spin well, some spin a few spins than go into a spiral dive.

Kevin

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 8:52:42 AM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
> This came from the SoarNV mailing list:
>
> -----
>
> On Easter Sunday, Bob Spielman, known as Chukar, was caught in clouds on a very lively wave day and had to bail out of his wingless glider. He visited us today. He is in good spirits and flying once again. He has his 1-26 and his Sparrow Hawk to keep him in the sky.
>
> This is his first person account of what happened, reprinted here with his permission.
>
> Oh, and we now call him Lucky Chukar.
>
> Here is his account:
>
>
>
> to my friends
> i was going to fly my biggest flight in my ASW 27 today, aiming for 12 hours. i took off at minden at 7:30
> and went north to Stead and turned back for clouds ad flew south to Mammoth and then went north almost to Susanville.
> it was slow and as i was passing over Reno i went between 2 clouds which filled in suddenly. I should have had a neat attitude indicater like Gordo has and i tried to fly my Garmin but it was so rough that things went to hell in a hurry.
> I was IFR at 14000' and i felt a stall and then the airspeed increased fast thru 160k and i heard 2 pops and the canopy broke
> i shortly came out the bottom of the clouds in a spin at maybe 9-10000' and tried to break the spin but it didn't work and i looked and saw the left wing wasn't there so i knew that wouldn't work.
> I unlocked the emerg canopy release, open my harness and went over the side. i saw stuff flying thru the air (2 nanos,handheld radio. lunch etc) and couln't find my ripcord and thought it was gone but looked lower and found it and pulled it and it wasn't a very long ride down and i saw the glider fuselage going down below me.
> i thought i was going to land on the CIRCUS CIRCUS roof but missed it an then i landed on the st mary hospital
> roof but hoped my chute would snag the light pole. i hit the light and the chute snagged it and i ended up 10'
> in the air. a reno cop pushed up on my feet so i could release my chute and slide down the pole.
> HOW LUCKY I WAS.
>
> I didn't go to the hospital but my son and daughter in law doctor told me i had to and they found a broken collar bone
> and my right lung was collapsed so they had that fixed in an hour by 2 doctors who are in our air guard hospital.
>
> i lost my phone so no service.
>
> LUCKY CHUKAR
> that ASW 27 was a beautiful glider.

Without spending a lot of time reviewing threads, did anyone see anything that told how fast Chukar was going when he went into IMC?
Was this "sink into cloud", or full speed ahead, It'll get better?

UH

[Jock Proudfoot]

At 14:23 27 April 2015, wrote:
>Without spending a lot of time reviewing threads, did anyone see anything
hat told how fast Chukar was going when he went into IMC?
>Was this "sink into cloud", or full speed ahead, It'll get better?