Needed: Inexpensive AHRS module to work with Oudie, XCsoar, LK8000, etc...

[kirk.stant]

All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).

I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.

I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.

We already spend a lot for FLARM, to cover a threat that is also relatively remote (mid-air collision). But not all of us want to drop the big bucks (or euros) for a Butterfly or S80 - and the price of stand-alone AHRS modules seems pretty low.

And at the risk of restarting the RAS-war about attitude indicators in contests, well, I think the cat is already out of the bag on that issue - but having the device add an "attitude on" or whatever flag on the logger trace should be sufficient, IMO.

Anyway, just thinking...

And if this already exists - please send me a link!

Kirk
66

[Paul Remde]

Hi Kirk

I'm not aware of any AHRS units in the price range you are looking for. But
here are some options.

http://www.lxnav.com/accessories/ahrs.html - available soon for about $1300.

http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/trutrak.htm - $520 for Pictorial Turn &
Bank - not full AHRS but much better than nothing.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...

All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight
without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit
of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav
display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would
output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which
could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to
provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous
times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when
they want to do it!).

I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a
turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data
that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed,
altitude, basic GPS nav info.

I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable
battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the
attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be
around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to
integrate it.

We already spend a lot for FLARM, to cover a threat that is also relatively
remote (mid-air collision). But not all of us want to drop the big bucks
(or euros) for a Butterfly or S80 - and the price of stand-alone AHRS
modules seems pretty low.

And at the risk of restarting the RAS-war about attitude indicators in
contests, well, I think the cat is already out of the bag on that issue -
but having the device add an "attitude on" or whatever flag on the logger
trace should be sufficient, IMO.

Anyway, just thinking...

And if this already exists - please send me a link!

Kirk
66

[son_of_flubber]

I understand that an AHRS, compared to a Truetrak, is going to produce more consistent results in the hands of a trained and current pilot.

But will the AHRS require more training to use and stay current compared to the Truetrak? And not being a power pilot, I've zero experience with a panel mounted attitude indicator. My tactile attitude indicator is stick position fore-aft.

Seems like (after a few hours of IFR training) I could practice using the Truetrak and ASI in my routine VFR thermaling. And Kirk mentioned the desirability of a large AHRS display... I only have space for a 57mm display in my panel.

Seems like the Truetrak would be the clear best bet for me. The visual simplicity is intuitively appealing. Am I missing something?

I understand that an IFR-rated pilot would want an AHRS in a glider, but that is not me.

[[email protected]]

I have flown with Truetrack.
I don't think there is any way to say that a Truetrack is a more natural...less complex....easier to learn instrument than an AHRS.
An AHRS is an accurate representation of the aircraft's attitude to the horizon. Dead simple graphics.

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 4:44:34 PM UTC-5, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi Kirk
>
> I'm not aware of any AHRS units in the price range you are looking for. But
> here are some options.
>
> http://www.lxnav.com/accessories/ahrs.html - available soon for about $1300.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Integrating those with PDA/tablets can be a challenge, as most hardware can either take a single source or need more complex solutions to integrate multiple sources, especially if you want an instant on solution.
I found space for both PowerFlarm and TruTrak 57mm displays in my panel by getting rid of all redundancies, such as mechanical vario etc, as I found those to be significantly more useful and helpful than many things I find in other panels: multiple varios, compas, g meter etc...

Ramy

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 7:32:13 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I understand that an AHRS, compared to a Truetrak, is going to produce more consistent results in the hands of a trained and current pilot.

Some definitions are in order:

AHRS stands for Attitude Heading Reference System. In the big expensive iron, it's the suite of expensive sensors (gyros, accelerometers, magnetic heading sensor) that provide data to the attitude displays.

Nowadays there are tons of inexpensive solidstate devices that have been developed for cars, RC helos, UAVs etc that can provide basically the same data: real time attitude (pitch, roll, yaw).

Using this data to drive a big, modern attitude display makes flying IMC a LOT easier, as it comes closer to "a window on the real world", instead of a pictorial representation of what your aircraft is doing. Old school instruments such as a turn and bank, turn coordinator, Tru-Track, or even a mechanical attitude indicator are really just mechanical ways to present attitude information, and require lots of training and practice to use safely. A good attitude display, on something like an Oudie or equivalent, would be easier to use, IMO. It would still need training to use, and it's really tough to simulate the feeling of vertigo that can result from flying in real IMC, but it would sure beat not having anything!

>
> But will the AHRS require more training to use and stay current compared to the Truetrak? And not being a power pilot, I've zero experience with a panel mounted attitude indicator. My tactile attitude indicator is stick position fore-aft.

I would say the opposite. A modern glass cockpit attitude indicator is pretty intuitive, while a Trutrak is an old-school instrument. A PC simulator could be used to show how to interpret and use an attitude display - but if you have never flown under the hood or in real IMC that kind of training would be HIGHLY recommended! Vertigo is nothing to be sneezed at!

>
> Seems like (after a few hours of IFR training) I could practice using the Truetrak and ASI in my routine VFR thermaling. And Kirk mentioned the desirability of a large AHRS display... I only have space for a 57mm display in my panel.

Forget the small instrument display - get a cheap PNA and have a big 5 in color display! That's what I want!
>
> Seems like the Truetrak would be the clear best bet for me. The visual simplicity is intuitively appealing. Am I missing something?

Yes. Truetraks are meant to be backup, emergency instruments. My idea is to provide a modern attitude display, available instantly, on our pretty much ubiquitous moving map displays. Trust me, the difference is night and day! Or more likely, life or death!!
>
> I understand that an IFR-rated pilot would want an AHRS in a glider, but that is not me.

Take some time to look at all the latest cockpit display coming out for airplanes - they are all going to big screen attitude displays - for a good reason! As far as cost, solid state AHRS sensors combined with a good display is cheaper and more reliable than ANY hardware attitude indicator, and provides so much more situational and attitude awareness that there is really no comparison. The only thing better is a wide angle HUD, but those get a bit heavy and use a lot of power ;^).

Cheers,

Kirk
66

[Tango Whisky]

ixGyro Pro.
About $70, pluS à Galaxy smartphone (which carries gyros, magnetic & accelerometer).

Bert
TW

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 11:54:29 PM UTC-5, Tango Whisky wrote:
> ixGyro Pro.
> About $70, pluS à Galaxy smartphone (which carries gyros, magnetic & accelerometer).
>
> Bert
> TW

Sure, or Xavion and an iPhone. But it would be nice to integrate something "simple" with the displays that are already in our cockpits, not add another thing to carry. I can just see getting sucked into a cloud and fumbling for my iPhone ;^(

Kirk
66

[Andrew Ainslie]

We're a tiny market. The biggest cost of any device like this is the fixed cost of developing software etc. The massive sales of 100 or so worldwide are unlikely to be a huge investment.

FWIW, there's a very nice device that a lot of power pilots like, the Stratus 2. It ain't $70, and the software is another $75 a year, but anyone who's willing to risk IMC should probably be willing to spend more than $70 anyway.

[[email protected]]

Really??!!!
You enter a cloud and then your are going to fumble for your i-Phone?
Or, you enter a cloud and start losing control of your aircraft...then you are going to be able to control your i-phone with a touchpad while G-forces are tossing you about??
You need to really think about this.

[[email protected]]

I think the OP is on the right track. If you aren't flying with one of those varios-with-extra-bells-and-whistles that turns into an artificial horizon at the flip of a switch, why not have SOMETHING for emergency use in cloud? Especially if you are already flying with a tablet display anyway, for other purposes? In another thread I made one suggestion, but a full-fledged artificial horizon display is a better way to go, so long as it works reliably. Such a display can be displayed on tablet or whatever and driven by a commercially available AHRS sensor unit. Those units are widely available, as a bit a googling will reveal. Here's one link among many: http://www.aviation.levil.com/products.html .

Of course it goes WITHOUT SAYING that your tablet or cell phone or whatever is going to be rigidly mounted in your cockpit. You certainly don't want to be trying to look at a moving object as you try to control your aircraft in cloud. And it also goes without saying that all of this is for emergency use only.

Me personally-- I still like the simple, completely self-contained nature of the piezoelectric turn rate indicator I linked to earlier, at the top of the related thread "Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters". I don't want to worry about all this other stuff. And I've practiced enough to know how to make use of the simpler instrument. And as noted elsewhere, the TruTrac is essentially the same thing, just a better implementation and a lot more bucks. But if you were to hand me a tablet running an artificial horizon display, AHRS system, appropriate mounts, fully charged batteries, etc, all ready go, I'd take them and say "thanks"-- especially if the ground were nowhere to be seen!

S

[Tango Eight]

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Am I missing something?

Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.

The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was astoundingly sudden.

Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement when mother nature treats you roughly.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[[email protected]]

Essentially all we're talking about doing here, is replicating the AHRS-based artificial horizon displays that are currently incorporated into the top-of-the-line variometer sytems.

S

[Dan Marotta]

WOW! Very well said, Evan.

On 4/28/2015 9:09 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> Am I missing something?
> Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.
>
> The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was astoundingly sudden.
>
> Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement when mother nature treats you roughly.
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

--
Dan Marotta

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 4/28/2015 9:52 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> WOW! Very well said, Evan.

+2

Bob W.
- - - - - -
>
> On 4/28/2015 9:09 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
>> On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>> Am I missing something?
>> Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't
>> know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.
>>
>> The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid
>> overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the
>> conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite
>> the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending
>> cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go
>> wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had
>> plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk
>> was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was
>> astoundingly sudden.
>>
>> Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of
>> emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into
>> very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If
>> your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps
>> even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended
>> destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist
>> the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the
>> most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for
>> when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't
>> think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement
>> when mother nature treats you roughly.
>>
>> -Evan Ludeman / T8
>
> -- Dan Marotta

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 10:09:46 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > Am I missing something?
>
> Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.
>
> The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was astoundingly sudden.
>
> Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement when mother nature treats you roughly.
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

Mostly agree. Twisting the dragon's tail (flying too close to cloudbase, in a wet wave with clouds below, etc.) can get you eaten big time.

But so can a really hazy day, when the horizon slowly disappears...sort of a "boiling a frog" scenario.

100%? To me, that would imply never taking off, and just watching cat videos on Youtube...

But yeah, it all boils down to airmanship, knowing your environment, and preparing for what you may encounter.

Kirk
66

[[email protected]]

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).
>
> I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.
>
> I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.
>
> We already spend a lot for FLARM, to cover a threat that is also relatively remote (mid-air collision). But not all of us want to drop the big bucks (or euros) for a Butterfly or S80 - and the price of stand-alone AHRS modules seems pretty low.
>
> And at the risk of restarting the RAS-war about attitude indicators in contests, well, I think the cat is already out of the bag on that issue - but having the device add an "attitude on" or whatever flag on the logger trace should be sufficient, IMO.
>
> Anyway, just thinking...
>
> And if this already exists - please send me a link!
>
> Kirk
> 66



On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).
>
> I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.
>
> I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.
>
> We already spend a lot for FLARM, to cover a threat that is also relatively remote (mid-air collision). But not all of us want to drop the big bucks (or euros) for a Butterfly or S80 - and the price of stand-alone AHRS modules seems pretty low.
>
> And at the risk of restarting the RAS-war about attitude indicators in contests, well, I think the cat is already out of the bag on that issue - but having the device add an "attitude on" or whatever flag on the logger trace should be sufficient, IMO.
>
> Anyway, just thinking...
>
> And if this already exists - please send me a link!
>
> Kirk
> 66



On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).
>
> I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.
>
> I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.
>
> We already spend a lot for FLARM, to cover a threat that is also relatively remote (mid-air collision). But not all of us want to drop the big bucks (or euros) for a Butterfly or S80 - and the price of stand-alone AHRS modules seems pretty low.
>
> And at the risk of restarting the RAS-war about attitude indicators in contests, well, I think the cat is already out of the bag on that issue - but having the device add an "attitude on" or whatever flag on the logger trace should be sufficient, IMO.
>
> Anyway, just thinking...
>
> And if this already exists - please send me a link!
>
> Kirk
> 66
Hi Kirk
Part of the LK8000 software is a page, with artificial horizon, digital values for track, ground speed vario, A/S etc. It is functional on the PNA that I have it installed on, and it is inexpensive.
Rob Frith

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 2:10:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).
> >
> > I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.
> >
> > I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.

[[email protected]]

If you think that a solid state...always on...artificial horizon system is less stable and dependable than a vacuum driven gyro system, or electrically driven gyro system, or mechanical system...we are in different solar systems.

I have flown many artificial horizon systems. The new digital...always on....fully electronic systems are awesome.

Get real. Understand that when you get sucked into the soup that you need accurate information that is instantly understandable, right now.

With the LX Nav S80 system (or Butterfly vario system) you are never more than two button pushes away from an instantly understandable and fully up to speed display that, if you understand it, will save your sorry ass.

Take your alternative systems into a dual aircraft and put some real blinders on and see how you do. You cannot accurately touch virtual buttons on your smartphones while tumbling inside a cloud. You cannot wait for a system to boot from a cold start. Your rational mind will not be working when you try to understand how a compass, ASI, and bubble need to be responded to when you have not practiced this over and over and over.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 8:54:14 PM UTC-7, wrote:

> Take your alternative systems into a dual aircraft and put some real blinders on and see how you do.

Check

>You cannot accurately touch virtual buttons on your smartphones while tumbling inside a cloud.

Check

>You cannot wait for a system to boot from a cold start.

Check

>Your rational mind will not be working when you try to understand how a compass, ASI, and bubble need to be responded to when you have not practiced this over and over and over.

Bubble tells you nothing that yaw string doesn't (unless yaw string is frozen.) These three things are indeed enough under certain very exceptional circumstances (involving smooth air and freedom to choose heading according to what works with the compass, rather than terrain.) In most real-world circumstances you need much more. If wind is in same ballpark as airspeed, that "something else" had better not be a simple GPS-based map display or "heading" indicator or GPS-derived "bank angle" indicator. An ARHS-based artificial horizon display is great, running on vario or on some sort of RELIABLE, hard-mounted tablet etc. I'm having trouble believing the reliability is really there with most cobbled-together systems, but don't know that much about it. I noted another option on related thread "Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters": http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce.com/turn-coordinator-in-enclosure/ . Same basic concept as TruTrac which is another option. Either of these is an instant-on or rapid-on piezoelectric turn rate sensor.

S

[[email protected]]

It's $1,095 instead of the $500 mentioned at the start, but Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html. It's self contained from a company that has specialized in EFIS technology for years, not someone that lately has tried to add the capability to their devices.. It also has Bluetooth out so it can be connect to a phone or ipad app.

I've been using a Dynon D10A for IFR flying in my HP for the last 4 years. It's a full panel mounted EFIS. I've been very happy with it.

Charlie

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 5:32:08 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> It's $1,095 instead of the $500 mentioned at the start, but Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html. It's self contained from a company that has specialized in EFIS technology for years, not someone that lately has tried to add the capability to their devices. It also has Bluetooth out so it can be connect to a phone or ipad app.
>
> I've been using a Dynon D10A for IFR flying in my HP for the last 4 years.. It's a full panel mounted EFIS. I've been very happy with it.
>
> Charlie

Thanks Charlie,
The Dynon seems to be good for much more than once-in-a-blue-moon flight into IMC. I would gladly throw out my altimeter, ASI and compass for this compact device. Can we do that in Experimental certified gliders? All you would need in a modern glider is: EFIS, vario, flight computer, radio, transponder and PFlarm, right? Still a lot of stuff but it's progress.
Herb

[Tango Whisky]

Le mercredi 29 avril 2015 15:41:11 UTC+2, a écrit*:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 5:32:08 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > It's $1,095 instead of the $500 mentioned at the start, but Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html. It's self contained from a company that has specialized in EFIS technology for years, not someone that lately has tried to add the capability to their devices. It also has Bluetooth out so it can be connect to a phone or ipad app..
> >
> > I've been using a Dynon D10A for IFR flying in my HP for the last 4 years. It's a full panel mounted EFIS. I've been very happy with it.
> >
> > Charlie
>
> Thanks Charlie,
> The Dynon seems to be good for much more than once-in-a-blue-moon flight into IMC. I would gladly throw out my altimeter, ASI and compass for this compact device. Can we do that in Experimental certified gliders? All you would need in a modern glider is: EFIS, vario, flight computer, radio, transponder and PFlarm, right? Still a lot of stuff but it's progress.
> Herb

Until the main fuse blows.

Bert
TW

[Dan Marotta]

Check your flight manual for what you need.

I'm not suggesting that electronic instruments would not be acceptable,
just that you must have the specified instruments/functionality. BTW,
none of the items you mentioned are, to my knowledge, required - at
least not in my experimental LAK-17a.

Cheers!

On 4/29/2015 7:41 AM, wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 5:32:08 AM UTC-5, wrote:
>> It's $1,095 instead of the $500 mentioned at the start, but Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html. It's self contained from a company that has specialized in EFIS technology for years, not someone that lately has tried to add the capability to their devices. It also has Bluetooth out so it can be connect to a phone or ipad app.
>>
>> I've been using a Dynon D10A for IFR flying in my HP for the last 4 years. It's a full panel mounted EFIS. I've been very happy with it.
>>
>> Charlie
> Thanks Charlie,
> The Dynon seems to be good for much more than once-in-a-blue-moon flight into IMC. I would gladly throw out my altimeter, ASI and compass for this compact device. Can we do that in Experimental certified gliders? All you would need in a modern glider is: EFIS, vario, flight computer, radio, transponder and PFlarm, right? Still a lot of stuff but it's progress.
> Herb

--
Dan Marotta

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 6:32:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html.

To meet Kirk's request for integration with moving map...
The D2 integrates wirelessly with several 3rd party apps so a programming API exists. Whether Dynon would make the API available to glider App developers (like the XCSoar team) is unknown.

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 10:15:51 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Until the main fuse blows.

The Dynon allows you to tie into the main DC supply, but it also contains an internal battery with 4-6 hours of juice. I suspect that there is a fail over mechanism.

The Stratus2 AHRS https://www.foreflight.com/products/stratus/ requires an 'Ipad' but it also offers Synthetic Vision and ADS weather (not offered on the D2.

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 8:19:03 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

> This is scary to say the least. Even if your unit works most of the time there is always a possibility of a software defect and ultimately freezing of the device. The more I am reading this thread the more I am scared to share airspace with some of you! Who knows what other ideas you might have...
>
> Regards, AK

Andrzej, what specifically do you find scary? Having a backup attitude indicator available for the (hopefully rare) possibility that you find yourself IMC? That is already being incorporated in the new top-of-the line (read: expensive) varios, so why not have the same technology available at an affordable price for all the gliders that already have a big glass display in their cockpit?

As far as reliablity, I would trust any electronic solution more than a mechanical gyro! Especially in a glider, getting banged around while being trailered, etc.

As far as using any turn & bank type of indicator, really? Unless you are instrument rated and/or practice a lot (like the Brits, apparently), I doubt if the average US glider pilot could learn to maintain attitude in a cloud via needle, ball, and airspeed on his first attempt for real! With a big attitude display, I would expect the chances would be a lot higher.

Remember, I'm talking about an EMERGENCY setup here, since for most of us in the US cloud flying is not a practical thing to do. So I don't care if it's not TSO'd. But all the bits and pieces are already out there, it just would be nice if they were combined in a way that would be useful to us.

We wear parachutes that we hope never to use, install flarm to prevent the midair we hope to avoid. I'd like an emergency attitude source to avoid the spiral dive I never plan to get into!

Cheers,

Kirk

(And if you are wondering, yes I do have experience in hard IMC, know what vertigo feels like, and have flown needle-ball-airspeed and glass cockpits, to include HUDs.)

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:48:12 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 6:32:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html.
>
> To meet Kirk's request for integration with moving map...
> The D2 integrates wirelessly with several 3rd party apps so a programming API exists. Whether Dynon would make the API available to glider App developers (like the XCSoar team) is unknown.
>
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 10:15:51 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
> > Until the main fuse blows.
>
> The Dynon allows you to tie into the main DC supply, but it also contains an internal battery with 4-6 hours of juice. I suspect that there is a fail over mechanism.
>
> The Stratus2 AHRS https://www.foreflight.com/products/stratus/ requires an 'Ipad' but it also offers Synthetic Vision and ADS weather (not offered on the D2.

The Dynon is nice (I've flown one in a friends Mooney), but remember that the speed is GPS based; in a wave situation that could get interesting! If I flew wave and wanted a full time AI it would be high on my list. The Stratus is real close, if it was supported in my Oudie2 I would take a real hard look at it!

Kirk

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 1:00:42 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 8:19:03 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
>
> > This is scary to say the least. Even if your unit works most of the time there is always a possibility of a software defect and ultimately freezing of the device. The more I am reading this thread the more I am scared to share airspace with some of you! Who knows what other ideas you might have....
> >
> > Regards, AK
>
> Andrzej, what specifically do you find scary? Having a backup attitude indicator available for the (hopefully rare) possibility that you find yourself IMC? That is already being incorporated in the new top-of-the line (read: expensive) varios, so why not have the same technology available at an affordable price for all the gliders that already have a big glass display in their cockpit?
>
> As far as reliablity, I would trust any electronic solution more than a mechanical gyro! Especially in a glider, getting banged around while being trailered, etc.
>
> As far as using any turn & bank type of indicator, really? Unless you are instrument rated and/or practice a lot (like the Brits, apparently), I doubt if the average US glider pilot could learn to maintain attitude in a cloud via needle, ball, and airspeed on his first attempt for real! With a big attitude display, I would expect the chances would be a lot higher.
>
> Remember, I'm talking about an EMERGENCY setup here, since for most of us in the US cloud flying is not a practical thing to do. So I don't care if it's not TSO'd. But all the bits and pieces are already out there, it just would be nice if they were combined in a way that would be useful to us.
>
> We wear parachutes that we hope never to use, install flarm to prevent the midair we hope to avoid. I'd like an emergency attitude source to avoid the spiral dive I never plan to get into!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kirk
>
> (And if you are wondering, yes I do have experience in hard IMC, know what vertigo feels like, and have flown needle-ball-airspeed and glass cockpits, to include HUDs.)

Kirk, I was lucky enough to receive excellent glider training including aerobatics and flying in clouds (all of it in Europe) and I have no problems with people who want to have good quality AHRS or turn and bank indicator installed in their gliders. Flying gliders in IMC is not easy and having a back up is not going to do any good to anyone without training.

What worries me is that someone suggests using LK8000 as an AHRS device.

Certified solid state AHRS go through comprehensive test scenarios. Modern AHRS is almost all software and as we know software has defects. There is no perfect software. There are just defects that are known and defects that are yet to be discovered.

Some suggestions here are good but some like $100-$200 solid state solution is just not realistic, while the sensors might be cheap a bullet proof software that uses these sensors is not. If I wanted to have a backup I would definitely spend the money on proper solid state AHRS. There are other considerations e.g. icing that can render some AHRS included in glider instruments useless if airspeed indication is lost. With modern slippery gliders flying without ASI due to icing could be all but impossible.

The quote below is from Karl's website. I often think about this quote when flying.

"We do not what we ought;
What we ought not, we do;
And lean upon the thought
That chance will bring us through."
(Matthew Arnold)

I am certainly afraid of people coming out of a cloud through the bottom in an uncontrollable way while I am there just because they ventured into the place they should not have been (as Evan said) encouraged by their great LX8000 AHRS backup.

Please note. LX8000 is great software, but it never was intended to be used as AHRS no even in emergency.

Regards,
AK

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

With all these new devices including the phone apps with glass cockpit, I wonder if the rules committee should just suspend anyone from SSA events for several years if they are cloud flying, instead of making contestants disable the AHRS in their butterfly or LX? Just a thought. I frankly think having a back up in case is a great idea, and I think it is exceptional stupid to intentionally illegally cloud fly in the USA without an IFR clearance. Any accident could seriously undermine all the other glider pilots. Years ago when I regularly flew out of Minden I heard many pilots talking about getting 24,000 feet or so in a thermal. I tried to speak with these pilots and explain the consequences of such mindlessness. All to no avail. I tried to get Larry Sanders to address this issue again to no avail.

[Mike the Strike]

Unfortunately (or fortunately!) clouds don't appear on igc files. It might be tough to discriminate between folks who fly though the wispies near cloud base (that is, most of us!) from those who take a few turns inside a cloud.

Mike

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 12:08:33 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> With all these new devices including the phone apps with glass cockpit, I wonder if the rules committee should just suspend anyone from SSA events for several years if they are cloud flying, instead of making contestants disable the AHRS in their butterfly or LX? Just a thought. I frankly think having a back up in case is a great idea, and I think it is exceptional stupid to intentionally illegally cloud fly in the USA without an IFR clearance. Any accident could seriously undermine all the other glider pilots. Years ago when I regularly flew out of Minden I heard many pilots talking about getting 24,000 feet or so in a thermal. I tried to speak with these pilots and explain the consequences of such mindlessness. All to no avail. I tried to get Larry Sanders to address this issue again to no avail.

It's been discussed within the RC and with a number of CDs. I've personally looked a flight log files and weather data for "suspicious flights". We are talking about a relatively fine line in terms of being able to line up glider altitudes, locations and time off of a flight log versus some sort of estimate of of the cloud base - at the same time and precise location. The cloud data is neither granular enough in terms of height and location nor cut finely enough in terms of time (clouds form and dissipate) to make any definitive determination as to whether a glider was IMC or in violation of FARs for cloud clearance or whatever metric you want to use. The exception might be egregious departures deep into significant clouds that are well established. This is the main scenario for gaining material competitive advantage versus running in and out of the wisps at cloudbase. In any event, if you fly in cloud and you get caught expect furious vengeance and application of penalties from the CD.

I will let the sleeping dog of cockpit video cameras lie.

9B

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 1:42:45 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

> Kirk, I was lucky enough to receive excellent glider training including aerobatics and flying in clouds (all of it in Europe) and I have no problems with people who want to have good quality AHRS or turn and bank indicator installed in their gliders. Flying gliders in IMC is not easy and having a back up is not going to do any good to anyone without training.
>
> What worries me is that someone suggests using LK8000 as an AHRS device.
>
> Certified solid state AHRS go through comprehensive test scenarios. Modern AHRS is almost all software and as we know software has defects. There is no perfect software. There are just defects that are known and defects that are yet to be discovered.
>
> Some suggestions here are good but some like $100-$200 solid state solution is just not realistic, while the sensors might be cheap a bullet proof software that uses these sensors is not. If I wanted to have a backup I would definitely spend the money on proper solid state AHRS. There are other considerations e.g. icing that can render some AHRS included in glider instruments useless if airspeed indication is lost. With modern slippery gliders flying without ASI due to icing could be all but impossible.
>
> The quote below is from Karl's website. I often think about this quote when flying.
>
> "We do not what we ought;
> What we ought not, we do;
> And lean upon the thought
> That chance will bring us through."
> (Matthew Arnold)
>
> I am certainly afraid of people coming out of a cloud through the bottom in an uncontrollable way while I am there just because they ventured into the place they should not have been (as Evan said) encouraged by their great LX8000 AHRS backup.
>
> Please note. LX8000 is great software, but it never was intended to be used as AHRS no even in emergency.
>
> Regards,
> AK

AK, I totally agree about a GPS-based solution like LK8000. And also agree that in order to legally (and safely) fly in clouds, a glider needs to be equipped with approved instruments - and the pilot properly trained to use them.

And I also do not intentionally put myself into an IMC situation with my (no-gyro)LS6 because I have a healthy respect for what would happen if I lost a horizon reference!

BUT - If there was an inexpensive "toy" that could possibly save my life, would I get it? Why not? I don't plan on using it (might be fun to play with on a boring VFR day) but if, for some unknown (and probably stupid) reason, I suddenly REALLY NEEDED IT, then it might just save my glider (or even my life). If it doesn't work, I'm no worse off and will probably end up using the chute. But if it does work....

Anyway, at the rate these things are going, something like a Dynon will probably be available at a reasonable cost pretty soon...

Cheers,

Kirk

[Dan Marotta]

Keep your airspeed indicator and altimeter and replace your mechanical
variometer with the Dynon D2. Problem solved!

On 4/29/2015 11:06 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:48:12 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 6:32:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>>> Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html.
>> To meet Kirk's request for integration with moving map...
>> The D2 integrates wirelessly with several 3rd party apps so a programming API exists. Whether Dynon would make the API available to glider App developers (like the XCSoar team) is unknown.
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 10:15:51 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
>>> Until the main fuse blows.
>> The Dynon allows you to tie into the main DC supply, but it also contains an internal battery with 4-6 hours of juice. I suspect that there is a fail over mechanism.
>>
>> The Stratus2 AHRS https://www.foreflight.com/products/stratus/ requires an 'Ipad' but it also offers Synthetic Vision and ADS weather (not offered on the D2.
> The Dynon is nice (I've flown one in a friends Mooney), but remember that the speed is GPS based; in a wave situation that could get interesting! If I flew wave and wanted a full time AI it would be high on my list. The Stratus is real close, if it was supported in my Oudie2 I would take a real hard look at it!
>
> Kirk

--
Dan Marotta

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Keep your airspeed indicator and altimeter and replace your
> mechanical variometer with the Dynon D2.* Problem solved!

Dan, I haven't had a mechanical vario in my cockpit for 14 years!

And getting stuck in a lennie is not a big problem out here in the midwest! So I'll just continue to comply with the FARs and wait for something I can afford.

Kirk
66