Towpilots ignoring turn signals

[Bob Pasker]

So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.

Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.

--bob

[[email protected]]

The turn signal starts when the towpilot runs out of rudder, or his leg gets tired.


Todd Smith
3S

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 12:53:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> The turn signal starts when the towpilot runs out of rudder, or his leg gets tired.
>
>
> Todd Smith
> 3S

I assume no radio in the tow plane? If so, this would be my main concern.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 1:51:55 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
> So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.
>
> Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it.. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.
>
> --bob

What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
UH

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
> So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.
>
> Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it.. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.
>
> --bob

A plane's width? Not nearly enough! Seriously, you need to get WAY out there,smoothly, and stay there until the tow pilot notices the yaw and lets you drag his tail around - which he will to by simply taking his feet off the rudder pedals. But a radio is really better....

But it's always a good idea to talk to your tow pilot after a tow where anything goes out of the ordinary. Better yet, brief him before the tow, and practice some signals in both direction, including slowly deploying your spoilers (looking for the rudder waggle) and ending with a simulated engine power loss and rock-off at release altitude; makes the tow more interesting for both parties.

Kirk
66

[Dave Springford]

As a towpilot, if you get far enough out of position to "steer" me and I run out of leg, expect to see my end of the tow rope coming back at you.

Attempting to steer the towplane by pulling his tail around is just dumb.

[6PK]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 2:48:39 PM UTC-7, Dave Springford wrote:
> As a towpilot, if you get far enough out of position to "steer" me and I run out of leg, expect to see my end of the tow rope coming back at you.
>
> Attempting to steer the towplane by pulling his tail around is just dumb.

I had inexperienced tow pilots wanting take me for a joy ride more than once on my nickel.
Signals on tow weather by steering or radio is standard practice that all should be familiar with prior to flying a glider or tow plane.
6PK

[Dan Marotta]

Steering turns are standard practice. When I'm on tow, and want to turn
(or not!), I try the radio first. If the tuggie doesn't do as I ask, I
try steering him. If that doesn't work, I just go where he takes me and
I'll talk to him after landing. When I'm flying the tug, I'll turn as
the glider pilot asks, even if I know there's something better elsewhere.

On 4/29/2015 3:48 PM, Dave Springford wrote:
> As a towpilot, if you get far enough out of position to "steer" me and I run out of leg, expect to see my end of the tow rope coming back at you.
>
> Attempting to steer the towplane by pulling his tail around is just dumb.

--
Dan Marotta

[Bob Pasker]

oh, there's a radio in the tow plane and I had my portable. they ignored me on departure, and never made any radio calls, so I didn't even bother.

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:11:58 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 12:53:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > The turn signal starts when the towpilot runs out of rudder, or his leg gets tired.
> >
> >
> > Todd Smith
> > 3S
>
> I assume no radio in the tow plane? If so, this would be my main concern.
>
> Ramy

[Bob Pasker]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
> UH

that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

[Bob Pasker]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 5:05:07 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
> A plane's width? Not nearly enough!

i've never had to go further out than wingtip-to-wingtip to steer the tow pilot.

it was obvious that he didn't care a whit anyway, and Dan is right, he probably would have gut me loose if I'da drug his tail around.

[6PK]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 6:33:24 PM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
> > UH
>
> that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

snip "What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot"
I'll argue with that; yes a good local tow pilot, particularly also a glider pilot, will take you to the house thermal but often times, I will emphasize some operations, will hire non glider rated tow pilots who although maybe qualified sticks, will have no real idea what the glider on the other end of the rope is looking for.
The FAR's are clear on signals and communications and there is no rime or reason why one can't have prior or inflight communications as to where one wishes to go and how one would like to spend his or her money.
I for one prefer signals on tow, as long as both the tow pilot ( and myself included ) have a clear understanding as to what they are. It is far too easy to not hear clearly, misunderstand muffled radio transmissions, he said, she said etc.
Just my opinion.
6PK

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

Regarding Aerotow Signals and Currency. Let's look up the "Towpilot Reg's." FAR 61.69(a)(3) and 91.309(a)(5) and find references that suggest that the tow pilot know the standard signals and review these signals on the mandatory towplane ground and flight instruction AND the mandatory glider ground instruction and dual flight instruction in a glider that a tow pilot must receive for their initial endorsement to tow gliders. Then every 24 months that tow pilot must meet and log the specific recurrency requirements of FAR 61.69(a)(6) before towing a glider.

Towpilots who did not receive glider training as part of their initial tow endorsement and /or do not meet the 24 month recurrency requirements might be in violation of the FAR's although not meeting the recurrency requirements of FAR 61.69 may be more of an issue with insurance adjusters after damage to the tow plane or other property if you have a loss and file a claim. (If people are injured you may be dealing with lawyers asking why you were not current in towing gliders.)

Towpilots who are not glider-rated and "building time" should take note of the recurrency requirements of FAR 61.69, specifically the "while accompanied by" statement.

FAR 91.309(a)(5) requires that both the tow pilot and the glider pilot discuss airspeeds, signals and more before each aerotow launch. Not convenient as written especially for a busy launch operation. How you decide to meet this requirement is up to you. A morning meeting to discuss towing procedures and signals for the operations? Perhaps, but I am not aware of any waiver or exemption from the FAA excusing this discussion, as inconvenient as it may be before each launch. You decide.

For the glider pilots, knowledge of the procedures was required before solo for your aerotow launch endorsement (FAR 61.31(j)(1) and for the Practical Test ("checkride") for your glider pilot rating(s). A review of the SSA Standard Signals would be a good practice to log on your "spring checkout", tow pilot recurrency flights or during your Flight Review as required by FAR 61.56. Check your pilot logbook to see if you are properly endorsed for glider aerotow launch and / or meet the FAR 61.69 requirements for towing gliders.

Finally, it is easy to default to the radio only as the only means of communication but you may not know if your transmission is clearly received, or "stepped on". So simultaneously use the radio AND the SSA standard signals to convey your message. It's that easy.

No, I do not know these FAR's off the top of my head. I simply look them up before submitting a post to a newsgroup or forum. If you enjoy looking for "loopholes" and exceptions have at it. I'm just passing along the references.

A free DVD of the SSA Standard Signals is available by request from the Soaring Safety Foundation (SSF) at www.soaringsafety.org (A copy of this DVD was sent to every US club and commercial operation a few years ago.)

Additional reading for towpilot training and 24 month recurrency: The "Towpilot Manual" published by Bob Wander at www.bobwander.com

Burt Compton, CFI (glider and airplane) / FAA Designated Pilot Examiner
. . . towed and towing since 1968.
Marfa, Texas, USA

[Bill T]

Tow pilots need to pay more attention to the glider behind them. If the glider is far enough to one side that you can't hold heading, then relax the rudder and let him guide you. He'll center up when the tow gets to the desired heading.

We train tow pilots, and we train steering turns to our students.
Steering turns are not used much, radio first, but if the radio is busy.

We have a lot of student training. If the student can't stay centered on tow he does not solo. Our experienced tow pilots will speak up if a rated pilot or student is unstable on tow.

I and many tow pilots are not one to just "feed the glider the rope" unless there is a possible upset of the tow plane.

A tow pilot that does not get 3 flights in 24 months as PIC in a glider in tow is required to make 3 tows or simulated tows with another qualified tow pilot. (61.69 (6))
All pilots, tow pilots and glider pilots should review and practice steering turns during their Flight Review.

BillT

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 04:47 30 April 2015, Bill T wrote:
>Tow pilots need to pay more attention to the glider behind them. If the
>glider is far enough to one side that you can't hold heading, then relax
>the rudder and let him guide you. He'll center up when the tow gets to
the
>desired heading.
>
>We train tow pilots, and we train steering turns to our students.
>Steering turns are not used much, radio first, but if the radio is busy.
>
>We have a lot of student training. If the student can't stay centered on
>tow he does not solo. Our experienced tow pilots will speak up if a rated
>pilot or student is unstable on tow.
>
>I and many tow pilots are not one to just "feed the glider the rope"
unless
>there is a possible upset of the tow plane.
>
>A tow pilot that does not get 3 flights in 24 months as PIC in a glider
in
>tow is required to make 3 tows or simulated tows with another qualified
tow
>pilot. (61.69 (6))
>All pilots, tow pilots and glider pilots should review and practice
>steering turns during their Flight Review.
>
>BillT

If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have one
expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying out to
the side, seriously?

[Tango Whisky]

Le jeudi 30 avril 2015 11:00:06 UTC+2, Don Johnstone a écrit*:
> If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have one
> expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying out to
> the side, seriously?

Probably the same people that use bush drums instead of telephones ?
Seriously, in the last 35 years, I haven't had a single tow without radio contact to the tug.

[Gav Goudie[_2_]]

A dated concept with consequences as deadly as a vertical upset.

See Section 42 of the BGA Aerotowing Guidance Notes (LATERAL
TUG UPSETS):

https://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/clubmanagement/documents/aer
otownotes.pdf

"Once again, radio communications between the glider and tug
combination might make the signal unnecessary"

Or adequate training of tug pilots to take the customer to an
appropriate piece of sky...

GG

At 08:56 30 April 2015, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 04:47 30 April 2015, Bill T wrote:
>>Tow pilots need to pay more attention to the glider behind them.
If the
>>glider is far enough to one side that you can't hold heading, then
relax
>>the rudder and let him guide you. He'll center up when the tow
gets t
>the
>>desired heading.
>>
>>We train tow pilots, and we train steering turns to our students.
>>Steering turns are not used much, radio first, but if the radio is
busy.
>>
>>We have a lot of student training. If the student can't stay
centered on
>>tow he does not solo. Our experienced tow pilots will speak up if
a rated
>>pilot or student is unstable on tow.
>>
>>I and many tow pilots are not one to just "feed the glider the
rope
>unless
>>there is a possible upset of the tow plane.
>>
>>A tow pilot that does not get 3 flights in 24 months as PIC in a
glide
>in
>>tow is required to make 3 tows or simulated tows with another
qualifie
>tow
>>pilot. (61.69 (6))
>>All pilots, tow pilots and glider pilots should review and practice
>>steering turns during their Flight Review.
>>
>>BillT
>
>If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have on
>expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying
out t
>the side, seriously?
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:33:24 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
> > UH
>
> that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

A 35 year tow pilot just did.
When waiting for your launch, watch where the tows are going. More often than not the tow pilot will be trying to take you to known lift. When I'm towing during soaring conditions, I'll go to where I put the last guy in lift until it cycles. Very commonly we'll get 2-3(twice that with 2 tugs) in the same thermal before needing to locate the next thermal which likely is relatively nearby.
If you've seen where the other gliders are climbing, hopefully he or she goes to the same place. If not, you know where to go.
I agree that radios are far preferable to tail yanking. We get enough tail yanking when students are learning wake boxing skills.
UH

[Bob Pasker]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:17:48 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:33:24 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
> > > UH
> >
> > that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it
>
> A 35 year tow pilot just did.
> When waiting for your launch, watch where the tows are going. More often than not the tow pilot will be trying to take you to known lift. When I'm towing during soaring conditions, I'll go to where I put the last guy in lift until it cycles. Very commonly we'll get 2-3(twice that with 2 tugs) in the same thermal before needing to locate the next thermal which likely is relatively nearby.
> If you've seen where the other gliders are climbing, hopefully he or she goes to the same place. If not, you know where to go.
> I agree that radios are far preferable to tail yanking. We get enough tail yanking when students are learning wake boxing skills.
> UH

well, I'll send you to the gliderport, and you teach them how a real towpilot works!

[Bob Pasker]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:17:48 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:33:24 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
> > > UH
> >
> > that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it
>
> A 35 year tow pilot just did.
> When waiting for your launch, watch where the tows are going. More often than not the tow pilot will be trying to take you to known lift. When I'm towing during soaring conditions, I'll go to where I put the last guy in lift until it cycles. Very commonly we'll get 2-3(twice that with 2 tugs) in the same thermal before needing to locate the next thermal which likely is relatively nearby.
> If you've seen where the other gliders are climbing, hopefully he or she goes to the same place. If not, you know where to go.
> I agree that radios are far preferable to tail yanking. We get enough tail yanking when students are learning wake boxing skills.
> UH

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said he ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow, not because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have been a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

>ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
>h=
>e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
>no=
>t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
>bee=
>n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>
>> ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
>> h=
>> e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
>> no=
>> t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
>> bee=
>> n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.
>
> OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
> glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
> idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
> I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
> The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
> position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
> have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
> go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
> is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
> essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
> If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
> limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.
>

Wow! Is is still winter in the northern hemisphere? How about the concept of,
"When in Rome, do as the Romans."?

Just to keep the waters churned, I submit that for an individual pilot to
begin arbitrarily making "anti-Roman" decisions is arguably crazier than
intelligently applying the "When in Rome..." philosophy.

I'll go back and hibernate, now.

Bob W.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:30:05 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>
> >ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
> >h=
> >e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
> >no=
> >t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
> >bee=
> >n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.
>
> OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
> glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
> idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
> I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
> The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
> position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
> have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
> go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
> is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
> essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
> If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
> limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

I'm not sure what planet you have been gliding on, but use of steering signals has been taught and used for decades, especially when radios in tugs were rare.
There is nothing fundementally dangerous about the technique when properly done.
The wake boxing skill set required in US training and licensing requires mastery and demonstration of the safe skills needed.
It ain't crazy.
UH

[son_of_flubber]

I'm flabbergasted that USA glider pilots steer the tug with the tow rope and that UK pilots don't. It's understandable that tug pilots compensate with rudder input for yaw induced by a lateral pull.

http://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 5:45:05 AM UTC-4, Gav Goudie wrote:

> See Section 42 of the BGA Aerotowing Guidance Notes (LATERAL
> TUG UPSETS):
>
> https://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/clubmanagement/documents/aer
> otownotes.pdf

I've also been taught to position the glider slightly left of the Pawnee's rudder when climbing. That way the tug can keep a neutral rudder (sparing the tug pilot's legs). Does anyone see a problem with that practice?

[Bob Pasker]

might I draw your attention to this diagram in the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook of aerotow visual signals?

http://funkyimg.com/i/WrPp.png

as well as to Task C, number 5 of the Commercial Glider PTS (which refers to the above manual):

C. TASK: AEROTOW - MAINTAINING TOW POSITIONS
REFERENCE: FAA-H-8083-13.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
5. Uses aerotow visual signals as appropriate and as directed
by the examiner.


On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:30:05 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>
> >ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
> >h=
> >e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
> >no=
> >t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
> >bee=
> >n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.
>
> OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
> glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
> idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
> I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
> The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
> position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
> have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
> go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
> is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
> essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
> If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
> limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-4, wrote:

> There is nothing fundamentally dangerous about the technique when properly done.


The BGA reference (page 30) says that pulling the tug laterally has the potential to abruptly stall the vertical stabilizer of the tug, inducing a flick roll of the tug and a possible midair collision. It goes on to say "The highest risk of a lateral upset is during the
'glider cannot release' signal demonstration".


> See Section 42 of the BGA Aerotowing Guidance Notes (LATERAL
> TUG UPSETS):
>
> https://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/clubmanagement/documents/aer
> otownotes.pdf

[6PK]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 6:30:05 AM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>
> >ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
> >h=
> >e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
> >no=
> >t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
> >bee=
> >n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.
>
> OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
> glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
> idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
> I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
> The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
> position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
> have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
> go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
> is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
> essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
> If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
> limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

Wow! You need to read Burt Compton's previous comments.
I guess most of us are "just plain crazy and complete idiots" but than of course we do follow the SSA's long standing standard signals on tow.
As far as I can remember properly trained, no one ever got hurt doing steering turns or boxing the wake (or similar out of position and recover maneuvers) around this hemisphere although I'm sure it can be done. But than one can misunderstand radio communications just as equally if not easier .
6PK

[Tango Whisky]

Le jeudi 30 avril 2015 16:33:36 UTC+2, Bob Pasker a écrit*:
> might I draw your attention to this diagram in the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook of aerotow visual signals?
>
> http://funkyimg.com/i/WrPp.png
>

When I compare the signals on tow in your link to the signals on tow in the link of son_of_flubber (which indicates just the opposite), I think that the invention of the radio was a rather good thing.

[Tango Eight]

WTF is wrong with the soaring community that we apparently cannot have a civilized discussion about this? There's some attitude on display here that's disturbing.

It's perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering information to a tow plane through positioning, without causing any sort of divergent situation. There is no significant danger of flick rolls (at least with a 200' rope and any tow plane in my experience), that's just someone's imagination running wild.

*MY* reservation about the practice of glider induced steering is that it's the tow pilot's job to clear the airspace and the glider pilot -- having the additional task of formation flying -- isn't as well positioned for ensuring separation from other traffic. So I agree that a better practice is a) plan ahead of time and/or b) use the radio.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Dan Marotta]

Different Dan - not me! I'll take the glider anywhere he wants to go
and be relieved of any responsibility for him getting off in a poor
location.

Most glider pilots know that the local tow pilot knows where the house
thermals are. He's also just landed from several tows and knows the
current conditions. I really hate it when a glider pilot complains that
I "dropped him off in sink". It is he, not I who pulled the release!

Getting off track...

On 4/29/2015 7:34 PM, Bob Pasker wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 5:05:07 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
>> A plane's width? Not nearly enough!
> i've never had to go further out than wingtip-to-wingtip to steer the tow pilot.
>
> it was obvious that he didn't care a whit anyway, and Dan is right, he probably would have gut me loose if I'da drug his tail around.

--
Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

Don,

This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots. In the US, steering the
tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training. It is not
dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.

In the US, my experience regarding ground launch has typically been that
most folks consider it dangerous. I find it quite enjoyable and cost
effective compared to air tow.

I understand that, in Australia, it is MANDATORY to fly in high tow
position. That makes me very uncomfortable when I'm flying the tug.

In Britain, they do a lot of cloud flying. You've already read in
recent threads that US pilots (me excluded) think that's crazy and
dangerous.

So I ask you: What's dangerous? Is it what you think is dangerous
based upon your experience and under common practices where you fly, or
is it what is out of the ordinary for the region in question? I think
the latter choice is more appropriate.

On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>
>> ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
>> h=
>> e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
>> no=
>> t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
>> bee=
>> n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.
> OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
> glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
> idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
> I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
> The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
> position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
> have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
> go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
> is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
> essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
> If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
> limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.
>

--
Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

Ouch! They've got the signals for steering the tug backwards in that image!

On 4/30/2015 8:33 AM, Bob Pasker wrote:
> might I draw your attention to this diagram in the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook of aerotow visual signals?
>
> http://funkyimg.com/i/WrPp.png
>
> as well as to Task C, number 5 of the Commercial Glider PTS (which refers to the above manual):
>
> C. TASK: AEROTOW - MAINTAINING TOW POSITIONS
> REFERENCE: FAA-H-8083-13.
> Objective. To determine that the applicant:
> 5. Uses aerotow visual signals as appropriate and as directed
> by the examiner.
>
>
> On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:30:05 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
>> At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>>
>>> ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
>>> h=
>>> e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
>>> no=
>>> t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
>>> bee=
>>> n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.
>> OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
>> glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
>> idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
>> I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
>> The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
>> position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
>> have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
>> go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
>> is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
>> essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
>> If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
>> limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

--
Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

If I understand the difference in idiom, the British term "flick roll"
is equivalent to the US term "snap roll". If that's correct, stalling
the vertical fin will not cause a snap roll which is a spin in the
horizontal plane. And, as we all know, a spin requires a stall with
yaw. In the case of a snap roll, it is an accelerated stall and I don't
see any change in AoA of the wing to cause that stall. But then I'm
just a poor victim if US military flight training... Or I could be
wrong on the term "flick roll". Or the BGA manual could be (horrors) wrong!

On 4/30/2015 8:33 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>
>> There is nothing fundamentally dangerous about the technique when properly done.
>
> The BGA reference (page 30) says that pulling the tug laterally has the potential to abruptly stall the vertical stabilizer of the tug, inducing a flick roll of the tug and a possible midair collision. It goes on to say "The highest risk of a lateral upset is during the
> 'glider cannot release' signal demonstration".
>
>
>> See Section 42 of the BGA Aerotowing Guidance Notes (LATERAL
>> TUG UPSETS):
>>
>> https://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/clubmanagement/documents/aer
>> otownotes.pdf

--
Dan Marotta

[Bob Pasker]

so they do!

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 11:17:58 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Ouch!* They've got the signals for steering the tug backwards in
> that image!

[Ramy[_2_]]

Geez Don, demonstrating ignorance of standard tow signals while calling everyone who use them idiots? Not smart.

Ramy

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:49:12 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Le jeudi 30 avril 2015 16:33:36 UTC+2, Bob Pasker a écrit*:
> > might I draw your attention to this diagram in the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook of aerotow visual signals?
> >
> > http://funkyimg.com/i/WrPp.png
> >
>
> When I compare the signals on tow in your link to the signals on tow in the link of son_of_flubber (which indicates just the opposite), I think that the invention of the radio was a rather good thing.

This http://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html follows the dictum "Pull the tug's tail and point him in the direction that you want to go."

[[email protected]]

"Only a complete idiot would attempt steering turns"
I am really biting my tongue to now respond with an equally poor rant.

Steering turns were part of my initial glider training at Minden and have been part of my biannual flight reviews on and off for over twenty years at several different soaring sites. I just completed a flight review at Williams Soaring Center and steering turns were part of the review. I actually was directed to make the tow plane make a 180 degree turn using steering turns.

No wonder persons of authority that have to deal with the public tend to drink heavily after a day of work. People are sooooo special.

[[email protected]]

Eek! Too true! Well, at least they fixed the "wench launch"
chapter...

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:22:16 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> If I understand the difference in idiom, the British term "flick
> roll" is equivalent to the US term "snap roll".* If that's correct,
> stalling the vertical fin will not cause a snap roll which is a spin
> in the horizontal plane.* And, as we all know, a spin requires a
> stall with yaw.* In the case of a snap roll, it is an accelerated
> stall and I don't see any change in AoA of the wing to cause that
> stall.* But then I'm just a poor victim if US military flight
> training...* Or I could be wrong on the term "flick roll".* Or the
> BGA manual could be (horrors) wrong!

Dan, I remember reading the BGA article and I think they were referring to what the towplane did when the vertical stabilizer stalled (due to the yaw from a glider WAY out to the side). The sudden loss of all yaw stability results in the tug suddenly yawing away from the glider, and the roll due to the sudden yaw results in a pretty impressive roll. Perhaps not a classic "snap roll" but interesting nevertheless!

So many interesting things going on in this thread! For the original poster: Bob, it sounds like you have a tow pilot who needs some "counseling" on his responsibility as a tuggie. If it's a commercial operation, talk to the chief towpilot or the owner, and worse case take you business somewhere else. In a club situation, that tow pilot should be retrained, and if he continues to ignore the standards, asked to leave (it doesn't sound like he's a glider pilot).

For Dave Springford and Don Johnstone (assuming you fly in Britain), are you saying that steering turns are not done there? What if the towplane is taking you downwind over unlandable terrain, and your radio doesn't work? You would just sit there? As far as steering turns being dangerous - how so? Unless you are deliberately holding off the yaw due to the glider moving off to the side (as in boxing the wake, which should be prebriefed prior to the launch), a smart tow pilot will just let the glider gently pull him in the direction he wants to go. And you have to move out pretty far before you significantly change the flightpath of the towplane. So, a competent glider pilot will stay behind the towplane, a competent tuggie will be clearing the flight path, and working as a team, they will proceed the the optimum release point, using whatever works best (radio or signals). Where a radio is really nice is the rare situation where the glider is trying to force the tug to go somewhere he really doesn't want (like a cloud, or other traffic). Without a radio, you pretty much are stuck with standing on the rudder and the glider should realize that you are intentionally refusing to turn. But the glider should never go so far out to the side that he risks stalling the tug tail (which is really far out!). So, nothing crazy at all about it..

By the way - the military uses visual signals all the time in high speed jets, despite all sorts of fancy radios. Why talk when you can do it silently....

Finally, Dan, I know that guy! He's the glider pilot who gets pulled through a boomer multiple times, underneath a climbing gaggle, and refuses to get off until 3000'agl, which is of course when you are in the sink from that boomer! Those glider guys, they are such a hoot!

Kirk
66
(Flies on both ends of the string)

[Gav Goudie[_2_]]

With their permission I will gladly give you the contact details of at
least 2
tow pilots who have experienced just such a thing (unless it was their
imagination of course...)

GG

At 14:55 30 April 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
<SNIP>It's perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering information
to a
>=
>tow plane through positioning, without causing any sort of divergent
>situat=
>ion. There is no significant danger of flick rolls (at least with a 200'
>r=
>ope and any tow plane in my experience), that's just someone's
imagination
>=
>running wild.
>

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-5, Gav Goudie wrote:
> With their permission I will gladly give you the contact details of at
> least 2
> tow pilots who have experienced just such a thing (unless it was their
> imagination of course...)

I would love to hear the details: Where, what type of towplane, what kind of glider, how long was the towrope, what was the glider doing, pilot experience, result of the upset.

I've been towing on and off for 30 years, in everything from C-172s to Pawnees via Supercubs and have never been near a horizontal upset. Now, having my tail lifted by a glider kiting prior to release, that I've seen ;^)

Cheers,

Kirk

[ND]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 5:00:06 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 04:47 30 April 2015, Bill T wrote:
> >Tow pilots need to pay more attention to the glider behind them. If the
> >glider is far enough to one side that you can't hold heading, then relax
> >the rudder and let him guide you. He'll center up when the tow gets to
> the
> >desired heading.
> >
> >We train tow pilots, and we train steering turns to our students.
> >Steering turns are not used much, radio first, but if the radio is busy.
> >
> >We have a lot of student training. If the student can't stay centered on
> >tow he does not solo. Our experienced tow pilots will speak up if a rated
> >pilot or student is unstable on tow.
> >
> >I and many tow pilots are not one to just "feed the glider the rope"
> unless
> >there is a possible upset of the tow plane.
> >
> >A tow pilot that does not get 3 flights in 24 months as PIC in a glider
> in
> >tow is required to make 3 tows or simulated tows with another qualified
> tow
> >pilot. (61.69 (6))
> >All pilots, tow pilots and glider pilots should review and practice
> >steering turns during their Flight Review.
> >
> >BillT
>
> If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have one
> expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying out to
> the side, seriously?

read section in US Glider flying Handbook. it's more common than your post would suggest.

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 18:11 30 April 2015, Gav Goudie wrote:
>With their permission I will gladly give you the contact details of a
>least 2
>tow pilots who have experienced just such a thing (unless it was their
>imagination of course...)
>
>GG
>
>At 14:55 30 April 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
>It's perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering informatio
>to a
>>=
>>tow plane through positioning, without causing any sort of divergent
>>situat=
>>ion. There is no significant danger of flick rolls (at least with a
200'
>>r=
>>ope and any tow plane in my experience), that's just someone'
>imagination
>>=
>>running wild.
>>
>
Ok, I do fly in the UK. In 50 years of gliding this is the first I have
heard of this "technique". It is certainly never taught and as far as I am
aware, never ever condoned. I can say that if a pilot on my club tried it
he would receive counselling and told never to do it ever again. Tug upsets
are thankfully rare in the UK and I am beginning to understand why they are
not so rare elsewhere. Attempting to control an aircraft from outside,
against the will of the pilot is nothing short of crazy but each to his own
I suppose.
In answer to the question, if the tug is going somewhere I am not happy to
go I would seize the yellow knob and pull. It may well be that after we
both landed a discussion takes place but that is where such problems should
be sorted, on the ground. Bit of a moot point as where I fly both tugs and
gliders have radio and in my particular situation if the radio is U/s the
aircraft is U/s.
Just because a procedure is sanctioned by an organisation does not make it
safe, it can just mean that enough crazy people have decided to do it.
Of course it is perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering
information to a tow plane, being possible does not make it wise or safe.
On cloud flying I would tend to agree with you, but in that case you are
only putting at risk yourself and perhaps anyone else who chooses to be in
the same cloud, and that is not going to be me in any event.
A very good mate of mine told me very early on in my gliding career that
the biggest danger a tug pilot faced was the glider pilot flying behind
him. He was right and proved it in the saddest way possible. Being out of
position puts the tug pilot at risk, the glider pilot almost always gets
away with it.

[Walt Connelly]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.

Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it.. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.

--bob

A plane's width? Not nearly enough! Seriously, you need to get WAY out there,smoothly, and stay there until the tow pilot notices the yaw and lets you drag his tail around - which he will to by simply taking his feet off the rudder pedals. But a radio is really better....

But it's always a good idea to talk to your tow pilot after a tow where anything goes out of the ordinary. Better yet, brief him before the tow, and practice some signals in both direction, including slowly deploying your spoilers (looking for the rudder waggle) and ending with a simulated engine power loss and rock-off at release altitude; makes the tow more interesting for both parties.

Kirk
66

Spot on in everything you have said in this post.....as a tow pilot with over 1200 tows in the last 6 months I have seen every thing imaginable in back of me...As a glider pilot I know every house thermal locally and try to take new, non local pilots to the best lift. I also try to take them to thermals being worked by other glider pilots but I will not take you completely into that thermal, just close enough to join. Some show up with hand held radios with weak batteries incapable of contacting the tow plane 200 feet ahead. I'm fine with a tail tug but as pointed out, it must be smooth and adequate enough to be recognized, when I'm standing on the rudder I will get the message, just don't do it too low...after 1000 feet it's okay. That being said, many glider pilots fly so out of position that one cannot tell what their intentions might be. I've given the wing wag telling the glider to get off with no response.....when there is a solid overcast and I'm within 500 feet of the bottoms I will let you know with the proper signal....you do NOT have the option to ignore my signal as I might also have something wrong with my tug...We try to give everyone the best service we can under the conditions in which we fly. Perhaps there should be a new FAA requirement that ALL glider pilots spend some time in a two place tug flying tow, they might gain an appreciation for what the tow pilot does. We have had one guy with tons of flying experience qualify and fly 3 tows only to declare that flying tow is for DARE DEVILS, and give it up. .... I've only had one bad experience with someone getting way high on me, I can tell you it's not a pleasant situation and he came very close to getting dropped..... Remember folks, if the tug pilot doesn't show up......you're going nowhere.

Walt Connelly
Tow Pilot/ Commercial Glider Pilot and all round nice guy.

[Karl Kunz[_2_]]

Sorry Don, I can't disagree with more. I've given thousands of tows, most of them with students in the glider doing boxing the wake, high/low tow position and steering turns and have never once experienced or heard of any tow plane upsets. The only incidences I have heard of have been gliders getting to high on the tow plane during takeoff or not getting off tow when signaled do to engine failure etc. I believe this training makes for much better glider pilots on tow.
Can you cite on accident attributable to steering turns?


On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 1:15:06 PM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 18:11 30 April 2015, Gav Goudie wrote:
> >With their permission I will gladly give you the contact details of a
> >least 2
> >tow pilots who have experienced just such a thing (unless it was their
> >imagination of course...)
> >
> >GG
> >
> >At 14:55 30 April 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
> >It's perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering informatio
> >to a
> >>=
> >>tow plane through positioning, without causing any sort of divergent
> >>situat=
> >>ion. There is no significant danger of flick rolls (at least with a
> 200'
> >>r=
> >>ope and any tow plane in my experience), that's just someone'
> >imagination
> >>=
> >>running wild.
> >>
> >
> Ok, I do fly in the UK. In 50 years of gliding this is the first I have
> heard of this "technique". It is certainly never taught and as far as I am
> aware, never ever condoned. I can say that if a pilot on my club tried it
> he would receive counselling and told never to do it ever again. Tug upsets
> are thankfully rare in the UK and I am beginning to understand why they are
> not so rare elsewhere. Attempting to control an aircraft from outside,
> against the will of the pilot is nothing short of crazy but each to his own
> I suppose.
> In answer to the question, if the tug is going somewhere I am not happy to
> go I would seize the yellow knob and pull. It may well be that after we
> both landed a discussion takes place but that is where such problems should
> be sorted, on the ground. Bit of a moot point as where I fly both tugs and
> gliders have radio and in my particular situation if the radio is U/s the
> aircraft is U/s.
> Just because a procedure is sanctioned by an organisation does not make it
> safe, it can just mean that enough crazy people have decided to do it.
> Of course it is perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering
> information to a tow plane, being possible does not make it wise or safe.
> On cloud flying I would tend to agree with you, but in that case you are
> only putting at risk yourself and perhaps anyone else who chooses to be in
> the same cloud, and that is not going to be me in any event.
> A very good mate of mine told me very early on in my gliding career that
> the biggest danger a tug pilot faced was the glider pilot flying behind
> him. He was right and proved it in the saddest way possible. Being out of
> position puts the tug pilot at risk, the glider pilot almost always gets
> away with it.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 4:15:06 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:

....snip...
> Attempting to control an aircraft from outside,
> against the will of the pilot is nothing short of crazy but each to his own
> I suppose.
....snip...

My joking comment (about running out of rudder) at the beginning of the thread aside, you seem to have picked up an incorrect idea about how this SIGNAL is supposed to work.

The glider pilot will position themselves just outside of the tow plane's wingtip. Just about where you would box the wake. Then the tow plane's pilot is supposed to notice this and turn in the direction away from the glider.. When the glider moves back to center, then the tow plane straightens out..

It is not "against the will of the pilot" it is communication, without the radio.

Todd Smith
3S

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 1:15:06 PM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 18:11 30 April 2015, Gav Goudie wrote:
> >With their permission I will gladly give you the contact details of a
> >least 2
> >tow pilots who have experienced just such a thing (unless it was their
> >imagination of course...)
> >
> >GG
> >
> >At 14:55 30 April 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
> >It's perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering informatio
> >to a
> >>=
> >>tow plane through positioning, without causing any sort of divergent
> >>situat=
> >>ion. There is no significant danger of flick rolls (at least with a
> 200'
> >>r=
> >>ope and any tow plane in my experience), that's just someone'
> >imagination
> >>=
> >>running wild.
> >>
> >
> Ok, I do fly in the UK. In 50 years of gliding this is the first I have
> heard of this "technique". It is certainly never taught and as far as I am
> aware, never ever condoned. I can say that if a pilot on my club tried it
> he would receive counselling and told never to do it ever again. Tug upsets
> are thankfully rare in the UK and I am beginning to understand why they are
> not so rare elsewhere. Attempting to control an aircraft from outside,
> against the will of the pilot is nothing short of crazy but each to his own
> I suppose.
> In answer to the question, if the tug is going somewhere I am not happy to
> go I would seize the yellow knob and pull. It may well be that after we
> both landed a discussion takes place but that is where such problems should
> be sorted, on the ground. Bit of a moot point as where I fly both tugs and
> gliders have radio and in my particular situation if the radio is U/s the
> aircraft is U/s.
> Just because a procedure is sanctioned by an organisation does not make it
> safe, it can just mean that enough crazy people have decided to do it.
> Of course it is perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering
> information to a tow plane, being possible does not make it wise or safe.
> On cloud flying I would tend to agree with you, but in that case you are
> only putting at risk yourself and perhaps anyone else who chooses to be in
> the same cloud, and that is not going to be me in any event.
> A very good mate of mine told me very early on in my gliding career that
> the biggest danger a tug pilot faced was the glider pilot flying behind
> him. He was right and proved it in the saddest way possible. Being out of
> position puts the tug pilot at risk, the glider pilot almost always gets
> away with it.

No one is actually controlling the tow plane, it is a signal!!
You dont need to move further to the right than when boxing the wake.
I guess you also never heard about boxing the wake...
Sigh...

Ramy

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 2:00:06 AM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:

> If I were to...

Don, what you do or do not do is of little relevance to the discussion at hand.

Thanks, Bob K.

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 4:41:15 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

> No one is actually controlling the tow plane, it is a signal!!
> You dont need to move further to the right than when boxing the wake.

Well...kinda depends on how good the tow plane's mirrors are. Sometimes, it can be real hard to see where the glider has gone! But when the slip ball starts to slide over, it's pretty obvious that a turn is being directed!

As long as everything is done smoothly, it will be pretty obvious to the tuggie that a turn is in order.

And it's kinda fun, actually...at both ends of the string.

Kirk
Just a wild and crazy guy! (and a Steve Martin fan)

[Dan Marotta]

Thanks for the explanation of the "flick roll", Kirk. I hadn't
considered roll/yaw coupling because of the straight wings of the tugs.
Wouldn't a bent wing jet make a heck of a tug?

And did nobody catch my error about Australian towing? They go to LOW
to shortly after takeoff. I verified this with a Crown subject who
resides in the USA and has flown in Oz.

On 4/30/2015 10:50 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:22:16 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> If I understand the difference in idiom, the British term "flick
>> roll" is equivalent to the US term "snap roll". If that's correct,
>> stalling the vertical fin will not cause a snap roll which is a spin
>> in the horizontal plane. And, as we all know, a spin requires a
>> stall with yaw. In the case of a snap roll, it is an accelerated
>> stall and I don't see any change in AoA of the wing to cause that
>> stall. But then I'm just a poor victim if US military flight
>> training... Or I could be wrong on the term "flick roll". Or the
>> BGA manual could be (horrors) wrong!
> Dan, I remember reading the BGA article and I think they were referring to what the towplane did when the vertical stabilizer stalled (due to the yaw from a glider WAY out to the side). The sudden loss of all yaw stability results in the tug suddenly yawing away from the glider, and the roll due to the sudden yaw results in a pretty impressive roll. Perhaps not a classic "snap roll" but interesting nevertheless!
>
> So many interesting things going on in this thread! For the original poster: Bob, it sounds like you have a tow pilot who needs some "counseling" on his responsibility as a tuggie. If it's a commercial operation, talk to the chief towpilot or the owner, and worse case take you business somewhere else. In a club situation, that tow pilot should be retrained, and if he continues to ignore the standards, asked to leave (it doesn't sound like he's a glider pilot).
>
> For Dave Springford and Don Johnstone (assuming you fly in Britain), are you saying that steering turns are not done there? What if the towplane is taking you downwind over unlandable terrain, and your radio doesn't work? You would just sit there? As far as steering turns being dangerous - how so? Unless you are deliberately holding off the yaw due to the glider moving off to the side (as in boxing the wake, which should be prebriefed prior to the launch), a smart tow pilot will just let the glider gently pull him in the direction he wants to go. And you have to move out pretty far before you significantly change the flightpath of the towplane. So, a competent glider pilot will stay behind the towplane, a competent tuggie will be clearing the flight path, and working as a team, they will proceed the the optimum release point, using whatever works best (radio or signals). Where a radio is really nice is the rare situation where the glider is trying to force the tug to go somewhere he really doesn't want (like a cloud, or other traffic). Without a radio, you pretty much are stuck with standing on the rudder and the glider should realize that you are intentionally refusing to turn. But the glider should never go so far out to the side that he risks stalling the tug tail (which is really far out!). So, nothing crazy at all about it.
>
> By the way - the military uses visual signals all the time in high speed jets, despite all sorts of fancy radios. Why talk when you can do it silently...
>
> Finally, Dan, I know that guy! He's the glider pilot who gets pulled through a boomer multiple times, underneath a climbing gaggle, and refuses to get off until 3000'agl, which is of course when you are in the sink from that boomer! Those glider guys, they are such a hoot!
>
> Kirk
> 66
> (Flies on both ends of the string)

--
Dan Marotta

[glidergeek]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 10:51:55 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
> So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.
>
> Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it.. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.

Steering turns were taught to me at this place and this is on there web site. I'm surprised you old timers have not chimed in.
From Sky Sailing webpage:
http://www.skysailing.com/pages/signals1.htm

GLIDER SIGNALS:
Move to left/right, line up tail wheel to main of towplane = steering turn (note: you must remain in that position until you want the tug to go straight, use coordinated turns to get into position, DO NOT just rudder out)

[Frank Whiteley]

I trained in the UK in 1977. We were taught how to steer the tow plane. I've only needed/tried to steer the tow plane to better looking sky a couple of times in the UK and a couple of times in the US. One of US tow pilots seemed clueless, otherwise it worked fine.

I once had a release failure in the UK. Open Cirrus "B". I flew abeam left and rocked the wings three times. No response at all from the tow pilot. The release finally let go. I had landed at one UK site and needed a cast-iron thermal to get to home plate. Got there okay and had the CG tow hook replaced before flying the Cirrus again.

Released once in anger when the tow pilot gave the wing rock. Out of fuel. 180 return from 200ft. Proper apology for departing without fuel.

Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes not.

Frank Whiteley

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:51:39 PM UTC-4, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> Don, what you do or do not do is of little relevance to the discussion at hand.

Maybe the UK is dead wrong in this case (or not), but it is useful to hear the divergence of opinion/experience. I'm waiting to see if anyone can cite a case of a botched USA signal causing a tug upset.

If the glider pilot botches the signal, and goes too far out of position horizontally, would that cause the tug a problem? If pilots are routinely sloppy about tow position, it's plausible that a 'please turn signal' could be badly botched. What are the scenarios for a botched 'please turn signal'?

Related: Is it safe to 'box the wake' while the tug is making a turn? I vaguely recall that a CFI-G had me do that once or twice.

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 5:00:06 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
> If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have one
> expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying out to
> the side, seriously?

[PGS]

"Attempting to steer the towplane by pulling his tail around is just dumb. "

As a tow pilot, I expect the glider to pull my tail around and steer me to where he/she wants to go if they are not happy with my choice. I think Dave's response is just dumb. Obviously a radio call is the first choice for re-directing me.

[Jim David]

As a tow pilot, I have no problem letting the glider steer me.

As a glider pilot, I have no problem giving the tow pilot directional suggestions. However, If the tow pilot is unresponsive to my suggestions, I don't push the envelope much past the normal wake boxing position.
That would be stupid.

Once a glider pilot tried to steer me toward a bank of clouds at our current altitude, and I refused. He was frustrated I guess, because he yanked my tail in the same direction a second time, as if forgetting to release the rope. The tow was an instructional flight and the instructor was attempting to demonstrate steering. He could have easily gone the other way, which was clear of clouds. So, I terminated the tow.
See ya...

The practice isn't inherently dangerous, done correctly. Some pilots don't.
Jim.

[Dan Marotta]

There's no reason why you could not box the wake during a turn or why
the tug could not execute a turn during a boxing exercise other than the
CFI-G doesn't seem to want to do it. It's simply extended trail
formation flying as is the tow.

On 5/1/2015 6:13 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:51:39 PM UTC-4, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
>> Don, what you do or do not do is of little relevance to the discussion at hand.
> Maybe the UK is dead wrong in this case (or not), but it is useful to hear the divergence of opinion/experience. I'm waiting to see if anyone can cite a case of a botched USA signal causing a tug upset.
>
> If the glider pilot botches the signal, and goes too far out of position horizontally, would that cause the tug a problem? If pilots are routinely sloppy about tow position, it's plausible that a 'please turn signal' could be badly botched. What are the scenarios for a botched 'please turn signal'?
>
> Related: Is it safe to 'box the wake' while the tug is making a turn? I vaguely recall that a CFI-G had me do that once or twice.
>
> On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 5:00:06 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
>> If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have one
>> expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying out to
>> the side, seriously?

--
Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

Jim,

Did you wave him off or drop the rope? Ropes and rings are expensive!

On 5/1/2015 7:08 AM, Jim David wrote:
> As a tow pilot, I have no problem letting the glider steer me.
>
> As a glider pilot, I have no problem giving the tow pilot directional suggestions. However, If the tow pilot is unresponsive to my suggestions, I don't push the envelope much past the normal wake boxing position.
> That would be stupid.
>
> Once a glider pilot tried to steer me toward a bank of clouds at our current altitude, and I refused. He was frustrated I guess, because he yanked my tail in the same direction a second time, as if forgetting to release the rope. The tow was an instructional flight and the instructor was attempting to demonstrate steering. He could have easily gone the other way, which was clear of clouds. So, I terminated the tow.
> See ya...
>
> The practice isn't inherently dangerous, done correctly. Some pilots don't.
> Jim.
>
>

--
Dan Marotta

[Justin Craig[_3_]]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhKpp1eMAbA



At 14:36 01 May 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>Jim,
>
>Did you wave him off or drop the rope? Ropes and rings are expensive!
>
>On 5/1/2015 7:08 AM, Jim David wrote:
>> As a tow pilot, I have no problem letting the glider steer me.
>>
>> As a glider pilot, I have no problem giving the tow pilot directional
>suggestions. However, If the tow pilot is unresponsive to my suggestions,
I
>don't push the envelope much past the normal wake boxing position.
>> That would be stupid.
>>
>> Once a glider pilot tried to steer me toward a bank of clouds at our
>current altitude, and I refused. He was frustrated I guess, because he
>yanked my tail in the same direction a second time, as if forgetting to
>release the rope. The tow was an instructional flight and the instructor
>was attempting to demonstrate steering. He could have easily gone the
other
>way, which was clear of clouds. So, I terminated the tow.
>> See ya...
>>
>> The practice isn't inherently dangerous, done correctly. Some pilots
>don't.
>> Jim.
>>
>>
>
>--
>Dan Marotta
>

[kirk.stant]

It would be cool to have a Swift towed by an Extra 300, they could do counter-rotating synchronized rolls on tow...with colored smoke, that would look awesome!

Kirk

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:14:53 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Don,
>
>
>
> This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots.* In the US, steering
> the tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training.* It is
> not dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.
>
>
>
> In the US, my experience regarding ground launch has typically been
> that most folks consider it dangerous.* I find it quite enjoyable
> and cost effective compared to air tow.
>
>
>
> I understand that, in Australia, it is MANDATORY to fly in high tow
> position.* That makes me very uncomfortable when I'm flying the tug..
>
>
>
> In Britain, they do a lot of cloud flying.* You've already read in
> recent threads that US pilots (me excluded) think that's crazy and
> dangerous.
>
>
>
> So I ask you:* What's dangerous?* Is it what you think is dangerous
> based upon your experience and under common practices where you fly,
> or is it what is out of the ordinary for the region in question?* I
> think the latter choice is more appropriate.
>
>
>
>
> On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone
> wrote:
>
>
>
> At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>
>
>
> ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
> h=
> e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
> no=
> t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
> bee=
> n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.
>
>
> OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
> glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
> idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
> I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
> The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
> position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
> have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
> go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
> is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
> essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
> If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
> limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail. What will the towpilot do if you are pulling the tail left and he needs to turn left for traffic? Is it worth losing a rope? or having the rope wrap around your wing when the towpilot is forced to release? or have the towpilot or you run get in a mid-air?

There are many things that have been changed in gliding manuals over the years. You're allowed to make changes as you gain experience.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 5/1/2015 8:43 PM, wrote:
> On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:14:53 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Don,
>>
>> This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots. In the US, steering the
>> tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training. It is not
>> dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.
<Snip>
>>
>> On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
>> OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
>> glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a
>> complete idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the
>> first time I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure. The duty of a
>> glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct position
>> behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you have
>> no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
>> go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While
>> it is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes,
>> it is essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand. If
>> you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
>> limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.
>
> I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's
> ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail. What will the
> towpilot do if you are pulling the tail left and he needs to turn left for
> traffic? Is it worth losing a rope? or having the rope wrap around your
> wing when the towpilot is forced to release? or have the towpilot or you
> run get in a mid-air?
>
> There are many things that have been changed in gliding manuals over the
> years. You're allowed to make changes as you gain experience.

I've no problem with that last paragraph.

WRT the immediately preceding paragraph, I'd suggest it's also possible to
overthink things. The O.P.'s point was he'd tried to signal a U.S. towpilot to
turn a certain direction and was ignored. THAT - by far - is the most
common/likely effect from an ignored or not understood turn signal from a
glider moving off to one side.

The U.S. (and my own) experience is gliders moving to one side or another to
silently signal a turn, works, when folks at both end of the rope are properly
trained and switched on. Those times my signal was ignored...I rationalized I
just practiced 25% of a boxed wake!

So far as I'm aware, your hypothetical scenario has never happened in the
U.S., while I know of two situations where a signaled turn presented and
responded to in a timely manner may have *prevented* the towplanes being
center-punched by light power traffic. Understand, we're talking statistical
probabilities near zero...

Bob W.

[6PK]

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 7:43:32 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:14:53 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Don,
> >
> >
> >
> > This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots.* In the US, steering
> > the tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training.* It is
> > not dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.
> >
> >
> >
> > In the US, my experience regarding ground launch has typically been
> > that most folks consider it dangerous.* I find it quite enjoyable
> > and cost effective compared to air tow.
> >
> >
> >
> > I understand that, in Australia, it is MANDATORY to fly in high tow
> > position.* That makes me very uncomfortable when I'm flying the tug.
> >
> >
> >
> > In Britain, they do a lot of cloud flying.* You've already read in
> > recent threads that US pilots (me excluded) think that's crazy and
> > dangerous.
> >
> >
> >
> > So I ask you:* What's dangerous?* Is it what you think is dangerous
> > based upon your experience and under common practices where you fly,
> > or is it what is out of the ordinary for the region in question?* I
> > think the latter choice is more appropriate.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
> > h=
> > e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
> > no=
> > t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
> > bee=
> > n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.
> >
> >
> > OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
> > glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
> > idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
> > I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
> > The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
> > position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
> > have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
> > go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
> > is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
> > essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
> > If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
> > limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Dan Marotta
>
> I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail. What will the towpilot do if you are pulling the tail left and he needs to turn left for traffic? Is it worth losing a rope? or having the rope wrap around your wing when the towpilot is forced to release? or have the towpilot or you run get in a mid-air?
>
> There are many things that have been changed in gliding manuals over the years. You're allowed to make changes as you gain experience.

snip ;""I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail""
By moving the glider to wingtip position would hardly inhibit the tow pilot's ability to turn or maneuver. Yes, it should get his attention that the glider is out to the side, nothing more and nothing less. And yes; I would like to emphasize that this maneuver is not meant to be "yanking" or anything abrupt (as some previous authors implied).
It is no different, the matter affect very much the same as moving out to one side kind like boxing the wake. And I'm sure no one is suggesting "yanking the wake".
6PK

[Bruce Hoult]

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 6:22:18 AM UTC+3, 6PK wrote:
> On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 7:43:32 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:14:53 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Don,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots.* In the US, steering
> > > the tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training.* It is
> > > not dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In the US, my experience regarding ground launch has typically been
> > > that most folks consider it dangerous.* I find it quite enjoyable
> > > and cost effective compared to air tow.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I understand that, in Australia, it is MANDATORY to fly in high tow
> > > position.* That makes me very uncomfortable when I'm flying the tug.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In Britain, they do a lot of cloud flying.* You've already read in
> > > recent threads that US pilots (me excluded) think that's crazy and
> > > dangerous.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So I ask you:* What's dangerous?* Is it what you think is dangerous
> > > based upon your experience and under common practices where you fly,
> > > or is it what is out of the ordinary for the region in question?* I
> > > think the latter choice is more appropriate.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
> > > h=
> > > e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
> > > no=
> > > t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
> > > bee=
> > > n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.
> > >
> > >
> > > OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
> > > glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
> > > idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
> > > I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
> > > The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
> > > position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
> > > have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
> > > go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
> > > is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
> > > essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
> > > If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
> > > limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Dan Marotta
> >
> > I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail. What will the towpilot do if you are pulling the tail left and he needs to turn left for traffic? Is it worth losing a rope? or having the rope wrap around your wing when the towpilot is forced to release? or have the towpilot or you run get in a mid-air?
> >
> > There are many things that have been changed in gliding manuals over the years. You're allowed to make changes as you gain experience.
>
> snip ;""I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail""
> By moving the glider to wingtip position would hardly inhibit the tow pilot's ability to turn or maneuver. Yes, it should get his attention that the glider is out to the side, nothing more and nothing less. And yes; I would like to emphasize that this maneuver is not meant to be "yanking" or anything abrupt (as some previous authors implied).
> It is no different, the matter affect very much the same as moving out to one side kind like boxing the wake. And I'm sure no one is suggesting "yanking the wake".
> 6PK

If it is merely a signal to the towpilot that has little to no actual effect on the towplane and it's up to the tow pilot to take the hint or not, then that is one thing. If it is physically pulled the towplane's tail around then that is quite another!

When I'm giving introductory lessons, manoeuvring out to one tip of the towplane's wing for a few seconds is something I do routinely, to illustrate my spoken point that I am actively flying the glider, not passively following the tug. I certainly don't want the tug to turn as a result!

[Bob Pasker]

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 11:13:38 PM UTC-4, Bob Whelan wrote:
> The O.P.'s point was he'd tried to signal a U.S. towpilot to
> turn a certain direction and was ignored. THAT - by far - is the most
> common/likely effect from an ignored or not understood turn signal from a
> glider moving off to one side.

this OP thanks you for bringing this full circle. and from a few towpilots' responses, my experience is borne out: some certainly don't pay attention to glider signals, except the tailwag on the ground and wingrock in the air.

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 7:46:38 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:

> If it is merely a signal to the towpilot that has little to no actual effect on the towplane and it's up to the tow pilot to take the hint or not, then that is one thing. If it is physically pulled the towplane's tail around then that is quite another!

That seems to sugar coat what happens sometimes... To paraphrase my excellent and expert CFI-G... 'You really have to pull on the tug's tail and point him in the direction that you want to go.' And so, on more than one occasion, I've given much more than a subtle signal and I've not yet gotten a complaint from a tug pilot.

That said, I will going forward, use the radio in lieu of tail pulling. Maintaining optimal position behind the tug might provide a slightly better margin, especially on a gusty day, and especially if a tug pilot might react by releasing me at low altitude.

I still think that 'boxing the wake' (with the tug pilot's OK) on a reasonably calm day is a very good skill building exercise and that it is well worth the small risk above 1500 AGL or so.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 9:48:07 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I still think that 'boxing the wake' (with the tug pilot's OK) on a reasonably calm day is a very good skill building exercise and that it is well worth the small risk above 1500 AGL or so.

There is *no* risk - it's standard operations, and a tow on a good soaring day or rotor is likely more stressful on the rope and towplane.

5Z

[Bill T]

I do not need the tug pilots "Ok" to box the wake. Although as a courtesy in a training environment I will call to ask him to "hold heading" for the student. It's normally been pre briefed before takeoff anyway.
Boxing in a turn, no issues, it's a little tough for the tow pilot when you are inside the turn, he has to work harder, but he'll be rewarded when you are outside the turn.

As a CFIG and Tow Pilot, we train our tow pilots. It's hard to get qualified Pawnee tow pilots, so we grow our own.
During qualification training I will go to the left and right limits on tow so the new tuggie will know what could happen. I will not go to low limit, just a little lower than a normal box the wake. I will move off to the side so I can see the tow and move to a god awful high position so the new tuggie can realize what could happen if a glider kited on him.

I had a visiting glider pilot that zoomed and turned to "spring board" off the tow to get some extra altitude. I saw him go low and felt him start his zoom climb. He yanked me pretty hard and was late on his release and pulled my tail up and side ways, I told him if he tries that again it was his last tow at our club.
BillT

[Jim David]

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 10:37:05 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Jim,
>
>
>
> Did you wave him off or drop the rope?* Ropes and rings are
> expensive!
>
> Dan Marotta

Hi Dan,

My situation was pretty violent. It was a botched attempt at steering. There were two very strong tugs to my left, one after another. After the second wallop, I was convinced that the glider pilot thought he had released and was executing his clearing turn (we were near the release altitude).

I personally know two tow pilots that have been the recipient of clearing turns after the glider pilot _thought_ they had released and both tow pilots ended up standing on the rudder peddles. One wound up in an inverted spin.

I didn't want to give the glider pilot a third try, so I released them.
The instructor was smart enough to return to the airport with the rope.

I've never been yanked that hard, even in wave turbulence.
Believe me, they deserved the rope.

Regards,
Jim

[Dan Marotta]

Understand. Thanks for telling your story.

I had a glider get so far out of position once (high and outside the
turn) that, as I was reaching for the release, he dived across my tail,
wrapping the rope around the wing of his borrowed HP-14. The wing was
cut, top and bottom, all the way to the spar. He didn't even realize
what he'd done until that evening he when he asked for help derigging.
I was invited to come over and have a look.

Dan

On 5/3/2015 5:50 PM, Jim David wrote:
> On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 10:37:05 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Jim,
>>
>>
>>
>> Did you wave him off or drop the rope? Ropes and rings are
>> expensive!
>>
>> Dan Marotta
> Hi Dan,
>
> My situation was pretty violent. It was a botched attempt at steering. There were two very strong tugs to my left, one after another. After the second wallop, I was convinced that the glider pilot thought he had released and was executing his clearing turn (we were near the release altitude).
>
> I personally know two tow pilots that have been the recipient of clearing turns after the glider pilot _thought_ they had released and both tow pilots ended up standing on the rudder peddles. One wound up in an inverted spin.
>
> I didn't want to give the glider pilot a third try, so I released them.
> The instructor was smart enough to return to the airport with the rope.
>
> I've never been yanked that hard, even in wave turbulence.
> Believe me, they deserved the rope.
>
> Regards,
> Jim
>

--
Dan Marotta

[[email protected]]

Student pilot here: can someone please explain why the SSA signals for the turn are the opposite of what is in the FAA Glider Flying Handbook?

That seems like it could cause some confusion. The SSA signals seem to make more sense, and seem accurate to what is discussed here.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/glider_handbook/media/gfh_ch07.pdf Figure 7.2

vs

http://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

-Garrett

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 10:57:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Student pilot here: can someone please explain why the SSA signals for the turn are the opposite of what is in the FAA Glider Flying Handbook?
>
> That seems like it could cause some confusion. The SSA signals seem to make more sense, and seem accurate to what is discussed here.
>
> https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/glider_handbook/media/gfh_ch07.pdf Figure 7.2
>
> vs
>
> http://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html
>
> -Garrett

This version of the Glider Flying Handbook is incorrect.
UH

[PGS]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 10:57:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Student pilot here: can someone please explain why the SSA signals for the turn are the opposite of what is in the FAA Glider Flying Handbook?
>
> That seems like it could cause some confusion. The SSA signals seem to make more sense, and seem accurate to what is discussed here.
>
> https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/glider_handbook/media/gfh_ch07.pdf Figure 7.2
>
> vs
>
> http://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html
>
> -Garrett

Garrett, The FAA publication is WRONG.

[Dan Marotta]

....Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!

Dan

On 5/3/2015 8:57 PM, wrote:
> Student pilot here: can someone please explain why the SSA signals for the turn are the opposite of what is in the FAA Glider Flying Handbook?
>
> That seems like it could cause some confusion. The SSA signals seem to make more sense, and seem accurate to what is discussed here.
>
> https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/glider_handbook/media/gfh_ch07.pdf Figure 7.2
>
> vs
>
> http://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html
>
> -Garrett

--
Dan Marotta

[C-FFKQ (42)]

On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> ...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!
>
>
>
> Dan

Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the left... causing a left turn.

Hence, the FAA version is wrong.

Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the numerous errors in that book.

[Jim Lewis[_2_]]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 10:51:55 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
> So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.
>
> Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it.. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.
>
> --bob

I admit that the general consensus to this posting disturbs me a little. I have moved left or right to signal a desire to change the direction of the tow (when, for some reason a radio cannot be used) , but I do not consider this to be "steering" the tow plane. I am signaling the tow pilot of my wish to change the direction, but i do not consider this to be "steering" the tow plane. I feel it is entirely the tow pilot's responsibility and decision as to where to fly. If the tow pilot accepts my signaling, fine; if not, fine too. If the tow pilot does not accept my signal I have no way to know if the tow pilot even noticed my signal. That's fine too.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 9:11:03 AM UTC-6, C-FFKQ (42) wrote:
> On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > ...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!
> >
> >
> >
> > Dan
>
> Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the left.... causing a left turn.
>
> Hence, the FAA version is wrong.
>
> Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the numerous errors in that book.

The SSA and SSAF tried unsuccessfully to review the draft. Note the foreword thanks to the SSA at ssa.com. When the FAA version was published, that domain was still for sale at a ridiculous price, and had been for nearly 20 years. Looks like the other SSA finally got their hands on it.

Frank Whiteley

[[email protected]]

"As a towpilot, if you get far enough out of position to "steer" me and I run out of leg, expect to see my end of the tow rope coming back at you.

Attempting to steer the towplane by pulling his tail around is just dumb."

Using the radio to ask the tow pilot to change course is vastly preferable to using the turn signals (just as is the case with most of the other tow-glider signals) but they are standard Soaring Association Of Canada procedures and are in the student and instructor manuals. They specify "pull gently" and should be done so that you don't get any more out to the side than during a boxing the wake exercise.

I've never used them because I use the radio.

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 15:11 04 May 2015, C-FFKQ 42 wrote:
>On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> ...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!
>>
>>
>>
>> Dan
>
>Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the
>towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the
>left... causing a left turn.
>
>Hence, the FAA version is wrong.
>
>Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the
>numerous errors in that book.

So let me get this straight, the SSA say one thing and the FAA say exactly
the opposite about a very questionable procedure. I can be forgiven for
thinking that perhaps there is something a bit wrong with your approach to
this subject. You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended. Have a thought for the poor tug pilot, his
reaction will depend on which book he has read. The best you can be
guaranteed to achieve is that if you fly out to one side the tug pilot will
change direction, not necessarily the direction you intended, very useful.

[6PK]

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 6:00:05 AM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 15:11 04 May 2015, C-FFKQ 42 wrote:
> >On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> ...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dan
> >
> >Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the
> >towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the
> >left... causing a left turn.
> >
> >Hence, the FAA version is wrong.
> >
> >Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the
> >numerous errors in that book.
>
> So let me get this straight, the SSA say one thing and the FAA say exactly
> the opposite about a very questionable procedure. I can be forgiven for
> thinking that perhaps there is something a bit wrong with your approach to
> this subject. You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
> in the direction you intended. Have a thought for the poor tug pilot, his
> reaction will depend on which book he has read. The best you can be
> guaranteed to achieve is that if you fly out to one side the tug pilot will
> change direction, not necessarily the direction you intended, very useful.

In all fairness I'm sure they both meant the same. It was an unfortunate typo that god only knows why was never corrected.
On the other hand as an experienced tow pilot if someone went out on say your left side for you turning even more to the left would make little sense.
6PK

[James Metcalfe]

At 12:57 14 May 2015, Don Johnstone wrote:
>... You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
>in the direction you intended.

Excellent, Don, and very worthy of someone from a traditionally
sea-faring nation!
ROTFL.
J.

[Dan Marotta]

As a glider pilot and tuggie, please let me try to explain:

First, the radio is always preferable but, should communications fail,
then the signals take over.

As to the SSA/FAA difference on the glider requesting a turn signal -
use your head! This is not meant in a confrontational manner but
think: If the glider pulls your tail to the left, which way does your
nose point? To the right, right? Well, that's the direction the glider
wants to go. It's unfortunate that the FAA won't make such a simple
change to an erroneous figure in their document.

On 5/14/2015 6:57 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 15:11 04 May 2015, C-FFKQ 42 wrote:
>> On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> ...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dan
>> Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the
>> towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the
>> left... causing a left turn.
>>
>> Hence, the FAA version is wrong.
>>
>> Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the
>> numerous errors in that book.
> So let me get this straight, the SSA say one thing and the FAA say exactly
> the opposite about a very questionable procedure. I can be forgiven for
> thinking that perhaps there is something a bit wrong with your approach to
> this subject. You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
> in the direction you intended. Have a thought for the poor tug pilot, his
> reaction will depend on which book he has read. The best you can be
> guaranteed to achieve is that if you fly out to one side the tug pilot will
> change direction, not necessarily the direction you intended, very useful.
>

--
Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

<snip>...if someone went out on say your left side for you turning even
more to the left would make little sense. 6PK
Actually, turning into the glider would create a lot of slack in the
rope very quickly. It makes me a bit nervous to think that there are a
lot of pilots who don't understand such simple concepts.
--
Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

Actually... To turn you need to pull one of your oars in. You see,
pulling equally on both oars results in a straight course. I thought
that was common sense but I guess I was wrong...

On 5/14/2015 9:27 AM, James Metcalfe wrote:
> At 12:57 14 May 2015, Don Johnstone wrote:
>> ... You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
>> in the direction you intended.
> Excellent, Don, and very worthy of someone from a traditionally
> sea-faring nation!
> ROTFL.
> J.
>

--
Dan Marotta

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 12:47:18 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> As a glider pilot and tuggie, please let me try to explain:
>
>
>
> First, the radio is always preferable but, should communications
> fail, then the signals take over.
>
>
>
> As to the SSA/FAA difference on the glider requesting a turn signal
> - use your head!* This is not meant in a confrontational manner but
> think:* If the glider pulls your tail to the left, which way does
> your nose point?* To the right, right?* Well, that's the direction
> the glider wants to go.* It's unfortunate that the FAA won't make
> such a simple change to an erroneous figure in their document.

Dan, maybe you've hit one of the issues on the head...... what is the background of the tow pilot?

If a "power guy", maybe they don't like getting steered.
If a "glider guy" that tows, maybe they don't mind.

At our field, pretty much all our tow pilots are also glider guys, thus they may understand what the glider pilot wants.
They also tend to have an idea on WHO is on the other end. A low time student may just be out of shape (towplane goes straight & ignores steering) while someone with more time may want steering.

We try to tow to the "hot spot of the moment" (based on last tow) but are willing to be steered as needed for those that "may" have a better idea.

[Dan Marotta]

Right on the head, Charlie.

When we get a new tow pilot who's not a glider pilot, we give him a lot
of guidance on what glider pilots want in addition to the FAA required
training. That said, it usually takes a couple of weeks for the new
tuggie to stop circling in dead air or simply flying straight out
that-a-way. They're always good about accepting steering commands via
radio, though not so much via a tug on the tail. Fortunately we all
have radios, but in a training environment, I always expect some tail
tugging with students on board. These are usually briefed in advance.

On 5/14/2015 11:07 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 12:47:18 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> As a glider pilot and tuggie, please let me try to explain:
>>
>>
>>
>> First, the radio is always preferable but, should communications
>> fail, then the signals take over.
>>
>>
>>
>> As to the SSA/FAA difference on the glider requesting a turn signal
>> - use your head! This is not meant in a confrontational manner but
>> think: If the glider pulls your tail to the left, which way does
>> your nose point? To the right, right? Well, that's the direction
>> the glider wants to go. It's unfortunate that the FAA won't make
>> such a simple change to an erroneous figure in their document.
> Dan, maybe you've hit one of the issues on the head...... what is the background of the tow pilot?
>
> If a "power guy", maybe they don't like getting steered.
> If a "glider guy" that tows, maybe they don't mind.
>
> At our field, pretty much all our tow pilots are also glider guys, thus they may understand what the glider pilot wants.
> They also tend to have an idea on WHO is on the other end. A low time student may just be out of shape (towplane goes straight & ignores steering) while someone with more time may want steering.
>
> We try to tow to the "hot spot of the moment" (based on last tow) but are willing to be steered as needed for those that "may" have a better idea.

--
Dan Marotta

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 1:30:01 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Right on the head, Charlie.
>
>
>
> When we get a new tow pilot who's not a glider pilot, we give him a
> lot of guidance on what glider pilots want in addition to the FAA
> required training.* That said, it usually takes a couple of weeks
> for the new tuggie to stop circling in dead air or simply flying
> straight out that-a-way.* They're always good about accepting
> steering commands via radio, though not so much via a tug on the
> tail.* Fortunately we all have radios, but in a training
> environment, I always expect some tail tugging with students on
> board.* These are usually briefed in advance.
>
>
>
>
> On 5/14/2015 11:07 AM, Charlie M. (UH
> & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 12:47:18 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>
> As a glider pilot and tuggie, please let me try to explain:
>
>
>
> First, the radio is always preferable but, should communications
> fail, then the signals take over.
>
>
>
> As to the SSA/FAA difference on the glider requesting a turn signal
> - use your head!* This is not meant in a confrontational manner but
> think:* If the glider pulls your tail to the left, which way does
> your nose point?* To the right, right?* Well, that's the direction
> the glider wants to go.* It's unfortunate that the FAA won't make
> such a simple change to an erroneous figure in their document.
>
>
> Dan, maybe you've hit one of the issues on the head...... what is the background of the tow pilot?
>
> If a "power guy", maybe they don't like getting steered.
> If a "glider guy" that tows, maybe they don't mind.
>
> At our field, pretty much all our tow pilots are also glider guys, thus they may understand what the glider pilot wants.
> They also tend to have an idea on WHO is on the other end. A low time student may just be out of shape (towplane goes straight & ignores steering) while someone with more time may want steering.
>
> We try to tow to the "hot spot of the moment" (based on last tow) but are willing to be steered as needed for those that "may" have a better idea.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

Glad we agree...... ROTFLMAO.......

As to "steering", there is quite a bit of difference between:
-Slide to the side to steer the towplane in a new direction
vs.
-"Yank that MoFo waaaayyyyyy out there quickly" to get steering. Not approved.

Our towpilot rule is, "When I'm about to hit any control stop, the rope goes 'bye bye'". No use in 2 holes in the ground!!!

I lost a tow pilot friend that "tried to save a tow" from a squirrel that went way too high too close to the ground.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 5/14/2015 6:57 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
<Snip...>
>
> So let me get this straight, the SSA say one thing and the FAA say exactly
> the opposite about a very questionable procedure. I can be forgiven for
> thinking that perhaps there is something a bit wrong with your approach to
> this subject. You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
> in the direction you intended. Have a thought for the poor tug pilot, his
> reaction will depend on which book he has read. The best you can be
> guaranteed to achieve is that if you fly out to one side the tug pilot will
> change direction, not necessarily the direction you intended, very useful.
>

Thanks for today's chuckle! Having difficulty letting this one go, are we? Ten
pounds says Great Britain's bureaucracies aren't the most infallible,
knowledgeable and responsive 800 pound gorillas around, either. I know this
because "Yes Minister" made its way to our side of the pond.

Our FAA - I refer to it as an organization; individually, it does have some
knowledgeable, responsive humans working in it (I've met a few of 'em) - isn't
noted for being the most sprightly of national bureaucracies...nor one of
particularly error-free, sensible pronouncements. There might be a U.S.
ratings-collecting towpilot somewhere who takes the FAA's Glider Flying
Handbook as gospel...but I doubt there's a U.S. soaring pilot who'd be happy
towing behind him if he knew!

OTOH, if you tow over here, U.S. glider-rated towpilots would Be happy to tow
you, regardless of your opinion on this particular matter. I've requested many
a steer by moving to one side or other of the trail position, preferring to
save the airwaves for truly important information. Probably over 95% of my
requests were responded to in mutually satisfactory manner...this entirely by
volunteer club towpilots. The remainder were ignored. No one died. No one got
alarmed. No ulcers were harmed. No sleep was lost.

So my experience has been that, yes, signalling to steer the tug generally
works as intended, is utterly benign when it fails to work, and is about as
much of an event as waiting for a traffic signal to change from red to green.
How sad my experience fails to match your alarmism. :)

Bob W.

P.S. For readers wondering why a steer might be requested in the face of
experienced-towpilot-knowledge, imagine taking the day's first tow into rising
ranges of jumbled mountains when neither of you are certain the day has begun
cooking. I've spent a lot more time scraping along the sides of various ridges
lower than most of our tuggies ever go in a towplane, and the direct route is
often considerably less expensive in bux and tug-time. Everyone benefits from
the steer...me, (arguably) the tuggie, and the glider pilots in the tow queue.
No teapot. No tempest.

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 4:33:58 PM UTC-4, Bob Whelan wrote:

> Our FAA - I refer to it as an organization; individually, it does have some knowledgeable, responsive humans working in it (I've met a few of 'em) - isn't noted for being the most sprightly of national bureaucracies...nor one of particularly error-free, sensible pronouncements.

It's discouraging that the soaring community cannot get the FAA to correct basic errors in the free online handbook that many new pilots find first. For every highly visible shortcoming in an information system, theory and experience says there will be hundreds of less visible shortcomings/defects. And if the process is so broken that simple sh_t like this can't get fixed, what happens on the more complicated issues?

BTW, Knauff and Grove Inc. publishes a hardcopy (second edition 2012) of the same Glider Flying Handbook that the FAA distributes. This version says 'glider pulls tug tail left to request tow to the right'. It claims that 1500 corrections were made in this edition (including spelling and grammatical errors). K & G claims a copyright on the second edition.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 7:01:58 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> "As a towpilot, if you get far enough out of position to "steer" me and I run out of leg, expect to see my end of the tow rope coming back at you.
>
>
> Using the radio to ask the tow pilot to change course is vastly preferable to using the turn signals (just as is the case with most of the other tow-glider signals) but they are standard Soaring Association Of Canada procedures and are in the student and instructor manuals. They specify "pull gently" and should be done so that you don't get any more out to the side than during a boxing the wake exercise.
>
> I've never used them because I use the radio.

How about the tow pilot that refuses your radio request? 1984, PASCO Wave Camp. All gliders are being west and dropped in the general direction of the Kingsbury Grade. Thermal up to 13,500MSL in an apparent boundary layer thermal, push forward, no wave. Try again, no wave. Try again, fall out. Next tow request tow pilot to tow toward Sheridan and drop me over the intersection en route. He refuses and takes me toward Kingsbury, insisting the wave should be there! WTF, none of several gliders had connected there yet despite the rotor and thermal. The wave window wasn't even open. Didn't do much for my attitude either. Who's paying for this tow, anyway? Thermal again to 13,500 and head south. At 11,000MSL over the intersection, the gentle smoothness of wave. Climbing 400ft a minute, I request the wave window be opened passing through 15,000MSL and am told to wait and see how it goes. So after circling for 30 minutes at 17,999MSL with the air brakes open, I finally get the wave window. Topped out at FL270, a few others got into the wave. I think one made FL230. But I got my altitude diamond despite the poor service. That FBO is long gone.

Frank Whiteley