IOS App for Skylines?

[Sean Fidler]

Why is there no IOS app for skylines?

[Surge]

Maybe because this iOS issue remains unresolved?
https://www.facebook.com/skylines.project/posts/552378401447918


There will also not be a version of XCSoar for iOS due to Apple's restrictive distribution policy which violates the GPL license.

Q:
"Now the question that thousand of pilots who have an IPhone/Ipad must be asking including myself, is the next release of the XCsoar 6.3 version available for Mac IOS Iphone and Ipad etc? I hope so"

A:
"No, it won't. This question has been asked many times already, but due to licensing problems we are simply not allowed by Apple to release a version that would run on iPhone/iPad. The Apple AppStore demands that all applications are ONLY distributed over the AppStore and that conflicts with our open source license which demands that no-one should limit anyone in distributing our piece of software in any way you like. We certainly would like to see it running on iOS devices too, but unless Apples lifts this restriction there is not much that we can do about it... Sorry!"
Source: http://forum.xcsoar.org/viewtopic.php?t=230

[Sean Fidler]

I think the time has come for the great talents of the skylines developers to be offered to iOS community even if a data compromise must be endured in the manner the app functions vs android. Please reconsider your stance! I am willing to help develop and/or test.

[Karl Kunz[_2_]]

Since the XCsoar site sends Android users to Google Play to get the software, why do they have a problem with the AppStore. This is just the way that programs are installed on these devices(iOS) and it seems that XCsoar is being MORE restrictive by not allowing one operating system access to an "open source" app.

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 12:21:34 AM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
> Maybe because this iOS issue remains unresolved?
> https://www.facebook.com/skylines.project/posts/552378401447918
>
>
> There will also not be a version of XCSoar for iOS due to Apple's restrictive distribution policy which violates the GPL license.
>
> Q:
> "Now the question that thousand of pilots who have an IPhone/Ipad must be asking including myself, is the next release of the XCsoar 6.3 version available for Mac IOS Iphone and Ipad etc? I hope so"
>
> A:
> "No, it won't. This question has been asked many times already, but due to licensing problems we are simply not allowed by Apple to release a version that would run on iPhone/iPad. The Apple AppStore demands that all applications are ONLY distributed over the AppStore and that conflicts with our open source license which demands that no-one should limit anyone in distributing our piece of software in any way you like. We certainly would like to see it running on iOS devices too, but unless Apples lifts this restriction there is not much that we can do about it... Sorry!"
> Source: http://forum.xcsoar.org/viewtopic.php?t=230

[jfitch]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 7:02:53 AM UTC-7, Karl Kunz wrote:
> Since the XCsoar site sends Android users to Google Play to get the software, why do they have a problem with the AppStore. This is just the way that programs are installed on these devices(iOS) and it seems that XCsoar is being MORE restrictive by not allowing one operating system access to an "open source" app.
>
> On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 12:21:34 AM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
> > Maybe because this iOS issue remains unresolved?
> > https://www.facebook.com/skylines.project/posts/552378401447918
> >
> >
> > There will also not be a version of XCSoar for iOS due to Apple's restrictive distribution policy which violates the GPL license.
> >
> > Q:
> > "Now the question that thousand of pilots who have an IPhone/Ipad must be asking including myself, is the next release of the XCsoar 6.3 version available for Mac IOS Iphone and Ipad etc? I hope so"
> >
> > A:
> > "No, it won't. This question has been asked many times already, but due to licensing problems we are simply not allowed by Apple to release a version that would run on iPhone/iPad. The Apple AppStore demands that all applications are ONLY distributed over the AppStore and that conflicts with our open source license which demands that no-one should limit anyone in distributing our piece of software in any way you like. We certainly would like to see it running on iOS devices too, but unless Apples lifts this restriction there is not much that we can do about it... Sorry!"
> > Source: http://forum.xcsoar.org/viewtopic.php?t=230

The stated reasons are BS. All kinds of GPL stuff distributed by Apple, including the OS.

If I was Apple, I would not approve XCSoar due to its antiquated UI. On an iPhone this would be kind of like buying a F1 chassis and fitting Model T controls to it - hand throttle and spark advance, foot pedal to shift gears. I realize XCSoar is written to also be fit to Model T chassis so that is a compromise they think they have to make.

[Bob Pasker]

the GPL issue is not

the IOS backgorund task issue is easily handled, and I just posted a link to how to handle it.


On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 3:21:34 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
> Maybe because this iOS issue remains unresolved?
> https://www.facebook.com/skylines.project/posts/552378401447918
>
>
> There will also not be a version of XCSoar for iOS due to Apple's restrictive distribution policy which violates the GPL license.
>
> Q:
> "Now the question that thousand of pilots who have an IPhone/Ipad must be asking including myself, is the next release of the XCsoar 6.3 version available for Mac IOS Iphone and Ipad etc? I hope so"
>
> A:
> "No, it won't. This question has been asked many times already, but due to licensing problems we are simply not allowed by Apple to release a version that would run on iPhone/iPad. The Apple AppStore demands that all applications are ONLY distributed over the AppStore and that conflicts with our open source license which demands that no-one should limit anyone in distributing our piece of software in any way you like. We certainly would like to see it running on iOS devices too, but unless Apples lifts this restriction there is not much that we can do about it... Sorry!"
> Source: http://forum.xcsoar.org/viewtopic.php?t=230

[jfitch]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 12:03:15 PM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
> the GPL issue is not
>
> the IOS backgorund task issue is easily handled, and I just posted a link to how to handle it.
>
>
> On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 3:21:34 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
> > Maybe because this iOS issue remains unresolved?
> > https://www.facebook.com/skylines.project/posts/552378401447918
> >
> >
> > There will also not be a version of XCSoar for iOS due to Apple's restrictive distribution policy which violates the GPL license.
> >
> > Q:
> > "Now the question that thousand of pilots who have an IPhone/Ipad must be asking including myself, is the next release of the XCsoar 6.3 version available for Mac IOS Iphone and Ipad etc? I hope so"
> >
> > A:
> > "No, it won't. This question has been asked many times already, but due to licensing problems we are simply not allowed by Apple to release a version that would run on iPhone/iPad. The Apple AppStore demands that all applications are ONLY distributed over the AppStore and that conflicts with our open source license which demands that no-one should limit anyone in distributing our piece of software in any way you like. We certainly would like to see it running on iOS devices too, but unless Apples lifts this restriction there is not much that we can do about it... Sorry!"
> > Source: http://forum.xcsoar.org/viewtopic.php?t=230

There are dozens of apps for the iOS which do this in the background - so clearly is possible.

[Surge]

On Sunday, 3 May 2015 16:02:53 UTC+2, Karl Kunz wrote:
> Since the XCsoar site sends Android users to Google Play to get the software, why do they have a problem with the AppStore. This is just the way that programs are installed on these devices(iOS) and it seems that XCsoar is being MORE restrictive by not allowing one operating system access to an "open source" app.

The GPL License is incompatible with many application-distribution-systems, like the Mac App Store, and certain other software distribution platforms (on smartphones as well as PCs). The problem lies in the right "To make a copy for your neighbour", as this right is violated by the integrated DRM-Systems made to prevent copying of paid software.

The reason that the Mac App Store (and similar projects) is incompatible with GPL-licensed apps is not inherent in the concept of an app store, but is rather specifically due to Apple's terms-of-use requirement[105] that all apps in the store utilize Apple DRM-restrictions.

More details at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License#Legal_barrier_to_app_st ores

I fail to see how XCSoar is being "more" restrictive when Apple is the one throwing the spanner in the works due to their draconian licensing regime.
You're free to download XCSoar source code and port/cross compile it for iOS if you want to.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 8:29:37 AM UTC+3, Surge wrote:
> The GPL License is incompatible with many application-distribution-systems, like the Mac App Store, and certain other software distribution platforms (on smartphones as well as PCs). The problem lies in the right "To make a copy for your neighbour", as this right is violated by the integrated DRM-Systems made to prevent copying of paid software.

That may be the FSF's line, but it is not correct.

Nothing restricts you from putting your app in the Mac App Store and also distributing it in other ways (e.g. from your own web site) without DRM. Many apps do this e.g. BBEdit

Nothing restricts you from making the source code of a Mac App Store app available, which also preserves the "free as in speech" demands of the GPL. Anyone is free to get a developer subscription and xCode and compile the source code themselves. (applies also to iOS app store).

[Sean Fidler]

Indeed.

[Dan Marotta]

Well, then, why doesn't someone who's a competent programmer and who
likes Apple products just do it?

On 5/4/2015 3:42 AM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 8:29:37 AM UTC+3, Surge wrote:
>> The GPL License is incompatible with many application-distribution-systems, like the Mac App Store, and certain other software distribution platforms (on smartphones as well as PCs). The problem lies in the right "To make a copy for your neighbour", as this right is violated by the integrated DRM-Systems made to prevent copying of paid software.
> That may be the FSF's line, but it is not correct.
>
> Nothing restricts you from putting your app in the Mac App Store and also distributing it in other ways (e.g. from your own web site) without DRM. Many apps do this e.g. BBEdit
>
> Nothing restricts you from making the source code of a Mac App Store app available, which also preserves the "free as in speech" demands of the GPL. Anyone is free to get a developer subscription and xCode and compile the source code themselves. (applies also to iOS app store).

--
Dan Marotta

[Karl Kunz[_2_]]

The problem with the iOS devices is there is not a good daylight readable option.


On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 7:34:51 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Well, then, why doesn't someone who's a competent programmer and who
> likes Apple products just do it?
>
>
>
>
> On 5/4/2015 3:42 AM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 8:29:37 AM UTC+3, Surge wrote:
>
>
> The GPL License is incompatible with many application-distribution-systems, like the Mac App Store, and certain other software distribution platforms (on smartphones as well as PCs). The problem lies in the right "To make a copy for your neighbour", as this right is violated by the integrated DRM-Systems made to prevent copying of paid software.
>
>
> That may be the FSF's line, but it is not correct.
>
> Nothing restricts you from putting your app in the Mac App Store and also distributing it in other ways (e.g. from your own web site) without DRM. Many apps do this e.g. BBEdit
>
> Nothing restricts you from making the source code of a Mac App Store app available, which also preserves the "free as in speech" demands of the GPL. Anyone is free to get a developer subscription and xCode and compile the source code themselves. (applies also to iOS app store).
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

[jfitch]

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 8:38:19 AM UTC-7, Karl Kunz wrote:
> The problem with the iOS devices is there is not a good daylight readable option.
>
>
> On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 7:34:51 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Well, then, why doesn't someone who's a competent programmer and who
> > likes Apple products just do it?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/4/2015 3:42 AM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 8:29:37 AM UTC+3, Surge wrote:
> >
> >
> > The GPL License is incompatible with many application-distribution-systems, like the Mac App Store, and certain other software distribution platforms (on smartphones as well as PCs). The problem lies in the right "To make a copy for your neighbour", as this right is violated by the integrated DRM-Systems made to prevent copying of paid software.
> >
> >
> > That may be the FSF's line, but it is not correct.
> >
> > Nothing restricts you from putting your app in the Mac App Store and also distributing it in other ways (e.g. from your own web site) without DRM. Many apps do this e.g. BBEdit
> >
> > Nothing restricts you from making the source code of a Mac App Store app available, which also preserves the "free as in speech" demands of the GPL. Anyone is free to get a developer subscription and xCode and compile the source code themselves. (applies also to iOS app store).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Dan Marotta

Actually I find the iPhone 6+ to be more readable than an Oudie/Avier/V2 in any light at any angle. I own both.

[Sean Fidler]

Same here. iPhone 6 and the Galaxy Note 4 are far, far (the two smartphones that I use), better than the now ancient Oudie in literally every conceivable form of measure other than raw brightness. Thee difference in total brightness is very small now with the latest smartphones. SeeYou is so outdated that its almost comical. It truly pains me to use an Oudie when the far better devices are in the pocket of my glider (still illegal to use them in the USA although that might be evolving soon...).

[jfitch]

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 7:36:50 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Same here. iPhone 6 and the Galaxy Note 4 are far, far (the two smartphones that I use), better than the now ancient Oudie in literally every conceivable form of measure other than raw brightness. Thee difference in total brightness is very small now with the latest smartphones. SeeYou is so outdated that its almost comical. It truly pains me to use an Oudie when the far better devices are in the pocket of my glider (still illegal to use them in the USA although that might be evolving soon...).

Only illegal to use them with the cell transmitter on, and then only for obsolete reasons. "could result in suspension of service and/or a fine" - does anyone know of a fine that has been paid? If you carry a cell phone in your glider you realize you have to have the regulations posted on or near each cell phone...

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 8:26:23 AM UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
> On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 7:36:50 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > Same here. iPhone 6 and the Galaxy Note 4 are far, far (the two smartphones that I use), better than the now ancient Oudie in literally every conceivable form of measure other than raw brightness. Thee difference in total brightness is very small now with the latest smartphones. SeeYou is so outdated that its almost comical. It truly pains me to use an Oudie when the far better devices are in the pocket of my glider (still illegal to use them in the USA although that might be evolving soon...).
>
> Only illegal to use them with the cell transmitter on, and then only for obsolete reasons. "could result in suspension of service and/or a fine" - does anyone know of a fine that has been paid? If you carry a cell phone in your glider you realize you have to have the regulations posted on or near each cell phone...

Oh! It's a FCC regulation, not an FAA one?

In NZ it's always been common for pilots to use their mobile phones. Very often you can be shadowed from air traffic control transponders by mountains (or simply distance and lack of radio power) and ATC doesn't even blink when a pilot phones them in-flight with a position report or query.

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 12:28:48 AM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 8:26:23 AM UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
> > On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 7:36:50 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > > Same here. iPhone 6 and the Galaxy Note 4 are far, far (the two smartphones that I use), better than the now ancient Oudie in literally every conceivable form of measure other than raw brightness. Thee difference in total brightness is very small now with the latest smartphones. SeeYou is so outdated that its almost comical. It truly pains me to use an Oudie when the far better devices are in the pocket of my glider (still illegal to use them in the USA although that might be evolving soon...).
> >
> > Only illegal to use them with the cell transmitter on, and then only for obsolete reasons. "could result in suspension of service and/or a fine" - does anyone know of a fine that has been paid? If you carry a cell phone in your glider you realize you have to have the regulations posted on or near each cell phone...
>
> Oh! It's a FCC regulation, not an FAA one?
>
> In NZ it's always been common for pilots to use their mobile phones. Very often you can be shadowed from air traffic control transponders by mountains (or simply distance and lack of radio power) and ATC doesn't even blink when a pilot phones them in-flight with a position report or query.

Yes, FCC, at the request of the network operators, from 20 years ago when there were technical problems with too many towers in range and speeds exceeding the handoff assumptions.

[Dan Marotta]

As a retired engineer I recall the old wisdom that "better is the enemy
of good enough".

My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the same
information that your systems do though it does not bring me a
cappuccino and massage my shoulders while I fly... Sure the new
products are great, calling what works comical is simply snobbish.

On 5/4/2015 8:36 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Same here. iPhone 6 and the Galaxy Note 4 are far, far (the two smartphones that I use), better than the now ancient Oudie in literally every conceivable form of measure other than raw brightness. Thee difference in total brightness is very small now with the latest smartphones. SeeYou is so outdated that its almost comical. It truly pains me to use an Oudie when the far better devices are in the pocket of my glider (still illegal to use them in the USA although that might be evolving soon...).

--
Dan Marotta

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 8:20:09 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> As a retired engineer I recall the old wisdom that "better is the
> enemy of good enough".
>
>
>
> My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the
> same information that your systems do though it does not bring me a
> cappuccino and massage my shoulders while I fly...* Sure the new
> products are great, calling what works comical is simply snobbish.
>
>
>
>
> On 5/4/2015 8:36 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
>
>
>
> Same here. iPhone 6 and the Galaxy Note 4 are far, far (the two smartphones that I use), better than the now ancient Oudie in literally every conceivable form of measure other than raw brightness. Thee difference in total brightness is very small now with the latest smartphones. SeeYou is so outdated that its almost comical. It truly pains me to use an Oudie when the far better devices are in the pocket of my glider (still illegal to use them in the USA although that might be evolving soon...).
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

"My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the same information that your systems do" Well, - in a word - No. There is no doubt that it costs a lot to approach perfect, but I could as easily say that I can get the same information from a pellet variometer and a sectional chart as you get on your Dell Streak. Yet the discerning person notices a difference.

[[email protected]]

Ok, so how about listing a few bullet points of the things that you can do on your iOS device (running what SW package?) that can't be done on Android running XCsoar? This isn't an attempt to be argumentative - I'd really just like to understand why one is or isn't better than (or equivalent to) the other.

Robert

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 1:11:12 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 8:20:09 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > As a retired engineer I recall the old wisdom that "better is the
> > enemy of good enough".
> >
> >
> >
> > My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the
> > same information that your systems do though it does not bring me a
> > cappuccino and massage my shoulders while I fly...* Sure the new
> > products are great, calling what works comical is simply snobbish.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/4/2015 8:36 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Same here. iPhone 6 and the Galaxy Note 4 are far, far (the two smartphones that I use), better than the now ancient Oudie in literally every conceivable form of measure other than raw brightness. Thee difference in total brightness is very small now with the latest smartphones. SeeYou is so outdated that its almost comical. It truly pains me to use an Oudie when the far better devices are in the pocket of my glider (still illegal to use them in the USA although that might be evolving soon...).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Dan Marotta
>
> "My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the same information that your systems do" Well, - in a word - No. There is no doubt that it costs a lot to approach perfect, but I could as easily say that I can get the same information from a pellet variometer and a sectional chart as you get on your Dell Streak. Yet the discerning person notices a difference.

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 12:11:56 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Ok, so how about listing a few bullet points of the things that you can do on your iOS device (running what SW package?) that can't be done on Android running XCsoar? This isn't an attempt to be argumentative - I'd really just like to understand why one is or isn't better than (or equivalent to) the other.
>
> Robert
>
> On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 1:11:12 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 8:20:09 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > As a retired engineer I recall the old wisdom that "better is the
> > > enemy of good enough".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the
> > > same information that your systems do though it does not bring me a
> > > cappuccino and massage my shoulders while I fly...* Sure the new
> > > products are great, calling what works comical is simply snobbish..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5/4/2015 8:36 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Same here. iPhone 6 and the Galaxy Note 4 are far, far (the two smartphones that I use), better than the now ancient Oudie in literally every conceivable form of measure other than raw brightness. Thee difference in total brightness is very small now with the latest smartphones. SeeYou is so outdated that its almost comical. It truly pains me to use an Oudie when the far better devices are in the pocket of my glider (still illegal to use them in the USA although that might be evolving soon...).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Dan Marotta
> >
> > "My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the same information that your systems do" Well, - in a word - No. There is no doubt that it costs a lot to approach perfect, but I could as easily say that I can get the same information from a pellet variometer and a sectional chart as you get on your Dell Streak. Yet the discerning person notices a difference.

Without being argumentative, give me a list of bullet points that you can do on XCSoar that can't be done with a printed chart and a slide rule.

None of these give you anything you could not have gotten before, they just do so with less pilot workload. The elegance of a superior UI is not easily distilled to bullet points. I have used both XCSoar and iGlide (iOS) for the last two years in about equal amounts. Anything you routinely do on XCSoar is more quickly accomplished (usually much more quickly) with less user attention on iGlide. In this regard SYM is a distant third. Actually standing second is Winpilot with a better UI than XCSoar or SYM even 15 years old - but it is no longer maintained so not in the running. If you put two pilots side by side and have them do some routine task on the PDA, while counting gliders flying by the canopy, you will see a big difference. An example might be adding a turnpoint between TP3 and TP4 in a task. How many click does that take you on XCSoar?

I do not want to dis XCSoar in particular, the price point is great, it does an OK job compared to others, and is feature rich if you can find them. It is not a pinnacle of UI advancement however, either due to the experience of the authors or (perhaps) the constraints of having to make it work on highly disparate hardware. I do dis SYM a bit, really no excuse for them - but of course SY itself is pretty much the same train wreck of UI, so it's inbred.

I will give you one bullet point for the iGlide/Air Vario combination that you cannot do on anything else though: instantaneous wind presented each second around your thermal circle. Which is surprisingly (maybe even alarmingly) useful.

[[email protected]]

Hey, I'll post my favorite whine about most of the current packages.
I used SoarPilot a lot up until a few years ago, when I finally got
fed up with the crappy Palm connectors. However, SoarPilot gave you
final glide information in a table, showing the arrival height (or
glidepath delta) and target speeds for a range of MC settings.
It gave me a better indication as to how much cushion I had in my
glide. The little green/red arrows in XCSoar and SYM tell you that
you can make it, but you don't have any feel for what running into
some sink will do to you.

Matt

[Dan Marotta]

Inserting a turnpoint into a task on XCSoar: IIRC, touch the turnpoint
on the map, press "Insert into task" from the pop up. That'll insert the
TP between my present location and the next TP. If it must be between
TP2 and TP3, I can simply wait until passing TP2 before touching the
desired TP.

As to daily use, I fly mainly tours out to 100 miles or so from the
airport rather than predefined tasks. Having said that, I rarely touch
my Streak as it always shows the information that I want to see. I
programmed these selections on the ground about 4 years ago and they
still suit my needs.

The fact that Winpilot is no longer maintained is of no consequence. If
it worked back then and wasn't "maintained", it'll still work just the
same way. Of course, it hasn't been "improved" but so what? People set
world records using that package as they will using what you're using today.


On 5/5/2015 2:59 PM, jfitch wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 12:11:56 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>> Ok, so how about listing a few bullet points of the things that you can do on your iOS device (running what SW package?) that can't be done on Android running XCsoar? This isn't an attempt to be argumentative - I'd really just like to understand why one is or isn't better than (or equivalent to) the other.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 1:11:12 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 8:20:09 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> As a retired engineer I recall the old wisdom that "better is the
>>>> enemy of good enough".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the
>>>> same information that your systems do though it does not bring me a
>>>> cappuccino and massage my shoulders while I fly... Sure the new
>>>> products are great, calling what works comical is simply snobbish.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/4/2015 8:36 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Same here. iPhone 6 and the Galaxy Note 4 are far, far (the two smartphones that I use), better than the now ancient Oudie in literally every conceivable form of measure other than raw brightness. Thee difference in total brightness is very small now with the latest smartphones. SeeYou is so outdated that its almost comical. It truly pains me to use an Oudie when the far better devices are in the pocket of my glider (still illegal to use them in the USA although that might be evolving soon...).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Dan Marotta
>>> "My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the same information that your systems do" Well, - in a word - No. There is no doubt that it costs a lot to approach perfect, but I could as easily say that I can get the same information from a pellet variometer and a sectional chart as you get on your Dell Streak. Yet the discerning person notices a difference.
> Without being argumentative, give me a list of bullet points that you can do on XCSoar that can't be done with a printed chart and a slide rule.
>
> None of these give you anything you could not have gotten before, they just do so with less pilot workload. The elegance of a superior UI is not easily distilled to bullet points. I have used both XCSoar and iGlide (iOS) for the last two years in about equal amounts. Anything you routinely do on XCSoar is more quickly accomplished (usually much more quickly) with less user attention on iGlide. In this regard SYM is a distant third. Actually standing second is Winpilot with a better UI than XCSoar or SYM even 15 years old - but it is no longer maintained so not in the running. If you put two pilots side by side and have them do some routine task on the PDA, while counting gliders flying by the canopy, you will see a big difference. An example might be adding a turnpoint between TP3 and TP4 in a task. How many click does that take you on XCSoar?
>
> I do not want to dis XCSoar in particular, the price point is great, it does an OK job compared to others, and is feature rich if you can find them. It is not a pinnacle of UI advancement however, either due to the experience of the authors or (perhaps) the constraints of having to make it work on highly disparate hardware. I do dis SYM a bit, really no excuse for them - but of course SY itself is pretty much the same train wreck of UI, so it's inbred.
>
> I will give you one bullet point for the iGlide/Air Vario combination that you cannot do on anything else though: instantaneous wind presented each second around your thermal circle. Which is surprisingly (maybe even alarmingly) useful.

--
Dan Marotta

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 5:14:30 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Inserting a turnpoint into a task on XCSoar:* IIRC, touch the
> turnpoint on the map, press "Insert into task" from the pop up.*
> That'll insert the TP between my present location and the next TP.*
> If it must be between TP2 and TP3, I can simply wait until passing
> TP2 before touching the desired TP.
>
>
>
> As to daily use, I fly mainly tours out to 100 miles or so from the
> airport rather than predefined tasks.* Having said that, I rarely
> touch my Streak as it always shows the information that I want to
> see.* I programmed these selections on the ground about 4 years ago
> and they still suit my needs.
>
>
>
> The fact that Winpilot is no longer maintained is of no
> consequence.* If it worked back then and wasn't "maintained", it'll
> still work just the same way.* Of course, it hasn't been "improved"
> but so what?* People set world records using that package as they
> will using what you're using today.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/5/2015 2:59 PM, jfitch wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 12:11:56 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
>
> Ok, so how about listing a few bullet points of the things that you can do on your iOS device (running what SW package?) that can't be done on Android running XCsoar? This isn't an attempt to be argumentative - I'd really just like to understand why one is or isn't better than (or equivalent to) the other.
>
> Robert
>
> On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 1:11:12 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
>
>
> On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 8:20:09 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>
> As a retired engineer I recall the old wisdom that "better is the
> enemy of good enough".
>
>
>
> My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the
> same information that your systems do though it does not bring me a
> cappuccino and massage my shoulders while I fly...* Sure the new
> products are great, calling what works comical is simply snobbish.
>
>
>
>
> On 5/4/2015 8:36 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
>
>
>
> Same here. iPhone 6 and the Galaxy Note 4 are far, far (the two smartphones that I use), better than the now ancient Oudie in literally every conceivable form of measure other than raw brightness. Thee difference in total brightness is very small now with the latest smartphones. SeeYou is so outdated that its almost comical. It truly pains me to use an Oudie when the far better devices are in the pocket of my glider (still illegal to use them in the USA although that might be evolving soon...).
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta
>
>
> "My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the same information that your systems do" Well, - in a word - No. There is no doubt that it costs a lot to approach perfect, but I could as easily say that I can get the same information from a pellet variometer and a sectional chart as you get on your Dell Streak. Yet the discerning person notices a difference.
>
>
>
> Without being argumentative, give me a list of bullet points that you can do on XCSoar that can't be done with a printed chart and a slide rule.
>
> None of these give you anything you could not have gotten before, they just do so with less pilot workload. The elegance of a superior UI is not easily distilled to bullet points. I have used both XCSoar and iGlide (iOS) for the last two years in about equal amounts. Anything you routinely do on XCSoar is more quickly accomplished (usually much more quickly) with less user attention on iGlide. In this regard SYM is a distant third. Actually standing second is Winpilot with a better UI than XCSoar or SYM even 15 years old - but it is no longer maintained so not in the running. If you put two pilots side by side and have them do some routine task on the PDA, while counting gliders flying by the canopy, you will see a big difference. An example might be adding a turnpoint between TP3 and TP4 in a task. How many click does that take you on XCSoar?
>
> I do not want to dis XCSoar in particular, the price point is great, it does an OK job compared to others, and is feature rich if you can find them. It is not a pinnacle of UI advancement however, either due to the experience of the authors or (perhaps) the constraints of having to make it work on highly disparate hardware. I do dis SYM a bit, really no excuse for them - but of course SY itself is pretty much the same train wreck of UI, so it's inbred.
>
> I will give you one bullet point for the iGlide/Air Vario combination that you cannot do on anything else though: instantaneous wind presented each second around your thermal circle. Which is surprisingly (maybe even alarmingly) useful.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

Right on, Dan. Flying with WinPilot Pro on an Avier I'm not missing any hand-holding and "support". It still works as good as it did back then.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 4:55:07 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Hey, I'll post my favorite whine about most of the current packages.
> I used SoarPilot a lot up until a few years ago, when I finally got
> fed up with the crappy Palm connectors. However, SoarPilot gave you
> final glide information in a table, showing the arrival height (or
> glidepath delta) and target speeds for a range of MC settings.
> It gave me a better indication as to how much cushion I had in my
> glide. The little green/red arrows in XCSoar and SYM tell you that
> you can make it, but you don't have any feel for what running into
> some sink will do to you.
>
> Matt

Hi Matt,

I'm with you on the SoarPilot. I miss that final glide table. That was a VERY useful feature. I stopped using SoarPilot last year and switched over to Tophat(XCSoar derivative for those who may not know) on the Kobo ereader. The eInk displays beat anything out there for sunlight readability. Tophat is simple and reasonably intuitive. Easiest system so far to set up, both hardware and software. So far it does everything I want. It has the one feature that was missing from SoarPilot - being able to select a waypoint by touching it on the screen.

To keep this on topic: iGlide and IOS based soaring software interests me, but until the sunlight readability of screens on the smart phones and tablets (of any OS) get better, I'm gonna stay with my Kobo.

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 8:47:51 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 5:14:30 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Inserting a turnpoint into a task on XCSoar:* IIRC, touch the
> > turnpoint on the map, press "Insert into task" from the pop up.*
> > That'll insert the TP between my present location and the next TP.*
> > If it must be between TP2 and TP3, I can simply wait until passing
> > TP2 before touching the desired TP.
> >
> >
> >
> > As to daily use, I fly mainly tours out to 100 miles or so from the
> > airport rather than predefined tasks.* Having said that, I rarely
> > touch my Streak as it always shows the information that I want to
> > see.* I programmed these selections on the ground about 4 years ago
> > and they still suit my needs.
> >
> >
> >
> > The fact that Winpilot is no longer maintained is of no
> > consequence.* If it worked back then and wasn't "maintained", it'll
> > still work just the same way.* Of course, it hasn't been "improved"
> > but so what?* People set world records using that package as they
> > will using what you're using today.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/5/2015 2:59 PM, jfitch wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 12:11:56 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ok, so how about listing a few bullet points of the things that you can do on your iOS device (running what SW package?) that can't be done on Android running XCsoar? This isn't an attempt to be argumentative - I'd really just like to understand why one is or isn't better than (or equivalent to) the other.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 1:11:12 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 8:20:09 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >
> >
> > As a retired engineer I recall the old wisdom that "better is the
> > enemy of good enough".
> >
> >
> >
> > My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the
> > same information that your systems do though it does not bring me a
> > cappuccino and massage my shoulders while I fly...* Sure the new
> > products are great, calling what works comical is simply snobbish.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/4/2015 8:36 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Same here. iPhone 6 and the Galaxy Note 4 are far, far (the two smartphones that I use), better than the now ancient Oudie in literally every conceivable form of measure other than raw brightness. Thee difference in total brightness is very small now with the latest smartphones. SeeYou is so outdated that its almost comical. It truly pains me to use an Oudie when the far better devices are in the pocket of my glider (still illegal to use them in the USA although that might be evolving soon...).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Dan Marotta
> >
> >
> > "My ancient Dell Streak 5 ($100) running XCSoar (free!) gives me the same information that your systems do" Well, - in a word - No. There is no doubt that it costs a lot to approach perfect, but I could as easily say that I can get the same information from a pellet variometer and a sectional chart as you get on your Dell Streak. Yet the discerning person notices a difference.
> >
> >
> >
> > Without being argumentative, give me a list of bullet points that you can do on XCSoar that can't be done with a printed chart and a slide rule.
> >
> > None of these give you anything you could not have gotten before, they just do so with less pilot workload. The elegance of a superior UI is not easily distilled to bullet points. I have used both XCSoar and iGlide (iOS) for the last two years in about equal amounts. Anything you routinely do on XCSoar is more quickly accomplished (usually much more quickly) with less user attention on iGlide. In this regard SYM is a distant third. Actually standing second is Winpilot with a better UI than XCSoar or SYM even 15 years old - but it is no longer maintained so not in the running. If you put two pilots side by side and have them do some routine task on the PDA, while counting gliders flying by the canopy, you will see a big difference. An example might be adding a turnpoint between TP3 and TP4 in a task. How many click does that take you on XCSoar?
> >
> > I do not want to dis XCSoar in particular, the price point is great, it does an OK job compared to others, and is feature rich if you can find them. It is not a pinnacle of UI advancement however, either due to the experience of the authors or (perhaps) the constraints of having to make it work on highly disparate hardware. I do dis SYM a bit, really no excuse for them - but of course SY itself is pretty much the same train wreck of UI, so it's inbred.
> >
> > I will give you one bullet point for the iGlide/Air Vario combination that you cannot do on anything else though: instantaneous wind presented each second around your thermal circle. Which is surprisingly (maybe even alarmingly) useful.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Dan Marotta
>
> Right on, Dan. Flying with WinPilot Pro on an Avier I'm not missing any hand-holding and "support". It still works as good as it did back then.

The theory that "if it works it will continue" to only is valid in a static system. If anything around it changes, then it may break, if unsupported it stays broken. There are a number of bugs in the Avier version of Winpilot that will never be fixed. Too bad, because it several areas (such as its thermal assistant or its depiction of Flarm traffic), it still has no equal)..

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Side note: interesting that I had to purchase a PC to run gliding software data logger software etc., (I am a Mac user) but there are no programs that run on the windows mobile OS. I have an iPhone for personal and an android for business, which I hate as it is so unintuitive. I use an old Windows phone for oversea travel and generally love the phone as it is so easy to work.

[[email protected]]

I have Parallels and Win7 on my MacBook just so I can run SeeYou. USB to serial dongle works just fine for the occasional ancient flight recorder.

-Tom

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 1:45:27 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Side note: interesting that I had to purchase a PC to run gliding software data logger software etc., (I am a Mac user) but there are no programs that run on the windows mobile OS. I have an iPhone for personal and an android for business, which I hate as it is so unintuitive. I use an old Windows phone for oversea travel and generally love the phone as it is so easy to work.

[[email protected]]

Somebody started developing an app two years ago, maybe someone else can finish and publish it?

https://github.com/Turbo87/skylines-ios-tracker

[Bob Pasker]

The guy who started that project is one of the skylines.aero guys, Tobias Bieniek

https://blog.skylines.aero/


On Tuesday, May 12, 2015 at 11:33:10 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Somebody started developing an app two years ago, maybe someone else can finish and publish it?
>
> https://github.com/Turbo87/skylines-ios-tracker