Hi... and some questions from a beginner

[Johnny T]

I have been saving up for a soaring vacation for over 5 years now, and it has finally materialized and is coming up in a couple of weeks.

I am going to be spending 6 straight days in Minden - no work - maybe just a little bit of internet - and a little bit of hiking and a little bit of photography - but mostly just flying. I am super excited.

I first got the soaring bug about 20 years ago during my last semester of undergrad @North Carolina State - where I started taking lessons on the weekend and was able to accumulate about 16 hours of PIC plus two very unimpressive solo flights in a 2-33. I wasn't able to finish up because life and acceptance of a job got in the way and so I headed out west for a career. I briefly tried to fit gliding into my hectic lifestyle out there and accumulated another 10 hours or so in a L23 but never solo'd it. The L23 then suffered a slight mishap, and then a move to Truckee and I kinda lost interest.... until recently... And boy is that interest as strong as ever (and I am now back on the east coast).

So I have decided to give myself a dream vacation. I have 6 straight days of lessons at Minden in a ASK-21 - it's ok if you are jealous! Is this the right way to do it? I don't know... but being super busy, I feel like finally getting the vacation of my dreams is something I can't turn down.

1) Here is the thing... my local club (back on the east coast) uses a 2-33 as their trainer. I am a little uneasy about the transition from the K-21 back to the 2-33. I mean, I do hold some sentimental value with the 2-33, but I kinda want to move on. The club also has a Grob 103 Twin II - however, they no longer use this for training. Hmmm... Advice on this transition would be very helpful.

2) Anyone know what the average age group is on RAS? How about the average age group of the SSA?

3) What is the European equivalent of the SSA?

4) I assume south-eastern US thermalling is a completely different skill set than ridge/wave, or desert thermalling. Is soaring in the south east really that bad? I remember learning how to look for things like pig farms, asphalt parking lots, and birds circling... I guess that is what I got to learn to recognize.

5) I work in the tech industry, and thus am fascinated with the progression of tech used for soaring and sometimes the seeming "lack" of progression of tech. I have been playing around a bit with both iGlide and WinPilot - both are neat, however, I don't expect my CFI to be well versed with either of these. While learning about iGlide, I noticed the completely sexy line of Air Avionics systems and the Butterfly S vario... Then I started reading about it and noticed this really crazy part of the docs.

Something to the effect of "Note: The artificial horizon feature is not allowed for contest soaring".

Help a newbie mind understand this concept. I mean, I get it - you are not suppose to fly in clouds, however there are definitely recent incidents where pilots have been caught in clouds unexpectedly and wouldn't you think that any type of safety device would be more helpful than no safety device? Why would a AH not be allowed?

6) Anyone know what the percentage of participants in the SSA own their own glider, vs have a private partnership, vs rely on club gliders only?

Greetings, and it's good to be back (almost)

[BobW]

On 5/18/2015 11:34 PM, Johnny T wrote:

<Informative background stuff snipped...>
Congrats on reaching a point in life where your soaring itch needs scratching
again. I hope it's a blast!

> 1) Here is the thing... my local club (back on the east coast) uses a 2-33
> as their trainer. I am a little uneasy about the transition from the K-21
> back to the 2-33. I mean, I do hold some sentimental value with the 2-33,
> but I kinda want to move on. The club also has a Grob 103 Twin II -
> however, they no longer use this for training. Hmmm... Advice on this
> transition would be very helpful.
It's unclear to me to which transition you're referring, 2-33->K-21 or K-21 to
2-33. Minden's advice should-oughta be adequate for the former, while
muscle-memory (and a good dose of reflective rationalization!) will prolly
work for the latter. Obtaining your license (and the "informal but real
outside respect" accompanying it will presumably go a long way toward reducing
your club's access-restriction on G-103 training (though I'm curious why
they've evolved from where they apparently used to be in this regard...I hope
it's not because of the experience-demolished antediluvian attitude having to
do with "difficulty of teaching/learning" much more common 20 years ago in the
U.S. than now). In any event, you gotta fly what you've access to, and
maintaining a healthy philosophical attitude will be better than mentally
bemoaning the absence of perceived perfection. :)

>
> 2) Anyone know what the average age group is on RAS? How about the average
> age group of the SSA?
Prolly both in excess of 50?

>
> 3) What is the European equivalent of the SSA?
SSE? (Joke attempt, people!!!)
>
> 4) I assume south-eastern US thermalling is a completely different skill
> set than ridge/wave, or desert thermalling. Is soaring in the south east
> really that bad? I remember learning how to look for things like pig farms,
> asphalt parking lots, and birds circling... I guess that is what I got to
> learn to recognize.
If it's not yet in your library, spend some time with George Moffat's "Winning
on the Wind" and/or "Winning II". In the latter he passingly notes the high
preponderance in the U.S. of "eastern-type" sailplane pilots in the top ranks
of national/international competition results. As an eastern
born-n-raised-n-licensed glider type who moved permanently to the west with
~100 total hours (decades before "Winning II" appeared), this particular truth
was obvious to me without need for reinforcing validity from a 2-time world
champion...and it wasn't long before I began encountering a not-then-uncommon
('late '70's/early '80's) "western attitude" that any lift beneath (say)
500fpm was: pure survival desperate; not workable; not lift. Somewhat
mind-blowing, to me, it was...

How a person thinks, matters!
>
> 5) I work in the tech industry, and thus am fascinated with the progression
> of tech used for soaring and sometimes the seeming "lack" of progression of
> tech. I have been playing around a bit with both iGlide and WinPilot - both
> are neat, however, I don't expect my CFI to be well versed with either of
> these. While learning about iGlide, I noticed the completely sexy line of
> Air Avionics systems and the Butterfly S vario... Then I started reading
> about it and noticed this really crazy part of the docs.
>
> Something to the effect of "Note: The artificial horizon feature is not
> allowed for contest soaring".
>
> Help a newbie mind understand this concept. I mean, I get it - you are not
> suppose to fly in clouds, however there are definitely recent incidents
> where pilots have been caught in clouds unexpectedly and wouldn't you think
> that any type of safety device would be more helpful than no safety device?
> Why would a AH not be allowed?
I'm sure others will opine on this one! I spent most of my engineering career
in the "high-tech industry, beginning with high-end 9-track tape drives
through the evolution of hard disk drives'
creation/miniaturization/commoditization, and am neither ignorant of nor a
Luddite in the "technology arena", but definitely fall into the "less is more"
and "choose your tools wisely" schools of life philosophy. While humankind's
soaring abilities almost definitionally depend upon some level of advancing
technology, once beyond "some early minima," later technology is not
*required* in order to achieve eye-popping distances and life-enduring
satisfaction from the activity. If "the latest technology" winds your clock,
by all means go for it!!! Just don't fall into the trap of believing it's
*necessary*.
>
> 6) Anyone know what the percentage of participants in the SSA own their own
> glider, vs have a private partnership, vs rely on club gliders only?
Not I. Successfully and "satisfactionally" BTDT in each category...
>
> Greetings, and it's good to be back (almost)
Welcome to "the tribe!!!" So far, our internecine squabbles haven't resulted
in any bloodshed of which I'm aware! :)

Bob W.

[Bob Kuykendall]

You might have scheduled your vacation a bit on the early side, but you're almost certain to get a couple of good days in there.

Some random advice:

* Don't worry about learning to handle the aircraft, let that come on its own. Concentrate instead on learning to soar. Recognizing a thermal, recognizing what isn't a thermal, thermal entries and exits, soaring strategy and tactics, those are good things to learn.

* If possible, try to get some cross-country training in. Hops up to Air Sailing and beyond, or down to Bridgeport, ought to be reasonable goals.

* If you are arriving or departing for your vacation at a Bay Area airport, drop by my shop on Highway 4 on your way home. I'll show you what the inside of a sailplane wing looks like.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I am not sure George was correct about Eastern pilots being better than Western pilots. I am thinking world team pilots Bill Bartel, Gary Ittner, Chip Garner, Sean Franke, Garett Willet, Jim Payne, Texas (known for booming thermals) Ron Tabery, David Mockler with apologies for anyone not mentioned. Winter flying in the west I am happy to find a 2 knot thermal or even a one knot thermal.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

> I am not sure George was correct about Eastern pilots being better than
> Western pilots. I am thinking world team pilots Bill Bartel, Gary Ittner,
> Chip Garner, Sean Franke, Garett Willet, Jim Payne, Texas (known for
> booming thermals) Ron Tabery, David Mockler with apologies for anyone not
> mentioned. Winter flying in the west I am happy to find a 2 knot thermal or
> even a one knot thermal.
>

I blame this branch's thread drift on the O.P.'s plethora and range of initial
questions!

Yeah - one can approach this particular question from several perspectives,
ranging from the numerical to the "purely philosophical," and arguably make a
good case regardless of perspective. I think the point I was indirectly trying
to suggest was unarguably significant to a person's ability to (most rapidly)
ascend the XC learning curve, is that lift is lift, and the ability to
recognize when it makes sense to use whatever you can find (as distinct from
ignoring all but that meeting some arbitrary personal numerical definition of
"usable lift") might well come more readily to someone who's learned in a
region prone to "crud" as opposed to "booming lift." In any event, I think
I've "generally" noticed it easier for "your average eastern larnin'" to
transition to western conditions than vicey-versy.

Everyone's mileage will vary...and all generalizations are false, including
those found herein!

:)
Bob W.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 1:08:05 PM UTC-4, Bob Whelan wrote:
> > I am not sure George was correct about Eastern pilots being better than
> > Western pilots. I am thinking world team pilots Bill Bartel, Gary Ittner,
> > Chip Garner, Sean Franke, Garett Willet, Jim Payne, Texas (known for
> > booming thermals) Ron Tabery, David Mockler with apologies for anyone not
> > mentioned. Winter flying in the west I am happy to find a 2 knot thermal or
> > even a one knot thermal.
> >
>
> I blame this branch's thread drift on the O.P.'s plethora and range of initial
> questions!
>
> Yeah - one can approach this particular question from several perspectives,
> ranging from the numerical to the "purely philosophical," and arguably make a
> good case regardless of perspective. I think the point I was indirectly trying
> to suggest was unarguably significant to a person's ability to (most rapidly)
> ascend the XC learning curve, is that lift is lift, and the ability to
> recognize when it makes sense to use whatever you can find (as distinct from
> ignoring all but that meeting some arbitrary personal numerical definition of
> "usable lift") might well come more readily to someone who's learned in a
> region prone to "crud" as opposed to "booming lift." In any event, I think
> I've "generally" noticed it easier for "your average eastern larnin'" to
> transition to western conditions than vicey-versy.
>
> Everyone's mileage will vary...and all generalizations are false, including
> those found herein!
>
> :)
> Bob W.

+1, soaring is soaring, different areas will require some adjustment but the basics are the same.

Flying pretty much ANY Schleicher is similar to Schweitzers in that they have similar control harmony (which I consider to be very good in both brands overall). I have most of my time in a variety of models from both companies as well as some time in other brands.

Going from "glass" back to a 2-33 won't be hard unless you try to fly fast....... a 2-33 won't go fast (other than down fast) as it's draggy.
It is actually a good thing to fly a variety of performance ranges (like ~22:1 to 50+:1) as it helps develop "mental gear shifting".

So, do your vacation, listen & look so you can learn. Enjoy the bigger/taller thermals out west, don't be disappointed when back in the south east.
Oh, and have fun.

PS, replying back here AFTER your trip could help out others down the road with similar questions.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 8:34:18 AM UTC+3, Johnny T wrote:
> 1) Here is the thing... my local club (back on the east coast) uses a 2-33 as their trainer. I am a little uneasy about the transition from the K-21 back to the 2-33. I mean, I do hold some sentimental value with the 2-33, but I kinda want to move on. The club also has a Grob 103 Twin II - however, they no longer use this for training. Hmmm... Advice on this transition would be very helpful.

If you get some good flights and hours in with a K-21 (to the point of soloing in it, for example) then there is no reason to ever go back to the 2-33!

The Twin II and the K-21 are about as close in handling and performance as two different glider models can be. They both sit on the nose wheel with pilots aboard (unlike the original Twin Astir), so both want back stick at the start of the takeoff roll. They're both reluctant to spin. They both have about 35:1 best glide angle. The K-21 has slightly sweeter handling, but there's not much in it.

From 1995 - 2007 my club used two of the original Grob Twin Astirs for basic training, first solos etc, with no problems. The Twin II is even easier to fly (though slightly lower performance). In 2007-2008 we sold the Grobs and bought brand new DG1000's, also for basic training and first solos.

[Johnny T]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 5:54:29 AM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
> On 5/18/2015 11:34 PM, Johnny T wrote:
>
> <Informative background stuff snipped...>
> Congrats on reaching a point in life where your soaring itch needs scratching
> again. I hope it's a blast!
>
> > 1) Here is the thing... my local club (back on the east coast) uses a 2-33
> > as their trainer. I am a little uneasy about the transition from the K-21
> > back to the 2-33. I mean, I do hold some sentimental value with the 2-33,
> > but I kinda want to move on. The club also has a Grob 103 Twin II -
> > however, they no longer use this for training. Hmmm... Advice on this
> > transition would be very helpful.
> It's unclear to me to which transition you're referring, 2-33->K-21 or K-21 to
> 2-33. Minden's advice should-oughta be adequate for the former, while
> muscle-memory (and a good dose of reflective rationalization!) will prolly
> work for the latter. Obtaining your license (and the "informal but real
> outside respect" accompanying it will presumably go a long way toward reducing
> your club's access-restriction on G-103 training (though I'm curious why
> they've evolved from where they apparently used to be in this regard...I hope
> it's not because of the experience-demolished antediluvian attitude having to
> do with "difficulty of teaching/learning" much more common 20 years ago in the
> U.S. than now). In any event, you gotta fly what you've access to, and
> maintaining a healthy philosophical attitude will be better than mentally
> bemoaning the absence of perceived perfection. :)
>

The transition I am most worried about is K-21->2-33. Being that my previous gliding experience was > 20 years ago, I am not really counting any of that experience. I feel like I am starting from scratch with maybe a little bit of head-start.

I guess it will all depend on how much I progress during my week in Minden and whether I can find any instructors at my local willing to teach on the Grob. We'll see, and I will update once this becomes more clear.


> > 3) What is the European equivalent of the SSA?
> SSE? (Joke attempt, people!!!)

Not really a joke... Is there no promotional / liaison organization in Europe like the SSA? Would that be FAI?

I am simply interested in checking out how things are promoted in other areas besides the US.



> > Something to the effect of "Note: The artificial horizon feature is not
> > allowed for contest soaring".
> >

I still don't understand why an AH is disallowed for contests?

> Bob W.

Thanks for the feedback. My brain is currently in sponge mode absorbing everything it can find.

[Johnny T]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 8:08:39 AM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> You might have scheduled your vacation a bit on the early side, but you're almost certain to get a couple of good days in there.
>
> Some random advice:
>
> * Don't worry about learning to handle the aircraft, let that come on its own. Concentrate instead on learning to soar. Recognizing a thermal, recognizing what isn't a thermal, thermal entries and exits, soaring strategy and tactics, those are good things to learn.
>
> * If possible, try to get some cross-country training in. Hops up to Air Sailing and beyond, or down to Bridgeport, ought to be reasonable goals.
>
> * If you are arriving or departing for your vacation at a Bay Area airport, drop by my shop on Highway 4 on your way home. I'll show you what the inside of a sailplane wing looks like.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.


Even if the weather is not ideal in Minden, most of the early instruction anyway is nothing but up and down - rinse and repeat. I do hope to get a taste of some higher altitude and ridge stuff - but mostly I expect just your basic intro training - stall recognition, shallow turns, medium turns, speed maintenance, how to land and not make the crew not have to walk a 1/2mile to retrieve the plane, etc.... all the basic stuff.

[Johnny T]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 11:35:10 AM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 8:34:18 AM UTC+3, Johnny T wrote:
> > 1) Here is the thing... my local club (back on the east coast) uses a 2-33 as their trainer. I am a little uneasy about the transition from the K-21 back to the 2-33. I mean, I do hold some sentimental value with the 2-33, but I kinda want to move on. The club also has a Grob 103 Twin II - however, they no longer use this for training. Hmmm... Advice on this transition would be very helpful.
>
> If you get some good flights and hours in with a K-21 (to the point of soloing in it, for example) then there is no reason to ever go back to the 2-33!
>

Thanks for the feedback... That is what I am hoping as well.

> The Twin II and the K-21 are about as close in handling and performance as two different glider models can be. They both sit on the nose wheel with pilots aboard (unlike the original Twin Astir), so both want back stick at the start of the takeoff roll. They're both reluctant to spin. They both have about 35:1 best glide angle. The K-21 has slightly sweeter handling, but there's not much in it.
>

Good to know.

> From 1995 - 2007 my club used two of the original Grob Twin Astirs for basic training, first solos etc, with no problems. The Twin II is even easier to fly (though slightly lower performance). In 2007-2008 we sold the Grobs and bought brand new DG1000's, also for basic training and first solos.

Sounds nice.

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 2:53:01 PM UTC-4, Johnny T wrote:

> I still don't understand why an AH is disallowed for contests?

This was the mechanism by which the cloud flying prohibition was enforced in contests for about a half a century. Obviously, in the age of smart phones with gyros and AH apps, the prohibition on AH instruments is no longer enforceable.

Oh, and btw: you aren't "supposed to stay out of clouds", you are supposed to stay VFR. Big difference! If you make an honest effort to stay VFR and are willing to park when you can't, I predict you'll never get enveloped in cloud.

T8

[PBA]

Good on you for doing 5 straight days of training flights. You are already thinking like a good pilot.

K-21 to 2-33 is akin to stepping down from a BMW 5 series to a Volvo station wagon with no power steering. You will be fine.
Learning to soar on a 2-33 is a unique American experience and should not be missed.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 12:53:01 PM UTC-6, Johnny T wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 5:54:29 AM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
> > On 5/18/2015 11:34 PM, Johnny T wrote:
> >
> > <Informative background stuff snipped...>
> > Congrats on reaching a point in life where your soaring itch needs scratching
> > again. I hope it's a blast!
> >
> > > 1) Here is the thing... my local club (back on the east coast) uses a 2-33
> > > as their trainer. I am a little uneasy about the transition from the K-21
> > > back to the 2-33. I mean, I do hold some sentimental value with the 2-33,
> > > but I kinda want to move on. The club also has a Grob 103 Twin II -
> > > however, they no longer use this for training. Hmmm... Advice on this
> > > transition would be very helpful.
> > It's unclear to me to which transition you're referring, 2-33->K-21 or K-21 to
> > 2-33. Minden's advice should-oughta be adequate for the former, while
> > muscle-memory (and a good dose of reflective rationalization!) will prolly
> > work for the latter. Obtaining your license (and the "informal but real
> > outside respect" accompanying it will presumably go a long way toward reducing
> > your club's access-restriction on G-103 training (though I'm curious why
> > they've evolved from where they apparently used to be in this regard...I hope
> > it's not because of the experience-demolished antediluvian attitude having to
> > do with "difficulty of teaching/learning" much more common 20 years ago in the
> > U.S. than now). In any event, you gotta fly what you've access to, and
> > maintaining a healthy philosophical attitude will be better than mentally
> > bemoaning the absence of perceived perfection. :)
> >
>
> The transition I am most worried about is K-21->2-33. Being that my previous gliding experience was > 20 years ago, I am not really counting any of that experience. I feel like I am starting from scratch with maybe a little bit of head-start.
>
> I guess it will all depend on how much I progress during my week in Minden and whether I can find any instructors at my local willing to teach on the Grob. We'll see, and I will update once this becomes more clear.
>
>
> > > 3) What is the European equivalent of the SSA?
> > SSE? (Joke attempt, people!!!)
>
> Not really a joke... Is there no promotional / liaison organization in Europe like the SSA? Would that be FAI?
>
> I am simply interested in checking out how things are promoted in other areas besides the US.
>
>
>
> > > Something to the effect of "Note: The artificial horizon feature is not
> > > allowed for contest soaring".
> > >
>
> I still don't understand why an AH is disallowed for contests?
>
> > Bob W.
>
> Thanks for the feedback. My brain is currently in sponge mode absorbing everything it can find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_gliding_associations

Permissible cloud flying in gliders and competitions has varied by country for several years. Banning A/H or even Bohli compasses is required for comps in some regions. https://www.ssa.org/files/member/1972%20WGC.pdf is one report on the 1972 WGC, one mid-air and one fatal. Cloud flying in WGC contests was banned after this. You can fly IFR in gliders if you are rated, current, and properly equipped, just not in contests.

Frank Whiteley

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Tue, 19 May 2015 18:29:01 -0700, PBA wrote:

> Good on you for doing 5 straight days of training flights. You are
> already thinking like a good pilot.
>
> K-21 to 2-33 is akin to stepping down from a BMW 5 series to a Volvo
> station wagon with no power steering. You will be fine.
> Learning to soar on a 2-33 is a unique American experience and should
> not be missed.

I learned to fly in an all-glass fleet (ASK-21, Grob G103 Acro II,
Puchacz) on a winch. I only got my aero tow sign-off a year after I'd
soloed shortly before visiting the USAian right side, getting my US
license grandfathered in at Denver and doing the biannual checks at
Boulder. I had no trouble with flying a 2-33 at Avenal, though its
possible that some familiarity with our club's Slingsby T21b may have
helped.

Flying the 2-33 was certainly a unique experience, just a bit different
from the gliders I was used to, especially its 'interesting' cockpit
ergonomics.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Bob Pasker]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 1:34:18 AM UTC-4, Johnny T wrote:

> So I have decided to give myself a dream vacation. I have 6 straight days of lessons at Minden in a ASK-21 - it's ok if you are jealous! Is this the right way to do it? I don't know... but being super busy, I feel like finally getting the vacation of my dreams is something I can't turn down.
>
> 1) Here is the thing... my local club (back on the east coast) uses a 2-33 as their trainer. I am a little uneasy about the transition from the K-21 back to the 2-33. I mean, I do hold some sentimental value with the 2-33, but I kinda want to move on. The club also has a Grob 103 Twin II - however, they no longer use this for training. Hmmm... Advice on this transition would be very helpful.

i've done most of my glider training in multi-day trips as well (including Minden, which is outstanding), in the K-21, Grob-103, and LET-23, but finished up and took the commercial checkride in the 2-33. All of the checkride flying will be very close to the airport, so glide ratio/performance isn't much of a consideration. That being said, the examiner asked me to make back-to-back left and right 720 steep turns, the last of which left me below where I needed to enter the pattern, so shame on me, but he didn't bust me for it because I called it out (even though I should not have made the last 360). The moral is, even if you're within easy gliding distance of the airport, you still have watch the sink in a low-performance plane.

--b

[son_of_flubber]

> On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 1:34:18 AM UTC-4, Johnny T wrote:

> I am a little uneasy about the transition from the K-21 back to the 2-33. I mean, I do hold some sentimental value with the 2-33, but I kinda want to move on.

Some insurance underwriters quantify in dollars the risk of transitioning from a low performance to high performance glider and vice-versa (from a high performance to low performance). Gliders are classified high/low by the glide ratio (above/below 35 or so).

If for example, you have all of your flights in a low performance club glider, and then you want to buy and insure a high performance glider, you will pay an increased premium until you have logged a certain number of hours in high performance gliders.

But the curious thing is that transitioning from high to low, you may pay an extra premium until you log enough hours in the low performance glider.

While the premium differential was symmetrical (for dollar of insured value_ when I got my insurance quote, some of the risks are different. For example, when transitioning from low to high, you might land long. Whereas transitioning from high to low, you might land short.

Neither one of these transitions is especially difficult as long as you obtain a CFI briefing on the plane and take the time to adapt.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 1:50:15 AM UTC+3, son_of_flubber wrote:
> While the premium differential was symmetrical (for dollar of insured value_ when I got my insurance quote, some of the risks are different. For example, when transitioning from low to high, you might land long. Whereas transitioning from high to low, you might land short.

That really shouldn't happen! Not make it back to the field at all, perhaps, but land short on finals? How?

We don't teach or think about the actual angle when flying ("that looks about right") but I'd guess that most zero wind approaches in a glider would be around an 8:1 - 10:1 glide angle. I don't know of any training glider with a worse performance than that with airbrakes closed, and every high performance glider ever certified can come down steeper than that with full airbrakes.

[son_of_flubber]

On Sunday, May 24, 2015 at 7:02:23 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 1:50:15 AM UTC+3, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Whereas transitioning from high to low, you might land short.
>
> That really shouldn't happen! Not make it back to the field at all, perhaps, but land short on finals? How?

Last year a friend, an extremely experienced pilot (in both high and low performance gliders) who flies a Ventus or the tow plane most of the time, went up in a 2-33 with a friend in the front seat. Strong headwind on landing.. Landed short in a brush cut 'safety zone'. The SGS 2-33 is infamous for poor penetration.

I agree that fundamental piloting errors should not happen. Many of the people that make them are not idiots and their experience does not inoculate them.

[[email protected]]

Don't worry about the technology, worry about the private certificate first.. You don't need any technology to get that and when you return from Minden, you'll be in the final stretch. Concentrate on the flying. (If you can't resist, buy Condor and work it out there before introducing a distraction in the cockpit)

My club teaches primary in the 2-33, then you move on to the ASK-21. As a mostly ASK-21 pilot these days, I often worry that I will 'forget' the performance difference between the two when I fly the 2-33. I haven't found it to be an issue, and doubt you will, either. Just heed the advice not to get downwind from the airport in it (it simply doesn't penetrate well) and you'll be fine.

Taking lessons in Minden in the ASK-21 will prepare you for your club's Grob when you are ready and the transition will likely be a non-issue. Going back to learning in the 2-33 isn't going to 'undo' anything you learned in the ASK-21 - both require your brain to be engaged prior to takeoff.

Welcome back and have a blast!

[Johnny T]

So I am back from my trip to Minden and it was all I could have asked for. I plan on writing up some thoughts on the experience in the coming week - what it is like getting back into flying after a 20 year break... what it is like transitioning from a 2-33 to an ASK-21... what it is like learning to fly in a tiny field vs a crazy place like Minden, etc....

For now, enjoy a couple of before/after pics:

What it was like when I arrived at Minden:

http://i.imgur.com/pkjbi5N.jpg

What it was like after a week of my east coast humidity wearing off:

http://i.imgur.com/G2upo4c.jpg