Info boxes when thermalling?

[Blake Seese 3Y]

Hello All,

I am interested in what information other pilots feel is most important when thermalling.

Thanks,

Blake 3Y

[[email protected]]

How fast I am going UP.

[Peter Purdie[_3_]]

1. What's my current average? (Last 1 or 2 turns).

2. What's my average since I started climbing?

When 1 < 2 then time to leave.

At 15:57 26 May 2015, wrote:
>How fast I am going UP.
>

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

Keep your eyes out of the cockpit and look for other gliders. Listen to the audio to center. An occasional glance at the average climb and then look out again.

If you have too much displayed, you will have difficulty absorbing it and your climb rate will suffer.

[Ramy[_2_]]

If you using XCSoar I recommend the thermal profile infobox (forgot how it is called). It will help you significantly to adjust your circles to the strongest lift. Works like charm. Just make sure to read the manual on how to interpret it. Very easy to use and does not require switching to thermal profile page since a small info box is sufficient.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 2:35:08 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> Keep your eyes out of the cockpit and look for other gliders. Listen to the audio to center. An occasional glance at the average climb and then look out again.
>
> If you have too much displayed, you will have difficulty absorbing it and your climb rate will suffer.

One famous pilot has said, "If you can think about anything except thermalling
when you're thermalling, you're not thinking about thermalling hard enough!"

Another famous pilot described all the ways to look for traffic when
thermalling, e.g. at odd thousands and thousands plus 500, especially watch
for traffic coming from the East, and from the West at the evens.

Myself, I get (mentally) tired just thinking of all the stuff you have to
think about! As far as what I want to see and hear, I like the color coded
display of the lift (drifted with the wind) that XCSoar provides. After that,
I want to see the 20 second average compared with the thermal average.
The little lift strength vs. altitude graph is nice to check out. As
I get higher I want to see how well I'm doing compared with getting to final
glide, and where my course line is, and what the clouds are doing down
that course line. I want to hear where the lift is best in my circle and
anticipate 1/4 turn ahead of that so I know where to flatten out to better
center the lift. Finally, and most importantly, I want to know about other
traffic and other things in the same thermal (gliders, birds, cornstalks,
small houses, etc!) so I can see where the core of the thermal is.
Especially down low, I can see the wind drift by taking note of ground features
and cloud shadows.

And lastly, if you do see a conflict, match *bank angle* !!! Then push or
pull to avoid the impact. In wingspan we're a lot bigger so it's much
easier to avoid impact if that long aspect doesn't cross.

Matt

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 11:30:07 AM UTC-7, pete purdie wrote:
> 1. What's my current average? (Last 1 or 2 turns).
>
> 2. What's my average since I started climbing?
>
> When 1 < 2 then time to leave.
>
> At 15:57 26 May 2015, drguyacheso wrote:
> >How fast I am going UP.
> >

I think of it in terms of the decisions I need to make and info needed to make them.

Recentering:
Current instantaneous rate of climb versus climb rate around the circle (SeeYou mobile depicts this pretty well now - Winpilot used to be the best)

Keep climbing versus leave the thermal:
Average climb rate versus thermal average and ~30 minute average. First one should be greater than the last one unless I'm making a save in which case I'm looking at the first versus the second one. Also AGL altitude versus estimated distance to next good climb based on average glide distance, thermal strength variation for the past 30 minutes, adjusted for how conditions look ahead. Here I'm trying to statistically estimate the probability of having to take a sub-standard climb versus sticking with the current one.

Keep circling versus climb straight ahead:
Approaching cloud base you need altitude to cloud base (or top of lift if there are no clouds), distance to the edge of the clouds (which could be quite long if there is streeting) and some estimate of how broadly the lift is distributed and how concentrated the strong cores are. You won't get much of that from an info box, but it is an important part of tactics if you are trying to maximize XC speed.

Keep climbing versus head out on final glide:
Last circle climb rate versus 30 minute average and current altitude versus altitude required to reach minimum Mc for final glide margin - which may be higher than the 30' average climb rate if the day is dying. Adding in expectations for climbs ahead including adjustments for bad tries and centering time. Adding a little climb at a sub-optimal climb rate in a thermal you've already centered to get up to a comfortable final glide with a buffer probably beats trying to make it up to final glide altitude with a few turns here and there on final glide. This decision varies based on distance remaining and altitude where you achieve final glide - further out and higher up means you are more willing to head out below full final glide. Most of that information won't come directly off an info box either.

Andy - 9B

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 9:35:06 AM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I am interested in what information other pilots feel is most important when thermalling.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Blake 3Y

Blake has just heard this but I wonder what others think. I have been stuck, plateaued for years by fear of getting low (old hang glider pilot) and landing out (hanggliders were easy, only need 100 feet of run out).
So I discovered when my flight computer died in flight that I flew much faster, further, and had less anxiety! I was just looking where I wanted to go and using "instincts" On May 3, 2015 I flew a 500 pt, 5 hour OLC flight at El tiro without ever looking at a flight computer!
On another point, I have observed myself thermalling on more and more occassions without looking at the vario and while distracted by something else and noted that I go into an unconcious "auto-pilot-thermal mode" in which I return to awareness of the vario, the glider, and myself and find that several minutes and thousands of feet of climbing occurred at a usually higher climb rate than before I went into Autopilotthermal mode?
Am I crazy? Don't ask Blake! LOL
P.S. I must encourage, say that this is one of the few threads I have enjoyed, due to pilots discussing their personal thinking processes and decision making processes. More is appreciated, and especially a short synopis on your OLC flight postings in the comments box. The more the better. Not a description per se but an analysis of what was really key to success or failure of that flight.
Thanks to all, I learn so much. Craig McMillan, Zuni II, ZB

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 11:28:10 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 9:35:06 AM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I am interested in what information other pilots feel is most important when thermalling.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Blake 3Y
>
> Blake has just heard this but I wonder what others think. I have been stuck, plateaued for years by fear of getting low (old hang glider pilot) and landing out (hanggliders were easy, only need 100 feet of run out).
> So I discovered when my flight computer died in flight that I flew much faster, further, and had less anxiety! I was just looking where I wanted to go and using "instincts" On May 3, 2015 I flew a 500 pt, 5 hour OLC flight at El tiro without ever looking at a flight computer!
> On another point, I have observed myself thermalling on more and more occassions without looking at the vario and while distracted by something else and noted that I go into an unconcious "auto-pilot-thermal mode" in which I return to awareness of the vario, the glider, and myself and find that several minutes and thousands of feet of climbing occurred at a usually higher climb rate than before I went into Autopilotthermal mode?
> Am I crazy? Don't ask Blake! LOL
> P.S. I must encourage, say that this is one of the few threads I have enjoyed, due to pilots discussing their personal thinking processes and decision making processes. More is appreciated, and especially a short synopis on your OLC flight postings in the comments box. The more the better. Not a description per se but an analysis of what was really key to success or failure of that flight.
> Thanks to all, I learn so much. Craig McMillan, Zuni II, ZB

It is kind of nice when all the electrics quit and you can just enjoy a quiet flight. Feeling the glider(what Craig calls "autopilot") is a skill that can't be replaced by a computer. Fly every day for a week or so and see how much less you rely on the vario.
The best these boxes are likely to do is tell where the thermal was on the last turn, possibly with some forward extrapolation. I want to know where it will be on the next turn.
FWIW

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 8:35:06 AM UTC-7, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I am interested in what information other pilots feel is most important when thermalling.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Blake 3Y

The old Winpilot had, and continues to have to this day, the best thermaling display. It switches to that display when you want it, switches back when you don't, automatically. Displays a scrolling graph of average climb with lines representing both the Mc setting and average climb of the day as reference. It depicts the climb around the circle as a tilted, rotating 3D cylindrical graph, at a glance you get a complete picture of the thermal. It inserts a correction vector on the graph indicating which direction, and how much to correct. It is quite accurate even in very trashy conditions. It also animates the Flarm targets around the cylinder (which shows their relative position and altitude) for excellent situational awareness of traffic in the thermal. Nothing in SYM, XCSoar, iGlide, or (sadly) the new iOS Winpilot even comes close.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 11:30:56 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 8:35:06 AM UTC-7, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I am interested in what information other pilots feel is most important when thermalling.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Blake 3Y
>
> The old Winpilot had, and continues to have to this day, the best thermaling display. It switches to that display when you want it, switches back when you don't, automatically. Displays a scrolling graph of average climb with lines representing both the Mc setting and average climb of the day as reference. It depicts the climb around the circle as a tilted, rotating 3D cylindrical graph, at a glance you get a complete picture of the thermal. It inserts a correction vector on the graph indicating which direction, and how much to correct. It is quite accurate even in very trashy conditions. It also animates the Flarm targets around the cylinder (which shows their relative position and altitude) for excellent situational awareness of traffic in the thermal. Nothing in SYM, XCSoar, iGlide, or (sadly) the new iOS Winpilot even comes close.

fitch, you elaborated precisely why I'm still flying Winpilot Pro on an Avier. Have always felt like the climb maximizer is my 'secret weapon'. When comparing flights in the same airmass with my peers, I find that I have the highest average climb rates (not when John Cochrane is around).

[jfitch]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 6:27:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 11:30:56 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 8:35:06 AM UTC-7, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > I am interested in what information other pilots feel is most important when thermalling.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Blake 3Y
> >
> > The old Winpilot had, and continues to have to this day, the best thermaling display. It switches to that display when you want it, switches back when you don't, automatically. Displays a scrolling graph of average climb with lines representing both the Mc setting and average climb of the day as reference. It depicts the climb around the circle as a tilted, rotating 3D cylindrical graph, at a glance you get a complete picture of the thermal. It inserts a correction vector on the graph indicating which direction, and how much to correct. It is quite accurate even in very trashy conditions. It also animates the Flarm targets around the cylinder (which shows their relative position and altitude) for excellent situational awareness of traffic in the thermal. Nothing in SYM, XCSoar, iGlide, or (sadly) the new iOS Winpilot even comes close.
>
> fitch, you elaborated precisely why I'm still flying Winpilot Pro on an Avier. Have always felt like the climb maximizer is my 'secret weapon'. When comparing flights in the same airmass with my peers, I find that I have the highest average climb rates (not when John Cochrane is around).

I might be still using too it but it is not supported and no longer works with the Butterfly vario.

I have found the Winpilot assistant often as good as the results of my full attention, and always nearly as good. This allows much more time to study the weather, course, eat lunch, and contemplate the world. It requires no more than a glance every circle or so.

Here is my test for a thermal assistant: While my engine is folded back but not stowed - its cool down period - the tail triple probe pneumatics are subject to severe turbulence from the engine, bay doors, and prop. The vario needle will swing rapidly and continuously from stop to stop. I have a spare vario hooked to the fuselage static and can use that, but it is uncompensated. However, using the Winpilot thermal assistant interpreting this noisy signal, and following it's correction suggestion, I can reliably center a thermal about as well as anyone. I have tried that with SYM, XCSoar, and iGlide and they are hopeless.

[Ramy[_2_]]

I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.

Ramy

[jfitch]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.
>
> Ramy

Ramy,

I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:56:52 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Ramy,
>
> I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.

I was a hard core WinPilot climb maximizer snob, but I finally gave up because of the hardware platforms and general lack of development. SeeYou Mobile used to be terrible, but the latest version has a pretty cool thermal strength breadcrumb display that works quite well and helps tease out thermal shape, multiple cores, etc. It would be nice if it did a better job of graying out the track after 5 or 6 turns or overlaying the newer tracks (for climb maximizer mode separate from navigate mode), but overall I like it a lot better than Naviter's prior efforts. It's also cool that it is just a zoomed in version of the normal moving map display with some additional "move the center this way" guidance (guidance is good, but still not quite as definitive as WinPilot's was). You can use your trace to come back to the location of the core near a turnpoint, etc. It's also a lot better at starting right when you start thermalling - it used to take a turn or so to get going, which was just what you didn't need.

Andy
9B

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:56:52 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Ramy,
>
> I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.


I actually see the simplicity of the XCSoar thermal assistance as advantage.. It is totally intuitive and only require a glimpse to know when to level off momentarily (it is important to read the manual to understand how to use it effectively), which is all you need to know in a thermal. Everything else is just distraction. And since it is so simple, it nicely fits in an infobox. I dont think winpilot thermal assistance is available as infobox, and I wouldnt want my flight computer to switch screens for me automatically, or even manually. I like to see the moving map and trace at all times. In fact, the xcsoar thermal assistance is so helpful it almost feels like cheating!

Ramy

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

How about the expensive panel mounted systems like LX NAV 90XX, LX Navigation, Clear Nav, do those have a good thermal optimizer? I would like to think that if you pay $2,000-6,000 for a system it would be much better than an app downloaded to a phone!?

[jfitch]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 11:54:18 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:56:52 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> >
> > Ramy,
> >
> > I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.
>
>
> I actually see the simplicity of the XCSoar thermal assistance as advantage. It is totally intuitive and only require a glimpse to know when to level off momentarily (it is important to read the manual to understand how to use it effectively), which is all you need to know in a thermal. Everything else is just distraction. And since it is so simple, it nicely fits in an infobox. I dont think winpilot thermal assistance is available as infobox, and I wouldnt want my flight computer to switch screens for me automatically, or even manually. I like to see the moving map and trace at all times. In fact, the xcsoar thermal assistance is so helpful it almost feels like cheating!
>
> Ramy

Ramy, have you ever used the thermal assistant on (the old) Winpilot?

Jonathan - you might like to think that, but you'd be wrong :).

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 1:07:53 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 11:54:18 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:56:52 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > > I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.
> > > >
> > > > Ramy
> > >
> > > Ramy,
> > >
> > > I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.
> >
> >
> > I actually see the simplicity of the XCSoar thermal assistance as advantage. It is totally intuitive and only require a glimpse to know when to level off momentarily (it is important to read the manual to understand how to use it effectively), which is all you need to know in a thermal. Everything else is just distraction. And since it is so simple, it nicely fits in an infobox. I dont think winpilot thermal assistance is available as infobox, and I wouldnt want my flight computer to switch screens for me automatically, or even manually. I like to see the moving map and trace at all times. In fact, the xcsoar thermal assistance is so helpful it almost feels like cheating!
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Ramy, have you ever used the thermal assistant on (the old) Winpilot?
>
> Jonathan - you might like to think that, but you'd be wrong :).

John, yes I tried years ago when I used winpilot, but didnt like the fact that it takes over my whole screen. I know it is doing a good job based on feedbacks I heard but I didnt feel the need to have a dedicated screen for centering a thermal, while having an infobox in xcsoar is much less intrusive. You can either glimpse on it or ignore it. Thats the beauty of it.

Ramy

[Tim Taylor]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 12:37:29 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:56:52 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> >
> > Ramy,
> >
> > I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.
>
> I was a hard core WinPilot climb maximizer snob, but I finally gave up because of the hardware platforms and general lack of development. SeeYou Mobile used to be terrible, but the latest version has a pretty cool thermal strength breadcrumb display that works quite well and helps tease out thermal shape, multiple cores, etc. It would be nice if it did a better job of graying out the track after 5 or 6 turns or overlaying the newer tracks (for climb maximizer mode separate from navigate mode), but overall I like it a lot better than Naviter's prior efforts. It's also cool that it is just a zoomed in version of the normal moving map display with some additional "move the center this way" guidance (guidance is good, but still not quite as definitive as WinPilot's was). You can use your trace to come back to the location of the core near a turnpoint, etc. It's also a lot better at starting right when you start thermalling - it used to take a turn or so to get going, which was just what you didn't need.
>
> Andy
> 9B

I agree with Andy. I loved the Winpilot climb maximizer. It came on when you needed it and was very easy to use. I miss the line graph of thermal strength over time. I do not know why none of the others have provided this feature as an option.

I liked the full screen with the diagram and the chart. It did have a quick switch button for the iPAQ that allowed you to toggle the other screen quickly if you wanted to. I guess I tend to be focused on optimizing the climb when I am climbing and don't need to see the other maps all the time.

SeeYou Mobile is better than it was but still does not start and stop when it should. The bubbles do not give as good of resolution as WP did in the graphic mode and I would like to have the average climb rate versus time graph. SYM is about a 6 out of 10 now but WP was a 10/10. Hopefully they will continue to improve it and add the additional graphic as an option.

Tim
TT

[6PK]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 2:02:55 PM UTC-7, Tim Taylor wrote:
> On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 12:37:29 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:56:52 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > > I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.
> > > >
> > > > Ramy
> > >
> > > Ramy,
> > >
> > > I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.
> >
> > I was a hard core WinPilot climb maximizer snob, but I finally gave up because of the hardware platforms and general lack of development. SeeYou Mobile used to be terrible, but the latest version has a pretty cool thermal strength breadcrumb display that works quite well and helps tease out thermal shape, multiple cores, etc. It would be nice if it did a better job of graying out the track after 5 or 6 turns or overlaying the newer tracks (for climb maximizer mode separate from navigate mode), but overall I like it a lot better than Naviter's prior efforts. It's also cool that it is just a zoomed in version of the normal moving map display with some additional "move the center this way" guidance (guidance is good, but still not quite as definitive as WinPilot's was). You can use your trace to come back to the location of the core near a turnpoint, etc. It's also a lot better at starting right when you start thermalling - it used to take a turn or so to get going, which was just what you didn't need.
> >
> > Andy
> > 9B
>
> I agree with Andy. I loved the Winpilot climb maximizer. It came on when you needed it and was very easy to use. I miss the line graph of thermal strength over time. I do not know why none of the others have provided this feature as an option.
>
> I liked the full screen with the diagram and the chart. It did have a quick switch button for the iPAQ that allowed you to toggle the other screen quickly if you wanted to. I guess I tend to be focused on optimizing the climb when I am climbing and don't need to see the other maps all the time.
>
> SeeYou Mobile is better than it was but still does not start and stop when it should. The bubbles do not give as good of resolution as WP did in the graphic mode and I would like to have the average climb rate versus time graph. SYM is about a 6 out of 10 now but WP was a 10/10. Hopefully they will continue to improve it and add the additional graphic as an option.
>
> Tim
> TT

I sadly agree with all who favor WinPilot's climb maximizer. I actually feel that as a Windows platform it is still the most straight forward software out there. It is really too bad that the developer/owner has turned his back on this fine glide computer and is refusing to offer support. I downloaded the WP ios simulator out of curiosity and not impressed with it at all. I also like XCSoar but really not a great fan of SYM for many reasons.
WP IMO is leaving money on the table by not offering minimal support. I know I would be willing to pay for updates, aviation database ( a sore subject- has not been updated in two years)etc.
Little by little I am heading over to the XCSoar camp through.
6PK

[waremark]

I find the LX 9000 thermal assistant good. I used to like the WP one but but cannot remember how it compares.

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 22:40 30 May 2015, waremark wrote:
>I find the LX 9000 thermal assistant good. I used to like the WP one but
>but cannot remember how it compares.

I too think that the LX9000 assistant is quite good but the difficulty I
have
with all the thermal assistants that show any sort of circular display is
that (even ignoring wind drift) any re-centering move I make must mean
that I have moved to a new circle position which invalidates, to a greater

or lesser extent, the data represented in the remainder of the previous
circle before the shift was made.

What I have found more useful is to zoom into the snail trail, have it set

to colour climb rates above or below a mid climb range MC setting, and
mentally allow for the effects of drift. As previously mentioned, this
seems to be what SYM/Oudie has moved to as well. I have so often
looked at my own and other pilots flight traces on SeeYou and wondered
why the thermals weren't being centered properly so now I look at the
same display in real time while I can still do something about it.

John Galloway

[Blake Seese 3Y]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 9:35:06 AM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I am interested in what information other pilots feel is most important when thermalling.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Blake 3Y

The XC Soar/TopHat thermal tool seems to work just fine. Now that I have been observing it more closely, it helps you turn into the strongest part of the lift. Actually seems to work pretty well. Best for the price!