Orange markers on the glider. Paint or stickers?

[Philip van de Donk]

Coming winter I am planning to have my ASH-26E repainted (in Acryl + clearcoat or PU) as its' gelcoat is gradually coming to the end of its life. I want to combine this with the regular engine maintenance, solar panel installation on the engine doors etc.

I currently have orange markings on the glider in the form of stickers.

At the refinish I want to have the orange markers back on. However I am still in doubt whether to have them painted or have stickers again. My worry is that when you have them painted, that the color will wear out and that I need to have the glider repainted on those spots.

I know that stickers do have a limited lifespan but those are easily replaced when the colors start to fade.

But painting is tempting now that I plan to have the entire glider repainted anyway.

So what is your experience with painting of orange markers? How long will the colors last and what method/paint did you use?
When painting, any tips on how to prolong the life of the colors?
What method do you recommend? Stickers or paint?

Of course the degradation of the colors is dependent on the amount of UV the glider is exposed to. So I give an indiction of UV exposure for my glider.. It is in the trailer when not flying, with the exception of some weeks of mountain flying/competition flying where I keep my glider rigged and keep them in the covers. The trailer is in the hangar most of the time.

[ND]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 3:30:32 AM UTC-4, Philip van de Donk wrote:
> Coming winter I am planning to have my ASH-26E repainted (in Acryl + clearcoat or PU) as its' gelcoat is gradually coming to the end of its life. I want to combine this with the regular engine maintenance, solar panel installation on the engine doors etc.
>
> I currently have orange markings on the glider in the form of stickers.
>
> At the refinish I want to have the orange markers back on. However I am still in doubt whether to have them painted or have stickers again. My worry is that when you have them painted, that the color will wear out and that I need to have the glider repainted on those spots.
>
> I know that stickers do have a limited lifespan but those are easily replaced when the colors start to fade.
>
> But painting is tempting now that I plan to have the entire glider repainted anyway.
>
> So what is your experience with painting of orange markers? How long will the colors last and what method/paint did you use?
> When painting, any tips on how to prolong the life of the colors?
> What method do you recommend? Stickers or paint?
>
> Of course the degradation of the colors is dependent on the amount of UV the glider is exposed to. So I give an indiction of UV exposure for my glider. It is in the trailer when not flying, with the exception of some weeks of mountain flying/competition flying where I keep my glider rigged and keep them in the covers. The trailer is in the hangar most of the time.

if the orange is PU it's not going to fade. as for wearing it away, use the proper polishing wheel/compound, and you won't eat the markings up over time.

[[email protected]]

Any polyurethane worth it's salt if properly applied wont' wear out for a very long time. If you want the markings permanent make them polyurethane. Adhesive markings would be good if you think you may sell the ship in the future to someone who may not want them (or, if exported, it goes to a country where the airworthiness doesn't allow them - I've seen a few glider type certificates which still have the "must be white all over except for national registration marks" in them with no provision for additional coloured markings and seen this interpreted by officials as meaning the markings are prohibited!)

[Jim Kellett]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 3:30:32 AM UTC-4, Philip van de Donk wrote:

> At the refinish I want to have the orange markers back on.

This would be a good opportunity to leave the orange markings off. Many years back, there was a study in the UK by the Cranfield Institute that confirmed that the orange "anti-collision" markings so popular actually made the glider LESS conspicuous!

[Dave Walsh]

At 10:21 05 June 2015, Jim Kellett wrote:
>On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 3:30:32 AM UTC-4, Philip van de
Donk wrote:
>
>> At the refinish I want to have the orange markers back on.
>
>This would be a good opportunity to leave the orange
markings off. Many
>years back, there was a study in the UK by the Cranfield
Institute that
>confirmed that the orange "anti-collision" markings so
popular actually
>made the glider LESS conspicuous!
>

But wasn't this Cranfield study done with dumpy motor gliders?
Falke, Grob 109, which are (relatively) easy to see? Without
anti-collision markings you cannot fly at any French gliding
site. Hard to imagine that many Alpine pilots think they would
be more visible without their day-glo orange markers!

[[email protected]]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 3:30:32 AM UTC-4, Philip van de Donk wrote:
> Coming winter I am planning to have my ASH-26E repainted (in Acryl + clearcoat or PU) as its' gelcoat is gradually coming to the end of its life. I want to combine this with the regular engine maintenance, solar panel installation on the engine doors etc.
>
> I currently have orange markings on the glider in the form of stickers.
>
> At the refinish I want to have the orange markers back on. However I am still in doubt whether to have them painted or have stickers again. My worry is that when you have them painted, that the color will wear out and that I need to have the glider repainted on those spots.
>
> I know that stickers do have a limited lifespan but those are easily replaced when the colors start to fade.
>
> But painting is tempting now that I plan to have the entire glider repainted anyway.
>
> So what is your experience with painting of orange markers? How long will the colors last and what method/paint did you use?
> When painting, any tips on how to prolong the life of the colors?
> What method do you recommend? Stickers or paint?
>
> Of course the degradation of the colors is dependent on the amount of UV the glider is exposed to. So I give an indiction of UV exposure for my glider. It is in the trailer when not flying, with the exception of some weeks of mountain flying/competition flying where I keep my glider rigged and keep them in the covers. The trailer is in the hangar most of the time.

I have purchased the "security fluorescent red paint" and the clear top coat from Schempp Hirth. My cross country mates tell me they can see my glider from far off before they can see other gliders with red or orange markings on their gliders. There is something about this specific security paint that works very well.

Forget what the UK study says. Once I was flying with eight other gliders near the Grand Paradiso mountain (the Alps) against the rocks covered with snow. We were all pushed in tightly because of dense cloud cover at this altitude. the only gliders I could spot immediately were those that had the security markings on their gliders. The others I could only spot when very close. Too close for comfort. Tense situation. Made a believer out of me.

Again, not all paint types, even if they appear red or orange will have the visibility that this security paint has. Highly recommended. I have tried the security red foil and was not nearly as happy with it. It also takes much more skill to apply without wrinkles and still have the problem of tough edges with the foil.

[Philip van de Donk]

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 12:21:57 PM UTC+2, Jim Kellett wrote:
> On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 3:30:32 AM UTC-4, Philip van de Donk wrote:
>
> > At the refinish I want to have the orange markers back on.
>
> This would be a good opportunity to leave the orange markings off. Many years back, there was a study in the UK by the Cranfield Institute that confirmed that the orange "anti-collision" markings so popular actually made the glider LESS conspicuous!

This is not an option as I often fly in France where orange markers are mandatory. I also believe if it improves visibility by only 5% then it is worthwile to put them on.

Had such an experience only yesterday when a glider approached me head-on. It had the markers on the wings, and I had just spotted it in time to perform evasive action. It was already a little too close for comfort. Without the markers on its' wings, I would have spotted it later and I rather don't like to think of what might have happened then.....

[[email protected]]

I have to agree that having the high visibility markings help with making the glider stand out more in comparison to all white. Even if it is a marginal improvement, I'll gladly take it.
I've been looking into adding some high visibility markings for my glider here in the US. I know there's the paint previously mentioned from SH and others, as well as the the 3M foil available online from some online sailplane supply stores in Europe. Any pros/cons to using paint or the stickers (other than the removal or application already mentioned)?
I've tried to find a matching 3M product here in the US as the 3M foil I've seen online in Europe but can't. Anyone found a similar/comparable product in the US? The closest I've found is a 3M Scotchcal highly fluorescent vinyl sticker that seems to be same thickness as is used for contest and registration numbers.

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 6:59:07 AM UTC-4, wrote:

> I've tried to find a matching 3M product here in the US as the 3M foil I've seen online in Europe but can't.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/ScotchliteNA/Scotchlite/Products/?N=4621+8696057&rt=r3

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 12:13:19 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 6:59:07 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> > I've tried to find a matching 3M product here in the US as the 3M foil I've seen online in Europe but can't.
>
> http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/ScotchliteNA/Scotchlite/Products/?N=4621+8696057&rt=r3

Thanks, I've seen that before but I think that is typically used on emergency vehicles and is much thicker.

I found this, but it is only available in Europe:
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_EU/3MGraphics/GraphicSolutions/Products/Catalogue/~/Electronically-Cut-Graphic-Films?N=5002511+7568180+3294529203&rt=c3

I've found this that I can order here, whcih seems to be the same:
http://www.advantagesgs.com/3M-8482-Scotchcal-ElectroCut-Graphic-Film-7725SE-414-Fluorescent-Red-Orange-Unpun-15-x-10-yards

I'm just wondering if anyone has found or used something similar here in the US that didn't require buying 10 yards of it... Worst case scenario I buy a roll and share it with others...

[Nick[_5_]]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/The-difference-between-Calandered-and-Cast-Vinyl-/10000000002950459/g.html

There are different types of vinyls.

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 9:56:55 AM UTC-4, wrote:

> I've found this that I can order here, whcih seems to be the same:
> http://www.advantagesgs.com/3M-8482-Scotchcal-ElectroCut-Graphic-Film-7725SE-414-Fluorescent-Red-Orange-Unpun-15-x-10-yards

You're right. Scotchcal is a much better choice, especially because it needs no adhesive to adhere. When the color fades, peel it off and replace it.. No penalty for experimentation.

I was poking around using the search terms 'daylight conspicuity' and found some research on motorcycle conspicuity. (Motorcycle has roughly the same silhouette as a glider fuselage flying straight at you.) Some results show that orange works because of contrast with the background (apt for the French Alps), whereas yellow works by brightness/luminosity (shows less contrast with background). The orange areas need to be large to be effective (entire orange jacket opposed to orange tape on fenders). This suggests that glider markings need to be large. I wonder if two orange wingtips would be a lot more effective than a single orange nosecone. I wonder if orange Scotchcal on the entire leading edge of the wing would be more visible (and whether the edge of the film would increase drag... like bugs).

There was some research in the UK that applying 'mirror film' to ailerons such that they work like 'signal mirrors' in direct sunlight make a glider on short final more visible to aircraft that were flying faster and behind it on final. Seems like the 'signal mirror' effect would work in other scenarios if the mirror film were applied to the rudder. The intermittant glints of reflected sun would be conspicuious and not annoying. The drawback is that the mirror film uses adhesive.

The scenario of two gliders 180 opposed and converging under a cloud street or landing/taking_off on opposing runways might be best addressed by a forward facing white LED strobe such as http://www.vehiclesafetysupply.com/peterson-153sc-piranha-led-ultra-mini-strobing-lights-white-p-412.html (assuming Experimental Airworthiness). The low light levels near cloud base makes a strobe more effective as does a narrow forward focus. Only one glider needs a strobe.

Retroreflective tape might somewhat increase conspicuity in lower light like under a cloud street, but the thickness and the adhesive are drawbacks.

To increase glider conspicuity to overtaking aircraft one might easily affix one of the newer streamline self-contained strobing LED lithium battery bicycle lights tail to the top of a T-tail. No wiring needed.
http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/best-bike-lights-for-road-cycling-32289/ Similar mass and mounting technique to a Go Pro.

Then there is the scenario where you see another glider, but you're not sure that he see you (say opposing flight on a ridge). Flashing an extra bright forward facing strobe a few times might have some value. Ideally, the opposing pilot flashes his strobe to acknowledge.

I'm hoping to get feedback on these ideas before I impliment any of them.

I'd like to see universal installation of Powerflarm, but until then...

[Dan Marotta]

Ya know, I saw a glider recently that had a built-in strobe strip in the
leading edge of the vertical fin. I don't remember the model of glider,
but I thought it was a terrific idea.

On 6/9/2015 9:35 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 9:56:55 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>
>> I've found this that I can order here, whcih seems to be the same:
>> http://www.advantagesgs.com/3M-8482-Scotchcal-ElectroCut-Graphic-Film-7725SE-414-Fluorescent-Red-Orange-Unpun-15-x-10-yards
> You're right. Scotchcal is a much better choice, especially because it needs no adhesive to adhere. When the color fades, peel it off and replace it. No penalty for experimentation.
>
> I was poking around using the search terms 'daylight conspicuity' and found some research on motorcycle conspicuity. (Motorcycle has roughly the same silhouette as a glider fuselage flying straight at you.) Some results show that orange works because of contrast with the background (apt for the French Alps), whereas yellow works by brightness/luminosity (shows less contrast with background). The orange areas need to be large to be effective (entire orange jacket opposed to orange tape on fenders). This suggests that glider markings need to be large. I wonder if two orange wingtips would be a lot more effective than a single orange nosecone. I wonder if orange Scotchcal on the entire leading edge of the wing would be more visible (and whether the edge of the film would increase drag... like bugs).
>
> There was some research in the UK that applying 'mirror film' to ailerons such that they work like 'signal mirrors' in direct sunlight make a glider on short final more visible to aircraft that were flying faster and behind it on final. Seems like the 'signal mirror' effect would work in other scenarios if the mirror film were applied to the rudder. The intermittant glints of reflected sun would be conspicuious and not annoying. The drawback is that the mirror film uses adhesive.
>
> The scenario of two gliders 180 opposed and converging under a cloud street or landing/taking_off on opposing runways might be best addressed by a forward facing white LED strobe such as http://www.vehiclesafetysupply.com/peterson-153sc-piranha-led-ultra-mini-strobing-lights-white-p-412.html (assuming Experimental Airworthiness). The low light levels near cloud base makes a strobe more effective as does a narrow forward focus. Only one glider needs a strobe.
>
> Retroreflective tape might somewhat increase conspicuity in lower light like under a cloud street, but the thickness and the adhesive are drawbacks.
>
> To increase glider conspicuity to overtaking aircraft one might easily affix one of the newer streamline self-contained strobing LED lithium battery bicycle lights tail to the top of a T-tail. No wiring needed.
> http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/best-bike-lights-for-road-cycling-32289/ Similar mass and mounting technique to a Go Pro.
>
> Then there is the scenario where you see another glider, but you're not sure that he see you (say opposing flight on a ridge). Flashing an extra bright forward facing strobe a few times might have some value. Ideally, the opposing pilot flashes his strobe to acknowledge.
>
> I'm hoping to get feedback on these ideas before I impliment any of them.
>
> I'd like to see universal installation of Powerflarm, but until then...

--
Dan Marotta

[bumper[_4_]]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 9:05:55 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Ya know, I saw a glider recently that had a built-in strobe strip in
> the leading edge of the vertical fin.* I don't remember the model of
> glider, but I thought it was a terrific idea.
>
>
>
>
> On 6/9/2015 9:35 AM, son_of_flubber
> wrote:
>

The ASH31Mi has that, I believe as an option (Mitch Polinski has them on his ship). Nicely done, faired in smoothly so no drag penalty. But, as with canopies, the acrylic lens is bonded to the rudder, so there's no easy way to repair should that ever be required.
>
> On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 9:56:55 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>
>
>
> I've found this that I can order here, whcih seems to be the same:
> http://www.advantagesgs.com/3M-8482-Scotchcal-ElectroCut-Graphic-Film-7725SE-414-Fluorescent-Red-Orange-Unpun-15-x-10-yards
>
>
> You're right. Scotchcal is a much better choice, especially because it needs no adhesive to adhere. When the color fades, peel it off and replace it. No penalty for experimentation.
>
> I was poking around using the search terms 'daylight conspicuity' and found some research on motorcycle conspicuity. (Motorcycle has roughly the same silhouette as a glider fuselage flying straight at you.) Some results show that orange works because of contrast with the background (apt for the French Alps), whereas yellow works by brightness/luminosity (shows less contrast with background). The orange areas need to be large to be effective (entire orange jacket opposed to orange tape on fenders). This suggests that glider markings need to be large. I wonder if two orange wingtips would be a lot more effective than a single orange nosecone. I wonder if orange Scotchcal on the entire leading edge of the wing would be more visible (and whether the edge of the film would increase drag... like bugs).
>
> There was some research in the UK that applying 'mirror film' to ailerons such that they work like 'signal mirrors' in direct sunlight make a glider on short final more visible to aircraft that were flying faster and behind it on final. Seems like the 'signal mirror' effect would work in other scenarios if the mirror film were applied to the rudder. The intermittant glints of reflected sun would be conspicuious and not annoying. The drawback is that the mirror film uses adhesive.
>
> The scenario of two gliders 180 opposed and converging under a cloud street or landing/taking_off on opposing runways might be best addressed by a forward facing white LED strobe such as http://www.vehiclesafetysupply.com/peterson-153sc-piranha-led-ultra-mini-strobing-lights-white-p-412.html (assuming Experimental Airworthiness). The low light levels near cloud base makes a strobe more effective as does a narrow forward focus. Only one glider needs a strobe.
>
> Retroreflective tape might somewhat increase conspicuity in lower light like under a cloud street, but the thickness and the adhesive are drawbacks.
>
> To increase glider conspicuity to overtaking aircraft one might easily affix one of the newer streamline self-contained strobing LED lithium battery bicycle lights tail to the top of a T-tail. No wiring needed.
> http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/best-bike-lights-for-road-cycling-32289/ Similar mass and mounting technique to a Go Pro.
>
> Then there is the scenario where you see another glider, but you're not sure that he see you (say opposing flight on a ridge). Flashing an extra bright forward facing strobe a few times might have some value. Ideally, the opposing pilot flashes his strobe to acknowledge.
>
> I'm hoping to get feedback on these ideas before I impliment any of them.
>
> I'd like to see universal installation of Powerflarm, but until then...
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

[Jim White[_3_]]

I believe Jon Gatfield's strobe in his 27's fin was linked to his Flarm
which set it off when a threat was detected.

[Simon Waddell[_2_]]

LXNav supply a control unit to provide such a function:
http://www.lxnav.com/accessories/flarm-acl.html.

I don't know where to purchase a suitable strobe unit, but LXNav may be
able to advise.

At the Swiss gliding conference at the end of last year I saw a prototype
of a complete system, including control unit, where the strobe unit was
designed to fit inside the bottom front of the canopy. Had five or six
LEDs and up close it would melt your eyeballs. I've mislaid the
details....

Simon

At 08:06 10 June 2015, Jim White wrote:
>I believe Jon Gatfield's strobe in his 27's fin was linked to his Flar
>which set it off when a threat was detected.
>
>

[Simon Waddell[_2_]]

Here's the link to description of the canopy mounted strobe light; the same
company also provides a fuselage-mounted version and a controller:
http://www.aboba.ch/FLARM-Display-and-equipment/Blitzer-innen-Haubenblitzer/

Simon


At 08:50 10 June 2015, Simon Waddell wrote:
>LXNav supply a control unit to provide such a function
>http://www.lxnav.com/accessories/flarm-acl.html.
>
>I don't know where to purchase a suitable strobe unit, but LXNav may b
>able to advise.
>
>At the Swiss gliding conference at the end of last year I saw a prototyp
>of a complete system, including control unit, where the strobe unit wa
>designed to fit inside the bottom front of the canopy. Had five or si
>LEDs and up close it would melt your eyeballs. I've mislaid th
>details....
>
>Simon
>
>At 08:06 10 June 2015, Jim White wrote:
>>I believe Jon Gatfield's strobe in his 27's fin was linked to his Flar
>>which set it off when a threat was detected.
>>
>>
>
>

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Schleicher, offers the built in strobes as an option when purchasing a new glider. LX sella a unit for 250 euro that will light the strobe up like a Christmas tree when interrogated by a Flarm. There is no aerodynamic cost for this installation and a huge reward in visibility. Believe it or not, some opt not to order this option.