Trainer options for Big, (and fat), guys

[Jon S]

Hi,

I go about 6'4" 250lbs when I'm in shape, which I'm currently not.

I know there are other threads on this topic, but none seem recent, (i.e., withing several years), so I'm wondering if there are any new recommendations out there for models that would suit someone like me.

I can drop some weight, but not much, so useful load becomes as much an issue as my weight.

I know I'm not the first with this question, but I haven't seen any threads started in the last several years, so I thought I'd give it a new go. Any advice would be appreciated, right now I've talked to about 5 clubs and can't really even nail down a model that will work, let alone someone that has one. Thanks very much.

Jon

[[email protected]]

This will be a problem.
JAR 22 standards seem to limit all pilot stations to a max of 242 pounds.
A 2-32 may be your only option.

[Bill T]

Can't solo from the back seat of a 2-33, and that CFI would have to be really light, like 120# or less.
In the U.S., a 2-32 is about the only thing available.
Not only the per seat restrictions of 110kg for most modern glass gliders. You have the "Max wt of the non lifting" part of the glider.

BillT

[[email protected]]

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 11:47:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> This will be a problem.
> JAR 22 standards seem to limit all pilot stations to a max of 242 pounds.
> A 2-32 may be your only option.

242 lb (110 kg) is the *minimum* weight, not the maximum. The fact that no one allows for over the minimum is not a problem with the standards...

[[email protected]]

Ahhhhh, Marc.

LS-8 Flight Manual, page 2-6, Paragraph 2.9 Flight Crew.
"Maximum cockpit load (Pilot+parachute+baggage+temporary equipment)....110kg, 242 lbs."

[[email protected]]

Ahhhhh, Marc.
Flight Manual.
Schleicher ASK21 approved March 9, 1983.
Page 13. Paragraph II.8, Weight & Balance Information.
"Max. payload front seat (pilot incl. parachute): 242 lbs = 110 daN."
"Max. payload rear seat (pilot incl. parachute): 242 lbs = 110 daN."

[[email protected]]

Ahhhhhh, Marc.

Flight Manual Grob 103.
Page 6, paragraph II.8 Load scheme "TWIN II"
"Maximum load in the front seat . . . . 110 kg (242 lbs)"
"Maximum load in the back seat . . . . 110 kg (242 lbs)"

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 11:02:58 PM UTC-4, Bill T wrote:
> Can't solo from the back seat of a 2-33, and that CFI would have to be really light, like 120# or less.
> In the U.S., a 2-32 is about the only thing available.
> Not only the per seat restrictions of 110kg for most modern glass gliders. You have the "Max wt of the non lifting" part of the glider.
>
> BillT

I didn't say it was a good thing and you're correct, you can't solo from there.
The other issue (at least in a 2-33) is control movement. A "larger sized" person (not totally related to weight, but also posterior) could spread the cockpit sides enough to jam the rear rudder pedals.

Really, for a prospective pilot, would be to slim down some.
1-To be able to fly/fly more types
2-Add some years to your life.

Not picking on anyone, glad to see someone asking valid questions. Jon S., good luck in your pursuit of flying. No sarcasm intended.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 7:11:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Ahhhhhh, Marc.
>
> Flight Manual Grob 103.
> Page 6, paragraph II.8 Load scheme "TWIN II"
> "Maximum load in the front seat . . . . 110 kg (242 lbs)"
> "Maximum load in the back seat . . . . 110 kg (242 lbs)"

English is not an easy language. To be more precise, the minimum "maximum" pilot weight permissible under the JAR22 standard is 110 kg. That does not mean that JAR22 gliders are not permitted to have a higher "maximum" pilot weight than 110 kg, what it means is that none of the manufacturers (Genesis 2 is the sole exception, I believe) have chosen to provide over the minimum for the maximum pilot weight. Clear?

[[email protected]]

Ahhhhh, Marc.
Maximum means, "not to exceed."
It is not a "guideline." It is not "advice."
But, you are the pilot in command.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 7:58:40 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 7:11:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Ahhhhhh, Marc.
> >
> > Flight Manual Grob 103.
> > Page 6, paragraph II.8 Load scheme "TWIN II"
> > "Maximum load in the front seat . . . . 110 kg (242 lbs)"
> > "Maximum load in the back seat . . . . 110 kg (242 lbs)"
>
> English is not an easy language. To be more precise, the minimum "maximum" pilot weight permissible under the JAR22 standard is 110 kg. That does not mean that JAR22 gliders are not permitted to have a higher "maximum" pilot weight than 110 kg, what it means is that none of the manufacturers (Genesis 2 is the sole exception, I believe) have chosen to provide over the minimum for the maximum pilot weight. Clear?

Paraphrase of relevant section provided years ago by Bob K.:

: JAR 22.25 Weight Limits
:
: (a) Maximum weight. The maximum weight
: must be established so that it is:
:
: (2) Not less than the weight which
: results from the empty weight of
: the glider, plus a weight of occupant(s)
: and parachute(s) of 110 kg for a
: single seat glider or 180 kg for a
: two seat glider, plus the required
: minimum equipment, plus any expendable
: ballast and for a powered glider
: sufficient fuel for at least half
: an hour of flight at maximum continuous
: power.

Please note "not less"...

[[email protected]]

That is an interesting piece of writing, BUT
The individual aircraft flight manual is the authority on weight and balance.

I think what you are trying to rationalize is a situation where a pilot weighs more than 242 pounds but when you do the math the aircraft loading is still below the maximum non-lifting load limit, below the maximum all up loading, and the aircraft is within C.G. limits. This is always an interesting discussion.
However, the aircraft flight manual is the authority for each individual aircraft. Perhaps things like the design of the seats and backrests are some limiting factors in the maximum pilot weight of 242 pounds.
You should ask the manufacturer what their opinion is.
You should ask the FAA via the local FSDO office what their opinion is.
Let us know what you find out.

[[email protected]]

drguya,

You are missing the point.

JAR-22 says that the manufactures must design the aircraft to take AT LEAST a 242 pound pilot.

JAR-22 does not say the manufactures can not design to a heavier pilot. They just don't bother.

Marc is not trying to "rationalize" anything. He is placing the blame on the manufactures, not the JAR.

Todd
3S

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The real point is that the maximum weight is what is stated in the aircraft flight manual, no matter what the JAR22 written standards for certification are. I understand that a JAR22 aircraft must be designed to allow a pilot up to 242 pounds (including the chute). But, that in no way says that a JAR22 aircraft is allowed to fly with a pilot weighing more than 242 pounds..

This started out as a discussion about what the options are for a pilot who weighs more than 242 pounds.

Pretty much...not many.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:51:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:

> This started out as a discussion about what the options are for a pilot who weighs more than 242 pounds.
>
> Pretty much...not many.

That's for sure.

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:51:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> This started out as a discussion about what the options are for a pilot who weighs more than 242 pounds.

As of 2008, 10-15% of USA residents weigh over 240 lbs. (M/F ages 20-70)

https://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0209.pdf

[gkemp]

4000 hours in gliders and never weighed less than 242 lbs, don't know what that says, never had any problems