Downwind to final turns

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

There is another active thread on use of spoilers which bought up various opinions. Was wondering the pluses and minuses of various pattern procedures I was taught to make a 90 degree turn from downwind to base. On the base leg if too high I could angle away from runway until the 90 (or more at this Piont ) turn to final. Using spoilers anytime.

I have found over time I have adjusted my pattern to a long continuous 180 degree turn from downwind to final. I can make changes in the 180 as needed to arrive at my aim point. I do tend to fly 60 knots unless the wind is howling, then I might add a few more knots as at home field there is a steep winded gradient. Home field, Off field or another airport I fly the same and slow down on final so I always have a low energy landing. I fly flapped birds, one a two seat open class and the other a 18 meter. On the open bird I put in flaps on downwind and leave them alone, schempp, on the 18 AS, with larger flap deflection I only put in landing flap on final when landing is assured,Thoughts comments, different way of doing things?

[[email protected]]

Arguably, the base leg may be the most important leg. A proper length base leg allows a pilot to make adjustments - shortening the base leg and turning onto the final leg early if it is perceived to low (angle too shallow) or turning away from the landing area if it is perceived you are too high.

This adjustment allowance is especially important when landing at a strange airport, or even more important when landing off field.

It should also be noted extending the base leg and performing a "button hook" landing pattern can be very dangerous - especially if there is a wind gradient or turbulence.

A disciplined, rectangular, properly spaced landing pattern is a very important judgment tool as a pilot advances to cross country flying with the risks of off field landings.

A common error is flying too close to the landing area while on the downwind leg - leaving inadequate space for a proper base leg.

Tom Knauff

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Thank you Tom for your input. Not sure why I started to fly the 180 turn instead of two 90's with a proper base. It seems like I could shallow the bank to make a longer turn while adding spoiler and still judging that looks about right if needed, or I could steepen the turn to shorten if needed. Just seemed simpler . I do see other posters advocating the 180 "button hook". I think I will go back to the squared off pattern.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Thank you Tom for your input. Not sure why I started to fly the 180 turn instead of two 90's with a proper base. It seems like I could shallow the bank to make a longer turn while adding spoiler and still judging that looks about right if needed, or I could steepen the turn to shorten if needed. Just seemed simpler . I do see other posters advocating the 180 "button hook". I think I will go back to the squared off pattern.

The "button hook" was relating to a turn close to the ground if you go past the runway center line (low bank angle, late turn, not allowing for x-wind, etc.), not the "180 from downwind to final".

As to me (and what I taught) was to fly a downwind that gave a ground track parallel to the runway, turn ~90* (base leg) when touchdown is ~45* behind you, turn final when needed to line up but NOT overshoot the runway.
You could adjust dive brakes/spoilers as needed (usually start with ~1/2) or angle the base in or out as needed.
Once on final, you should only need to "fine tune" to hit your mark.

Listen to the wind noise, scan against the horizon (pitch attitude), glance at vario, keep asking, "Does it look good, does it sound right, does it feel right?" Adjust things so it's all good.

[[email protected]]

I understand Soaring magazine will publish an article about landing technique in the coming month or three.

Tom

[Bill D]

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 10:56:21 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> Arguably, the base leg may be the most important leg. A proper length base leg allows a pilot to make adjustments - shortening the base leg and turning onto the final leg early if it is perceived to low (angle too shallow) or turning away from the landing area if it is perceived you are too high.
>
> This adjustment allowance is especially important when landing at a strange airport, or even more important when landing off field.
>
> It should also be noted extending the base leg and performing a "button hook" landing pattern can be very dangerous - especially if there is a wind gradient or turbulence.
>
> A disciplined, rectangular, properly spaced landing pattern is a very important judgment tool as a pilot advances to cross country flying with the risks of off field landings.
>
> A common error is flying too close to the landing area while on the downwind leg - leaving inadequate space for a proper base leg.
>
> Tom Knauff

I don't think I would say either rectangular patterns or a 180 turn to final is "best". The USN has certainly shown the 180 turn is best for landing on carriers and they have really tight parameters. Rectangular patterns seem to work well for others. "Best" is what works for the pilot.

I find I can make very large energy/height/distance adjustments during a 180 turn to final even with a very close-in downwind leg by simply adjusting the turn radius, adding or subtracting a little spoiler or slip. I can also make large adjustments from a rectangular pattern. However, I think the visual information needed before making those adjustments is easier to see from a close-in 180 approach.

I see many pilots making rectangular patterns arrive way too high as they turn final because they were uncertain whether they could use spoilers until they were established on final where they had good visual cues. I've also seen many pilots get in trouble at the downwind to base turn in a rectanguolar pattern when they found themselves too far from the runway. I've never seen these things happen with a simple close-in 180 turn.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Good points, which is why I started to fly the 180, but was looking for comments from other pilots as to the pros and cons. Also what is taught in other counties.

[Dan Marotta]

The Air Force taught (and probably still does teach) the 360 deg
overhead pattern as a way to keep aircraft inside the field boundaries.
I don't guess I need to worry much about Viet Cong trying to shoot me
down these days but, since I've done it that way for over 40 years, I'm
much more comfortable with the 180 deg descending turn to final than
with a bomber pattern. And, when flying the tow plane, it gets me on
the ground much quicker and ready for the next tow.

On 6/4/2015 5:21 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Good points, which is why I started to fly the 180, but was looking for comments from other pilots as to the pros and cons. Also what is taught in other counties.

--
Dan Marotta

[Bill D]

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 5:26:59 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> The Air Force taught (and probably still does teach) the 360 deg
> overhead pattern as a way to keep aircraft inside the field
> boundaries.* I don't guess I need to worry much about Viet Cong
> trying to shoot me down these days but, since I've done it that way
> for over 40 years, I'm much more comfortable with the 180 deg
> descending turn to final than with a bomber pattern.* And, when
> flying the tow plane, it gets me on the ground much quicker and
> ready for the next tow.
>
>
>
>
> On 6/4/2015 5:21 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Good points, which is why I started to fly the 180, but was looking for comments from other pilots as to the pros and cons. Also what is taught in other counties.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

I actually like a 270 overhead pattern where the "IP" is the point where the "crosswind' passes over the runway. The downwind I like is about a 1/2 mile out from the runway and the turn from downwind to final requires a gentle bank with plenty of opportunity for adjustments.

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:26:59 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

> I don't guess I need to worry much about Viet Cong
> trying to shoot me down these days...

I'm waiting for someone to mistake a silently thermaling glider for an FBI surveillance aircraft.

[Bill D]

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:18:57 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:26:59 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> > I don't guess I need to worry much about Viet Cong
> > trying to shoot me down these days...
>
> I'm waiting for someone to mistake a silently thermaling glider for an FBI surveillance aircraft.

You don't have to wait. Shooters have been putting holes in low flying airplanes since there were airplanes.

[[email protected]]

"It seems like I could shallow the bank"

That's the only thing I see in your posts that might be a concern - depending on how shallow a turn you mean. Writings by Tom Knauff and Derek Piggott as well as the standard procedure taught according to my national organization specify a well banked turn on base and final. The slow rate of turn in a shallow bank can encourage over application of rudder and we know where that can lead. It's also damn near impossible to get most gliders to stall from a well banked turn. In every one I've flown if you fly at the recommended minimum approach speed with full brakes (on many gliders denoted by the yellow triangle mark on the ASI these days) and then roll in to a 40 degree or so banked turn you can then pull the elevator back to the stop without provoking a stall - they run out of elevator authority before they come close to a stall. I've tried it in all the club gliders except the DG300 we just bought (haven't had a chance as it's usually being flown by someone else when I've finished flying my own ship)>

At my field we don't have much room in the pattern because a 5000 foot high steep mountain ridge parallel to the runway is very close to the edge of the field. The result is that our base leg is pretty short, lasting not much more than a few seconds so we are almost doing a single 180 to final really. It's tight enough though that the turns have to be well banked. We've never once had a stall-spin on base/final in decades of operation even though our overall safety record is average at best. I sometimes wonder if the type of circuit forced upon us by geography might be part of the reason why.

[[email protected]]

There is much more to this, and many other safety related subjects, that are not well described in newsgroup sound bites. The reality is the first few seconds of every flight and the last few seconds of every flight are statistically the most hazardous, and require adequate pilot knowledge and skills.

A few dollars invested in popular glider flight training manuals will help ensure your safety and enjoyment of the sport.

It is said, "If you don't have it here. . ." (pointing to head.)

"You can't have it here . . ." (pointing to hand holding the control stick.)

Tom Knauff

[Dan Marotta]

Well said!

If you've flown 90 deg patterns for all or most of your flying career
and switch to a 180 deg descending turn, you'll be less safe. The
reverse is also true.

On 6/5/2015 7:23 AM, wrote:
> There is much more to this, and many other safety related subjects, that are not well described in newsgroup sound bites. The reality is the first few seconds of every flight and the last few seconds of every flight are statistically the most hazardous, and require adequate pilot knowledge and skills.
>
> A few dollars invested in popular glider flight training manuals will help ensure your safety and enjoyment of the sport.
>
> It is said, "If you don't have it here. . ." (pointing to head.)
>
> "You can't have it here . . ." (pointing to hand holding the control stick.)
>
> Tom Knauff

--
Dan Marotta

[Ralph Jones[_3_]]

On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 18:32:33 -0700 (PDT), Bill D >
wrote:

>On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:18:57 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:26:59 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>
>> > I don't guess I need to worry much about Viet Cong
>> > trying to shoot me down these days...
>>
>> I'm waiting for someone to mistake a silently thermaling glider for an FBI surveillance aircraft.
>
>You don't have to wait. Shooters have been putting holes in low flying airplanes since there were airplanes.

The Goodyear Blimps pick up holes all the time.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:36:07 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> On the open bird I put in flaps on downwind and leave them alone, schempp,
> on the 18 AS, with larger flap deflection I only put in landing flap on final when
> landing is assured,Thoughts comments, different way of doing things?

And why is a landing not assured while on downwind?

I fly a ASH-26E and try to fly a steep pattern, so will often apply full flap on downwind or base, and rarely on final if for some reason the pattern was flown lower than normal.

A classic airplane pattern is to chop the throttle abeam the numbers and the steep approach makes it very easy to judge a precision touchdown.

5Z

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I guess "landing assured" was a bad choice of words, should have said short final. I am asking because I wanted know what other pi,it's were doing. The Schempp gliders I had flown do not have nearly as much flap/ drag in landing configuration. I used to fly a Cessna 340 with huge split flaps, and the way to fly that bird was to put on the last bit of flap on short final (landing assured).

[Bob Pasker]

To say that there is only one safe way to land is ludicrous.

The stall/spin in the pattern issue isn't the type of landing pattern, it's poor judgment (eg misjudging the wind gradient, arriving short, etc) that exposes poor skills (inside rudder, pulling elevator, failure to maintain 1..5Vso, improper spoiler use, etc)

if you can't do 45, downwinds, base, 180s, 270s, overhead/Racetrack, crosswinds and tailwinds, and land where you want you're a machine and not a pilot, no matter how many 500km days you've had this week.

The issue for glider pilots is that the sport and community rewards competitions and OLC points, not doing pattern work. Pattern work is for students. And doing pattern work is what improves landing skill.

Next time your the only one in the pattern at your home field on a calmer day, try some thing different

[WAVEGURU]

With 343 OLC flights logged this season, I agree that most pilots could use more landing practice.

Boggs