Re: Looping a 2-33

[[email protected]]

every 2-33 manual i have seen says mild aerobatcs to 80 mph can be done (1-5 in link below). To loop a 2-33 is not dangerous, if you know what you are doing.


http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/SGS_233__Schweizer__Flight_Manual_D7C2581F1DF8E.pd f

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 5:41:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> every 2-33 manual i have seen says mild aerobatcs to 80 mph can be done (1-5 in link below). To loop a 2-33 is not dangerous.

You sir are dangerously uninformed about aerobatics in Schweitzer gliders

Service Bulletin 'SA-003 Aerobatics in Schweizer Sailplane 25 Mar 1987'

supersedes the POH. Aerobatics are not approved.

A scan of the SB can be downloaded from http://www.klsoaring.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=2:service-letters&Itemid=6

[Dan Marotta]

While they were awaiting modification to the main spars for cracks, we
did 3-g loops (plus all the other aerobatics) in the T-33a. After the
mods, it was back to 7.33 g. The only difference being the entry
airspeed and altitude gained/lost. But we were much younger then and
totally immortal...

On 6/18/2015 4:47 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 5:41:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> every 2-33 manual i have seen says mild aerobatcs to 80 mph can be done (1-5 in link below). To loop a 2-33 is not dangerous.
> You sir are dangerously uninformed about aerobatics in Schweitzer gliders
>
> Service Bulletin 'SA-003 Aerobatics in Schweizer Sailplane 25 Mar 1987'
>
> supersedes the POH. Aerobatics are not approved.
>
> A scan of the SB can be downloaded from http://www.klsoaring.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=2:service-letters&Itemid=6

--
Dan Marotta

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 5:47:18 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 5:41:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > every 2-33 manual i have seen says mild aerobatcs to 80 mph can be done (1-5 in link below). To loop a 2-33 is not dangerous.
>
> You sir are dangerously uninformed about aerobatics in Schweitzer gliders
>
> Service Bulletin 'SA-003 Aerobatics in Schweizer Sailplane 25 Mar 1987'
>
> supersedes the POH. Aerobatics are not approved.
>
> A scan of the SB can be downloaded from http://www.klsoaring.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=2:service-letters&Itemid=6


The Schweizer Service Bulletin SA-003 refers to an older FAR defining "Aerobatic Flight". The new FAR is 91.303. Same parameters.
Read it and interpret it as you like. A known "hot dog" pilot pulled a wing off a 1-26 in Florida attempting aerobatics, which may have been the catalyst for this Service Bulletin. (Intervention needed at the club level for hot doggin' in club sailplanes and towplanes?)

Don't assume, read the FAA Definition of "Aerobatics" in FAR 91.303. No it is NOT the 30 degree nose up and 60 degree bank rule -- that's for wearing parachutes per FAR 91.307(c)

Also in 91.307(c) note that the only rating the spin training proficiency is "required" is for flight instructor. All other spin training flights require a parachute (with a current inspection.)

And just to clarify, spin training is not included (but stalls are required) in FAR part 61 for student solo, private and commercial pre-checkride training, however it is absolutely essential to teach the importance of coordinated flight and spin recoveries before solo, from spins that may occur in low altitude turns (low "save" or non-standard pattern), after a low-energy low pass, an uncoordinated base to final "overshoot" turn, a turn back after a low "PT3", when thermaling, when attempting cloud flying or "hot-doggin' "at any altitude.

By the way, I know that FAA inspectors are watching your videos on YouTube! So hold my beer and watch this . . .

I like chandelles and looping my new Schleicher ASK-21. It is the main aerobatic trainer in Europe. Because I could, I had it certificated at import into the USA as "Aerobatic".
But I REALLY enjoy teaching "soaring" . . . reading the sky, bracketing thermals, getting high and going cross-country. Isn't that what we REALLY do, as "lame" as that may seem to some?

If you want to experience or learn sailplane aerobatics, go to an instructor that specializes in it, in a sailplane properly certificated (and with a "G" meter.) For example, see the monthly full page ad inside the front cover of your SOARING magazine (Arizona Soaring.)

Using up MY 9 lives, one or two at a time in west Texas, USA . . .

Burt

[Bill T]

Big difference between a 2-33 and a T-33a

BillT

[Dan Marotta]

'Bout the same glide ratio... 12:1 :-D

On 6/18/2015 6:26 PM, Bill T wrote:
> Big difference between a 2-33 and a T-33a
>
> BillT

--
Dan Marotta

[WAVEGURU]

Has there ever been a structural failure of a 2-33 doing loops?

Boggs

[[email protected]]

As I like to say, "in aviation the convenient and the unnecessary are invitations to an accident".

And isn't anybody going to comment on the Security 150? Come on people!

MM

[WAVEGURU]

Soaring itself is not necessary so should we all stay on the ground just to be safe?

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 5:47:18 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

> You sir are dangerously uninformed about aerobatics in Schweitzer gliders
>
> Service Bulletin 'SA-003 Aerobatics in Schweizer Sailplane 25 Mar 1987'
>
> supersedes the POH. Aerobatics are not approved.

Did you actually read the Service Bulletin? It says "Aerobatics are not approved or RECOMMENDED" - because "the structural design levels of the sailplane could be exceeded".

Really? A lot of pilots exceed the structural design levels of their gliders without having to resort to fancy aerobatics - plain old takeoffs and landings seem to do just fine!

As has been posted elsewhere in this thread, this was just a cop-out by Schweizer to limit liability. Probably a good business move in the US, but it has NOTHING to do with the suitability of Schweizer gliders to do some aerobatics. The 2-32 is an excellent case in point - anyone who ever watched Les Horvath's airshow act in his yellow 2-32 can attest to that! And there is plenty of video of 1-26s being happily looped and rolled.

That being said, I'd be more concerned with the age of some of those horrible beasts!

Do yourself a favor and get some acro training (if you haven't already) - perhaps you will understand better what the load limits of an aircraft really mean. If you can't loop a glider safely within it's load and speed limits, you are the one who is "dangerously uninformed about aerobatics"!

Kirk
66

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, June 19, 2015 at 10:51:37 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:

> Did you actually read the Service Bulletin? It says "Aerobatics are not approved or RECOMMENDED" - because "the structural design levels of the sailplane could be exceeded".

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 5:41:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> every 2-33 manual I have seen says mild aerobatcs to 80 mph can be done (1-5 in link below). To loop a 2-33 is not dangerous. <

Mik cites 2-33 POH to underscore his claim that 'To loop a 2-33 is not dangerous. He overlooks that Service Bulletin 'SA-003 Aerobatics in Schweizer Sailplane 25 Mar 1987' supersedes the POH.

That is a black and white case of being 'uninformed'. It's irresponsible (aka dangerous) to propagate misinformation wrt the manufacturer's position on the suitability of an aircraft for aerobatics.

That's my only point. Anyone who chooses to do aerobatics in a 2-33 should be aware of the manufacturer's position and in particular they should be aware that the POH was superseded by a service bulletin.

WRT how I will choose to fly a 2-33, the accumulated abuse and neglect of most 2-33s outweighs the possibility that SA-003 was 'liability dodging BS' back in 1987 (28 years ago).

[Dan Marotta]

Ok, I'll bite... What about the Security 150? Too small?

I have a 280 sq ft ram air 'chute. Probably way overkill, but I ordered
it before I took the training. I'm happy that, in the absence of high
winds (at Moriarty?) I can do a zero speed (vertical and horizontal)
landing with it.

On 6/18/2015 11:19 PM, wrote:
> As I like to say, "in aviation the convenient and the unnecessary are invitations to an accident".
>
> And isn't anybody going to comment on the Security 150? Come on people!
>
> MM

--
Dan Marotta

[Nick[_5_]]

> I have a 280 sq ft ram air 'chute.* Probably way overkill, but I
> ordered it before I took the training.* I'm happy that, in the
> absence of high winds (at Moriarty?) I can do a zero speed (vertical
> and horizontal) landing with it.


How fast does it open and what's the minimum altitude?

[Dan Marotta]

From my jumping I'd estimate about 3 to 3 1/2 seconds, but that's
simply by counting from drogue deployment to full canopy. Of course
they say 1,000' minimum but, if I got hit on downwind and the nose
started down, I think I'd have a better chance with the 'chute than with
riding the glider to the ground. With the sport rigs the automatic
baro/timer for the reserve fires at 1,000', IIRC, and the 'chute seems
fully opened by about 500'.

On 6/19/2015 12:13 PM, Nick wrote:
>> I have a 280 sq ft ram air 'chute. Probably way overkill, but I
>> ordered it before I took the training. I'm happy that, in the
>> absence of high winds (at Moriarty?) I can do a zero speed (vertical
>> and horizontal) landing with it.
>
> How fast does it open and what's the minimum altitude?

--
Dan Marotta

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Not to already beat a dead horse, but Galen Fisher is a great instructor with years of instruction given. I am sure he is and was safe to loop a 2-33.. Most people cannot loop a helicopter either, but those that can are well qualified to so. Bob Hoover did things with a twin commander (not aerobatic aircraft)like loops, rolls etc., that only a few pilots in the world could do. Both Galen and Bob keep the aircraft with the envelope when performing these maneuvers.

[Dan Marotta]

Very well said!

On 6/19/2015 2:21 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Not to already beat a dead horse, but Galen Fisher is a great instructor with years of instruction given. I am sure he is and was safe to loop a 2-33. Most people cannot loop a helicopter either, but those that can are well qualified to so. Bob Hoover did things with a twin commander (not aerobatic aircraft)like loops, rolls etc., that only a few pilots in the world could do. Both Galen and Bob keep the aircraft with the envelope when performing these maneuvers.

--
Dan Marotta

[Nick[_5_]]

On Friday, 19 June 2015 20:59:40 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
> From my jumping I'd estimate about 3 to 3 1/2 seconds, but that's
> simply by counting from drogue deployment to full canopy.* Of course
> they say 1,000' minimum but, if I got hit on downwind and the nose
> started down, I think I'd have a better chance with the 'chute than
> with riding the glider to the ground.* With the sport rigs the
> automatic baro/timer for the reserve fires at 1,000', IIRC, and the
> 'chute seems fully opened by about 500'.
>

That will be because you've got a runner slowing down the deployment. That's why emergency chutes don't have them, they open with a bang, are smaller so they open faster. You hit the ground faster, but a lot less slower than if your chute hasn't opened completely.

[Dan Marotta]

Interesting comment about the runner, I learned it as a slider, but a
rose by any other name...

I watched the first inspection/repack of my ram air chute and I though I
saw a slider. I know they have them on the sport rigs which I've jumped
with. I'll have to ask my rigger. I know the base jumpers don't use a
slider.

On 6/20/2015 3:38 AM, Nick wrote:
> On Friday, 19 June 2015 20:59:40 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> From my jumping I'd estimate about 3 to 3 1/2 seconds, but that's
>> simply by counting from drogue deployment to full canopy. Of course
>> they say 1,000' minimum but, if I got hit on downwind and the nose
>> started down, I think I'd have a better chance with the 'chute than
>> with riding the glider to the ground. With the sport rigs the
>> automatic baro/timer for the reserve fires at 1,000', IIRC, and the
>> 'chute seems fully opened by about 500'.
>>
> That will be because you've got a runner slowing down the deployment. That's why emergency chutes don't have them, they open with a bang, are smaller so they open faster. You hit the ground faster, but a lot less slower than if your chute hasn't opened completely.

--
Dan Marotta

[Nick[_5_]]

On Saturday, 20 June 2015 16:31:25 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Interesting comment about the runner, I learned it as a slider, but
> a rose by any other name...
>
>
>
> I watched the first inspection/repack of my ram air chute and I
> though I saw a slider.* I know they have them on the sport rigs
> which I've jumped with.* I'll have to ask my rigger.* I know the
> base jumpers don't use a slider.
>

You might get it in the groin, but that's why they don't have them. Or at least mine doesn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYGN1Y2bfIs Shows runners in use.