Slider on a ram air parachute

[Dan Marotta]

Recently somebody made a comment about my emergency ram air parachute
and whether or not it has a slider to to slow deployment. I checked with
my rigger and jump instructor and here's what he said:

Your parachute has a slider. The maximum airspeed for slider-off deployments is 65 mph. In an aircraft emergency, you will almost always be deploying at a higher speed than that, so the slider is absolutely necessary. Deploying slider-off at high speed can damage the gear and maybe the jumper. Your parachute is designed to open as fast as possible without causing damage. It should take about 3 seconds/300 feet for it to open in most situations. Exactly the same as a round parachute of roughly equivalent area.


--
Dan Marotta

[Nick[_5_]]

On Monday, 22 June 2015 17:59:25 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Recently somebody made a comment about my emergency ram air
> parachute and whether or not it has a slider to to slow deployment.*
> I checked with my rigger and jump instructor and here's what he
> said:
>
>
>
> Your parachute has a slider. The maximum airspeed for slider-off deployments is 65 mph. In an aircraft emergency, you will almost always be deploying at a higher speed than that, so the slider is absolutely necessary. Deploying slider-off at high speed can damage the gear and maybe the jumper.. Your parachute is designed to open as fast as possible without causing damage. It should take about 3 seconds/300 feet for it to open in most situations. Exactly the same as a round parachute of roughly equivalent area.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

I'd agree with that. That is why an emergency chute makes more sense.

http://www.parachuteshop.com/Softie%20Parachutes.htm#The_Preserve_1

Specifications:
Nominal Diameter - 24 feet
Maximum Open Diameter- 14 feet
Weight - 7 Pounds
Maximum Pilot Weight- 220 Pounds
Maximum Deployment Speed- 172 MPH
Rate of Descent for 200 Pounds - 16 FPS
Steerable

Notice the higher deployment speed.

The other one to watch is pulling at high altitude. It's a TAS limit.

[Nick[_5_]]

On Monday, 22 June 2015 17:59:25 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Recently somebody made a comment about my emergency ram air
> parachute and whether or not it has a slider to to slow deployment.
> I checked with my rigger and jump instructor and here's what he
> said:
>
>
>
> Your parachute has a slider. The maximum airspeed for slider-off deployments is 65 mph. In an aircraft emergency, you will almost always be deploying at a higher speed than that, so the slider is absolutely necessary. Deploying slider-off at high speed can damage the gear and maybe the jumper.. Your parachute is designed to open as fast as possible without causing damage. It should take about 3 seconds/300 feet for it to open in most situations. Exactly the same as a round parachute of roughly equivalent area.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

http://www.strongparachutes.com/emergency/faq.asp

At what altitude should I deploy my emergency parachute?
Deployment time and distance depend on many factors including airspeed. You should plan on pulling the ripcord by 500 feet. This will give you a safety margin. Generally, opening times are 2 to 3 seconds and altitude loss would be 150 feet (45.7m) to 300 feet (91m). A good practice to have is knowing your "decision deck" or that altitude at which you MUST make your decision to either land with the airplane or leave and use your emergency parachute. Always give yourself a margin for unexpected events.

[[email protected]]

Sliders are only removed from ramair parachutes for fixed object jumping or dopey stunts. Any 'already in the air' deployments will be likely be at a speed that causes damage either to equipment or jumper. Jumper first, the gear can take more then most people. You really don't want to use a nonslider equipped ramair parachute over 50 mph or so.

[Nick[_5_]]

On Monday, 22 June 2015 19:31:26 UTC+1, wrote:
> Sliders are only removed from ramair parachutes for fixed object jumping or dopey stunts. Any 'already in the air' deployments will be likely be at a speed that causes damage either to equipment or jumper. Jumper first, the gear can take more then most people. You really don't want to use a nonslider equipped ramair parachute over 50 mph or so.

Exactly. However, do you want to use a ram air parachute when it deploys slower than an emergency chute?

[[email protected]]

Ramair reserves with sliders open faster and more reliably then rounds. The only advantage to rounds is price and the difference isn't that great if you are buying new.

[J. Nieuwenhuize]

Op maandag 22 juni 2015 19:22:54 UTC+2 schreef Nick:
> On Monday, 22 June 2015 17:59:25 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Recently somebody made a comment about my emergency ram air
> > parachute and whether or not it has a slider to to slow deployment.*
> > I checked with my rigger and jump instructor and here's what he
> > said:
> >
> >
> >
> > Your parachute has a slider. The maximum airspeed for slider-off deployments is 65 mph. In an aircraft emergency, you will almost always be deploying at a higher speed than that, so the slider is absolutely necessary.. Deploying slider-off at high speed can damage the gear and maybe the jumper. Your parachute is designed to open as fast as possible without causing damage. It should take about 3 seconds/300 feet for it to open in most situations. Exactly the same as a round parachute of roughly equivalent area.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Dan Marotta
>
> I'd agree with that. That is why an emergency chute makes more sense.
>
> http://www.parachuteshop.com/Softie%20Parachutes.htm#The_Preserve_1
>
> Specifications:
> Nominal Diameter - 24 feet
> Maximum Open Diameter- 14 feet
> Weight - 7 Pounds
> Maximum Pilot Weight- 220 Pounds
> Maximum Deployment Speed- 172 MPH
> Rate of Descent for 200 Pounds - 16 FPS
> Steerable
>
> Notice the higher deployment speed.
>
> The other one to watch is pulling at high altitude. It's a TAS limit.
Unless you're going transsonic (flutter at 45000 ft?), it's an IAS or rather an EAS limit.

[Paul B[_2_]]

On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 07:57:03 UTC+10, wrote:
> Ramair reserves with sliders open faster and more reliably then rounds. The only advantage to rounds is price and the difference isn't that great if you are buying new.


I am about to get a new chute and I am very interested in the RamAir system, mainly because I am at the top of allowable weight range and not getting any younger, so a potentially lower vertical velocity is appealing. Whilst I have some skydiving experience, this was under round canopies and some forty years ago. I had a look at the ram Air chute at the parachuteshop.com and found some conflicting advise.

"The P-124 will deliver its max payload at an unbelievably slow 12.1 feet/second, allowing standup landings and requiring no jumper control input at the landing phase."

also

"the P-124 requires no control input from the jumper in the landing phase. Consequently there is no additional training required of aircrew personnel over and above what they receive on current systems."

but it also says this

"Because of the advanced characteristics of these canopy designs, the Sport Aviator model may only be used by individuals who either have ram-air jumping experience such as skydiving, or have received special training in the use and performance of these canopies. "

So I am somewhat confused. Can anyone shed some light on this please.

Thanks

Paul

[[email protected]]

Two different models. Sport is a regular skydiving reserve the Aviator is a large skydiving reserve detuned(simply lengthened steering lines.) Both have lower descent rates then round parachutes. If you can fly a glider you can fly a simple ramair parachute with little training.
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 1:45:01 AM UTC-4, Paul B wrote:
> On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 07:57:03 UTC+10, wrote:
> > Ramair reserves with sliders open faster and more reliably then rounds. The only advantage to rounds is price and the difference isn't that great if you are buying new.
>
>
> I am about to get a new chute and I am very interested in the RamAir system, mainly because I am at the top of allowable weight range and not getting any younger, so a potentially lower vertical velocity is appealing. Whilst I have some skydiving experience, this was under round canopies and some forty years ago. I had a look at the ram Air chute at the parachuteshop.com and found some conflicting advise.
>
> "The P-124 will deliver its max payload at an unbelievably slow 12.1 feet/second, allowing standup landings and requiring no jumper control input at the landing phase."
>
> also
>
> "the P-124 requires no control input from the jumper in the landing phase.. Consequently there is no additional training required of aircrew personnel over and above what they receive on current systems."
>
> but it also says this
>
> "Because of the advanced characteristics of these canopy designs, the Sport Aviator model may only be used by individuals who either have ram-air jumping experience such as skydiving, or have received special training in the use and performance of these canopies. "
>
> So I am somewhat confused. Can anyone shed some light on this please.
>
> Thanks
>
> Paul

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Google silver parachute ask Allen. He wrote an article regarding ram vs round emergency chutes. Very informative.

On Monday, June 22, 2015 at 9:59:25 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Recently somebody made a comment about my emergency ram air
> parachute and whether or not it has a slider to to slow deployment.*
> I checked with my rigger and jump instructor and here's what he
> said:
>
>
>
> Your parachute has a slider. The maximum airspeed for slider-off deployments is 65 mph. In an aircraft emergency, you will almost always be deploying at a higher speed than that, so the slider is absolutely necessary. Deploying slider-off at high speed can damage the gear and maybe the jumper.. Your parachute is designed to open as fast as possible without causing damage. It should take about 3 seconds/300 feet for it to open in most situations. Exactly the same as a round parachute of roughly equivalent area.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

It appears you misread what my rigger said. He said maximum deployment
speed *WITHOUT* a slider is 65 kts. I have a slider and I believe my
max opening speed is 150 kts. I have jumped with a similar chute and am
familiar with its flight characteristics which are, believe me, MUCH
better than a round chute with which I've only parasailed during AF
flight training. Given the generally high winds where I fly and the
rugged terrain, I'll take the higher forward speed and much higher
maneuvering abilities of my ram air chute to any round or conical canopy.

On 6/22/2015 11:22 AM, Nick wrote:
> On Monday, 22 June 2015 17:59:25 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Recently somebody made a comment about my emergency ram air
>> parachute and whether or not it has a slider to to slow deployment.
>> I checked with my rigger and jump instructor and here's what he
>> said:
>>
>>
>>
>> Your parachute has a slider. The maximum airspeed for slider-off deployments is 65 mph. In an aircraft emergency, you will almost always be deploying at a higher speed than that, so the slider is absolutely necessary. Deploying slider-off at high speed can damage the gear and maybe the jumper. Your parachute is designed to open as fast as possible without causing damage. It should take about 3 seconds/300 feet for it to open in most situations. Exactly the same as a round parachute of roughly equivalent area.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dan Marotta
> I'd agree with that. That is why an emergency chute makes more sense.
>
> http://www.parachuteshop.com/Softie%20Parachutes.htm#The_Preserve_1
>
> Specifications:
> Nominal Diameter - 24 feet
> Maximum Open Diameter- 14 feet
> Weight - 7 Pounds
> Maximum Pilot Weight- 220 Pounds
> Maximum Deployment Speed- 172 MPH
> Rate of Descent for 200 Pounds - 16 FPS
> Steerable
>
> Notice the higher deployment speed.
>
> The other one to watch is pulling at high altitude. It's a TAS limit.

--
Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

I've seen the result of using a round canopy in the high desert. I
opted for the controllability of a ram air canopy. It is an emergency
chute with similar opening characteristics to a round canopy. If you're
interested, here's a link to the manual:
http://www.rigginginnovations.com/files/Docuemnts/4/RI-AviatorMnl.pdf

On 6/22/2015 2:13 PM, Nick wrote:
> On Monday, 22 June 2015 19:31:26 UTC+1, wrote:
>> Sliders are only removed from ramair parachutes for fixed object jumping or dopey stunts. Any 'already in the air' deployments will be likely be at a speed that causes damage either to equipment or jumper. Jumper first, the gear can take more then most people. You really don't want to use a nonslider equipped ramair parachute over 50 mph or so.
> Exactly. However, do you want to use a ram air parachute when it deploys slower than an emergency chute?

--
Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

I took the training and have a P-124. It's rigged so that it cannot be
stalled. Otherwise it's pretty much the same as other ram air chutes.
You should take some training jumps with a ram air chute before doing it
for the first time alone. Since you have prior experience with jumping,
it should be a breeze rather being scared sh!tless as I was. Still, I
made 7 jumps and enjoyed each one after letting go of the airplane! The
sport rigs had more capability to stall the canopy, but that's the only
difference that I know of.

On 6/22/2015 11:44 PM, Paul B wrote:
> On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 07:57:03 UTC+10, wrote:
>> Ramair reserves with sliders open faster and more reliably then rounds. The only advantage to rounds is price and the difference isn't that great if you are buying new.
>
> I am about to get a new chute and I am very interested in the RamAir system, mainly because I am at the top of allowable weight range and not getting any younger, so a potentially lower vertical velocity is appealing. Whilst I have some skydiving experience, this was under round canopies and some forty years ago. I had a look at the ram Air chute at the parachuteshop.com and found some conflicting advise.
>
> "The P-124 will deliver its max payload at an unbelievably slow 12.1 feet/second, allowing standup landings and requiring no jumper control input at the landing phase."
>
> also
>
> "the P-124 requires no control input from the jumper in the landing phase. Consequently there is no additional training required of aircrew personnel over and above what they receive on current systems."
>
> but it also says this
>
> "Because of the advanced characteristics of these canopy designs, the Sport Aviator model may only be used by individuals who either have ram-air jumping experience such as skydiving, or have received special training in the use and performance of these canopies."
>
> So I am somewhat confused. Can anyone shed some light on this please.
>
> Thanks
>
> Paul

--
Dan Marotta

[JS]

Paul, et al:
Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
Jim

[Paul B[_2_]]

On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:
> Paul, et al:
> Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
> I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
> It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
> A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
> Jim

Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though.. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless :).

Cheers

Paul

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

And what is the result of using a round canopy in the high desert. Alan Silver had a good article on whether to use a ram air or round E chute. In the end the round has less potential for problems which could make a bad day even worse.


On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 9:08:12 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I've seen the result of using a round canopy in the high desert.* I
> opted for the controllability of a ram air canopy.* It is an
> emergency chute with similar opening characteristics to a round
> canopy.* If you're interested, here's a link to the manual:* http://www.rigginginnovations.com/files/Docuemnts/4/RI-AviatorMnl.pdf
>
>
>
>
> On 6/22/2015 2:13 PM, Nick wrote:
>
>
>
> On Monday, 22 June 2015 19:31:26 UTC+1, wrote:
>
>
> Sliders are only removed from ramair parachutes for fixed object jumping or dopey stunts. Any 'already in the air' deployments will be likely be at a speed that causes damage either to equipment or jumper. Jumper first, the gear can take more then most people. You really don't want to use a nonslider equipped ramair parachute over 50 mph or so.
>
>
> Exactly. However, do you want to use a ram air parachute when it deploys slower than an emergency chute?
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

<chuckle>

I made a long reply to Jonathan St. Cloud regarding his questions. I had
meant to post to the newsgroup so, Jonathan, if you see this, please
repost it to the newsgroup. I don't have a copy...

Dan

On 6/23/2015 5:36 PM, Paul B wrote:
> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:
>> Paul, et al:
>> Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
>> I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
>> It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
>> A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
>> Jim
> Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless :).
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul

--
Dan Marotta

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

In the high desert where I live there are almost always high winds (20+ kts), mix that with the low forward speed, high descent rate, and slow maneuvering capability of a round canopy (a four line cut would improve maneuverability and forward speed, but do you know how to do that? and would you?) AND the rugged terrain, and you have a mix to get beat up in the best case on landing and much worse if it's not your day.

The ram air chute flies a rectangular pattern just like a glider and, as an experienced glider pilot, I'm completely comfortable that I can put it down very near to where I choose due to the higher forward speed, lower descent speed, and higher maneuverability of the square canopy. That, plus I took the initiative to receive proper training from a licensed jump instructor and I made a number of jumps to prove to myself that I can do it.

In the past I was always a bit nervous at the possibility that I may someday have to jump. Not so any more.

Regard Alan's article - since I haven't seen it, I'll only comment on your take from it: I agree that the round is more benign in low wind conditions and decent terrain but, for the *trained* individual, I'll take the ram air chute any day. Yes, if you don't know what you're doing, you can easily get into trouble with a ram air canopy. That's why the manufacturer, and my rigger were very insistent that I take ground training and make several training jumps before wearing my emergency ram air equipment.
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:54:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> <chuckle>
>
>
>
> I made a long reply to Jonathan St. Cloud regarding his questions.*
> I had meant to post to the newsgroup so, Jonathan, if you see this,
> please repost it to the newsgroup.* I don't have a copy...
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> On 6/23/2015 5:36 PM, Paul B wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:
>
>
> Paul, et al:
> Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
> I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
> It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
> A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
> Jim
>
>
> Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless :).
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

[Paul B[_2_]]

On Thursday, 25 June 2015 06:25:23 UTC+10, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> In the high desert where I live there are almost always high winds (20+ kts), mix that with the low forward speed, high descent rate, and slow maneuvering capability of a round canopy (a four line cut would improve maneuverability and forward speed, but do you know how to do that? and would you?) AND the rugged terrain, and you have a mix to get beat up in the best case on landing and much worse if it's not your day.
>
> The ram air chute flies a rectangular pattern just like a glider and, as an experienced glider pilot, I'm completely comfortable that I can put it down very near to where I choose due to the higher forward speed, lower descent speed, and higher maneuverability of the square canopy. That, plus I took the initiative to receive proper training from a licensed jump instructor and I made a number of jumps to prove to myself that I can do it.
>
> In the past I was always a bit nervous at the possibility that I may someday have to jump. Not so any more.
>
> Regard Alan's article - since I haven't seen it, I'll only comment on your take from it: I agree that the round is more benign in low wind conditions and decent terrain but, for the *trained* individual, I'll take the ram air chute any day. Yes, if you don't know what you're doing, you can easily get into trouble with a ram air canopy. That's why the manufacturer, and my rigger were very insistent that I take ground training and make several training jumps before wearing my emergency ram air equipment.
> On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:54:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > <chuckle>
> >
> >
> >
> > I made a long reply to Jonathan St. Cloud regarding his questions.*
> > I had meant to post to the newsgroup so, Jonathan, if you see this,
> > please repost it to the newsgroup.* I don't have a copy...
> >
> >
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/23/2015 5:36 PM, Paul B wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:
> >
> >
> > Paul, et al:
> > Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
> > I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
> > It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
> > A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless :).
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Dan Marotta

One additional question. The round canopies are very forgiving, when it comes to body position when the ripcord is pulled. Are the square canopies similar, or is a more stable position, ie face down, not tumbling, required?

Cheers

Paul

[Dan Marotta]

I don't know why there would be a difference, but I would speculate that
the ram air canopy has a slight advantage since it leaves the container
tightly packed in a deployment bag. The canopy stays pretty much in the
bag until at or near full line extension and, on my rig, the drogue
pulls off the bag and both the drogue and bag are lost. At least that's
what I recall. Maybe some youtube videos could share some light on
that. My rigger also strongly advised that I *NOT* try to catch the
drogue and bag lest I get them caught in the chute. He also advised I
throw away the rip cord immediately after pulling it. Replacements are
less expensive than smacking the ground at high speed...

As to position; leaving the jump plane I was taught to assume a stable
arch before deployment. Hopefully I'll do just that if I have to leave
my glider. Of course if I'm hit in the traffic pattern, it's canopy
off, belts open, jump, pull. No delays...

Hope that helps.

On 6/24/2015 11:39 PM, Paul B wrote:
> On Thursday, 25 June 2015 06:25:23 UTC+10, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> In the high desert where I live there are almost always high winds (20+ kts), mix that with the low forward speed, high descent rate, and slow maneuvering capability of a round canopy (a four line cut would improve maneuverability and forward speed, but do you know how to do that? and would you?) AND the rugged terrain, and you have a mix to get beat up in the best case on landing and much worse if it's not your day.
>>
>> The ram air chute flies a rectangular pattern just like a glider and, as an experienced glider pilot, I'm completely comfortable that I can put it down very near to where I choose due to the higher forward speed, lower descent speed, and higher maneuverability of the square canopy. That, plus I took the initiative to receive proper training from a licensed jump instructor and I made a number of jumps to prove to myself that I can do it.
>>
>> In the past I was always a bit nervous at the possibility that I may someday have to jump. Not so any more.
>>
>> Regard Alan's article - since I haven't seen it, I'll only comment on your take from it: I agree that the round is more benign in low wind conditions and decent terrain but, for the *trained* individual, I'll take the ram air chute any day. Yes, if you don't know what you're doing, you can easily get into trouble with a ram air canopy. That's why the manufacturer, and my rigger were very insistent that I take ground training and make several training jumps before wearing my emergency ram air equipment.
>> On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:54:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> <chuckle>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I made a long reply to Jonathan St. Cloud regarding his questions.
>>> I had meant to post to the newsgroup so, Jonathan, if you see this,
>>> please repost it to the newsgroup. I don't have a copy...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/23/2015 5:36 PM, Paul B wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul, et al:
>>> Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
>>> I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
>>> It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
>>> A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless :).
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Dan Marotta
> One additional question. The round canopies are very forgiving, when it comes to body position when the ripcord is pulled. Are the square canopies similar, or is a more stable position, ie face down, not tumbling, required?
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul

--
Dan Marotta

[Paul B[_2_]]

Thanks Dan, I have read somewhere, and I cannot find a reference, that the square canopies were more prone to entanglement, that is all. I am aware of the appropriate position to dsploy in, but as you suggest, this may not be always possible, due to available time, possible panic etc.

I would also disagree with your rigger regarding the ripcord replacement. If you do smack the ground, I do not think you are likely to need a replacement :).

Cheers

Paul

[Dan Marotta]

Maybe I stated the rip cord thing wrongly. What I meant to say is to
get rid of the rip cord lest it get tangled in the suspension lines.
It's better to toss it away and buy a new one later than to get all
tangled up and die with the rip cord in my hand. Same idea with the
drogue and deployment bag. And yes, in my seven training jumps I think
I had twisted lines 3 or 4 times. We trained for that before the first
jump and it was never an issue. Also, on the day of my first jump, a
girl had a line over malfunction and a spinning chute. She cut away
successfully and landed under her reserve. I won't have a reserve...

An anecdote: At the jump club's annual party they used old round chutes
to jump into a large lake (Elephant Butte Reservoir in southern New
Mexico). It was very enlightening to compare full deployment time for a
round chute to a square chute. The round chutes took noticeably longer
to fully deploy followed by considerable oscillation before
stabilizing. I'm sold on the square chute.

On 6/26/2015 12:40 AM, Paul B wrote:
> Thanks Dan, I have read somewhere, and I cannot find a reference, that the square canopies were more prone to entanglement, that is all. I am aware of the appropriate position to dsploy in, but as you suggest, this may not be always possible, due to available time, possible panic etc.
>
> I would also disagree with your rigger regarding the ripcord replacement. If you do smack the ground, I do not think you are likely to need a replacement :).
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul

--
Dan Marotta

[[email protected]]

Squares are better all around. As Dan notes if pilots observed both types being jumped they'd open their wallets right then and upgrade.
On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 12:28:49 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Maybe I stated the rip cord thing wrongly.* What I meant to say is
> to get rid of the rip cord lest it get tangled in the suspension
> lines.* It's better to toss it away and buy a new one later than to
> get all tangled up and die with the rip cord in my hand.* Same idea
> with the drogue and deployment bag.* And yes, in my seven training
> jumps I think I had twisted lines 3 or 4 times.* We trained for that
> before the first jump and it was never an issue.* Also, on the day
> of my first jump, a girl had a line over malfunction and a spinning
> chute.* She cut away successfully and landed under her reserve.* I
> won't have a reserve...
>
>
>
> An anecdote:* At the jump club's annual party they used old round
> chutes to jump into a large lake (Elephant Butte Reservoir in
> southern New Mexico).* It was very enlightening to compare full
> deployment time for a round chute to a square chute.* The round
> chutes took noticeably longer to fully deploy followed by
> considerable oscillation before stabilizing.* I'm sold on the square
> chute.
>
>
>
>
> On 6/26/2015 12:40 AM, Paul B wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks Dan, I have read somewhere, and I cannot find a reference, that the square canopies were more prone to entanglement, that is all. I am aware of the appropriate position to dsploy in, but as you suggest, this may not be always possible, due to available time, possible panic etc.
>
> I would also disagree with your rigger regarding the ripcord replacement. If you do smack the ground, I do not think you are likely to need a replacement :).
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

This really ****es me off! I had been out of soaring for 13 years, just getting back in and purchased a brand new Butler chute for 2,300. Oh, well, hope I never need it anyway!

On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 6:16:51 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Squares are better all around. As Dan notes if pilots observed both types being jumped they'd open their wallets right then and upgrade.
> On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 12:28:49 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

[Dan Marotta]

If it's any consolation, my ram air rig cost $2,700. Cheap insurance
over the life of the equipment.

On 6/27/2015 1:21 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> This really ****es me off! I had been out of soaring for 13 years, just getting back in and purchased a brand new Butler chute for 2,300. Oh, well, hope I never need it anyway!
>
> On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 6:16:51 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>> Squares are better all around. As Dan notes if pilots observed both types being jumped they'd open their wallets right then and upgrade.
>> On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 12:28:49 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

--
Dan Marotta