ASH-25 flutter

[[email protected]]

http://youtu.be/fUIidefCaA8

Wow, hope this isn't common!

[Dave Nadler]

Not flutter...

[Ross[_3_]]

That actually has a more technical name.
It is more commonly known as the Delore Shuffle

[Joe]

Dave Nadler explained:

>Not flutter...

Not helpful.

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

Time for another JJ story. We were finishing at Ephrata at 50 feet and 140 knots in our ASH-25 (with 2 meter wing extensions). As I crossed the finish line, I pulled up and rolled left,. At about 45 degree left bank, I applied right stick to stop the left roll............IT KEPT ROLLING LEFT................I then applied full right stick and rudder and the left roll stopped, but by then we were in a 75 degree left turn. The nose was up, so as airspeed slowed, the ship slowly responder to right stick commands.
After landing, I talked to the guy running the finish gate who was looking right down our wing as we flew through the gate...........He said it was the scariest thing he had ever seen! The wing tip leading edge, twisted down and doug-in, resulting in the un-commanded left turn, the rest of the wing looked like a sign wave. The wing extension had been somewhat blessed by Schleicher who had us install some 12# of lead in the outboard leading edge. I believe it was to prevent flutter, but probably aided the twist problem. Any aerodynamic experts explain why the lead was placed in the leading edge? Didn't it help twist the wing leading edge down?

Not too long after that, I sold the ship and retired to the peace and tranquility of the finish cylinder in sports class.
JJ

[Andrew[_14_]]

Sounds like a aileron control reversal issue. It's both an aerodynamic and structural issue just like flutter. Although, unlike flutter it doesn't excite a natural frequency but rather a divergence of the structure. A term for it is aeroelastic divergence. The torsional load produced by the deflected aileron twists the wing which changes the angle of attack of the wing enough to reverse the rolling direction.

This is not my area of expertise, but I have been educated on it. The fix is usually to increase torsional stiffness or limit control effectiveness or lower the redline speed. The divergence speed can be different than the flutter speed. Wish I could comment about the leading edge lead... I can't think of an explanation for now.

On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 10:07:58 AM UTC-4, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Time for another JJ story. We were finishing at Ephrata at 50 feet and 140 knots in our ASH-25 (with 2 meter wing extensions). As I crossed the finish line, I pulled up and rolled left,. At about 45 degree left bank, I applied right stick to stop the left roll............IT KEPT ROLLING LEFT................I then applied full right stick and rudder and the left roll stopped, but by then we were in a 75 degree left turn. The nose was up, so as airspeed slowed, the ship slowly responder to right stick commands.
> After landing, I talked to the guy running the finish gate who was looking right down our wing as we flew through the gate...........He said it was the scariest thing he had ever seen! The wing tip leading edge, twisted down and doug-in, resulting in the un-commanded left turn, the rest of the wing looked like a sign wave. The wing extension had been somewhat blessed by Schleicher who had us install some 12# of lead in the outboard leading edge.. I believe it was to prevent flutter, but probably aided the twist problem.. Any aerodynamic experts explain why the lead was placed in the leading edge? Didn't it help twist the wing leading edge down?
>
> Not too long after that, I sold the ship and retired to the peace and tranquility of the finish cylinder in sports class.
> JJ

[[email protected]]

I've seen it in power planes and regardless of what you call it
it WILL take the wing off and send you to the morgue.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 4:27:19 AM UTC+3, wrote:
> http://youtu.be/fUIidefCaA8
>
> Wow, hope this isn't common!

At a speed where the engine is out and not over revving? That's not flutter, that's wiggling the controls...

[[email protected]]

You've got to be kidding.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 27 Jun 2015 15:55:02 -0700, victoriallake08 wrote:

> You've got to be kidding.

If you want to see real flutter, take a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQI3AWpTWhM


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Ventus_a]

You've got to be kidding.

It is done by pulling in and out of landing flap enough to flex the wing tips up and down as the mixer moves the ailerons between positive and negative settings

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 7:07:58 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Time for another JJ story. We were finishing at Ephrata at 50 feet and 140 knots in our ASH-25 (with 2 meter wing extensions). As I crossed the finish line, I pulled up and rolled left,. At about 45 degree left bank, I applied right stick to stop the left roll............IT KEPT ROLLING LEFT................I then applied full right stick and rudder and the left roll stopped, but by then we were in a 75 degree left turn. The nose was up, so as airspeed slowed, the ship slowly responder to right stick commands.
> After landing, I talked to the guy running the finish gate who was looking right down our wing as we flew through the gate...........He said it was the scariest thing he had ever seen! The wing tip leading edge, twisted down and doug-in, resulting in the un-commanded left turn, the rest of the wing looked like a sign wave. The wing extension had been somewhat blessed by Schleicher who had us install some 12# of lead in the outboard leading edge.. I believe it was to prevent flutter, but probably aided the twist problem.. Any aerodynamic experts explain why the lead was placed in the leading edge? Didn't it help twist the wing leading edge down?
>
> Not too long after that, I sold the ship and retired to the peace and tranquility of the finish cylinder in sports class.
> JJ

Happened to my Dad doing Max Q pull-ups while flight testing an F-86. The aileron acted like a trim tab for the entire wing. Not fun at transonic speeds.

I don't have a precise answer for the lead in the leading edge. Aeroelastics are complex, but presumably they want the leading edge to twist downward under loading so that there is a restoring force from whatever input perturbs the wing. Make sense that this could increase the resonant frequency and delay the onset speed for flutter and/or add some damping effect, but obviously it had a second consequence for you.

9B

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 06:18:29 -0700, Andy Blackburn wrote:

> On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 7:07:58 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>> Time for another JJ story. We were finishing at Ephrata at 50 feet and
>> 140 knots in our ASH-25 (with 2 meter wing extensions). As I crossed
>> the finish line, I pulled up and rolled left,. At about 45 degree left
>> bank, I applied right stick to stop the left roll............IT KEPT
>> ROLLING LEFT...............I then applied full right stick and rudder
>> and the left roll stopped, but by then we were in a 75 degree left
>> turn. The nose was up, so as airspeed slowed, the ship slowly responder
>> to right stick commands.
>> After landing, I talked to the guy running the finish gate who was
>> looking right down our wing as we flew through the gate...........He
>> said it was the scariest thing he had ever seen! The wing tip leading
>> edge, twisted down and doug-in, resulting in the un-commanded left
>> turn, the rest of the wing looked like a sign wave. The wing extension
>> had been somewhat blessed by Schleicher who had us install some 12# of
>> lead in the outboard leading edge. I believe it was to prevent flutter,
>> but probably aided the twist problem. Any aerodynamic experts explain
>> why the lead was placed in the leading edge? Didn't it help twist the
>> wing leading edge down?
>>
>> Not too long after that, I sold the ship and retired to the peace and
>> tranquility of the finish cylinder in sports class.
>> JJ
>
> Happened to my Dad doing Max Q pull-ups while flight testing an F-86.
> The aileron acted like a trim tab for the entire wing. Not fun at
> transonic speeds.
>
> I don't have a precise answer for the lead in the leading edge.
> Aeroelastics are complex, but presumably they want the leading edge to
> twist downward under loading so that there is a restoring force from
> whatever input perturbs the wing. Make sense that this could increase
> the resonant frequency and delay the onset speed for flutter and/or add
> some damping effect, but obviously it had a second consequence for you.
>
It also helps delay flutter onset if the wing CG is in front of the
torsional axis. Adding lead in the LE or putting weights in front of the
LE on stingers are both ways of moving the wing's CG forward. I heard
that years ago from a fellow who worked at the Royal Aircraft
Establishment at Farnborough and have seen the stingers used to sort out
flutter problems on models.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 10:05:01 +0100, Ventus_a wrote:

> ;905822 Wrote:
>> You've got to be kidding.
>
> It is done by pulling in and out of landing flap enough to flex the wing
> tips up and down as the mixer moves the ailerons between positive and
> negative settings

Well spotted. Its clear from the video that the flaps are in landing
setting during the initial part of the flypast. You can see them clearly
during the initial approach and the fact that the wings are almost
straight is another clue. Watch the next ASH-25 approach and landing when
you're at the field and you can easily see the usual curve in the wings
flatten out as landing flap is selected and the mixer moves the ailerons
to a negative setting.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Ventus_a]

;905832']On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 7:07:58 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Time for another JJ story. We were finishing at Ephrata at 50 feet and 140 knots in our ASH-25 (with 2 meter wing extensions). As I crossed the finish line, I pulled up and rolled left,. At about 45 degree left bank, I applied right stick to stop the left roll............IT KEPT ROLLING LEFT................I then applied full right stick and rudder and the left roll stopped, but by then we were in a 75 degree left turn. The nose was up, so as airspeed slowed, the ship slowly responder to right stick commands.
After landing, I talked to the guy running the finish gate who was looking right down our wing as we flew through the gate...........He said it was the scariest thing he had ever seen! The wing tip leading edge, twisted down and doug-in, resulting in the un-commanded left turn, the rest of the wing looked like a sign wave. The wing extension had been somewhat blessed by Schleicher who had us install some 12# of lead in the outboard leading edge.. I believe it was to prevent flutter, but probably aided the twist problem.. Any aerodynamic experts explain why the lead was placed in the leading edge? Didn't it help twist the wing leading edge down?

Not too long after that, I sold the ship and retired to the peace and tranquility of the finish cylinder in sports class.
JJ

Happened to my Dad doing Max Q pull-ups while flight testing an F-86. The aileron acted like a trim tab for the entire wing. Not fun at transonic speeds.

I don't have a precise answer for the lead in the leading edge. Aeroelastics are complex, but presumably they want the leading edge to twist downward under loading so that there is a restoring force from whatever input perturbs the wing. Make sense that this could increase the resonant frequency and delay the onset speed for flutter and/or add some damping effect, but obviously it had a second consequence for you.

9B

I would agree with your assesment of the reasons for the lead. As seen with the Nimbus 4T/M when being modified to 850 kg MAUW, it has among other things lead added to the leading edge out towards the tip as noted in the following; http://www.schempp-hirth.com/fileadmin/tmdocs/868-10-3490.pdf.

Colin