PowerFlarm for Rent/Loan for Elmira, U.S.A.?

[[email protected]]

I'm headed to Elmira in 3 weeks for the Std. Nats and want to know what my options are for getting FLARM equipped. I missed a few seasons so tracked the whole PowerFLARM revolution via RAS. Not excited about buying one just yet. I understand there were some early units for rent at one time. Panel/cockpit space is limited in my glider so that's a factor. Portable sounds like the right approach for this. Comments/suggestions? Email me at jnbearden at AOL or the gmail address that shows in Google groups. Thx.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

[[email protected]]

Williams Soaring rents portable Flarms. They make it easy, even including prepaid return shipping. I think it is about $50.
DLB .

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Just curious do most pilots have a Flarm? I had been out of Soaring for over a decade, back to soaring now with a glider in production. I was excited to learn about Flarms, I know they are mandatory in France, I assumed most pilots would want the safety offered. Is there a reason pilots have not purchased Flarms?

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Tuesday, June 30, 2015 at 6:53:25 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Just curious do most pilots have a Flarm? I had been out of Soaring for over a decade, back to soaring now with a glider in production. I was excited to learn about Flarms, I know they are mandatory in France, I assumed most pilots would want the safety offered. Is there a reason pilots have not purchased Flarms?

Welcome back!

Generally FLARM goes with an aircraft, not a pilot. The adoption of PowerFLARM is around 75% of registered aircraft in Europe as of 2013, but is considered nearly 100% of active aircraft. As you mentioned, it is mandatory in France.

As of about a year ago, the adoption in the US was less than 25% of registered gliders, but many aircraft on the US registration database are destroyed, inoperative, in museums or rarely flown. Penetration has gone up since then and for most active pilots it is considered an essential piece of equipment. I don't have precise statistics, but the number of PowerFLARMs sold in the US exceeds the total annual unique posters on OLC and well exceeds the number of pilots who have flown at least one contest in the past three years, so if you intend to fly cross-country or race or if you intend to fly more than a few times per year in the company of other glider pilots, your peer group is likely PowerFlarm-equipped and would appreciate it if you were too,

If, on the other hand, you mainly intend to use your glider to fly circuits at or near a busy power airport you should get a Mode S transponder.

Posted from Nephi, UT where we have 60+ gliders flying - 100% with PowerFLARM.

9B

[Dan Marotta]

Panel space is extremely limited in my LAK-17a and I feel that sticking
something on top is more of a risk due to blocked view outside. Many
folks disagree with me. I chose instead to install a Mode S transponder
under the cockpit floor(!) with the control head in the panel and a Zaon
MRX PCAS on top of the panel. It has a much smaller frontal area than
the PF units I've seen. I've looked at the PF Mouse but, where I fly,
being visible to airliners is more important to me.

If you want to fly in contests or on congested glider routes, a PF is
probably the way to go.

On 6/30/2015 10:54 PM, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 30, 2015 at 6:53:25 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> Just curious do most pilots have a Flarm? I had been out of Soaring for over a decade, back to soaring now with a glider in production. I was excited to learn about Flarms, I know they are mandatory in France, I assumed most pilots would want the safety offered. Is there a reason pilots have not purchased Flarms?
> Welcome back!
>
> Generally FLARM goes with an aircraft, not a pilot. The adoption of PowerFLARM is around 75% of registered aircraft in Europe as of 2013, but is considered nearly 100% of active aircraft. As you mentioned, it is mandatory in France.
>
> As of about a year ago, the adoption in the US was less than 25% of registered gliders, but many aircraft on the US registration database are destroyed, inoperative, in museums or rarely flown. Penetration has gone up since then and for most active pilots it is considered an essential piece of equipment. I don't have precise statistics, but the number of PowerFLARMs sold in the US exceeds the total annual unique posters on OLC and well exceeds the number of pilots who have flown at least one contest in the past three years, so if you intend to fly cross-country or race or if you intend to fly more than a few times per year in the company of other glider pilots, your peer group is likely PowerFlarm-equipped and would appreciate it if you were too,
>
> If, on the other hand, you mainly intend to use your glider to fly circuits at or near a busy power airport you should get a Mode S transponder.
>
> Posted from Nephi, UT where we have 60+ gliders flying - 100% with PowerFLARM.
>
> 9B

--
Dan Marotta

[John Carlyle]

Dan,

I agree that blocking your view is to be avoided. I also agree that if you fly in airline congested areas you must have a transponder, and if you fly in contests you need a PowerFlarm.

I have a LS-8, which has a cramped panel like your LAK-17. But I've managed to shoehorn in both a Mode S transponder and a PowerFlarm core, and the only thing that shows above the glare shield is the 1" tall 3/16" diameter top of the Flarm antenna. Average Flarm range is 7 km, with maximum distance out to 25 km, so I'm quite pleased.

It's true that figuring out where to put things isn't easy. It took several trials until I was able to figure out where to put the boxes for the Trig and the PowerFlarm core! Later, when I installed a Butterfly Vario, the inertial unit had to go under the seat.

-John, Q3


On Wednesday, July 1, 2015 at 10:12:12 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Panel space is extremely limited in my LAK-17a and I feel that
> sticking something on top is more of a risk due to blocked view
> outside.* Many folks disagree with me.* I chose instead to install a
> Mode S transponder under the cockpit floor(!) with the control head
> in the panel and a Zaon MRX PCAS on top of the panel.* It has a much
> smaller frontal area than the PF units I've seen.* I've looked at
> the PF Mouse but, where I fly, being visible to airliners is more
> important to me.

[Darryl Ramm]

There is no "PF Mouse" aka "PowerFLARM Mouse" the LXNav FlarmMouse is not FCC approved as far as I can see, so I'm not understanding how it could be for sale in the USA. Maybe W&W folks could explain since it's listed on their web site. FCC vendor and product code # would be great to settle that question.

If you want a Flarm unit in the USA, the PowerFLARM brick is the way to go unless you absolutely need a portable device. Yes the PowerFLARM portable is too large to easily install for many owners.

On Wednesday, July 1, 2015 at 7:12:12 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Panel space is extremely limited in my LAK-17a and I feel that
> sticking something on top is more of a risk due to blocked view
> outside.* Many folks disagree with me.* I chose instead to install a
> Mode S transponder under the cockpit floor(!) with the control head
> in the panel and a Zaon MRX PCAS on top of the panel.* It has a much
> smaller frontal area than the PF units I've seen.* I've looked at
> the PF Mouse but, where I fly, being visible to airliners is more
> important to me.
>
>
>
> If you want to fly in contests or on congested glider routes, a PF
> is probably the way to go.
>
>
>
>
> On 6/30/2015 10:54 PM, Andy Blackburn
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 30, 2015 at 6:53:25 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>
>
> Just curious do most pilots have a Flarm? I had been out of Soaring for over a decade, back to soaring now with a glider in production. I was excited to learn about Flarms, I know they are mandatory in France, I assumed most pilots would want the safety offered. Is there a reason pilots have not purchased Flarms?
>
>
> Welcome back!
>
> Generally FLARM goes with an aircraft, not a pilot. The adoption of PowerFLARM is around 75% of registered aircraft in Europe as of 2013, but is considered nearly 100% of active aircraft. As you mentioned, it is mandatory in France.
>
> As of about a year ago, the adoption in the US was less than 25% of registered gliders, but many aircraft on the US registration database are destroyed, inoperative, in museums or rarely flown. Penetration has gone up since then and for most active pilots it is considered an essential piece of equipment. I don't have precise statistics, but the number of PowerFLARMs sold in the US exceeds the total annual unique posters on OLC and well exceeds the number of pilots who have flown at least one contest in the past three years, so if you intend to fly cross-country or race or if you intend to fly more than a few times per year in the company of other glider pilots, your peer group is likely PowerFlarm-equipped and would appreciate it if you were too,
>
> If, on the other hand, you mainly intend to use your glider to fly circuits at or near a busy power airport you should get a Mode S transponder.
>
> Posted from Nephi, UT where we have 60+ gliders flying - 100% with PowerFLARM.
>
> 9B
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

[Dan Marotta]

Thanks John.

I could possibly shoehorn the PF box below my seat as is the Trig and my
Streak might function as a display. There's no more room for wiring
from anywhere aft of the forward bulkhead to the panel and, believe me,
I've tried. For my gear and spoiler switches I had to rip out
upholstery, lay the wires in the glue and replace the upholstery. I
don't want to go through that again. A mouse with a small display might
work but, for now, the PCAS serves me well.

On 7/1/2015 9:12 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
> Dan,
>
> I agree that blocking your view is to be avoided. I also agree that if you fly in airline congested areas you must have a transponder, and if you fly in contests you need a PowerFlarm.
>
> I have a LS-8, which has a cramped panel like your LAK-17. But I've managed to shoehorn in both a Mode S transponder and a PowerFlarm core, and the only thing that shows above the glare shield is the 1" tall 3/16" diameter top of the Flarm antenna. Average Flarm range is 7 km, with maximum distance out to 25 km, so I'm quite pleased.
>
> It's true that figuring out where to put things isn't easy. It took several trials until I was able to figure out where to put the boxes for the Trig and the PowerFlarm core! Later, when I installed a Butterfly Vario, the inertial unit had to go under the seat.
>
> -John, Q3
>
>
> On Wednesday, July 1, 2015 at 10:12:12 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Panel space is extremely limited in my LAK-17a and I feel that
>> sticking something on top is more of a risk due to blocked view
>> outside. Many folks disagree with me. I chose instead to install a
>> Mode S transponder under the cockpit floor(!) with the control head
>> in the panel and a Zaon MRX PCAS on top of the panel. It has a much
>> smaller frontal area than the PF units I've seen. I've looked at
>> the PF Mouse but, where I fly, being visible to airliners is more
>> important to me.

--
Dan Marotta

[Ramy[_2_]]

Dan, if I recall correct your Streak is running XCSoar. As such it can not be used as a flarm display. As much as I like XCSoar, it's flarm support is close to useless. I opened many enhancement requests in attempt to bring the flarm support to SeeYou level but they are not getting any attention. So you will need the small butterfly display which you should be able to find a place to put instead of your Zaon As I did. You'll also get a more reliable and accurate Mode C alerts than the Zaon provides. Sell your Zaon to cover some of your cost.

Ramy

[Dan Marotta]

Sounds like a possibility...

On 7/1/2015 10:54 PM, Ramy wrote:
> Dan, if I recall correct your Streak is running XCSoar. As such it can not be used as a flarm display. As much as I like XCSoar, it's flarm support is close to useless. I opened many enhancement requests in attempt to bring the flarm support to SeeYou level but they are not getting any attention. So you will need the small butterfly display which you should be able to find a place to put instead of your Zaon As I did. You'll also get a more reliable and accurate Mode C alerts than the Zaon provides. Sell your Zaon to cover some of your cost.
>
> Ramy

--
Dan Marotta

[kirk.stant]

Dan, I've managed to cram in a useful PF setup in my LS6 (small panel), if that helps. I use the brick as my primary GPS and igc logger, driving my SN10 and Oudie2 - which both by the way have their own Flarm displays and warnings, so you could get away with the little LED flarm display. I also have a Zaon MRX and use it in our towplanes and club gliders, but the PF has the huge advantage of also showing ADS-B equipped aircraft, and they show up really well on the Oudie map (you get what you pay for ;^).

I think LK8000 shows flarm traffic? What about TopHat?

Anyway - I feel blind nowadays when I'm flying without good traffic detection - and nowadays there is really no good reason not to have it - and the combination of a Mode S xponder and a PF is about the best setup you can have (unless you can fit an APG-82 AESA radar in your glider...)

Kirk

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 2, 2015 at 5:54:10 AM UTC+1, Ramy wrote:
> Dan, if I recall correct your Streak is running XCSoar. As such it can not be used as a flarm display. As much as I like XCSoar, it's flarm support is close to useless. I opened many enhancement requests in attempt to bring the flarm support to SeeYou level but they are not getting any attention. So you will need the small butterfly display which you should be able to find a place to put instead of your Zaon As I did. You'll also get a more reliable and accurate Mode C alerts than the Zaon provides. Sell your Zaon to cover some of your cost.
>
> Ramy

It's definitely true that XCSoar is unsuitable for use as a primary FLARM display, but this is somewhat by design. XCSoar's 'FLARM radar' was intended to complement the 'LED clock' type original FLARM displays, and warnings are intentionally left to dedicated hardware.

[Bob Pasker]

I'm a consummate renter, and I have a PF Portable. The big issue is where to mount it in a rental glider. Most places are OK with a temporary fix. Mounting it on top of the panel, however, blocks the compass, but I have a compass on my suction-cup mounted handheld.

I have never gotten a FLARM alert, but I do see xponders.

--b

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Blocks compass? I do not think I have ever, other than training, used a compass, in powered aircraft or sailplanes. In sailplanes it is easy to look at the topographic features and see my rough heading, plus with GPS.... In powder aircraft the DG is the preferred instrument instead of compass. never had a complete power failure other than when I got the red light over temp warning due to my nicad on fire, was on the ground in seconds, thanks to muscle memory training.

[Dan Marotta]

I had a DG failure once while flying a T-33 over the Alaska Range east
of Mt. McKinley in the weather. The weapons controllers suggested I
descend to clear weather and go home. Ummm.. Let's see... Minimum
safe altitude within 100 miles of home plate was 16,000' and the
mountains where I was were 16,000' MSL. So we completed the intercept
and I joined up on the F-4E and he led me towards home until we got down
to VMC.

Otherwise, I've never used a compass, either...

On 7/3/2015 10:23 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Blocks compass? I do not think I have ever, other than training, used a compass, in powered aircraft or sailplanes. In sailplanes it is easy to look at the topographic features and see my rough heading, plus with GPS.... In powder aircraft the DG is the preferred instrument instead of compass. never had a complete power failure other than when I got the red light over temp warning due to my nicad on fire, was on the ground in seconds, thanks to muscle memory training.

--
Dan Marotta

[Bob Pasker]

The only time I've used a compass is flying needle/ball/compass on my instrument checkride

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:55:09 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I had a DG failure once while flying a T-33 over the Alaska Range
> east of Mt. McKinley in the weather.* The weapons controllers
> suggested I descend to clear weather and go home.* Ummm..* Let's
> see...* Minimum safe altitude within 100 miles of home plate was
> 16,000' and the mountains where I was were 16,000' MSL.* So we
> completed the intercept and I joined up on the F-4E and he led me
> towards home until we got down to VMC.
>
>
>
> Otherwise, I've never used a compass, either...
>
>
>
>
> On 7/3/2015 10:23 AM, Jonathan St.
> Cloud wrote:
>
>
>
> Blocks compass? I do not think I have ever, other than training, used a compass, in powered aircraft or sailplanes. In sailplanes it is easy to look at the topographic features and see my rough heading, plus with GPS.... In powder aircraft the DG is the preferred instrument instead of compass. never had a complete power failure other than when I got the red light over temp warning due to my nicad on fire, was on the ground in seconds, thanks to muscle memory training.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan Marotta

[Ramy[_2_]]

Indeed the XCSoar flarm functionality is mostly for situational awareness but not for collision alert. As such can not be used instead of a primary display like butterfly. There is no reason it can not be enhanced though.

Ramy

[Surge]

On Saturday, 4 July 2015 16:28:30 UTC+2, Ramy wrote:
> Indeed the XCSoar flarm functionality is mostly for situational awareness but not for collision alert. As such can not be used instead of a primary display like butterfly. There is no reason it can not be enhanced though.
>
> Ramy

The only problem is that XCSoar runs on a wide range of hardware and operating systems so stability , reliability and performance cannot be ensured by the XCSoar developers.
Do you really want to trust your life with a system that may not work correctly in a critical situation?

I think the legal issues also dissuade the main developers from adding full support but there is nothing stopping someone else from adding the code themselves. Most of the code is already there.

Personally I prefer a dedicated FLARM display with a black background so that the FLARM traffic is clearly visible at all times with a tactical range selected. By adding FLARM traffic onto a moving map display you normally lose the high contrast because of the map background and the range/zoom may constantly be changing between cruise and thermal modes.