C-182 towplane

[[email protected]]

Good used Pawnee tugs are getting rare. Actually, very rare. What else is there that isn't 50+ years old?

There is a C-182 at Nephi hauling skydivers which has Wing-X wing-tip extensions which increase its load capacity, rate-of-climb and ceiling. It is said this also makes a C-182 into a good towplane for high density altitude operations. Another C-182 is being up-engined to a Lycoming IO-580 producing 315 HP. There is a C-182 STC for a Tost Hook available. Together these mods might make a decent "tow-anything" tug.

So what would all this cost?

A decent 1980 C-182Q is about $110,000 used. The IO-580 upgrade runs about $150,000 if one is able to re-use everything panel forward from the original Cont. O-470 installation - $180,000 if you can't. The Wing-X conversion runs about $11,000 installed. I'm guessing the Tost hook is about $5,000 intalled. Throw in another $30,000 for whatever is wrong with a 35 year-old airplane and one gets a decent tug for roughly $310,000 - $340,000. Ouch!

Alternatively, one might consider a brand new 260HP Embraer EMB 201R, a built-to-purpose glider tug made in Brazil. If one is worried about AVGAS availability, it can be ordered with a Lyc-540 engine that uses 100% ethanol. Indications are it costs about $270,000 FOB at the factory but shipping and import duties may push that to $300,000.

A new 200HP Husky sells for about $270,000 but its not that great with heavy gliders.

What do you suppose tows will cost?

[Ross[_3_]]

I know where a 1980 Pawnee is, low hours, 4 bladed Hofmann prop, and silencer.
Re-covered in 2006.
Price roughly $70,000 plus postage

There are plenty of alternatives to a 182, and no real reason to modify it like that.
Try a Dakota. Works well. Know where one of those is too. Bit more than the Pawnee though.

EZ

[Dan Marotta]

I'll ferry whatever for you for expenses!

On 7/9/2015 4:49 PM, Ross wrote:
> I know where a 1980 Pawnee is, low hours, 4 bladed Hofmann prop, and silencer.
> Re-covered in 2006.
> Price roughly $70,000 plus postage
>
> There are plenty of alternatives to a 182, and no real reason to modify it like that.
> Try a Dakota. Works well. Know where one of those is too. Bit more than the Pawnee though.
>
> EZ

--
Dan Marotta

[[email protected]]

Absolutely nothing wrong with well cared for 50 year old 182s and they are relatively plentiful. I have a 1964 182G low total time & low time engine, beautiful paint and interior with a legal Schweizer hook that I have had for thirty odd years and have towed with and behind zillions of times. With one non-fat pilot and light fuel load it tows better than a 150 Super Cub. About like a 180 Super Cub. The original 0-470R Cont. is bulletproof with plentiful parts available. Legally burns auto fuel too. What's not to like?
I have hardly flown mine in several years. I'm too old for medical. I keep it in my air-conditioned basement hangar just to look at and cry over. I should sell it and probably would to some deserving club. Also it's a fine cross country back up. I'm just musing around and don't know what I'll do.
Bottom line. Cessna 182 is good tow plane as is.







On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 6:05:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Good used Pawnee tugs are getting rare. Actually, very rare. What else is there that isn't 50+ years old?
>
> There is a C-182 at Nephi hauling skydivers which has Wing-X wing-tip extensions which increase its load capacity, rate-of-climb and ceiling. It is said this also makes a C-182 into a good towplane for high density altitude operations. Another C-182 is being up-engined to a Lycoming IO-580 producing 315 HP. There is a C-182 STC for a Tost Hook available. Together these mods might make a decent "tow-anything" tug.
>
> So what would all this cost?
>
> A decent 1980 C-182Q is about $110,000 used. The IO-580 upgrade runs about $150,000 if one is able to re-use everything panel forward from the original Cont. O-470 installation - $180,000 if you can't. The Wing-X conversion runs about $11,000 installed. I'm guessing the Tost hook is about $5,000 intalled. Throw in another $30,000 for whatever is wrong with a 35 year-old airplane and one gets a decent tug for roughly $310,000 - $340,000. Ouch!
>
> Alternatively, one might consider a brand new 260HP Embraer EMB 201R, a built-to-purpose glider tug made in Brazil. If one is worried about AVGAS availability, it can be ordered with a Lyc-540 engine that uses 100% ethanol.. Indications are it costs about $270,000 FOB at the factory but shipping and import duties may push that to $300,000.
>
> A new 200HP Husky sells for about $270,000 but its not that great with heavy gliders.
>
> What do you suppose tows will cost?

[Surge]

For what it's worth the Cessna 182 is a fairly popular tug aircraft in South Africa.
I know of a private operator and two clubs nearby who tug using unmodified 182's in similar hot and high conditions as Nephi.

Magalies Gliding Club operates a 182 (not sure which variant) tug at 5102 feet MSL in temperatures up to about 95 degrees Fahrenheit (35C) on a 5000 foot grass runway.
The grass increases the rolling resistance significantly yet the 182 is still adequate for tugging the heaviest ballasted, twin seaters in such conditions.
The club's 180HP Super Cub accelerates faster (probably due to less mass) but battles to climb at a safe speed when tugging heavy, ballasted gliders.

Pros:
- The 182 is more marketable should you wish to sell it later.
- Spares are usually more plentiful (especially around my part of the woods).
- It can be hired out during the week to cover costs while the club is not using it. There isn't much of a hire and fly demand for a Pawnee.

Cons:
- Price
- Expensive to maintain and operate (compared to a Super Cub)

The 182 is very thirsty compared to a 180HP Super Cub so much so that a single tug rate is charged and the club's Super Cub cross subsidizes the 182.
I can try get the fuel burn rates from our tug pilots if that will help.

Now a winch launch on the other hand ...

[jfitch]

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 10:56:32 PM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
> For what it's worth the Cessna 182 is a fairly popular tug aircraft in South Africa.
> I know of a private operator and two clubs nearby who tug using unmodified 182's in similar hot and high conditions as Nephi.
>
> Magalies Gliding Club operates a 182 (not sure which variant) tug at 5102 feet MSL in temperatures up to about 95 degrees Fahrenheit (35C) on a 5000 foot grass runway.
> The grass increases the rolling resistance significantly yet the 182 is still adequate for tugging the heaviest ballasted, twin seaters in such conditions.
> The club's 180HP Super Cub accelerates faster (probably due to less mass) but battles to climb at a safe speed when tugging heavy, ballasted gliders.
>
> Pros:
> - The 182 is more marketable should you wish to sell it later.
> - Spares are usually more plentiful (especially around my part of the woods).
> - It can be hired out during the week to cover costs while the club is not using it. There isn't much of a hire and fly demand for a Pawnee.
>
> Cons:
> - Price
> - Expensive to maintain and operate (compared to a Super Cub)
>
> The 182 is very thirsty compared to a 180HP Super Cub so much so that a single tug rate is charged and the club's Super Cub cross subsidizes the 182.
> I can try get the fuel burn rates from our tug pilots if that will help.
>
> Now a winch launch on the other hand ...

We used 182s for years at Truckee, density altitudes up to about 9800 ft and typically 8000. We have Pawnees now and like them better, but the 182s worked.

[son_of_flubber]

I saw one guy tow a glider behind a Pitts Special.

[Jock Proudfoot]

At 18:30 19 July 2015, son_of_flubber wrote:
>I saw one guy tow a glider behind a Pitts Special.
>
http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleT
ype/ArticleView/articleId/476/Spitfire-Glider-Tugs.aspx

[Philip van de Donk]

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 12:05:20 AM UTC+2, wrote:
> Good used Pawnee tugs are getting rare. Actually, very rare. What else is there that isn't 50+ years old?
>
> There is a C-182 at Nephi hauling skydivers which has Wing-X wing-tip extensions which increase its load capacity, rate-of-climb and ceiling. It is said this also makes a C-182 into a good towplane for high density altitude operations. Another C-182 is being up-engined to a Lycoming IO-580 producing 315 HP. There is a C-182 STC for a Tost Hook available. Together these mods might make a decent "tow-anything" tug.
>
> So what would all this cost?
>
> A decent 1980 C-182Q is about $110,000 used. The IO-580 upgrade runs about $150,000 if one is able to re-use everything panel forward from the original Cont. O-470 installation - $180,000 if you can't. The Wing-X conversion runs about $11,000 installed. I'm guessing the Tost hook is about $5,000 intalled. Throw in another $30,000 for whatever is wrong with a 35 year-old airplane and one gets a decent tug for roughly $310,000 - $340,000. Ouch!
>
> Alternatively, one might consider a brand new 260HP Embraer EMB 201R, a built-to-purpose glider tug made in Brazil. If one is worried about AVGAS availability, it can be ordered with a Lyc-540 engine that uses 100% ethanol.. Indications are it costs about $270,000 FOB at the factory but shipping and import duties may push that to $300,000.
>
> A new 200HP Husky sells for about $270,000 but its not that great with heavy gliders.
>
> What do you suppose tows will cost?

Wat about using an ULM, such as a Dynamic WT9 as a towplane? They use them in Europe more and more instead of the classics Piper Pawnee, Aviat Husky, Piper Cup, or Robin DR400 etc.

Advantages of those type of airplanes are the good power/weight ratio, decent fuel economy and relatively low operating costs.

[CindyB[_2_]]

> Wat about using an ULM, such as a Dynamic WT9 as a towplane? They use them in Europe more and more instead of the classics Piper Pawnee, Aviat Husky, Piper Cup, or Robin DR400 etc.
>
> Advantages of those type of airplanes are the good power/weight ratio, decent fuel economy and relatively low operating costs.

Jock - that is entirely too sensible. In the USA we are limited by our FAA to using tugs that carry Standard or Restricted Use airworthiness certification. Under Restricted A/W we can specify glider-towing, and achieve approval for that function. Even though FAA has determined under a different part ( pilot certification) that towing is NOT carrying passengers, they haven't aligned the A/W side of the house to realize that the tug and the glider are separately responsible for their own safety of airframes. So we are limited to mostly Standard A/W machinery for towing.

And the 182 is a great towplane, for all the reasons given above. I ran one for nearly 20 years, and towed a Nationals with Pawnees and a Brave and stayed fully even in the rotation, at density alts of ~8500msl. Pull out the rear seat to eliminate folks asking for ride-alongs, and get better climb rates.

[[email protected]]

Actually you can tow with an SLSA towplane for hire in the USA. Pilot has to be a private pilot or higher but pone can be a light sport.

Cessna 182 makes for a great towplane!