13.5 Meter World Championships

[Tony[_5_]]

I'm headed off today to start the journey to Lithuania. Should be there late next week. Follow along here:

https://ussoaringteam2015lithuania.wordpress.com/

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 9:03:26 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> I'm headed off today to start the journey to Lithuania. Should be there late next week. Follow along here:
>
> https://ussoaringteam2015lithuania.wordpress.com/

Happy scrutineering (and good luck!).

-Evan

[BobW]

On 7/18/2015 7:03 AM, Tony wrote:
> I'm headed off today to start the journey to Lithuania. Should be there
> late next week. Follow along here:
>
> https://ussoaringteam2015lithuania.wordpress.com/
>

Thanks for the heads-up/cool/studly...and have fun, comrade!

Bob W.

[Craig Funston]

On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 9:00:49 AM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
> On 7/18/2015 7:03 AM, Tony wrote:
> > I'm headed off today to start the journey to Lithuania. Should be there
> > late next week. Follow along here:
> >
> > https://ussoaringteam2015lithuania.wordpress.com/
> >
>
> Thanks for the heads-up/cool/studly...and have fun, comrade!
>
> Bob W.

Good luck Tony. Thanks for the heads-up. We'll be watching the blog.

Craig
7Q

[Tony[_5_]]

Great news! We unloaded the container today in Logatec, Slovenia, and are headed towards Lithuania tomorrow. Daily updates on the Blog.

https://ussoaringteam2015lithuania.wordpress.com/

[Gliding Guru]

Why would anyone spend money on a 13.5 glider? Big mistake of the IGC to
permit the class. Even bigger mistake of the Manufacturers to build
something for it. Glorified PW5's and we all know how that ended!

[Gliding Guru]

Why would anyone spend money on a 13.5 glider? Big mistake of the IGC to
permit the class. Even bigger mistake of the Manufacturers to build
something for it. Glorified PW5's and we all know how that ended!

[Gliding Guru]

Why would anyone spend money on a 13.5 glider? Big mistake of the IGC to
permit the class. Even bigger mistake of the Manufacturers to build
something for it. Glorified PW5's and we all know how that ended!

[Kevin Neave[_2_]]

My ideal glider would be something with Discus performance & FES.
Many of the pilots in my club fly Discus / LS4 performance gliders, or
lower performance club class.

The GP14 claims to have mid 40s performance, as does the original Discus.
If there was a FES option I'd seriously consider it.

The problem with the PW5 was it had no performance & was ugly as sin.

KN

At 15:07 29 July 2015, Gliding Guru wrote:
>Why would anyone spend money on a 13.5 glider? Big mistake of the IGC t
>permit the class. Even bigger mistake of the Manufacturers to buil
>something for it. Glorified PW5's and we all know how that ended!
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 7:00:10 PM UTC+1, Kevin Neave wrote:
> My ideal glider would be something with Discus performance & FES.
> Many of the pilots in my club fly Discus / LS4 performance gliders, or
> lower performance club class.
>
> The GP14 claims to have mid 40s performance, as does the original Discus.
> If there was a FES option I'd seriously consider it.
>
> The problem with the PW5 was it had no performance & was ugly as sin.
>
> KN


Why have a FES in a GP14 when you could have the retractable electric self-launcher version - and forego the extra drag and ugliness of the prop moustache?

[Al McNamara]

Why have a FES in a GP14 when you could have the retractable electric
>self-launcher version - and forego the extra drag and ugliness of the
prop
>moustache?

Speed of starting.

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 6:15:10 PM UTC-4, Al McNamara wrote:
> Why have a FES in a GP14 when you could have the retractable electric
> >self-launcher version - and forego the extra drag and ugliness of the
> prop
> >moustache?
>
> Speed of starting.

Looking forward to someone using FES recover to recover from a premature termination of tow.

[Renny[_2_]]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 4:31:34 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 6:15:10 PM UTC-4, Al McNamara wrote:
> > Why have a FES in a GP14 when you could have the retractable electric
> > >self-launcher version - and forego the extra drag and ugliness of the
> > prop
> > >moustache?
> >
> > Speed of starting.
>
> Looking forward to someone using FES recover to recover from a premature termination of tow.

Well, I've had my Lak17B FES for almost 4 years and fortunately I have never had a premature termination of tow, but I always have it ready to go during a tow should it be needed. On several occasions I have used it instead of having to land for a relight. It does reliably start within a second or two and there is no mast to extend which definitely saves time. Now, I have seen a video of an auto launch on the FES website where a LAK 17a is able to climb away after dropping the rope at perhaps 200(?) feet, so I do believe it can safely be done as long as there is sufficient altitude. What exactly would be "sufficient" altitude depends on many factors and I am sure could be the subject of a very interesting discussion....Thx - Renny

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 6:31:34 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 6:15:10 PM UTC-4, Al McNamara wrote:
> > Why have a FES in a GP14 when you could have the retractable electric
> > >self-launcher version - and forego the extra drag and ugliness of the
> > prop
> > >moustache?
> >
> > Speed of starting.
>
> Looking forward to someone using FES recover to recover from a premature termination of tow.

I will assume we will see a "broken glider w/FES" from a PTT if they're NOT FLYING THE GLIDER.
Sorta like the guy (decades ago) that had a PTT (at a "famous site in the US") call his wife and say, "I'm going to crash!", just before he crashed.

I guess the "aviate" bit was lost on them.......

[Renny[_2_]]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 5:02:46 PM UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 6:31:34 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 6:15:10 PM UTC-4, Al McNamara wrote:
> > > Why have a FES in a GP14 when you could have the retractable electric
> > > >self-launcher version - and forego the extra drag and ugliness of the
> > > prop
> > > >moustache?
> > >
> > > Speed of starting.
> >
> > Looking forward to someone using FES recover to recover from a premature termination of tow.
>
> I will assume we will see a "broken glider w/FES" from a PTT if they're NOT FLYING THE GLIDER.
> Sorta like the guy (decades ago) that had a PTT (at a "famous site in the US") call his wife and say, "I'm going to crash!", just before he crashed.
>
> I guess the "aviate" bit was lost on them.......

Hopefully, one can actually aviate and rotate one FES switch at the same time....

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 7:08:25 PM UTC-4, Renny wrote:

> Hopefully, one can actually aviate and rotate one FES switch at the same time....

Drop nose, turn on FES (I guess).

Have you practiced this in your Lak17B? Do you have to worry about running into the tow plane or do you turn slightly to the right?

[Renny[_2_]]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 6:31:13 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 7:08:25 PM UTC-4, Renny wrote:
>
> > Hopefully, one can actually aviate and rotate one FES switch at the same time....
>
> Drop nose, turn on FES (I guess).
>
> Have you practiced this in your Lak17B? Do you have to worry about running into the tow plane or do you turn slightly to the right?

Drop nose, turn to the right and turn the FES throttle knob clockwise is the "plan." I have done this at altitude several times and running into the towplane has not been an issue.

Now, to bring us back to the 13.5 meter World's, many of the ships will have the FES (almost or perhaps all of the Silent 2s), so it will be very interesting to see how all of these FES equipped ships perform at the Worlds!

[Sean Fidler]

Also the GP14 is a glider with 45:1 performance, electric self launch technology (no external propellors or gaps like FES) and its cost is around 80k US with trailer (from what I have heard). The introductory price was far less IF you jumped in early and ordered this spring.

If all of this is true, and I have no reason to believe that it is not, the GP14 will be a MAJOR game changer in the sport of soaring.

Self launch is an absolutely key feature to offer to todays soaring pilots. Couple that with 45:1 performance and getting all of that capability in a sub 100k new package. That is nothing short of incredible compared to what is currently offered by other manufacturers for 160-200k. The Silent is 120k I believe.

From what I have seen the GP14's general tech, design, manufacturing innovations and overall quality...it is truly impressive. This comes from several who actually visited the factory recently. These are NOT folks who are easily impressed by glider manufacturing quality...to say the least.

It would be a very short step to take this design philosophy and scale it 1..5 or 4.5 meters to achieve 15m or 18m, etc.

Ill be honest. I don't care if I am flying in a class that is 60:1, 50:1 or 40:1 as long as the best pilots (and a significant number of pilots) are buzzing about it. I look forward to seeing the GP14 arrive in the USA (Michigan in particular) this winter. I suspect this glider is going to be phenomenally successful when compared to the other 13.5m gliders.

The big question is...how many pilots currently flying 15/18 gliders will take a look at it?

We shall see...

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 4:00:10 AM UTC+10, Kevin Neave wrote:
> My ideal glider would be something with Discus performance & FES.
> Many of the pilots in my club fly Discus / LS4 performance gliders, or
> lower performance club class.
>
> The GP14 claims to have mid 40s performance, as does the original Discus.
> If there was a FES option I'd seriously consider it.
>
> The problem with the PW5 was it had no performance & was ugly as sin.
>
> KN
>
> At 15:07 29 July 2015, Gliding Guru wrote:
> >Why would anyone spend money on a 13.5 glider? Big mistake of the IGC t
> >permit the class. Even bigger mistake of the Manufacturers to buil
> >something for it. Glorified PW5's and we all know how that ended!
> >
> >

Sounds like the GP14 isn't going to make it... That's going to mix up the results somewhat!

[[email protected]]

Enough thread drift already. How the heck is it going for Team USA?

XF

[Tony[_5_]]

Going good Lane! I flew yesterday, a short local soaring flight. Took a tow behind a Wilga (They have a bunch of them here), and used FES a couple times to find lift under solid overcast.

Gliders here so far are a handful of Silent Electro, a Silent Targa, Sparrowhawk R, the Mini LAK (built across the street from Pociunai), a sawed down Diana 2, and the Russia AC-4D.

We've been posting as much as we can on our blog including a bunch of pictures from yesterday. Today and Tomorrow are the final practice days. I flew with my IGCDroid program runnig yesterday and my flight showed up well on Glideport.aero!

IGC has enough trackers here that the entire field should be carrying trackers each day. I assume the contest tracking page should be available through the contest website...www.wgc2015.lt

We all hope the GP14 can get here for some or all of the contest. We want to see how it shapes up against the other gliders in the class, and they have put SO much work into trying to have it ready it would be a shame if it couldn't fly here.


Blog is https://ussoaringteam2015lithuania.wordpress.com

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 11:15:10 PM UTC+1, Al McNamara wrote:
> Why have a FES in a GP14 when you could have the retractable electric
> >self-launcher version - and forego the extra drag and ugliness of the
> prop
> >moustache?
>
> Speed of starting.

But speed of starting is irrelevant for self launching and for self-retrieving speed of starting is a tiny factor compared with probability of starting which, for any with well designed and maintained electric powered glider, will be a near certainty.

[Sean Fidler]

Website on the GP14. One of the best websites I have seen for a glider manufacturer. Good sign!

http://www.gpgliders.com/gp-14-velo-0

[[email protected]]

hi there,
I'd like to see the sawed down diana. Thanks to post a picture in your blog, if you have a chance, and I wish you good weather for the next 2 weeks
Philipp

[Sean Fidler]

Good results (2nd and 3rd) for team USA on the first competition day although the "sawed down Diana" ;-) earned a nearly 100 point advantage. Unfortunately, the pace of development in this new 13.5m class gives the latest designs significant advantages. Considering that I think the U.S. Team had an amazing first day.

Good to see a real racing task (assigned task) called on day 1.

Huge bummer that Sabastain Kawa was not able to attend in the new GP14.

RESULTS: http://www.soaringspot.com/en_gb/135-wgc2015/results/135-m/task-1-on-2015-08-02/daily

[Tony[_5_]]

Technically..tied for second. It was a really good team flight on a blue day. More tomorrow!

[JS]

On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 10:17:48 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> Technically..tied for second. It was a really good team flight on a blue day. More tomorrow!

A wonderful start. Keep it up!
Jim

[[email protected]]

Great start, Bravo...
And by the way, thanks for the versus pics
Philipp

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 05:56 03 August 2015, wrote:
>Great start, Bravo...
>And by the way, thanks for the versus pics
>Philipp
>

12 competitors! Wasn't world class (PW5) more popular? Another IGC
mistake?

[Wojciech Scigala]

Sean Fidler pisze:

> Huge bummer that Sabastain Kawa was not able to attend in the new GP14.
They still hope to get the glider ready for second competition week.

--
WojtuÅ›

[Sean Fidler]

Go Tony! Go Francios!!!

Results after 2nd contest day:

http://www.soaringspot.com/en_gb/135-wgc2015/results/135-m/task-2-on-2015-08-03/total

[JS]

What's an "incorrect landing lane" warning?
Jim

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 2:59:32 PM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> What's an "incorrect landing lane" warning?
> Jim

Landing on a surface other than "recommended"? Frankly (didn't look at the scoresheet), if nobody was hurt and nothing broken, "I declared an emergency (maybe only in my mind as PIC), thus I can break any rule out there provided I have a good reason for breaking the rule/rules in the follow-up discussion.....".

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 3:49:29 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 2:59:32 PM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> > What's an "incorrect landing lane" warning?
> > Jim
>
> Landing on a surface other than "recommended"? Frankly (didn't look at the scoresheet), if nobody was hurt and nothing broken, "I declared an emergency (maybe only in my mind as PIC), thus I can break any rule out there provided I have a good reason for breaking the rule/rules in the follow-up discussion.....".

From Local Procedures:
7.8.1 Landing procedures
The landing frequency is the same as the finish frequency - 122.500 MHz (call sign POCIUNAI INFO). Sailplanes landing straight in shall, during landing, proceed according to the instruction received from finish officials on the airport frequency. The aim is that the first finishing sailplanes shall normally continue as long as possible landing to allow other sailplanes to land safely behind and to use as much runway as possible. Any sudden change in direction of flight or rolling during the landing procedure is strictly prohibited. Violations will be penalized. Landing instructions for sailplanes landing from the runway circuit will be specified at the briefing.
See Appendix B

Appendix B has 14 illustrations on how they want folks to land/take-off depending on runway in use...

http://www.wgc2015.lt/documents/

I assume either changing direction or rolling, or landing first and not taking it to the end as the procedures say.

2D

[Tony[_5_]]

The field is split into halves. Yesterday the right half was for direct landings and the left for speed finishes and patterns. I'm guessing François drifted over the imaginary centerline on his rollout.

[Tony[_5_]]

Contest is going alright. We'll end up with 12/14 flying days. Hope you've all been following along!

Sean would be happy here...so far 9/10 tasks have been Racing Tasks. We had an area task on a day where thunderstorms were expected.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 2:57:57 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> Contest is going alright. We'll end up with 12/14 flying days. Hope you've all been following along!
>
> Sean would be happy here...so far 9/10 tasks have been Racing Tasks. We had an area task on a day where thunderstorms were expected.

Nice dedication of our team's flights in memory or Rick.
Well done guys
UH

[Sean Fidler]

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 2:57:57 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> Contest is going alright. We'll end up with 12/14 flying days. Hope you've all been following along!
>
> Sean would be happy here...so far 9/10 tasks have been Racing Tasks. We had an area task on a day where thunderstorms were expected.

:-). I have been keeping quit but am also glad that you mentioned the great tasking, befitting a world championships.

Bravo to the CD. I think its absolutely fantastic to have a 13.5 contest with all racing tasks. This would of course be near blasphemy in the US right now unfortunately, We definitely do not call enough...but this year has been a distinct improvement. I am hopefull we continue to add these pure, clean tasks to our contests whenever possible.

I think the Diana 2 and Lak mini have an edge (as they should as they are both newer designs). What was your impression of them vs. your gliders? The GP 14 will probably surpass them. This leapfrogging in performance is a bit unfortunate for the 13.5 class right now. I hope things stabilize.

I think you and Francios have done an incredible job. Congratulations!

[Tony[_5_]]

Hank-It was our pleasure and I was glad that we had a great team flight. We've been flying pretty well together and its been a lot of fun.

The weather has been really good and appropriate for racing tasks here. Only one day where thunderstorms were a remote possibility and we got an area task that day.

The racing tasks have forced us to cross different terrain, shift gears, and do all that fun stuff you would expect at a world championship. It's been a fun time.

Day 12, the final day, coming right up!

[Sean Fidler]

Yes. Soaring changes when you can't fly wherever you want all/most of the time. Racing tasks definitely can be more difficult, but for those who learn to adapt, far greater rewards!

[Tony[_5_]]

Blue day, 3 hour assigned area task today.

Team USA wins the day, 1st and 2nd.

Francois Pin on the Podium

[Craig Reinholt]

Congrats to Team USA!!!

[Sean Fidler]

OUTSTANDING!!! Well done both of you!!!!!!

Great team!

[[email protected]]

Well done guys!!!!

[noel.wade]

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 8:11:30 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> Blue day, 3 hour assigned area task today.
>
> Team USA wins the day, 1st and 2nd.
>
> Francois Pin on the Podium

Woo, congratulations on great flights gentlemen!

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 11:11:30 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> Blue day, 3 hour assigned area task today.
>
> Team USA wins the day, 1st and 2nd.
>
> Francois Pin on the Podium

Well done.
A hard earned good result.
UH

[CLewis95]

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 10:11:30 AM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
> Blue day, 3 hour assigned area task today.
>
> Team USA wins the day, 1st and 2nd.
>
> Francois Pin on the Podium

AWESOME! Great job!
Curt - 95

[Brad Alston]

;907744']Blue day, 3 hour assigned area task today.

Team USA wins the day, 1st and 2nd.

Francois Pin on the Podium

Well done team, congratulations on some great flying! Safe travels home!

Brad.

[BobW]

On 8/15/2015 6:10 PM, wrote:
> On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 11:11:30 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
>> Blue day, 3 hour assigned area task today.
>>
>> Team USA wins the day, 1st and 2nd.
>>
>> Francois Pin on the Podium
>
> Well done.
> A hard earned good result.
> UH
>

What UH said.
Studly!!!
Congratulations to you and Francois, and kudos to all y'all's support crews.
Wichita will never be the same.

Bob W.

[Tony[_5_]]

Before I forget, a big public THANK YOU to the Rules Committee. The team flying that François and I practiced at Cordele was critical to the success we had at the World's.

[WB]

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 10:11:30 AM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
> Blue day, 3 hour assigned area task today.
>
> Team USA wins the day, 1st and 2nd.
>
> Francois Pin on the Podium

Fantastic performance, guys. We are so proud of you.

[howard banks]

Agree, fabulous going guys.
Question: Has anyone done a results comparison measured by wing loading? It has been pointed out elsewhere that while the competing gliders share a wing span (13.5) they are not all built to common standards. The Diana2 and the clipped wing Lak have a much higher available wing loading.
Which by the by makes the US team performance all the more creditable.
h



On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 7:03:26 AM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> I'm headed off today to start the journey to Lithuania. Should be there late next week. Follow along here:
>
> https://ussoaringteam2015lithuania.wordpress.com/

[Tony[_5_]]

Howard,

Max wing loading for the 13.5 Meter class in the WGC is 35 kg/m^2, so the Diana Versus and Mini LAK had the same wing loading as most of the Silents. They did it on less total area, so a lower total weight for lower span loading. Most pilots observed that the Versus, MiniLAK, and Sparrowhawk R all outclimbed the Silents, as they should, and the glider performance was also superior. I particularly noticed that with the Versus. I did not have many opportunities to fly with the Mini LAK. The Sparrowhawk R was closer to the Silent in glide but Morgan also has a fixed gear on his glider to be able to use it for Ultralight World Record attempts.

It is worth noting that once 13.5 Meter World Records are available (in October), there is no wing loading limit. So you might consider sawing down your 27 ;)

[[email protected]]

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 3:22:34 PM UTC-4, howard banks wrote:
> Agree, fabulous going guys.
> Question: Has anyone done a results comparison measured by wing loading? It has been pointed out elsewhere that while the competing gliders share a wing span (13.5) they are not all built to common standards. The Diana2 and the clipped wing Lak have a much higher available wing loading.
> Which by the by makes the US team performance all the more creditable.
> h
>
> I suspect that the performance difference is more about geometry than wing loading.
UH
>
>

[JS]

Very nice teamwork Tony and Francois!
Jim

[Tony[_5_]]

Yes, the Versus & mini-LAK & Sparrowhawk are down around 8m^2, while the Silent is 9. Higher aspect ratios and thinner airfoil sections. It all adds up.

I should mention that the Russia AC-4DY, in my opinion, seemed to have equal climb and glide to the Silents. It's a carbon, flapped glider. I understand they will sell as a pure glider for something like 25K dollars! Silent seemed to have an edge on the AS-5M, which was fiberglass with no flaps.