Tow endorsement must include 3 glider flights as PIC?

[WAVEGURU]

So PIC time is not dual time, so how do we get a new tow pilot 3 PIC flights in a glider? It didn't used to require PIC time, as I remember, just 3 flights, right?
61.69a(6) Page 74 in the 2015 FAR AIM

Boggs

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 4:30:16 PM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
> So PIC time is not dual time, so how do we get a new tow pilot 3 PIC flights in a glider? It didn't used to require PIC time, as I remember, just 3 flights, right?
> 61.69a(6) Page 74 in the 2015 FAR AIM
>
> Boggs

It didn't say solo, it said PIC.

IIRC, if he/she is the, "Sole manipulator of the controls", it's PIC time. Look up the PIC definition.

[[email protected]]

Re the previous reply--

I always thought PIC was one of those concepts with more than one meaning.

For logbook purposes, I thought you had to have the appropriate rating for the aircraft in question.

Has something changed in this regard?

Do student pilots log PIC time?

On a more for practical level, would you allow someone who is not a glider pilot to be the sole manipulator of the controls in a glider? For the whole flight, takeoff to landing? How many prior flights would be needed to get him/her up to this point of proficiency?

Something is not adding up here...

S

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 4:30:16 PM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
> So PIC time is not dual time, so how do we get a new tow pilot 3 PIC flights in a glider? It didn't used to require PIC time, as I remember, just 3 flights, right?
> 61.69a(6) Page 74 in the 2015 FAR AIM
>
> Boggs

I would say you have to solo a glider to get PIC, that's how its done at our club.
Glen

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 2:30:16 PM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote:
> So PIC time is not dual time, so how do we get a new tow pilot 3 PIC flights in a glider? It didn't used to require PIC time, as I remember, just 3 flights, right?
> 61.69a(6) Page 74 in the 2015 FAR AIM
>
> Boggs

Seems like a simple answer to me: train the tow pilot to solo in a glider. That is a requirement at many clubs I have flown at. A sensible one as well.

Chris

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 1:30:16 PM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> So PIC time is not dual time, so how do we get a new tow pilot 3 PIC flights in a glider? It didn't used to require PIC time, as I remember, just 3 flights, right?
> 61.69a(6) Page 74 in the 2015 FAR AIM
>
> Boggs

6) Within the preceding 12 months has-
(i) Made at least three actual or simulated tows of a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle while accompanied by a qualified pilot who meets the requirements of this section; or
(ii) Made at least three flights as pilot in command of a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle towed by an aircraft.

Please note the "or" at the 6(i), seems to me all you need is three actual or simulated tows, three flights as PIC of a towed glider is simply an alternative means of meeting the requirement...

Marc

[Glider RN]

Currency requirements for someone towing a glider are covered in
FAR 61.69a(6) Within 24 calendar months before the flight has--

(i) Made at least three actual or simulated tows of a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle while accompanied by a qualified pilot who meets the requirements of this section; or

(ii) Made at least three flights as pilot in command of a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle towed by an aircraft.


A tow pilot without a glider rating or PIC category endorsement must meet (i).

A tow pilot with a current glider rating could act as PIC with or without a passenger or instructor in the glider if he meets the 90 day currency requirement to carry passengers when the second person in the glider is not an instructor.

A pilot without a glider rating, but with a glider additional category PIC endorsement may act as Pilot in Command during Solo Operations - FAR 61.31(d)(2)

(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must--
......
(2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor.

The Glider Category Additional Rating Endorsement to act as Pilot in Command during Solo Operations - FAR 61.31(d)(2) is as follows.

I certify that M _______ has received flight instruction in the pilot operations required for first solo in a (Glider Type) and find him competent to solo that glider.for a glider may meet (i) or (ii) acting as PIC when flying alone in the glider.

[WAVEGURU]

Come on you guys. Get serious. If we had to solo everybody in a glider before he could tow we wouldn't have many tow pilots.

Boggs

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 6:14:54 PM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> Come on you guys. Get serious. If we had to solo everybody in a glider before he could tow we wouldn't have many tow pilots.
>
> Boggs

That'a why (i) is available to those who cannot fly a glider as PIC. :-)

And you think the FAA makes logical rules???

5Z

[Bruce Hoult]

On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 1:14:54 PM UTC+12, Waveguru wrote:
> Come on you guys. Get serious. If we had to solo everybody in a glider before he could tow we wouldn't have many tow pilots.

What kind of competent tow pilot isn't capable of getting solo in a glider in a weekend?

[Bill T]

61.69 has two parts, initial qual and recurring qual. Neither one requires a solo in glider by a tow pilot. It does provide options for those qualified to solo PIC in a glider to maintain tow currency easier.

BillT

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 1:30:16 PM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> so how do we get a new tow pilot

>as I remember, just 3 flights, right?
> 61.69
>
> Boggs

Ahhh - dear Boggs. It's that memory thing again. Since we've been "doing it so long", the initial procedure gets muddled with the recent experience requirement.
And asking this group for their opinion is as likely to get you mud in your eye as any clarification. ;-)

I'm guessing you are asking about an INITIAL qual/endorsement... since you
inquire as to how to get "a new tow pilot".

That new tuggie needs TWO signatures... to be a legal slinger-upper.
The first endorsement is training and supervision from a currently qualified tugger after having made three real or simulated tows.
The trainer does not need a CFI-A, and can use any two-hole air machine to 'simulate' towing. Record your work in the checkout, refer to the right FAR number, then sign and use your airmen's certificate number.


The second endorsement is for ground and flight training in a glider on the principles, signals and emergency procedures for safe towing. That requires at least one glider dual flight and a CFI-G signature in the prospective tuggie's logbook. Don't let the glider CFI forget to mention the Ground training given in the endorsement.

That keeps the FAA happy. Your insurance carrier may be more specific or utterly clueless about what makes a safe, aware tuggie. I prefer being towed by a pilot who is glider qualified and current, but have had excellent service from some who don't soar.

I include some discussion time with prospective or fresh new tow pilots about the legal ramifications of rope releases, subrogation by carriers, the threat to towpilots by distracted glider pilots, appropriate times to defend themselves from upset (or stalled elevators), pitch trim on departure roll, when to just go tie-down, fuel records and burn times, complacency.

For the rest of you lurkers who will never tow a glider up, thank your towpilot at the end of the day, or the beginning. Without them we would all be looking for longer airports, unused V-8 hulks and a Sxxx-hot welder.

I am amazed we didn't see Burt post. It's almost his favorite topic. He must be out dual in a glider today . . . .
Chuckling,
Cindy B

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

> I am amazed we didn't see Burt post. It's almost his favorite topic. He must be out dual in a glider today . . . .
> Chuckling,
> Cindy B

There was so much confusion and misinformation that my head was about to explode. So I waited for YOU to straighten them out.

I have a file ready to e-mail if anyone wants it that explains the two scenarios:
1. NEW tow pilot (who must also receive ground and flight training in a GLIDER in preparation for the tow endorsement.
2. Recurrency for the tow pilot who has the initial endorsement but needs to get current with 3 flights every 24 months (formerly 12) by the methods decried in FAR 61.69 AND in my book:
The Towpilot Manual" available from www.bobwander.com Cheap. Easy Read.

For that matter why guess y'all? READ the FAR 61.69 and while you are at it FAR 91.309 about towing.

[Brian[_1_]]

Gary..
This is the requirement you are refering to...

(6) Within 24 calendar months before the flight has--

(i) Made at least three actual or simulated tows of a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle while accompanied by a qualified pilot who meets the requirements of this section; or

(ii) Made at least three flights as pilot in command of a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle towed by an aircraft.

this is for maintaining currency, and the operative word is "or".
Since I am an active glider pilot I went nearly 15 years before I ever did another checkout for towing, since I always remained current by making three flights as PIC of a glider. Most tow pilots will get current by doing 3 tows or simulated tows with another tow pilot.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

[2G]

On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 10:25:37 PM UTC-7, Brian wrote:
> Gary..
> This is the requirement you are refering to...
>
> (6) Within 24 calendar months before the flight has--
>
> (i) Made at least three actual or simulated tows of a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle while accompanied by a qualified pilot who meets the requirements of this section; or
>
> (ii) Made at least three flights as pilot in command of a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle towed by an aircraft.
>
> this is for maintaining currency, and the operative word is "or".
> Since I am an active glider pilot I went nearly 15 years before I ever did another checkout for towing, since I always remained current by making three flights as PIC of a glider. Most tow pilots will get current by doing 3 tows or simulated tows with another tow pilot.
>
> Brian
> CFIIG/ASEL

Ok, let's say all the tow pilots in the world became non-current; how does a tow pilot become current? There are no current tow pilots.

Another ridiculous situation: there are only 2 tow pilots in the country. One is current and the other is not. The non-current pilot is checked out by the current one with 3 simulated tows. Now the newly current pilot can check out the other one with another 3 simulated tows after, say, a 6 month period. This process gets repeated in perpetuity. Both pilots stay "current" w/o actually doing an actual tow!

This entire process seems incestual to me.

Tom