Detergent for washing Fabric Aircraft

[Walt Connelly]

Any recommendations for washing the fabric on a Pawnee? I find myself sitting around the time of year twiddling my fingers waiting to fly a tow but rain, overcast.....you know the drill. I could be using my time to make our tow planes shine........your recommendations please?

I know about Simple Green for Aircraft but I understand that is for aircraft aluminum........

Walt Connelly

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Interesting note in the MD 500 POH they specifically prohibit the use of Simple Green due to it's corrosive nature. try a soaping mix of Dove and water.

On Saturday, July 25, 2015 at 11:43:03 AM UTC-7, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Any recommendations for washing the fabric on a Pawnee? I find myself
> sitting around the time of year twiddling my fingers waiting to fly a
> tow but rain, overcast.....you know the drill. I could be using my time
> to make our tow planes shine........your recommendations please?
>
> I know about Simple Green for Aircraft but I understand that is for
> aircraft aluminum........
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Saturday, July 25, 2015 at 3:08:25 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Interesting note in the MD 500 POH they specifically prohibit the use of Simple Green due to it's corrosive nature. try a soaping mix of Dove and water.
>
> On Saturday, July 25, 2015 at 11:43:03 AM UTC-7, Walt Connelly wrote:
> > Any recommendations for washing the fabric on a Pawnee? I find myself
> > sitting around the time of year twiddling my fingers waiting to fly a
> > tow but rain, overcast.....you know the drill. I could be using my time
> > to make our tow planes shine........your recommendations please?
> >
> > I know about Simple Green for Aircraft but I understand that is for
> > aircraft aluminum........
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Walt Connelly

Typically we just use an "Automotive soap" in water. There are tons of brands, some have "wax" in them to leave a bit of a shine.
IIRC, I tend to use a "Mcquires concentrated" (sp) for cars & aircraft. Just try to NOT do it in direct sunlight. A cloudy/rainy day is great.

Most "liquid dish soap" tends to strip any wax off the surface (not saying there is much to begin with....).
After dry, "Pledge" is a sorta cheap way to deal with a better surface, some of the "spray on, wipe off" helps cleaning after.
I REALLY shy away from the "miracle polishes" (Nu-finish, etc) since a lot have silicone in them, thus repairs/patches down the road don't stick well.

[Darryl Ramm]

"Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)" > wrote:
/snip/
> After dry, "Pledge" is a sorta cheap way to deal with a better surface,
> some of the "spray on, wipe off" helps cleaning after.
> I REALLY shy away from the "miracle polishes" (Nu-finish, etc) since a
> lot have silicone in them, thus repairs/patches down the road don't stick well.

If you are worried about silicon wax it makes no sense to spray with
Pledge, which is a silicone oil based spray.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Saturday, July 25, 2015 at 4:53:53 PM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> "Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)" > wrote:
> /snip/
> > After dry, "Pledge" is a sorta cheap way to deal with a better surface,
> > some of the "spray on, wipe off" helps cleaning after.
> > I REALLY shy away from the "miracle polishes" (Nu-finish, etc) since a
> > lot have silicone in them, thus repairs/patches down the road don't stick well.
>
> If you are worried about silicon wax it makes no sense to spray with
> Pledge, which is a silicone oil based spray.

Not the last I saw, but there are always changes.

BTW, it's "silicone", not "silicon" (which is used in making PC chips, etc.)
I would have to go and look to see what Pledge is now, I may have to say, "I was incorrect in today's formulation".
I have no issue in learning new stuff.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Saturday, July 25, 2015 at 5:41:41 PM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Saturday, July 25, 2015 at 4:53:53 PM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > "Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)" > wrote:
> > /snip/
> > > After dry, "Pledge" is a sorta cheap way to deal with a better surface,
> > > some of the "spray on, wipe off" helps cleaning after.
> > > I REALLY shy away from the "miracle polishes" (Nu-finish, etc) since a
> > > lot have silicone in them, thus repairs/patches down the road don't stick well.
> >
> > If you are worried about silicon wax it makes no sense to spray with
> > Pledge, which is a silicone oil based spray.
>
> Not the last I saw, but there are always changes.
>
> BTW, it's "silicone", not "silicon" (which is used in making PC chips, etc.)
> I would have to go and look to see what Pledge is now, I may have to say, "I was incorrect in today's formulation".
> I have no issue in learning new stuff.

Yes, obviously silicone, sorry iOS autocorrect got me.

And now I'm not on my iPhone.... here is a link to what is in Lemon Pledge. http://www.whatsinsidescjohnson.com/en-us/products-by-brand/pledge/pledge-lemon-clean.aspx The silicone there is dimethicone aka polydimethylsiloxane aka "Silicone Oil" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydimethylsiloxane).

Pledge and similar sprays are something around 5-10% silicone oil, depending on product/dispenser type. That's what all the Pledge "no wax" and "no build-up" claims are about... it's silicone oil not a carnauba or petroleum wax based product that would build up. Being a woodworker it's the last thing I would ever get near any furniture I've finished (its harder to deal with silicone contamination with many wood finishes then automotive finishes, especially where silicon contamination is expected).

Many (Most?) of the spray plastic cleaners (spray bottles or aerosols) that folks use to clean canopies also contain silicone oil. Obviously that includes good old Lemon Pledge that many folks use, as well as specialized cleaners like Plexus Aircraft plastic Cleaner & Polish (my favorite). If you spray that stuff on your canopy you *are* coating nearby parts of your glider paint/gelcoat in silicone oil. I would use care to avoid getting it absolutely everywhere but hopefully any shop doing a finish repair or refinish will expect that/be able to deal with silicone contamination.

[Daryl Hickman]

I use Meguiare's Deep Crystal Car Wash on my Cubs...

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Thanks for the info & link Darryl. I believe Pledge has changed formulations over the years, good to know what is in it now (maybe it was always in there...?)

But yes, most of the "wipe on/wipe off" stuff has silicone in it. While a shop should "assume" silicone is on the surface, it's nice to not find it.

As to a wash, I stick to what I use followed by a good paste wax coat at least a few times a year.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Saturday, July 25, 2015 at 9:04:36 PM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Thanks for the info & link Darryl. I believe Pledge has changed formulations over the years, good to know what is in it now (maybe it was always in there...?)
>
> But yes, most of the "wipe on/wipe off" stuff has silicone in it. While a shop should "assume" silicone is on the surface, it's nice to not find it.
>
> As to a wash, I stick to what I use followed by a good paste wax coat at least a few times a year.

I suspect it always has had silicon oil in it, even though it was initially marketed with slogans that said "wax".... but then it's neither a "polish".. Misuse of all those terms in marketing is unfortunately common in finishing trades. Pledge came out in the late 1950s and Silicone oils started being used in the 1950s. e.g. hybrid wax/silicone automotive car waxes were patented in the early 1950s. And it started being added to lots and lots of products.

[bumper[_4_]]

For the underbelly of the beast, original Go-Jo hand cleaner (not the stuff with pumice), works amazingly well to remove oil, grime, and exhaust stains. Wipe it on with a rag or hand, then hose or wipe off with damp rag.

I tested Go-Jo by sticking a piece of aluminum half way in and waiting a couple of weeks to make sure there were no untoward effects.

[Dan Marotta]

Out of curiosity, how do auto body shops deal with silicone waxes during
repairs? Must they strip an entire panel down to the primer (or bare
metal) before repainting? Or do they simply replace panels?

On 7/25/2015 10:52 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Saturday, July 25, 2015 at 9:04:36 PM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
>> Thanks for the info & link Darryl. I believe Pledge has changed formulations over the years, good to know what is in it now (maybe it was always in there...?)
>>
>> But yes, most of the "wipe on/wipe off" stuff has silicone in it. While a shop should "assume" silicone is on the surface, it's nice to not find it.
>>
>> As to a wash, I stick to what I use followed by a good paste wax coat at least a few times a year.
> I suspect it always has had silicon oil in it, even though it was initially marketed with slogans that said "wax".... but then it's neither a "polish". Misuse of all those terms in marketing is unfortunately common in finishing trades. Pledge came out in the late 1950s and Silicone oils started being used in the 1950s. e.g. hybrid wax/silicone automotive car waxes were patented in the early 1950s. And it started being added to lots and lots of products.

--
Dan Marotta

[Darryl Ramm]

Dan Marotta > wrote:
> Out of curiosity, how do auto body shops deal with silicone waxes during
> repairs? Must they strip an entire panel down to the primer (or bare
> metal) before repainting? Or do they simply replace panels?
>
> On 7/25/2015 10:52 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Saturday, July 25, 2015 at 9:04:36 PM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002
> owner/pilot) wrote:
> Thanks for the info & link Darryl. I believe Pledge has changed
> formulations over the years, good to know what is in it now (maybe it was
> always in there...?)
>
> But yes, most of the "wipe on/wipe off" stuff has silicone in it. While a
> shop should "assume" silicone is on the surface, it's nice to not find it.
>
> As to a wash, I stick to what I use followed by a good paste wax coat at
> least a few times a year.
> I suspect it always has had silicon oil in it, even though it was
> initially marketed with slogans that said "wax".... but then it's neither
> a "polish". Misuse of all those terms in marketing is unfortunately
> common in finishing trades. Pledge came out in the late 1950s and
> Silicone oils started being used in the 1950s. e.g. hybrid wax/silicone
> automotive car waxes were patented in the early 1950s. And it started
> being added to lots and lots of products.
>
> --
> Dan Marotta

Surface prep cleaners used properly. Care not to spread contaminants around
e.g. on sandpaper. And use of compatible paints/additives (actually
typically a silicone oil derivative itself... which lets the paint flow out
over silicone contamination).

[[email protected]]

This concern for silicone contaminating a glider surface making it very difficult to complete a durable repair does not seem to be a valid concern at this time.
I have had many long talks with commercial repair people.
They just assume that every surface has silicone on it because it is in virtually all products.
They have told me repeatedly over the last ten years that silicone is NOT a concern.

[bumper[_4_]]

On Sunday, July 26, 2015 at 1:14:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> This concern for silicone contaminating a glider surface making it very difficult to complete a durable repair does not seem to be a valid concern at this time.
> I have had many long talks with commercial repair people.
> They just assume that every surface has silicone on it because it is in virtually all products.
> They have told me repeatedly over the last ten years that silicone is NOT a concern.

Back when Larry Mansberger had his shop at Minden, I asked him about all the flurry about silicones in waxes etc. At the time, and probably still, most of Consumer Reports top rated waxes had silicones. Larry said it wasn't a big deal, they solvent cleaned and prepped surfaces before repairs is any case and that silicone contamination wasn't a concern.

Good enough for me.

bumper