The highly successful UK Junior XC program vs. USA's nonexistantJunior XC program. Why?

[Sean Fidler]

Some of you might be interested to know that the UK just held its 2015 Junior Nationals a few weeks ago. Nearly 70 juniors pilots (yes, SEVENTY) competed in the event. As an American, I nearly fell over in my chair when I saw the article (and photo of the grid).

Back in the USA, the SSA doesn't even bother to hold a Junior Nationals. I cannot recall when the SSA last held a specific Junior competition? Only a few Junior glider pilots competed in SSA sanctioned contests this year nationwide (even with a hefty discount offer from the SSA). The SSA, to the best of my knowledge, has no real plan or strategy to improve Junior soaring numbers. To be honest, few leaders in the USA seem concerned about truly developing a vibrant junior XC soaring culture. Some even bitterly question if Junior XC or contest participation is relevant or important to the health of the SSA or US Soaring. When is the last time we saw an article, poll or speech on improving youth soaring XC skills/participation/enthusiasm in the SSA or USA?

The UK isn't satisfied with just a highly successful 2015 Junior Nationals. Now the UK is next holding a Junior winter XC series in the coming months. They already have 50 Juniors (FIFTY, not done yet) signed up for the first event in the series. Yesterday, British Soaring (SSA equivalent) was on Facebook soliciting more gliding clubs to "send their dual XC ships with instructors" to keep up with "demand." Amazing.

If the UK is developing this kind of energy and enthusiasm at their youth XC events, what does that say about our nonexistent youth XC training program in the SSA? Yes, these are all XC events and NOT primary training, rides or kiddie playtime. Yes, these events are all equal or larger than the SSA's largest sanctioned contests (Seniors (interesting in and of itself really) and Perry). What benefits does a strong youth XC culture provide the UKs soaring community vs. our own?

The UK equivalent of the SSA has a Junior Development Committee (JDC). Clearly, the UK puts a huge amount of emphasis on this "opportunity." They likely put their best people on it. Does the SSA even have a youth soaring function or officer? Why not? What is more important than a highly developed youth XC soaring culture to a country's soaring future?

How can the UK, a country of only 60 million citizens, be so highly developed in terms of Jr soaring pilot XC skills, proficiency, organization, events and enthusiasm while the USA (a country of some 330 million) doesn't even have an organized Junior program, bother to hold a Junior Nationals or any have real Junior culture whatsoever? They few Juniors we have are left to themselves to figure it out. They have zero funding and little support.

How many U.S. Junior pilots are capable of flying true cross country let alone contest tasks? Developing Junior XC flying skills is not magic. It's simply a function of inspiration, qualified instruction, and motivation. XC soaring is also quite fun to learn and master. It is an extremely satisfying challenge to meet. XC might just challenge our youth pilots enough to keep them interested in the sport. That appears to be the case in the UK. And the UK is not alone, most European countries are also quite successful with their youth XC soaring programs.

What does all this tell us about the health of U.S. Soaring (SSA)?

What does this tell us about our leadership focus, culture, priorities, and strategy? What does this tell us about our soaring clubs (many actively DISCOURAGE cross-country flight!)? What does this tell us about our glider instruction culture? Our mentorship results?

How can the UK (and many other countries to be perfectly honest) be so amazingly successful at developing Junior XC soaring energy and while the US (SSA) is so impressively "unsuccessful?"

We hear the occasional murmurs in the SSA about our falling numbers, poor international competition results, aging demographics, etc.

Does the USA's lack of an organized and a high priority youth soaring program bother anyone else? Is there anything to learn here? Is there anything that we might want to consider changing? What is our "leadership" doing about this problem? Do they even recognize it as "a problem?" Is our lack of Junior participation and XC skill development even on the SSA priority list? On our soaring clubs priority list? What's our strategy? What are our action items for 2015-2016? Are there any presentations scheduled at the upcoming SSA convention?

I hope this sparks a productive discussion.

Sean
7T

[Andy Gough[_2_]]

On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 11:53:06 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Some of you might be interested to know that the UK just held its 2015 Junior Nationals a few weeks ago. Nearly 70 juniors pilots (yes, SEVENTY) competed in the event. As an American, I nearly fell over in my chair when I saw the article (and photo of the grid).
>
> Back in the USA, the SSA doesn't even bother to hold a Junior Nationals. I cannot recall when the SSA last held a specific Junior competition? Only a few Junior glider pilots competed in SSA sanctioned contests this year nationwide (even with a hefty discount offer from the SSA). The SSA, to the best of my knowledge, has no real plan or strategy to improve Junior soaring numbers. To be honest, few leaders in the USA seem concerned about truly developing a vibrant junior XC soaring culture. Some even bitterly question if Junior XC or contest participation is relevant or important to the health of the SSA or US Soaring. When is the last time we saw an article, poll or speech on improving youth soaring XC skills/participation/enthusiasm in the SSA or USA?
>
> The UK isn't satisfied with just a highly successful 2015 Junior Nationals. Now the UK is next holding a Junior winter XC series in the coming months. They already have 50 Juniors (FIFTY, not done yet) signed up for the first event in the series. Yesterday, British Soaring (SSA equivalent) was on Facebook soliciting more gliding clubs to "send their dual XC ships with instructors" to keep up with "demand." Amazing.
>
> If the UK is developing this kind of energy and enthusiasm at their youth XC events, what does that say about our nonexistent youth XC training program in the SSA? Yes, these are all XC events and NOT primary training, rides or kiddie playtime. Yes, these events are all equal or larger than the SSA's largest sanctioned contests (Seniors (interesting in and of itself really) and Perry). What benefits does a strong youth XC culture provide the UKs soaring community vs. our own?
>
> The UK equivalent of the SSA has a Junior Development Committee (JDC). Clearly, the UK puts a huge amount of emphasis on this "opportunity." They likely put their best people on it. Does the SSA even have a youth soaring function or officer? Why not? What is more important than a highly developed youth XC soaring culture to a country's soaring future?
>
> How can the UK, a country of only 60 million citizens, be so highly developed in terms of Jr soaring pilot XC skills, proficiency, organization, events and enthusiasm while the USA (a country of some 330 million) doesn't even have an organized Junior program, bother to hold a Junior Nationals or any have real Junior culture whatsoever? They few Juniors we have are left to themselves to figure it out. They have zero funding and little support.
>
> How many U.S. Junior pilots are capable of flying true cross country let alone contest tasks? Developing Junior XC flying skills is not magic. It's simply a function of inspiration, qualified instruction, and motivation. XC soaring is also quite fun to learn and master. It is an extremely satisfying challenge to meet. XC might just challenge our youth pilots enough to keep them interested in the sport. That appears to be the case in the UK. And the UK is not alone, most European countries are also quite successful with their youth XC soaring programs.
>
> What does all this tell us about the health of U.S. Soaring (SSA)?
>
> What does this tell us about our leadership focus, culture, priorities, and strategy? What does this tell us about our soaring clubs (many actively DISCOURAGE cross-country flight!)? What does this tell us about our glider instruction culture? Our mentorship results?
>
> How can the UK (and many other countries to be perfectly honest) be so amazingly successful at developing Junior XC soaring energy and while the US (SSA) is so impressively "unsuccessful?"
>
> We hear the occasional murmurs in the SSA about our falling numbers, poor international competition results, aging demographics, etc.
>
> Does the USA's lack of an organized and a high priority youth soaring program bother anyone else? Is there anything to learn here? Is there anything that we might want to consider changing? What is our "leadership" doing about this problem? Do they even recognize it as "a problem?" Is our lack of Junior participation and XC skill development even on the SSA priority list? On our soaring clubs priority list? What's our strategy? What are our action items for 2015-2016? Are there any presentations scheduled at the upcoming SSA convention?
>
> I hope this sparks a productive discussion.
>
> Sean
> 7T

Before we can host Junior Nationals with 70 plus participants we need to start producing the pilots needed to accomplish this feat. Soaring was not pioneered by a bunch of old men flying expensive super gliders, in many instances the early pioneers were barely more than schoolboys, in small groups resourceful enough to further their ambitions on a shoestring budget.

Take a look at this topic from August 2014, A proposal to increase membership, cross-country pilots, competitors, and world champions (USA)

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/KU845t6yWNY

and do a find on posts that contain "KSS" or "Piotr Szafranski".

The message I get is organization of training in a group setting produces the best results. Add in cheap launch facilities and you can produce new pilots and advance them to competent soaring pilots rapidly and inexpensively which opens up soaring to a whole new group of participants including youth.. An understanding needs to be gained that in the early development of a soaring pilot high launches and high performance equipment produce little add on value and in most instances are detrimental to rapid advancement in the early stages of pilot development. Focus on individuals instead of organized group training is inefficient and slows down the whole process and produces anemic results

Piotr Szafranski claims Polish gliding has been successful using the principals of cheap and simple equipment and organization of flying activities in group settings accomplishing both efficiency and rapid advancement while containing costs. He also hints the advantages of group training achieve more inclusiveness and sense of belonging giving people even more incentive to stay in it for the long run.

We have plenty of noise about making soaring visible and getting people to try it but that is where it stops and we abandon the newcomers to their own devices. Recruitment is just the first stage in the development of a soaring pilot. Managing the new pilot's progress from ab-initio to solo, to soaring pilot and then cross country pilot are the stages we neglect that are essential to the final graduation to contest pilot.

Club Class is the only contest class that is growing. Seems to fit the above model. Make soaring affordable to young people and reduce the barriers to advancement and we might one day be able to put on a Junior Nationals.

[Robin Clark]

On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 11:53:06 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Some of you might be interested to know that the UK just held its 2015 Junior Nationals a few weeks ago. Nearly 70 juniors pilots (yes, SEVENTY) competed in the event. As an American, I nearly fell over in my chair when I saw the article (and photo of the grid).
>
> Back in the USA, the SSA doesn't even bother to hold a Junior Nationals. I cannot recall when the SSA last held a specific Junior competition? Only a few Junior glider pilots competed in SSA sanctioned contests this year nationwide (even with a hefty discount offer from the SSA). The SSA, to the best of my knowledge, has no real plan or strategy to improve Junior soaring numbers. To be honest, few leaders in the USA seem concerned about truly developing a vibrant junior XC soaring culture. Some even bitterly question if Junior XC or contest participation is relevant or important to the health of the SSA or US Soaring. When is the last time we saw an article, poll or speech on improving youth soaring XC skills/participation/enthusiasm in the SSA or USA?
>
> The UK isn't satisfied with just a highly successful 2015 Junior Nationals. Now the UK is next holding a Junior winter XC series in the coming months. They already have 50 Juniors (FIFTY, not done yet) signed up for the first event in the series. Yesterday, British Soaring (SSA equivalent) was on Facebook soliciting more gliding clubs to "send their dual XC ships with instructors" to keep up with "demand." Amazing.
>
> If the UK is developing this kind of energy and enthusiasm at their youth XC events, what does that say about our nonexistent youth XC training program in the SSA? Yes, these are all XC events and NOT primary training, rides or kiddie playtime. Yes, these events are all equal or larger than the SSA's largest sanctioned contests (Seniors (interesting in and of itself really) and Perry). What benefits does a strong youth XC culture provide the UKs soaring community vs. our own?
>
> The UK equivalent of the SSA has a Junior Development Committee (JDC). Clearly, the UK puts a huge amount of emphasis on this "opportunity." They likely put their best people on it. Does the SSA even have a youth soaring function or officer? Why not? What is more important than a highly developed youth XC soaring culture to a country's soaring future?
>
> How can the UK, a country of only 60 million citizens, be so highly developed in terms of Jr soaring pilot XC skills, proficiency, organization, events and enthusiasm while the USA (a country of some 330 million) doesn't even have an organized Junior program, bother to hold a Junior Nationals or any have real Junior culture whatsoever? They few Juniors we have are left to themselves to figure it out. They have zero funding and little support.
>
> How many U.S. Junior pilots are capable of flying true cross country let alone contest tasks? Developing Junior XC flying skills is not magic. It's simply a function of inspiration, qualified instruction, and motivation. XC soaring is also quite fun to learn and master. It is an extremely satisfying challenge to meet. XC might just challenge our youth pilots enough to keep them interested in the sport. That appears to be the case in the UK. And the UK is not alone, most European countries are also quite successful with their youth XC soaring programs.
>
> What does all this tell us about the health of U.S. Soaring (SSA)?
>
> What does this tell us about our leadership focus, culture, priorities, and strategy? What does this tell us about our soaring clubs (many actively DISCOURAGE cross-country flight!)? What does this tell us about our glider instruction culture? Our mentorship results?
>
> How can the UK (and many other countries to be perfectly honest) be so amazingly successful at developing Junior XC soaring energy and while the US (SSA) is so impressively "unsuccessful?"
>
> We hear the occasional murmurs in the SSA about our falling numbers, poor international competition results, aging demographics, etc.
>
> Does the USA's lack of an organized and a high priority youth soaring program bother anyone else? Is there anything to learn here? Is there anything that we might want to consider changing? What is our "leadership" doing about this problem? Do they even recognize it as "a problem?" Is our lack of Junior participation and XC skill development even on the SSA priority list? On our soaring clubs priority list? What's our strategy? What are our action items for 2015-2016? Are there any presentations scheduled at the upcoming SSA convention?
>
> I hope this sparks a productive discussion.
>
> Sean
> 7T

I think Phil Gaisford and Bob Fletcher are showing us that we don't need a strong junior program here. We can just take our champions after they have been trained in the UK.

[Gav Goudie[_2_]]

The UK Junior National Championships is successful due to the tremendous
hard work and effort put in to it by the people who want to see it be a
success and provide the opportunity for others that they have been given
previously. It's a hugely exciting comp to be at and compete in and the
friendships forged will last a lifetime. It's had its lean years also so
it's great
to see this year back at capacity plus!

Yes, there is huge talent, competitive spirit and camaraderie among those
eligible to compete and be coached for future years but this is not limited
to
the UK. I'm sure the UK geography helps - even the most distant pilot has
less than 10hrs to drive to most venues.

You have the pool of talent and youth in the USA (I truly hope you do
anyway) and you have no excuse with weather.... so get involved and take
the lead Sean!

GG (14 year ex UK junior...)

At 15:53 09 September 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
>Some of you might be interested to know that the UK just held its 2015
>Juni=
>or Nationals a few weeks ago. Nearly 70 juniors pilots (yes, SEVENTY)
>comp=
>eted in the event. As an American, I nearly fell over in my chair when I
>s=
>aw the article (and photo of the grid).=20
>
>Back in the USA, the SSA doesn't even bother to hold a Junior Nationals.
>I=
> cannot recall when the SSA last held a specific Junior competition?
Only
>=
>a few Junior glider pilots competed in SSA sanctioned contests this year
>na=
>tionwide (even with a hefty discount offer from the SSA). The SSA, to
the
>=
>best of my knowledge, has no real plan or strategy to improve Junior
>soarin=
>g numbers. To be honest, few leaders in the USA seem concerned about
>truly=
> developing a vibrant junior XC soaring culture. Some even bitterly
>questi=
>on if Junior XC or contest participation is relevant or important to the
>he=
>alth of the SSA or US Soaring. When is the last time we saw an article,
>p=
>oll or speech on improving youth soaring XC
>skills/participation/enthusiasm=
> in the SSA or USA?=20
>
>The UK isn't satisfied with just a highly successful 2015 Junior
>Nationals.=
> Now the UK is next holding a Junior winter XC series in the coming
>month=
>s. They already have 50 Juniors (FIFTY, not done yet) signed up for the
>fi=
>rst event in the series. Yesterday, British Soaring (SSA equivalent) was
>o=
>n Facebook soliciting more gliding clubs to "send their dual XC ships
with
>=
>instructors" to keep up with "demand." Amazing.
>
>If the UK is developing this kind of energy and enthusiasm at their youth
>X=
>C events, what does that say about our nonexistent youth XC training
>progra=
>m in the SSA? Yes, these are all XC events and NOT primary training,
>rides=
> or kiddie playtime. Yes, these events are all equal or larger than the
>SS=
>A's largest sanctioned contests (Seniors (interesting in and of itself
>real=
>ly) and Perry). What benefits does a strong youth XC culture provide the
>U=
>Ks soaring community vs. our own?=20
>
>The UK equivalent of the SSA has a Junior Development Committee (JDC).
>Cle=
>arly, the UK puts a huge amount of emphasis on this "opportunity." They
>li=
>kely put their best people on it. Does the SSA even have a youth soaring
>f=
>unction or officer? Why not? What is more important than a highly
>develop=
>ed youth XC soaring culture to a country's soaring future?
>
>How can the UK, a country of only 60 million citizens, be so highly
>develop=
>ed in terms of Jr soaring pilot XC skills, proficiency, organization,
>event=
>s and enthusiasm while the USA (a country of some 330 million) doesn't
>even=
> have an organized Junior program, bother to hold a Junior Nationals or
>any=
> have real Junior culture whatsoever? They few Juniors we have are left
>to=
> themselves to figure it out. They have zero funding and little
support.=
>=20
>
>How many U.S. Junior pilots are capable of flying true cross country let
>al=
>one contest tasks? Developing Junior XC flying skills is not magic.
It's
>=
>simply a function of inspiration, qualified instruction, and motivation.
>X=
>C soaring is also quite fun to learn and master. It is an extremely
>satisf=
>ying challenge to meet. XC might just challenge our youth pilots enough
>to=
> keep them interested in the sport. That appears to be the case in the
>UK.=
> And the UK is not alone, most European countries are also quite
>successfu=
>l with their youth XC soaring programs.=20
>
>What does all this tell us about the health of U.S. Soaring (SSA)?=20
>
>What does this tell us about our leadership focus, culture, priorities,
>and=
> strategy? What does this tell us about our soaring clubs (many actively
>D=
>ISCOURAGE cross-country flight!)? What does this tell us about our
glider
>=
>instruction culture? Our mentorship results?=20
>
>How can the UK (and many other countries to be perfectly honest) be so
>amaz=
>ingly successful at developing Junior XC soaring energy and while the US
>(S=
>SA) is so impressively "unsuccessful?"=20
>
>We hear the occasional murmurs in the SSA about our falling numbers, poor
>i=
>nternational competition results, aging demographics, etc.=20
>
>Does the USA's lack of an organized and a high priority youth soaring
>progr=
>am bother anyone else? Is there anything to learn here? Is there
>anything=
> that we might want to consider changing? What is our "leadership" doing
>a=
>bout this problem? Do they even recognize it as "a problem?" Is our
lack
>=
>of Junior participation and XC skill development even on the SSA priority
>l=
>ist? On our soaring clubs priority list? What's our strategy? What are
>ou=
>r action items for 2015-2016? Are there any presentations scheduled at
>the=
> upcoming SSA convention?=20
>
>I hope this sparks a productive discussion.=20
>
>Sean=20
>7T
>

[[email protected]]

My local club generally has around 5 kids under the age of 18 in training. Sometimes more, sometimes less. It's all about consistent availability of tows and instructors. Speaking as a father of two pilots. My daughter first soloed at 14-1/2 and my son is about to do the same. Kids these days have lots of things pulling on their time. I know we all have heard stories about in the "old days" working at the field for tows and instructor time and how people worked their way through, but these are really very unique events. For young kids to participate in soaring they need parental support, and lots of it. Oftentimes they need some enticement too. Flying old 2-33's around the patch is about as fun as watching paint dry. It wasn't until I mentioned to my son that he could fly my ship that he really started working at it hard. My deal with him was that when he passed all the requirements for a private license I would pay for the insurance and he could fly my Discus. He is barely over 14 and is about to take the written exam (which he will smoke), and is nearly ready to solo. Once he completes his solo flights and passes a simulated test to PTS standards (he isn't old enough to take the actual test), I will give him his checkout and let him go. The kids involved in the UK programs have support similar to what my kids have. Strong clubs with plenty of modern hardware and knowledgable instructors plus something really cool to aspire too. They don't race in 2-33's. Make it exciting and cool and we won't have just 70, it'll be 7000. Otherwise it will be zero as there are too many other options.


Mark

[[email protected]]

> Before we can host Junior Nationals with 70 plus participants we need to start producing the pilots needed to accomplish this feat. Soaring was not pioneered by a bunch of old men flying expensive super gliders, in many instances the early pioneers were barely more than schoolboys, in small groups resourceful enough to further their ambitions on a shoestring budget.

Build it and they will come. The Australian Junior Nationals started over a decade ago with a handful, and this year there was 31 juniors racing (with a third of the population of the UK).
A big part of the event is experienced senior pilots who bring along two-seaters and teach presolo up to early XC junior pilots how to race alongside the juniors. Dozens of juniors come just for the training, and the next year they come back to race.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 9:53:06 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Some of you might be interested to know that the UK just held its 2015 Junior Nationals a few weeks ago. Nearly 70 juniors pilots (yes, SEVENTY) competed in the event. As an American, I nearly fell over in my chair when I saw the article (and photo of the grid).
>
> Back in the USA, the SSA doesn't even bother to hold a Junior Nationals. I cannot recall when the SSA last held a specific Junior competition? Only a few Junior glider pilots competed in SSA sanctioned contests this year nationwide (even with a hefty discount offer from the SSA). The SSA, to the best of my knowledge, has no real plan or strategy to improve Junior soaring numbers. To be honest, few leaders in the USA seem concerned about truly developing a vibrant junior XC soaring culture. Some even bitterly question if Junior XC or contest participation is relevant or important to the health of the SSA or US Soaring. When is the last time we saw an article, poll or speech on improving youth soaring XC skills/participation/enthusiasm in the SSA or USA?
>
> The UK isn't satisfied with just a highly successful 2015 Junior Nationals. Now the UK is next holding a Junior winter XC series in the coming months. They already have 50 Juniors (FIFTY, not done yet) signed up for the first event in the series. Yesterday, British Soaring (SSA equivalent) was on Facebook soliciting more gliding clubs to "send their dual XC ships with instructors" to keep up with "demand." Amazing.
>
> If the UK is developing this kind of energy and enthusiasm at their youth XC events, what does that say about our nonexistent youth XC training program in the SSA? Yes, these are all XC events and NOT primary training, rides or kiddie playtime. Yes, these events are all equal or larger than the SSA's largest sanctioned contests (Seniors (interesting in and of itself really) and Perry). What benefits does a strong youth XC culture provide the UKs soaring community vs. our own?
>
> The UK equivalent of the SSA has a Junior Development Committee (JDC). Clearly, the UK puts a huge amount of emphasis on this "opportunity." They likely put their best people on it. Does the SSA even have a youth soaring function or officer? Why not? What is more important than a highly developed youth XC soaring culture to a country's soaring future?
>
> How can the UK, a country of only 60 million citizens, be so highly developed in terms of Jr soaring pilot XC skills, proficiency, organization, events and enthusiasm while the USA (a country of some 330 million) doesn't even have an organized Junior program, bother to hold a Junior Nationals or any have real Junior culture whatsoever? They few Juniors we have are left to themselves to figure it out. They have zero funding and little support.
>
> How many U.S. Junior pilots are capable of flying true cross country let alone contest tasks? Developing Junior XC flying skills is not magic. It's simply a function of inspiration, qualified instruction, and motivation. XC soaring is also quite fun to learn and master. It is an extremely satisfying challenge to meet. XC might just challenge our youth pilots enough to keep them interested in the sport. That appears to be the case in the UK. And the UK is not alone, most European countries are also quite successful with their youth XC soaring programs.
>
> What does all this tell us about the health of U.S. Soaring (SSA)?
>
> What does this tell us about our leadership focus, culture, priorities, and strategy? What does this tell us about our soaring clubs (many actively DISCOURAGE cross-country flight!)? What does this tell us about our glider instruction culture? Our mentorship results?
>
> How can the UK (and many other countries to be perfectly honest) be so amazingly successful at developing Junior XC soaring energy and while the US (SSA) is so impressively "unsuccessful?"
>
> We hear the occasional murmurs in the SSA about our falling numbers, poor international competition results, aging demographics, etc.
>
> Does the USA's lack of an organized and a high priority youth soaring program bother anyone else? Is there anything to learn here? Is there anything that we might want to consider changing? What is our "leadership" doing about this problem? Do they even recognize it as "a problem?" Is our lack of Junior participation and XC skill development even on the SSA priority list? On our soaring clubs priority list? What's our strategy? What are our action items for 2015-2016? Are there any presentations scheduled at the upcoming SSA convention?
>
> I hope this sparks a productive discussion.
>
> Sean
> 7T

Geography plays significantly into the difference. The UK, stem to stern, is about 98,000 square miles and about as long as California. California is 156,000 square miles. Heck, Colorado is 104,000 square miles. I could and did start out cross country flights from Enstone GC when cloud base reached 1800agl since I could and did take a relight if I fell out at the next club on course, about 10 miles. Actually, it was in getting home, one thermal short of home plate. In the US, the next club might be 200 miles away, or more. Enstone GC was winch only, quite affordable. Those of us who could also fly from RAF clubs had it doubly good, 50 pence winch launch, land 5 or more hours later. The RAF clubs also had support from the Nuffield Trust. The US had cheap tows for a lot of years. Not so cheap now, nor is land, so many places are stuck with the high cost of aero tows from airfields that are too short for practical winching. Winching is still seen as a novelty by many, but young people dig it, given the chance. Seems like parents need to have their spawn involved in a number of activities these days. If several activities can't be crammed into a Saturday or Sunday, something's wrong. Spending a full day or weekend scouting or soaring appears to be less appealing as it requires a longer commitment. Not sure about today, but in the late 20th century, when the BGA ruled soaring and gliding in the UK, the laws and rules for glider pilots was about a 20 page pamphlet including about 4 pages devoted to trailer lighting, markings, and speed limits on various categories of roads. Gee, such a small place and soaring can co-exist with so much other air traffic. Imagine that. Don't get me wrong. I haven't flown there since 1995 and doubtless, things have changed. Many often point to European gliding organizations getting government support. Although it may be true that sports council grants and other such programs do provide some support, it's usually based on meeting some performance benchmark. In the US, our tax code allows us to form tax exempt and charitable organizations to meet needs in our local communities by recognizing and defining that need and supporting it through charitable gifts. As a result, donors receive a tax deduction. Great system if used properly. A national junior gliding, member-supported, organization is quite doable and desirable as an affiliate or division of the SSA. Big commitment of stewardship required.

The longer you wait, the longer it takes.

Frank Whiteley

[Uk Junior Gliding]

As Gav Goudie alluded to earlier in this thread, UK Junior Gliding was in
dire straights back in 2010. A mixture of a couple of "incidents" and the
recession meant we were down to 15 entries in the 2011 Juniors!

2 groups formed to sort it out.

The first group took on the running of the Junior Nationals. They are
mixture of British Team members and ex juniors who have helped with
everything from directing the Juniors to gaining sponsorship and making
sure the event is seen as a positive for clubs to bid for. The comp is now
one of the best run in the country and is a great platform for young pilots
to test their XC Skills.

The second group - called the Junior Development Team (made up of 4
Current/nearly current Junior pilots lead by a member of the BGA exec) who
would look into the "non-competitive" side of Junior gliding - The aim to
bring in Junior pilots from outside of gliding, and get the smaller clubs
around the country singing from the same hymn sheet by creating a network
of Junior Gliding Centres. If a club wanted to be a JGC then various
issues such as child protection etc which include piles of paperwork that
most club committees don't have the time for was all set out for them in a
template, thus it wasn't such an onerous task. The JGC template has also
lead us to links with the Air Training Corps, Schools and the
Scouts/Guides.

We also have a large Facebook presence and our own YouTube channel run by
the Juniors. Social media has meant we can contact each and every Junior
in 2 clicks with news regarding upcoming events and various bursaries that
are available to keep the cost down.

We created a Winter Series (3 long weekend events at ridge/wave sites per
year) to encourage the Juniors not just to meet once a year at the
nationals but effectively every quarter - thus friendships are maintained
and the pressure of competing is removed in the winter.

Many people put effort into the UK Junior movement. It wouldn't work
without club cooperation, the BGA, volunteers, scholarship/bursaries...the
list goes on.

What we have found is that through the above and many other initiatives is
that we have a thriving group of 50+ Junior pilots and what's more most of
them are only just 18!

Please feel free to email us if you think we could be of any assistance.

Thanks

UK Junior Development Team





At 04:34 10 September 2015, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 9:53:06 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
>> Some of you might be interested to know that the UK just held its 2015
>Ju=
>nior Nationals a few weeks ago. Nearly 70 juniors pilots (yes, SEVENTY)
>co=
>mpeted in the event. As an American, I nearly fell over in my chair when
>I=
> saw the article (and photo of the grid).=20
>>=20
>> Back in the USA, the SSA doesn't even bother to hold a Junior
Nationals.
>=
> I cannot recall when the SSA last held a specific Junior competition?
>Onl=
>y a few Junior glider pilots competed in SSA sanctioned contests this
year
>=
>nationwide (even with a hefty discount offer from the SSA). The SSA, to
>th=
>e best of my knowledge, has no real plan or strategy to improve Junior
>soar=
>ing numbers. To be honest, few leaders in the USA seem concerned about
>tru=
>ly developing a vibrant junior XC soaring culture. Some even bitterly
>ques=
>tion if Junior XC or contest participation is relevant or important to
the
>=
>health of the SSA or US Soaring. When is the last time we saw an
>article,=
> poll or speech on improving youth soaring XC
>skills/participation/enthusia=
>sm in the SSA or USA?=20
>>=20
>> The UK isn't satisfied with just a highly successful 2015 Junior
>National=
>s. Now the UK is next holding a Junior winter XC series in the coming
>mon=
>ths. They already have 50 Juniors (FIFTY, not done yet) signed up for
the
>=
>first event in the series. Yesterday, British Soaring (SSA equivalent)
>was=
> on Facebook soliciting more gliding clubs to "send their dual XC ships
>wit=
>h instructors" to keep up with "demand." Amazing.
>>=20
>> If the UK is developing this kind of energy and enthusiasm at their
>youth=
> XC events, what does that say about our nonexistent youth XC training
>prog=
>ram in the SSA? Yes, these are all XC events and NOT primary training,
>rid=
>es or kiddie playtime. Yes, these events are all equal or larger than
the
>=
>SSA's largest sanctioned contests (Seniors (interesting in and of itself
>re=
>ally) and Perry). What benefits does a strong youth XC culture provide
>the=
> UKs soaring community vs. our own?=20
>>=20
>> The UK equivalent of the SSA has a Junior Development Committee (JDC).
>C=
>learly, the UK puts a huge amount of emphasis on this "opportunity."
They
>=
>likely put their best people on it. Does the SSA even have a youth
>soaring=
> function or officer? Why not? What is more important than a highly
>devel=
>oped youth XC soaring culture to a country's soaring future?
>>=20
>> How can the UK, a country of only 60 million citizens, be so highly
>devel=
>oped in terms of Jr soaring pilot XC skills, proficiency, organization,
>eve=
>nts and enthusiasm while the USA (a country of some 330 million) doesn't
>ev=
>en have an organized Junior program, bother to hold a Junior Nationals or
>a=
>ny have real Junior culture whatsoever? They few Juniors we have are
left
>=
>to themselves to figure it out. They have zero funding and little
>support.=
>=20
>>=20
>> How many U.S. Junior pilots are capable of flying true cross country
let
>=
>alone contest tasks? Developing Junior XC flying skills is not magic.
>It'=
>s simply a function of inspiration, qualified instruction, and
motivation.
>=
> XC soaring is also quite fun to learn and master. It is an extremely
>sati=
>sfying challenge to meet. XC might just challenge our youth pilots
enough
>=
>to keep them interested in the sport. That appears to be the case in the
>U=
>K. And the UK is not alone, most European countries are also quite
>success=
>ful with their youth XC soaring programs.=20
>>=20
>> What does all this tell us about the health of U.S. Soaring (SSA)?=20
>>=20
>> What does this tell us about our leadership focus, culture, priorities,
>a=
>nd strategy? What does this tell us about our soaring clubs (many
>actively=
> DISCOURAGE cross-country flight!)? What does this tell us about our
>glide=
>r instruction culture? Our mentorship results?=20
>>=20
>> How can the UK (and many other countries to be perfectly honest) be so
>am=
>azingly successful at developing Junior XC soaring energy and while the
US
>=
>(SSA) is so impressively "unsuccessful?"=20
>>=20
>> We hear the occasional murmurs in the SSA about our falling numbers,
>poor=
> international competition results, aging demographics, etc.=20
>>=20
>> Does the USA's lack of an organized and a high priority youth soaring
>pro=
>gram bother anyone else? Is there anything to learn here? Is there
>anythi=
>ng that we might want to consider changing? What is our "leadership"
>doing=
> about this problem? Do they even recognize it as "a problem?" Is our
>lac=
>k of Junior participation and XC skill development even on the SSA
>priority=
> list? On our soaring clubs priority list? What's our strategy? What
are
>=
>our action items for 2015-2016? Are there any presentations scheduled at
>t=
>he upcoming SSA convention?=20
>>=20
>> I hope this sparks a productive discussion.=20
>>=20
>> Sean=20
>> 7T
>
>Geography plays significantly into the difference. The UK, stem to
stern,
>=
>is about 98,000 square miles and about as long as California. California
>i=
>s 156,000 square miles. Heck, Colorado is 104,000 square miles. I could
>a=
>nd did start out cross country flights from Enstone GC when cloud base
>reac=
>hed 1800agl since I could and did take a relight if I fell out at the
next
>=
>club on course, about 10 miles. Actually, it was in getting home, one
>therm=
>al short of home plate. In the US, the next club might be 200 miles away,
>o=
>r more. Enstone GC was winch only, quite affordable. Those of us who
>could=
> also fly from RAF clubs had it doubly good, 50 pence winch launch, land
5
>=
>or more hours later. The RAF clubs also had support from the Nuffield
>Trus=
>t. The US had cheap tows for a lot of years. Not so cheap now, nor is
>land=
>, so many places are stuck with the high cost of aero tows from airfields
>t=
>hat are too short for practical winching. Winching is still seen as a
>nove=
>lty by many, but young people dig it, given the chance. Seems like
>parents=
> need to have their spawn involved in a number of activities these days.
>I=
>f several activities can't be crammed into a Saturday or Sunday,
>something'=
>s wrong. Spending a full day or weekend scouting or soaring appears to
be
>=
>less appealing as it requires a longer commitment. Not sure about today,
>b=
>ut in the late 20th century, when the BGA ruled soaring and gliding in
the
>=
>UK, the laws and rules for glider pilots was about a 20 page pamphlet
>inclu=
>ding about 4 pages devoted to trailer lighting, markings, and speed
limits
>=
>on various categories of roads. Gee, such a small place and soaring can
>co=
>-exist with so much other air traffic. Imagine that. Don't get me wrong.

>=
>I haven't flown there since 1995 and doubtless, things have changed.
Many
>=
>often point to European gliding organizations getting government support.

>=
>Although it may be true that sports council grants and other such
programs
>=
>do provide some support, it's usually based on meeting some performance
>ben=
>chmark. In the US, our tax code allows us to form tax exempt and
>charitabl=
>e organizations to meet needs in our local communities by recognizing and
>d=
>efining that need and supporting it through charitable gifts. As a
>result,=
> donors receive a tax deduction. Great system if used properly. A
>nationa=
>l junior gliding, member-supported, organization is quite doable and
>desira=
>ble as an affiliate or division of the SSA. Big commitment of stewardship
>r=
>equired.
>
>The longer you wait, the longer it takes.
>
>Frank Whiteley
>

[gb]

Say a teenager devotes the time and energy into becoming a junior racer in the states. Races a couple of times in nice loaned gliders, turns 18(21?) then what back to the 1-26? Backseat of the 2-33? What becomes of young adult racing pilots?

[ND]

On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 11:53:06 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Some of you might be interested to know that the UK just held its 2015 Junior Nationals a few weeks ago. Nearly 70 juniors pilots (yes, SEVENTY) competed in the event. As an American, I nearly fell over in my chair when I saw the article (and photo of the grid).
>
> Back in the USA, the SSA doesn't even bother to hold a Junior Nationals. I cannot recall when the SSA last held a specific Junior competition? Only a few Junior glider pilots competed in SSA sanctioned contests this year nationwide (even with a hefty discount offer from the SSA). The SSA, to the best of my knowledge, has no real plan or strategy to improve Junior soaring numbers. To be honest, few leaders in the USA seem concerned about truly developing a vibrant junior XC soaring culture. Some even bitterly question if Junior XC or contest participation is relevant or important to the health of the SSA or US Soaring. When is the last time we saw an article, poll or speech on improving youth soaring XC skills/participation/enthusiasm in the SSA or USA?
>
> The UK isn't satisfied with just a highly successful 2015 Junior Nationals. Now the UK is next holding a Junior winter XC series in the coming months. They already have 50 Juniors (FIFTY, not done yet) signed up for the first event in the series. Yesterday, British Soaring (SSA equivalent) was on Facebook soliciting more gliding clubs to "send their dual XC ships with instructors" to keep up with "demand." Amazing.
>
> If the UK is developing this kind of energy and enthusiasm at their youth XC events, what does that say about our nonexistent youth XC training program in the SSA? Yes, these are all XC events and NOT primary training, rides or kiddie playtime. Yes, these events are all equal or larger than the SSA's largest sanctioned contests (Seniors (interesting in and of itself really) and Perry). What benefits does a strong youth XC culture provide the UKs soaring community vs. our own?
>
> The UK equivalent of the SSA has a Junior Development Committee (JDC). Clearly, the UK puts a huge amount of emphasis on this "opportunity." They likely put their best people on it. Does the SSA even have a youth soaring function or officer? Why not? What is more important than a highly developed youth XC soaring culture to a country's soaring future?
>
> How can the UK, a country of only 60 million citizens, be so highly developed in terms of Jr soaring pilot XC skills, proficiency, organization, events and enthusiasm while the USA (a country of some 330 million) doesn't even have an organized Junior program, bother to hold a Junior Nationals or any have real Junior culture whatsoever? They few Juniors we have are left to themselves to figure it out. They have zero funding and little support.
>
> How many U.S. Junior pilots are capable of flying true cross country let alone contest tasks? Developing Junior XC flying skills is not magic. It's simply a function of inspiration, qualified instruction, and motivation. XC soaring is also quite fun to learn and master. It is an extremely satisfying challenge to meet. XC might just challenge our youth pilots enough to keep them interested in the sport. That appears to be the case in the UK. And the UK is not alone, most European countries are also quite successful with their youth XC soaring programs.
>
> What does all this tell us about the health of U.S. Soaring (SSA)?
>
> What does this tell us about our leadership focus, culture, priorities, and strategy? What does this tell us about our soaring clubs (many actively DISCOURAGE cross-country flight!)? What does this tell us about our glider instruction culture? Our mentorship results?
>
> How can the UK (and many other countries to be perfectly honest) be so amazingly successful at developing Junior XC soaring energy and while the US (SSA) is so impressively "unsuccessful?"
>
> We hear the occasional murmurs in the SSA about our falling numbers, poor international competition results, aging demographics, etc.
>
> Does the USA's lack of an organized and a high priority youth soaring program bother anyone else? Is there anything to learn here? Is there anything that we might want to consider changing? What is our "leadership" doing about this problem? Do they even recognize it as "a problem?" Is our lack of Junior participation and XC skill development even on the SSA priority list? On our soaring clubs priority list? What's our strategy? What are our action items for 2015-2016? Are there any presentations scheduled at the upcoming SSA convention?
>
> I hope this sparks a productive discussion.
>
> Sean
> 7T

i think that the club class nationals has been a good start, and will continue to be important. last year we had a group of 9 pilots take a photo and everyone in it except maybe danny sorenson (how old is he?) was under 40. at least three of us were under 30, and two pilots were juniors.

this year, we had daniel, JP, and Boyd participate at the same nationals. i was there too, and i am not yet 30. that's four pilots at the same event under the age of 30. i think we are inching our way slowly in that direction.. Harris hill saw 1 18 year old kid fly two contests this year as a guest, and four others that fall into the junior category fly cross country. and two more of us between 25 and 30.

I don't disagree that we aren't doing good enough, but i see some hope! if we actively initiate a strategy for bringing up junior contest pilots, i think we will see the number grow.

one thing running against us is the geographic limitation. it looks like the farthest anyone there would have had to travel, and this is the EXTREME case, would be 500 miles.

this year i drove 1800 miles to participate, and if boyd wanted to come to the club class nat's this coming year, he'll have to drive 2740 miles. honestly, he'd probably fly and borrow a glider, but flying here still costs. i recognize that he could definitely fly a different contest, but if we are talking a junior specific contest, some would end up traveling a long way.

so i think one thing we need to learn how to overcome or deal with is the geographic aspect of mass junior participation like you describe.

this is a good discussion to have.

[Tim Newport-Peace[_2_]]

At 12:45 10 September 2015, GB wrote:
>Say a teenager devotes the time and energy into becoming a junior racer
in
>the states. Races a couple of times in nice loaned gliders, turns
18(21?)
>then what back to the 1-26? Backseat of the 2-33? What becomes of young
>adult racing pilots?
>
Firstly, in the UK model you are a Junior up to your 25th year. After that
I would expect you will want to assist in bringing the younger Juniors on.
Remember that the UK Junior Momentum comes largely from within.

At the ago of 26, surely you will be earning and not expect further
donations.

Perhaps a further problem is that in the UK Club structure, the clubs are
largely owned by the members, and expect a club fleet to be
competition-worthy. Maybe this structure does not exist in the US model?

[Sean Fidler]

Did anyone know that the UK Junior nationals utilizes a Junior CD, manager, weather-person, etc! How brilliant! If anyone cannot see the genius behind this, I feel sorry for them.

Country size: We could divide the United States into 5 or 6 equal segments of greater population than the UK. To perform equally in terms of juniors, we would need a Junior nationals of some 350 youth pilots! Or 6 regions of 60 Juniors. Geography is not a real problem from this realistic perspective. Geography is a poor and tired excuse for US soaring numbers. We are performing at something like 1% the UKs level right now in terms of Jr's when population size is considered. Essentially, we are a joke.

The question is what are the benefits of a vibrant Junior Cross Country (not pattern flying) program? We would not know in the USA right now because, we absolutely do not have none. We only have a few bright Juniors who are able to participate regardless of the lack of organized junior XC structure or an established junior cross country culture. They are trying to build this on their own with a Facebook page, etc.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/USJRSoaring/

It has 63 members (including a number of adults). It should have 1500+ and 100 of them should be aiming for next years Junior National Championships (but I digress).

Imagine the Junior talent the United States would enjoy if we had 70 such kids flying their own contest every summer. Britain (1/6 the size) has a vibrant youth XC soaring (not pattern licenses) program with literally several hundred Junior pilots either involved or aiming to participate.

The question is what do we value as a soaring country? What are our priorities? What does our soaring leadership value? Where do we invest time and effort? What does the SSA value? What do our soaring instructors value and what are their skills? And most importantly, what do US soaring clubs value? Many of our "soaring?" clubs that actually discourage cross country soaring! I always find that fact amazing.

I would hope that our current SSA leadership sees the importance of organized and successful Junior cross country culture and takes action to rebuild one now. It's a question of priorities. One wonders what else is more important to be honest. As SSA leaders, they have the opportunity to study the problem, put a plan together, organize a team, and inspire a massive country that is essentially forsaking its junior pilots. But this must start at the top and remain a serious priority. Articles, reports, etc.

The SSA convention is in a few months. Let's hope the topic of developing Junior XC soaring is prominent, front and center and not glazed over or status quo (non-existent). We have numerous examples of how other countries are supporting their Juniors. Will our current leaders respond?

I look forward to seeing what happens!

Sean
7T

[Sean Fidler]

Oh and did I mention that most of the USA has far better soaring conditions that the UK ever dreamt of......

[Justin Craig[_3_]]

I can understand the geographical constraints about this in the US, however
the Ozzies seem to have overcome it, get some advise from them.

Perhaps the SSA could invite a UK Junior development bod to present at your
forthcoming conference?

[ND]

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 9:27:48 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Did anyone know that the UK Junior nationals utilizes a Junior CD, manager, weather-person, etc! How brilliant! If anyone cannot see the genius behind this, I feel sorry for them.
>
> Country size: We could divide the United States into 5 or 6 equal segments of greater population than the UK. To perform equally in terms of juniors, we would need a Junior nationals of some 350 youth pilots! Or 6 regions of 60 Juniors. Geography is not a real problem from this realistic perspective. Geography is a poor and tired excuse for US soaring numbers. We are performing at something like 1% the UKs level right now in terms of Jr's when population size is considered. Essentially, we are a joke.
>
> The question is what are the benefits of a vibrant Junior Cross Country (not pattern flying) program? We would not know in the USA right now because, we absolutely do not have none. We only have a few bright Juniors who are able to participate regardless of the lack of organized junior XC structure or an established junior cross country culture. They are trying to build this on their own with a Facebook page, etc.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/USJRSoaring/
>
> It has 63 members (including a number of adults). It should have 1500+ and 100 of them should be aiming for next years Junior National Championships (but I digress).
>
> Imagine the Junior talent the United States would enjoy if we had 70 such kids flying their own contest every summer. Britain (1/6 the size) has a vibrant youth XC soaring (not pattern licenses) program with literally several hundred Junior pilots either involved or aiming to participate.
>
> The question is what do we value as a soaring country? What are our priorities? What does our soaring leadership value? Where do we invest time and effort? What does the SSA value? What do our soaring instructors value and what are their skills? And most importantly, what do US soaring clubs value? Many of our "soaring?" clubs that actually discourage cross country soaring! I always find that fact amazing.
>
> I would hope that our current SSA leadership sees the importance of organized and successful Junior cross country culture and takes action to rebuild one now. It's a question of priorities. One wonders what else is more important to be honest. As SSA leaders, they have the opportunity to study the problem, put a plan together, organize a team, and inspire a massive country that is essentially forsaking its junior pilots. But this must start at the top and remain a serious priority. Articles, reports, etc.
>
> The SSA convention is in a few months. Let's hope the topic of developing Junior XC soaring is prominent, front and center and not glazed over or status quo (non-existent). We have numerous examples of how other countries are supporting their Juniors. Will our current leaders respond?
>
> I look forward to seeing what happens!
>
> Sean
> 7T

Hey Sean,

I wasn't using geography as an excuse for our low number of junior pilots, for the record. I do view the geographic considerations as a significant factor in mass participation at one single event, and I don't think it's a poor excuse at all, but a reality. How many kids with a high-school budget, or U.S. student loan debt can afford to travel across the country with a sailplane? Travel expenses adds several hundred if not $1000 dollars to an already expensive event.

Don't get me wrong, i wasn't trying to pessimistically detract from your vision, but add to the discussion by pointing out a relevant factor as something to think about. a junior national contest in the US will have someone travelling 1500 miles at least. In turn you came back with a 5-6 region proposal. i think all of this is constructive.

as a 28 year old, how do i say this without sounding crass?

I really like flying against younger guys and i would love to see the average age at contests take a dive. It would be great to have junior make up a large percentage of U.S. contests. under the current conditions I think it would only really happen in Club Class or US Sports class because of the cost of the gliders that can be flown reasonably. if you look at the competitor list for Lasham, MOST of them were flying inexpensive club class gliders..

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 9:00:10 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Oh and did I mention that most of the USA has far better soaring conditions that the UK ever dreamt of......

Nonsense.

[Sean Fidler]

:-)

[Gav Goudie[_2_]]

But look at what our sometimes mediocre soaring conditions do for the skill
of
the pilots flying in them...

And we don't dream, we go and fly in those conditions also :-)

At 15:00 10 September 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
>Oh and did I mention that most of the USA has far better soaring
conditions
>that the UK ever dreamt of......
>
>

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

As a one time (long ago) junior who had to give up for a while, I think we're missing the big picture here. Not big team training sessions, not nationals.

If you're a junior, and sort of by definition can't afford to own a glider, where do you get access to a relatively modern glider suitable for learning cross country and contest skills?

European clubs have glass single seat gliders, and encourage memebers to go cross country in them.

The vast majority of American clubs don't have glass gliders, and heaven forbid anyone should take one cross country, least of all the "new kid." The exceptions -- Harris Hill with both good gliders and a strong junior program, for example -- prove the rule.

John Cochrane

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 4:20:14 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
> As a one time (long ago) junior who had to give up for a while, I think we're missing the big picture here. Not big team training sessions, not nationals.
>
> If you're a junior, and sort of by definition can't afford to own a glider, where do you get access to a relatively modern glider suitable for learning cross country and contest skills?
>
> European clubs have glass single seat gliders, and encourage memebers to go cross country in them.
>
> The vast majority of American clubs don't have glass gliders, and heaven forbid anyone should take one cross country, least of all the "new kid." The exceptions -- Harris Hill with both good gliders and a strong junior program, for example -- prove the rule.
>
> John Cochrane

From what I see, most Harris Hill juniors do their first cross countries in the 1-26 or the 1-34. Mostly the 1-34.
I think it is not at all important to have glass available for early cross countries.
For early contests, a 1-34 is fine in sports as long as tasking takes it into account. It is "just" more work to rig and derig.
Liz Schwenkler, from HHSS, won her first regional in the 1-34 and later was the first woman to win a US Nationals since the 1950's. Along the way, she had loaner gliders as she needed them.
It isn't the ships, it's the culture.
UH

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 6:58:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 4:20:14 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
> > As a one time (long ago) junior who had to give up for a while, I think we're missing the big picture here. Not big team training sessions, not nationals.
> >
> > If you're a junior, and sort of by definition can't afford to own a glider, where do you get access to a relatively modern glider suitable for learning cross country and contest skills?
> >
> > European clubs have glass single seat gliders, and encourage memebers to go cross country in them.
> >
> > The vast majority of American clubs don't have glass gliders, and heaven forbid anyone should take one cross country, least of all the "new kid." The exceptions -- Harris Hill with both good gliders and a strong junior program, for example -- prove the rule.
> >
> > John Cochrane
>
> From what I see, most Harris Hill juniors do their first cross countries in the 1-26 or the 1-34. Mostly the 1-34.
> I think it is not at all important to have glass available for early cross countries.
> For early contests, a 1-34 is fine in sports as long as tasking takes it into account. It is "just" more work to rig and derig.
> Liz Schwenkler, from HHSS, won her first regional in the 1-34 and later was the first woman to win a US Nationals since the 1950's. Along the way, she had loaner gliders as she needed them.
> It isn't the ships, it's the culture.
> UH

I tend to agree with Hank. We're making it so much more complicated than it is. It starts with some really hard work - instructing, encouraging, retrieving, etc. The culture comes first. It's a grass-roots effort.

That's not to suggest that a common playbook and institutional support won't be necessary - it will. But first, we have to start with a culture that welcomes and encourages juniors ON THEIR TERMS with support and the rest will follow. I'll put my money where my mouth is and commit to a Region 2 Junior confab and XC camp in the next 2 years. If each of the 12 regions in the US did this with only 5 kids, there's your 60 juniors!

P3

[Sean Fidler]

This guy, Maximillion Seis, just won the day at the Sailpane Grand Prix Final today in Italy and is in first place overall at current. He is 21 years old, French. TWENTY ONE!

I wonder when he started flying cross country?

Amazing.

FAI RANKING PROFILE: http://rankingdata.fai.org/SGP_displaypilotdets.php?pilotid=6795

SGP FINAL RESULTS: http://www.sgp.aero/final2015.aspx?contestID=6157

We need to figure this out and start developing some junior pilots. We need to get out of their way!

[Sean Fidler]

It's as simple as that, let's all work together to build a program for Juniors. The ultimate goal should be a Jr Nationals / party / training session. We should also have a Juniors in Florida before the Seniors around spring break every winter.

Etc, etc.

We need ideas, a plan, and everyone pointed towards the same goal.

But we need a leader...too! Someone who is really motivated and well liked, etc, etc, etc to light the flame and carry the torch. The SSA has to take a leadership role as well AT ALL LEVELS.

Most important the Jrs need to be involved heavily. They are trying hard, and great kids. So are the guys trying to help them...

[Martin Eiler[_3_]]

At 13:27 10 September 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
Numerous snips
>Geography is a poor and tired excuse for US soaring numbers.
>We are performing at something like 1% the UKs level right now
>in terms of Jr's when population size is considered. Essentially,
>we are a joke.
>
>The question is what do we value as a soaring country? What are
>our priorities? What does our soaring leadership value? Where do
>we invest time and effort? What does the SSA value? What do our
>soaring instructors value and what are their skills? And most
>importantly, what do US soaring clubs value? Many of our "soaring?"
>clubs that actually discourage cross country soaring! I always find
>that fact amazing.
>
>I would hope that our current SSA leadership sees the importance
>of organized and successful Junior cross country culture and takes
>action to rebuild one now. It's a question of priorities. One wonders
>what else is more important to be honest. As SSA leaders, they have
>the opportunity to study the problem, put a plan together, organize a
>team, and inspire a massive country that is essentially forsaking its
>junior pilots. But this must start at the top and remain a serious
>priority. Articles, reports, etc.
>
>The SSA convention is in a few months. Let's hope the topic of
>developing Junior XC soaring is prominent, front and center and not
>glazed over or status quo (non-existent). We have numerous
>examples of how other countries are supporting their Juniors. Will
>our current leaders respond? I look forward to seeing what happens!
>Sean 7T

Your position in a nutshell seems to be that the decline in U.S. soaring
is directly attributable to the failure of SSA's leadership to magically
find some way of opening the flood gates for the droves of young
people anxiously waiting to become xc soaring competitors.

Being the staunch soaring competitor you are, I'm sure no one has
any hope of enlightening you to the fact that the steady decline in
soaring is the cumulative effects of a complex myriad of issues.
Which can not be turned around simply by focusing on any single
issue.

For decades I have listened to individuals rants concerning what U.S.
soaring needs. The more common are, cheaper access (more clubs), cheaper
tows (winch launches), more youth, better equipment
(particularly in clubs), better access (to public airports).
Unfortunately
even after many decades the underlying issues are as problematic as
ever. I could seriously argue that the single biggest detriment to
soaring in the U.S. has been the cumulative effects of SSA's historical
failure to work with the FAA in assuring that glider operations were a
normal inclusive part of airport operations and subsequent airport
planning. But that ship sailed a long time ago and U.S. soaring will
forever be paying the price.

But to address your specific current complaints about SSA, there is a
saying. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Rather than stand on the sidelines complaining about SSA leadership,
step up to the plate and in the next elections have a winning platform
and become a regional director. In the mean time spend less time
accusing others of their inadequacies and put that energy into clearly
developing specific detailed plans of action for successfully
implementing the changes you envision. While at the same time lobby
hard in all of the regions to convince the members that your plan is
the right plan for SSA. If you get enough of the membership on board,
they will pressure their directors to work toward that goal. If your
concept is truly credible and the masses agree. Work at establishing
work groups in each region comprised of pilots who agree with your
agenda for fixing soaring. These groups can then work at convincing
current directors of the need to implement necessary changes and eventually
if necessary eventually nominating and electing someone
more in sync with this new philosophy.

From a competition perspective, in spite of having some of the
premier soaring in the U.S.. It has been a long time since Region 12
has had yearly regional contests. Most recently there was no director
election required because the existing region 12 director was unopposed.
If your ideas can be shown to truly have merit, then it shouldn't be
difficult to persuade a group of region 12 pilots to nominate and elect a
director who supports that vision. But just jumping up and down on the
sidelines will have no impact whatsoever.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 4:20:14 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
> As a one time (long ago) junior who had to give up for a while, I think we're missing the big picture here. Not big team training sessions, not nationals.
>
> If you're a junior, and sort of by definition can't afford to own a glider, where do you get access to a relatively modern glider suitable for learning cross country and contest skills?
>
> European clubs have glass single seat gliders, and encourage memebers to go cross country in them.
>
> The vast majority of American clubs don't have glass gliders, and heaven forbid anyone should take one cross country, least of all the "new kid." The exceptions -- Harris Hill with both good gliders and a strong junior program, for example -- prove the rule.
>
> John Cochrane

And Aero Club Albatross. Eternally grateful for the amount of latitude I had with the club equipment from Day One.

As for Erik, he is also working on spawning a junior into the mix. He is training his son and I'd imagine he'll be tearing up the sky in no time.

The discussion regarding equipment is somewhat moot. 1-26s, 1-34s, Glass ships, it really doesn't matter. The bigger issue is the difficulties in logistics and support. Many juniors can't even drive and getting access to a tow vehicle with a hitch is quite difficult. For a year, my "commute" to the airport was three hours one way, taking trains to get to Newark and two club members driving me the rest of the way. Those two club members, Steve and Intis made all the difference for me at that time. They also both crewed for me for my first several cross country flights, with Steve participating on the whimsical retrieve on my Silver Distance. A story for another time.

On the other hand, a good friend of mine at another club who got access to a high performance glider was unable to get this sort of support and did not get involved with cross country flying for quite a while. He just did two cross country flights and his first outlanding. His last flight was 170 miles on quite a challenging day and now is totally hooked.

Another junior pilot found his club to be very hesitant in crewing for him or landing away from his airfield. He does very little cross country flying out of his homebase, most of it in camps and in contests.

This is by far the most difficult hurdle to cross as a junior pilot. I had been very lucky with the resources I have had and the support I received. I hope that other juniors will experience these things and it would be an honor for me to have the opportunity to give back to future junior pilots in a similar capacity. It sure made a difference in my flying.

Best Regards,
Daniel

[Martin Eiler[_3_]]

At 13:27 10 September 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
Numerous snips
>Geography is a poor and tired excuse for US soaring numbers.
>We are performing at something like 1% the UKs level right now
>in terms of Jr's when population size is considered. Essentially,
>we are a joke.
>
>The question is what do we value as a soaring country? What are
>our priorities? What does our soaring leadership value? Where do
>we invest time and effort? What does the SSA value? What do our
>soaring instructors value and what are their skills? And most
>importantly, what do US soaring clubs value? Many of our "soaring?"
>clubs that actually discourage cross country soaring! I always find
>that fact amazing.
>
>I would hope that our current SSA leadership sees the importance
>of organized and successful Junior cross country culture and takes
>action to rebuild one now. It's a question of priorities. One wonders
>what else is more important to be honest. As SSA leaders, they have
>the opportunity to study the problem, put a plan together, organize a
>team, and inspire a massive country that is essentially forsaking its
>junior pilots. But this must start at the top and remain a serious
>priority. Articles, reports, etc.
>
>The SSA convention is in a few months. Let's hope the topic of
>developing Junior XC soaring is prominent, front and center and not
>glazed over or status quo (non-existent). We have numerous
>examples of how other countries are supporting their Juniors. Will
>our current leaders respond? I look forward to seeing what happens!
>Sean 7T

Your position in a nutshell seems to be that the decline in U.S. soaring
is directly attributable to the failure of SSA's leadership to magically
find some way of opening the flood gates for the droves of young
people anxiously waiting to become xc soaring competitors.

Being the staunch soaring competitor you are, I'm sure no one has
any hope of enlightening you to the fact that the steady decline in
soaring is the cumulative effects of a complex myriad of issues.
Which can not be turned around simply by focusing on any single
issue.

For decades I have listened to individuals rants concerning what U.S.
soaring needs. The more common are, cheaper access (more clubs), cheaper
tows (winch launches), more youth, better equipment
(particularly in clubs), better access (to public airports).
Unfortunately
even after many decades the underlying issues are as problematic as
ever. I could seriously argue that the single biggest detriment to
soaring in the U.S. has been the cumulative effects of SSA's historical
failure to work with the FAA in assuring that glider operations were a
normal inclusive part of airport operations and subsequent airport
planning. But that ship sailed a long time ago and U.S. soaring will
forever be paying the price.

But to address your specific current complaints about SSA, there is a
saying. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Rather than stand on the sidelines complaining about SSA leadership,
step up to the plate and in the next elections have a winning platform
and become a regional director. In the mean time spend less time
accusing others of their inadequacies and put that energy into clearly
developing specific detailed plans of action for successfully
implementing the changes you envision. While at the same time lobby
hard in all of the regions to convince the members that your plan is
the right plan for SSA. If you get enough of the membership on board,
they will pressure their directors to work toward that goal. If your
concept is truly credible and the masses agree. Work at establishing
work groups in each region comprised of pilots who agree with your
agenda for fixing soaring. These groups can then work at convincing
current directors of the need to implement necessary changes and eventually
if necessary eventually nominating and electing someone
more in sync with this new philosophy.

From a competition perspective, in spite of having some of the
premier soaring in the U.S.. It has been a long time since Region 12
has had yearly regional contests. Most recently there was no director
election required because the existing region 12 director was unopposed.
If your ideas can be shown to truly have merit, then it shouldn't be
difficult to persuade a group of region 12 pilots to nominate and elect a
director who supports that vision. But just jumping up and down on the
sidelines will have no impact whatsoever.

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 6:24:04 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
> It's as simple as that, let's all work together to build a program for Juniors. The ultimate goal should be a Jr Nationals / party / training session. We should also have a Juniors in Florida before the Seniors around spring break every winter.
>

Are you volunteering to take on leading this effort? If so, good for you!

Andy
9B

[Andy Gough[_2_]]

On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 1:17:57 AM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 6:24:04 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > It's as simple as that, let's all work together to build a program for Juniors. The ultimate goal should be a Jr Nationals / party / training session. We should also have a Juniors in Florida before the Seniors around spring break every winter.
> >
>
> Are you volunteering to take on leading this effort? If so, good for you!
>
> Andy
> 9B

A Greek proverb:

"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."

A similar Chinese proverb and appropriate to this thread:

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."

It's time stop to churning up the dirt to see if there is any life to be salvaged in our dwindling contest scene. Start the process of renewal, turn a few spades and plant some trees.

[Sean Fidler]

The big question is why is someone on "the sidelines" required to bring this up? Why is this not the SSAs highest priority already? What are the current leaders really focused on?

Your correct. I'm not involved in the SSA leadership. This is absolutely true. I am simply one person making a point (on RAS) about our lack of a U..S. Jr cross country culture. I say plainly that our Jrs are pattern pilots with almost zero opportunity to learn true soaring like their peers in Europe, Australia and elsewhere. I say that is a shame, an utter failure of leadership and is THE REASON why our sport is on the decline.

He who lives in a glass house (whatever the hell that means). Are you not being a "tad" dramatic? If pointing out our lack of a junior nationals in the US bothers anyone, I do not give a flying crap. Deal with it however you must.

What the SSA does about this failure is entirely up to them. Yep, it probably will result in diddly squat. Most SSA members are focused on only what directly effects them in the next 12 months (contest rules, club politics, ADSB, etc). Leaders must broader vision and stategy. Do we have effective leaders? We shall see.

As for me, fire away all you wish. Yawn.

[Sean Fidler]

The big question is why is some nobody on "the sidelines" required to bring this up? Why is this not the SSAs highest priority already? What are the current leaders really focused on?

You're correct. I'm not involved in the SSA leadership. This is absolutely true. I am simply one person making a point (on RAS) about our lack of a U.S. Jr cross country culture. It strikes me as painfully obvious and critically important. I say plainly that our juniors are merely trained to be pattern pilots with almost zero encouragement or opportunity to learn true XC soaring like their peers in Europe, Australia and elsewhere. I say that is a crying shame, an utter failure of our leadership and is THE REASON why our sport is on the decline in the USA.

"He who lives in a glass house..." (whatever the hell that means). Are you not being a "tad" dramatic? If pointing out our lack of a junior nationals (or even junior cross country pilots) in the US bothers anyone, I honestly do not give a flying crap. Deal with it however you must.

What the "SSA does!" about this failure is entirely up to them. Yep, my thread here probably will result in diddly squat. Most SSA members are narrowly focused on only what directly effects them in the next 12 months (contest rules, club politics, ADSB, etc). Most SSA members and clubs are not concerned about developing junior cross country pilots at all. Leaders must have broader vision and stategy. Leaders must LEAD! Do we have effective leaders? We shall see.

As for me, fire away all you wish. Yawn. This is what I do for fun. You would not believe what I do when I am serious, trust me.

[Alexander Swagemakers[_2_]]

In Germany there are more than 15 gliders given to junior pilots each year ranging from Libelle to Nimbus 4. Five of those are distributed on a national level. Most larger federal soaring associations also provide multiple gliders for youth promotion on a regional level. All of these gliders were privatly financed/donated at one time or another. We are not talking about state financing or our soaring association paying for everything. In most cases small clubs/trusts are founded to maintain these gliders by collecting donations and fees from supporting members. Current junior pilots take care of most maintenance work. Administration is done on an honorary basis. Former pilots chip in donations later in life when they can afford it. Whenever possible these gliders are updated to more current models, usually by collecting donations. Since gliders hardly lose value the bulk financing of a new glider can be achieved by selling the old ones. Do this steadily across more than 30 years and you see former LS1 evolve into a Discus 2ct spreading the financial burden over decades.

You are not going to copy almost a century of european gliding club culture in the States any time soon, but setting up two or three gliders for promoting junior soaring should be easy enough. A fully world championship competition ready club class glider need not cost cost more than 12k EUR in good condition with a resonable trailer (If you don't believe me, I have got one for sale). The cost of suberb instrumentation is a joke with prices of full featured variometer systems of the late nineties bottoming out and XCsoar outperforming the commercial alternatives on many details. A fully competition ready glider has never been cheaper than today.

Forget any national bodies like the SSA to take the initiative. If you want something to change then do it yourself. Find your XC enthousiastic friends, found a trust, collect donations, buy some nice club class gliders (or whatever you can afford) and find your worthy juniors to support.

[Sean Fidler]

Interesting post Alexander. Amazing insight. Thanks!

[[email protected]]

On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 10:52:36 AM UTC-4, Alexander Swagemakers wrote:
> In Germany there are more than 15 gliders given to junior pilots each year ranging from Libelle to Nimbus 4. Five of those are distributed on a national level. Most larger federal soaring associations also provide multiple gliders for youth promotion on a regional level. All of these gliders were privatly financed/donated at one time or another. We are not talking about state financing or our soaring association paying for everything. In most cases small clubs/trusts are founded to maintain these gliders by collecting donations and fees from supporting members. Current junior pilots take care of most maintenance work. Administration is done on an honorary basis. Former pilots chip in donations later in life when they can afford it. Whenever possible these gliders are updated to more current models, usually by collecting donations. Since gliders hardly lose value the bulk financing of a new glider can be achieved by selling the old ones. Do this steadily across more than 30 years and you see former LS1 evolve into a Discus 2ct spreading the financial burden over decades.
>
> You are not going to copy almost a century of european gliding club culture in the States any time soon, but setting up two or three gliders for promoting junior soaring should be easy enough. A fully world championship competition ready club class glider need not cost cost more than 12k EUR in good condition with a resonable trailer (If you don't believe me, I have got one for sale). The cost of suberb instrumentation is a joke with prices of full featured variometer systems of the late nineties bottoming out and XCsoar outperforming the commercial alternatives on many details. A fully competition ready glider has never been cheaper than today.
>
> Forget any national bodies like the SSA to take the initiative. If you want something to change then do it yourself. Find your XC enthousiastic friends, found a trust, collect donations, buy some nice club class gliders (or whatever you can afford) and find your worthy juniors to support.

I suspect we have a few in the US but nobody keeps count.
At my club in NY, the juniors have 2 gliders free of cost. They have a 1-26 for early flying after solo, and a Std Libelle after they complete the private certificate.
Harris Hill has a Discus dedicated to the juniors.
Anybody else know of club ships dedicated to juniors in the US?
UH

[Sean Fidler]

Hank,

Your club and Harris Hill are way ahead of the curve (but still need to go further). We need dozens, hundreds more clubs like those and a special program for elite Jrs as well. Our biggest obstacle are clubs that actively discourage cross country. Not just for Juniors. First step is to understand the true nature of the problem better. Most, I suspect, would argue that no cross country is not a problem.

Sean

[GeneReinecke]

I for one like the direction this discussion has taken. By RAS standards it has been relatively respectful. Kudos Sean for bringing it up and taking a bit of heat. A bit of heat, a bit of sage advice, a few examples how locals HAVE stepped up.

In my backyard, I have seen responses to local efforts to increase youth and not so young soaring range from "Why help others?-I paid for my own soaring as a teen" to "I want my older glider to be flown by others but don't know how to set it up."

Ironically, we have several 2-33, 1-26 era gliders sitting unused all season mainly due to a shortage of instructors willing/able to put them to use.
I say, increase the pool of instructors and you will naturally raise the number of students.

And having given more than a few orientation rides to Civil Air Patrol cadets in gliders and airplanes I can tell you personally there is a ready demand for kids who want to "Slip the Surly Bonds" despite the competition of video games, motorsports and teenagers of the opposite sex!

One more thought (might be a bit deep for RAS): We sometimes say "Someday, when _______, I will do more for my sport, community, charities, etc." We all know at any age we are currently, some of our friends and relatives never make it to "someday." Why not do something today?!

Cheers
Gene Reinecke

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, September 12, 2015 at 9:49:30 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Hank,
>
> Your club and Harris Hill are way ahead of the curve (but still need to go further). We need dozens, hundreds more clubs like those and a special program for elite Jrs as well. Our biggest obstacle are clubs that actively discourage cross country. Not just for Juniors. First step is to understand the true nature of the problem better. Most, I suspect, would argue that no cross country is not a problem.
>
> Sean

One very real factor, my partner pointed out, is that club equipment is there for many to use. Taking a club ship all day can mean that someone doesn't get to fly. If that happens too often, people stop coming because not all can afford their own ship. We do give preference to pilots doing a badge leg.
Just one more thing that complicates flying XC in club machines. We encourage it, but I can see how some clubs might not.
I realize you will find this not at all acceptable, but it is a reality in many smaller clubs.
The solution is to grow bigger so the club can support more gliders. That is not a fast process but is doable with effort.
UH

[Sean Fidler]

Good point. We need a balance for sure. Right now the balance is pretty full in the "not cross country" direction at most clubs. Not having gliders to fly because they are all out flying XC would really be a good problem to have initially...

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Good point. We need a balance for sure. Right now the balance is pretty full in the "not cross country" direction at most clubs. Not having gliders to fly because they are all out flying XC would really be a good problem to have initially...


A little data (thanks to Frank Whiteley).

There are 37 clubs in the US with at least 5 SSA youth members. The total number is 351. If you add the smaller club programs, juniors not on youth memberships or non-SSA members and juniors flying at commercial operations, maybe there are 400-500 juniors currently flying gliders in the US. If even a third of them are reasonably committed that is something we can work with..

There is also the Collegiate Soaring Association, a 501(c)3 with an assortment of glider equipment. It's unclear to me the current level of activity within the CSA and I understand that there are issues with the bylaws of the CSA that restrict how the equipment can be used. Something to look into.

I've been noodling on a few ideas for about a year now and have come to the conclusion that we really need to understand better where the bottleneck is: intake (seems not from the data), getting to solo, getting to first XC or getting to advanced XC/racing-ready? We also need to understand the state of the junior population and what the constraints are. The solution really needs to fit the problem - even then it would take energy, commitment and resources.

I've also discovered with just a little digging that thoughtful and generous people have been working on these issues for quite some time, but results have been, well, uneven. Hip-shooting solutions will likely waste time and energy and have little impact. I'd suggest a hard look at where we stand and some directed creativity to see if we can't come up with new approaches and focused investment (of time and money) to make some progress.

I'm willing to do some work on it, but for now I'm still counting leeches from the last r.a.s. racing discussion.

Andy Blackburn
9B

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 11:22:38 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:

> I've been noodling on a few ideas for about a year now and have come to the conclusion that we really need to understand better where the bottleneck is: intake (seems not from the data), getting to solo, getting to first XC or getting to advanced XC/racing-ready? We also need to understand the state of the junior population and what the constraints are. The solution really needs to fit the problem - even then it would take energy, commitment and resources.
>

In addition to the bottlenecks to progress there needs to be an assessment of where we lose juniors in the process because it's pretty obvious that not all of them are making it into full-fledged XC and racing pilots as adults. Do the commitments of the last couple of years of high school get them? College? Moving into the working world? It's not just development, but retention that need a hard, analytical look. Right now we have a good number of opinions and anecdotes that can lead us where to look, but how much of what effects prevail when and where probably needs to be assessed at more than a cursory level. I've heard heartfelt proposed solutions over the years that I suspect a first-order look at the actual data would show to be fruitless.

Andy

[Andy Gough[_2_]]

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 2:45:41 AM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 11:22:38 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
>
> > I've been noodling on a few ideas for about a year now and have come to the conclusion that we really need to understand better where the bottleneck is: intake (seems not from the data), getting to solo, getting to first XC or getting to advanced XC/racing-ready? We also need to understand the state of the junior population and what the constraints are. The solution really needs to fit the problem - even then it would take energy, commitment and resources.
> >
>
> In addition to the bottlenecks to progress there needs to be an assessment of where we lose juniors in the process because it's pretty obvious that not all of them are making it into full-fledged XC and racing pilots as adults. Do the commitments of the last couple of years of high school get them? College? Moving into the working world? It's not just development, but retention that need a hard, analytical look. Right now we have a good number of opinions and anecdotes that can lead us where to look, but how much of what effects prevail when and where probably needs to be assessed at more than a cursory level. I've heard heartfelt proposed solutions over the years that I suspect a first-order look at the actual data would show to be fruitless.
>
> Andy

There is a long way to go before we can begin to emulate the European gliding scene and as Alexander Schwagermakers pointed out you need to start somewhere. I believe the start point is long before the provision of contest aircraft for juniors to fly.

Club's must be willing to promote cross country and just as important is the organization of club resources to attain the objective. The clever ones would plan their fleets to provide aircraft for a variety of flying opportunities and promote standards that once attained would allow pilots to advance to higher performance aircraft. The aircraft at the top of the scale would be maintained expressly for cross country. The example citing the inconvenience to a member who would have to forfeit his flight to a cross country pilot would not occur, e.g. an LS4 is not a local soaring aircraft, for a one hour float around the airfield a 1-26, Ka8 or similar glider is perfectly adequate. Some clubs in Europe refine this process by allocating aircraft on a daily basis for cross country soaring. Not only is an aircraft allocated, also a weather briefing is conducted and a task set. Pilots who are not allocated an aircraft become willing retrieve crew knowing they will have the benefit of the same when it is their turn to fly. Pilots who are allocated an aircraft have the incentive to attempt the task knowing help has already been organized should they need a retrieve. Just like gaggle flying, groups can get better results even when conditions are not optimal.

The Europeans who have contributed to this discussion have intimated the club culture in Europe encourages cross country regardless of age. Sean is convinced this is not the case this side of the pond, I concur. Not every pilot is going to become a contest pilot, the same for juniors but many more would if cross country flying was made available and promoted in a meaningful way. Low costs and the availability of aircraft go a long way to enabling more pilots to gain the time and skills cross country flying requires. Convince the clubs that it is in their best interests to organize their activities to promote higher standards that lead to cross country flying and we might have a starting point for a revival.

[Sean Fidler]

Very well said.

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 12:15:51 PM UTC-7, Andy Gough wrote:
> On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 2:45:41 AM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 11:22:38 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> >
> > > I've been noodling on a few ideas for about a year now and have come to the conclusion that we really need to understand better where the bottleneck is: intake (seems not from the data), getting to solo, getting to first XC or getting to advanced XC/racing-ready? We also need to understand the state of the junior population and what the constraints are. The solution really needs to fit the problem - even then it would take energy, commitment and resources.
> > >
> >
> > In addition to the bottlenecks to progress there needs to be an assessment of where we lose juniors in the process because it's pretty obvious that not all of them are making it into full-fledged XC and racing pilots as adults. Do the commitments of the last couple of years of high school get them? College? Moving into the working world? It's not just development, but retention that need a hard, analytical look. Right now we have a good number of opinions and anecdotes that can lead us where to look, but how much of what effects prevail when and where probably needs to be assessed at more than a cursory level. I've heard heartfelt proposed solutions over the years that I suspect a first-order look at the actual data would show to be fruitless.
> >
> > Andy
>
> There is a long way to go before we can begin to emulate the European gliding scene and as Alexander Schwagermakers pointed out you need to start somewhere. I believe the start point is long before the provision of contest aircraft for juniors to fly.
>
> Club's must be willing to promote cross country and just as important is the organization of club resources to attain the objective. The clever ones would plan their fleets to provide aircraft for a variety of flying opportunities and promote standards that once attained would allow pilots to advance to higher performance aircraft. The aircraft at the top of the scale would be maintained expressly for cross country. The example citing the inconvenience to a member who would have to forfeit his flight to a cross country pilot would not occur, e.g. an LS4 is not a local soaring aircraft, for a one hour float around the airfield a 1-26, Ka8 or similar glider is perfectly adequate. Some clubs in Europe refine this process by allocating aircraft on a daily basis for cross country soaring. Not only is an aircraft allocated, also a weather briefing is conducted and a task set. Pilots who are not allocated an aircraft become willing retrieve crew knowing they will have the benefit of the same when it is their turn to fly. Pilots who are allocated an aircraft have the incentive to attempt the task knowing help has already been organized should they need a retrieve. Just like gaggle flying, groups can get better results even when conditions are not optimal.
>
> The Europeans who have contributed to this discussion have intimated the club culture in Europe encourages cross country regardless of age. Sean is convinced this is not the case this side of the pond, I concur. Not every pilot is going to become a contest pilot, the same for juniors but many more would if cross country flying was made available and promoted in a meaningful way. Low costs and the availability of aircraft go a long way to enabling more pilots to gain the time and skills cross country flying requires. Convince the clubs that it is in their best interests to organize their activities to promote higher standards that lead to cross country flying and we might have a starting point for a revival.

Here's an additional challenge. About a year ago I took a look at the club fleet as listed on the "where to fly" section of SSA.org. It appears that the numbers of even two-generations-old fiberglass aircraft in the US fleet is extremely limited - like a handful. Maybe that's not totally up-to-date, but it seems likely that not only is it possible that club policies may restrict pilots of any age from going cross-country, but the equipment itself isn't all that suited for the task. Not that you can't go cross-country in a 1-26, but, as I can personally can attest from my early days flying cross-county in a 1-34, it's not exactly a picnic.

I'd be curious to know the exact level of development of the nearly 800 youth pilots currently holding SSA memberships. That's a pretty decent number, but if there is limited development, or ability to build skills, then that's the first problem - be it policies, equipment or some combination.

Andy
9B

[Roger Hurley[_2_]]

At 19:15 14 September 2015, Andy Gough wrote:
>On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 2:45:41 AM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
>> On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 11:22:38 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn
wrote:
>>=20
>> > I've been noodling on a few ideas for about a year now and have come
>to=
> the conclusion that we really need to understand better where the
>bottlene=
>ck is: intake (seems not from the data), getting to solo, getting to
first
>=
>XC or getting to advanced XC/racing-ready? We also need to understand the
>s=
>tate of the junior population and what the constraints are. The solution
>re=
>ally needs to fit the problem - even then it would take energy,
commitment
>=
>and resources.=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> In addition to the bottlenecks to progress there needs to be an
>assessmen=
>t of where we lose juniors in the process because it's pretty obvious
that
>=
>not all of them are making it into full-fledged XC and racing pilots as
>adu=
>lts. Do the commitments of the last couple of years of high school get
>them=
>? College? Moving into the working world? It's not just development, but
>re=
>tention that need a hard, analytical look. Right now we have a good
number
>=
>of opinions and anecdotes that can lead us where to look, but how much of
>w=
>hat effects prevail when and where probably needs to be assessed at more
>th=
>an a cursory level. I've heard heartfelt proposed solutions over the
years
>=
>that I suspect a first-order look at the actual data would show to be
>fruit=
>less.
>>=20
>> Andy
>
>There is a long way to go before we can begin to emulate the European
>glidi=
>ng scene and as Alexander Schwagermakers pointed out you need to start
>some=
>where. I believe the start point is long before the provision of contest
>ai=
>rcraft for juniors to fly.
>
>Club's must be willing to promote cross country and just as important is
>th=
>e organization of club resources to attain the objective. The clever ones
>w=
>ould plan their fleets to provide aircraft for a variety of flying
>opportun=
>ities and promote standards that once attained would allow pilots to
>advanc=
>e to higher performance aircraft. The aircraft at the top of the scale
>woul=
>d be maintained expressly for cross country. The example citing the
>inconve=
>nience to a member who would have to forfeit his flight to a cross
country
>=
>pilot would not occur, e.g. an LS4 is not a local soaring aircraft, for a
>o=
>ne hour float around the airfield a 1-26, Ka8 or similar glider is
>perfectl=
>y adequate. Some clubs in Europe refine this process by allocating
>aircraft=
> on a daily basis for cross country soaring. Not only is an aircraft
>alloca=
>ted, also a weather briefing is conducted and a task set. Pilots who are
>no=
>t allocated an aircraft become willing retrieve crew knowing they will
>have=
> the benefit of the same when it is their turn to fly. Pilots who are
>alloc=
>ated an aircraft have the incentive to attempt the task knowing help has
>al=
>ready been organized should they need a retrieve. Just like gaggle
flying,
>=
>groups can get better results even when conditions are not optimal.
>
>The Europeans who have contributed to this discussion have intimated the
>cl=
>ub culture in Europe encourages cross country regardless of age. Sean is
>co=
>nvinced this is not the case this side of the pond, I concur. Not every
>pil=
>ot is going to become a contest pilot, the same for juniors but many more
>w=
>ould if cross country flying was made available and promoted in a
>meaningfu=
>l way. Low costs and the availability of aircraft go a long way to
>enabling=
> more pilots to gain the time and skills cross country flying requires.
>Con=
>vince the clubs that it is in their best interests to organize their
>activi=
>ties to promote higher standards that lead to cross country flying and we
>m=
>ight have a starting point for a revival.


Interesting thread, and really a continuation of the “How do we
inspire� topic that Sean began here
http://ras.gliderpilot.net/?op=s2&id=282714&vt= and Andy Gough has it.
I would guess not many joggers jog competitively- if they were told that to
enjoy their recreation they had to race I suspect the majority response
might be rude. Not many glider pilots race competitively – what is it
5%, maybe only 2%. Soaring, even cross-country soaring is, for most, not a
race. I think those promoting soaring as a primarily competitive endeavour
do it no favours.

That's one thing. The other is the club thing. I've heard it said what
clubs need is more people like them. Many have a choice of one and,
depending on the club, Joe Public might think “Jeez no way I'm joining
that�. And some are clubmen, some just aren't. Long-time club
membership declines should encourage us to conclude there simply are not
enough “people like them� out there and to broaden the appeal stuff
needs fixing (I know its not the same everywhere). If the clubs are the
problem, the only alternative is that newcomers don't have to join them to
go soaring. Another discussion.

Showing newbies soaring and how its done as a “why we do it� and, at
the right point cross-country soaring too, without having them believe its
all about racing, could bring better results. The club culture thing is
harder. It should be the case that folk join clubs because they want to
not because they have to. Cross-country soaring should be an easy and
achievable aspiration but not all will want to do it. Of those that do
get the XC bug we cannot expect much more than the existing tiny minority
to have the commitment, time and money to take it as far as racing.
Therefore, to end up with more racing pilots means starting with a whole
lot more cross-country “joggers�, most of whom will quite reasonably
only ever want to enjoy the jogging.


>

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 3:15:51 PM UTC-4, Andy Gough wrote:
> On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 2:45:41 AM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 11:22:38 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> >
> > > I've been noodling on a few ideas for about a year now and have come to the conclusion that we really need to understand better where the bottleneck is: intake (seems not from the data), getting to solo, getting to first XC or getting to advanced XC/racing-ready? We also need to understand the state of the junior population and what the constraints are. The solution really needs to fit the problem - even then it would take energy, commitment and resources.
> > >
> >
> > In addition to the bottlenecks to progress there needs to be an assessment of where we lose juniors in the process because it's pretty obvious that not all of them are making it into full-fledged XC and racing pilots as adults. Do the commitments of the last couple of years of high school get them? College? Moving into the working world? It's not just development, but retention that need a hard, analytical look. Right now we have a good number of opinions and anecdotes that can lead us where to look, but how much of what effects prevail when and where probably needs to be assessed at more than a cursory level. I've heard heartfelt proposed solutions over the years that I suspect a first-order look at the actual data would show to be fruitless.
> >
> > Andy
>
> There is a long way to go before we can begin to emulate the European gliding scene and as Alexander Schwagermakers pointed out you need to start somewhere. I believe the start point is long before the provision of contest aircraft for juniors to fly.
>
> Club's must be willing to promote cross country and just as important is the organization of club resources to attain the objective. The clever ones would plan their fleets to provide aircraft for a variety of flying opportunities and promote standards that once attained would allow pilots to advance to higher performance aircraft. The aircraft at the top of the scale would be maintained expressly for cross country. The example citing the inconvenience to a member who would have to forfeit his flight to a cross country pilot would not occur, e.g. an LS4 is not a local soaring aircraft, for a one hour float around the airfield a 1-26, Ka8 or similar glider is perfectly adequate. Some clubs in Europe refine this process by allocating aircraft on a daily basis for cross country soaring. Not only is an aircraft allocated, also a weather briefing is conducted and a task set. Pilots who are not allocated an aircraft become willing retrieve crew knowing they will have the benefit of the same when it is their turn to fly. Pilots who are allocated an aircraft have the incentive to attempt the task knowing help has already been organized should they need a retrieve. Just like gaggle flying, groups can get better results even when conditions are not optimal.
>
> The Europeans who have contributed to this discussion have intimated the club culture in Europe encourages cross country regardless of age. Sean is convinced this is not the case this side of the pond, I concur. Not every pilot is going to become a contest pilot, the same for juniors but many more would if cross country flying was made available and promoted in a meaningful way. Low costs and the availability of aircraft go a long way to enabling more pilots to gain the time and skills cross country flying requires. Convince the clubs that it is in their best interests to organize their activities to promote higher standards that lead to cross country flying and we might have a starting point for a revival.

+100. It requires real work to create an XC culture in a club. There are plenty of clubs in the US with high-class fleets that never go more than 10 miles from the home field. There are clubs with ratty (but capable) gliders that rack up the OLC points and badges. While a well-organized approach would be best, even seemingly tactical activities are better than nothing.

Greg Delp just organized a very successful OLC weekend at a small club in Connecticut. I'd venture a guess that there wasn't a large committee involved. Just a couple of sparkplugs.

If each SSA Director or State Governor simply made an effort to promote XC and Junior XC in particular in his/her region, it would only take a relatively small number of "hits" to generate a reasonable population of junior XC pilots in the US. Once there are a few converts in a club or region, there's a critical mass to hold a local junior get together with maybe 10 pilots. But, typing on RAS and bashing the "system" won't get it done.

To steal a line from Nike: Just Do It.

p3

[Sean Fidler]

Seems to be working a little bit!

"If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." -Sun Tzu

Sean
7T

On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 11:34:01 AM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:
> On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 3:15:51 PM UTC-4, Andy Gough wrote:
> > On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 2:45:41 AM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 11:22:38 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > >
> > > > I've been noodling on a few ideas for about a year now and have come to the conclusion that we really need to understand better where the bottleneck is: intake (seems not from the data), getting to solo, getting to first XC or getting to advanced XC/racing-ready? We also need to understand the state of the junior population and what the constraints are. The solution really needs to fit the problem - even then it would take energy, commitment and resources.
> > > >
> > >
> > > In addition to the bottlenecks to progress there needs to be an assessment of where we lose juniors in the process because it's pretty obvious that not all of them are making it into full-fledged XC and racing pilots as adults. Do the commitments of the last couple of years of high school get them? College? Moving into the working world? It's not just development, but retention that need a hard, analytical look. Right now we have a good number of opinions and anecdotes that can lead us where to look, but how much of what effects prevail when and where probably needs to be assessed at more than a cursory level. I've heard heartfelt proposed solutions over the years that I suspect a first-order look at the actual data would show to be fruitless.
> > >
> > > Andy
> >
> > There is a long way to go before we can begin to emulate the European gliding scene and as Alexander Schwagermakers pointed out you need to start somewhere. I believe the start point is long before the provision of contest aircraft for juniors to fly.
> >
> > Club's must be willing to promote cross country and just as important is the organization of club resources to attain the objective. The clever ones would plan their fleets to provide aircraft for a variety of flying opportunities and promote standards that once attained would allow pilots to advance to higher performance aircraft. The aircraft at the top of the scale would be maintained expressly for cross country. The example citing the inconvenience to a member who would have to forfeit his flight to a cross country pilot would not occur, e.g. an LS4 is not a local soaring aircraft, for a one hour float around the airfield a 1-26, Ka8 or similar glider is perfectly adequate. Some clubs in Europe refine this process by allocating aircraft on a daily basis for cross country soaring. Not only is an aircraft allocated, also a weather briefing is conducted and a task set. Pilots who are not allocated an aircraft become willing retrieve crew knowing they will have the benefit of the same when it is their turn to fly. Pilots who are allocated an aircraft have the incentive to attempt the task knowing help has already been organized should they need a retrieve. Just like gaggle flying, groups can get better results even when conditions are not optimal.
> >
> > The Europeans who have contributed to this discussion have intimated the club culture in Europe encourages cross country regardless of age. Sean is convinced this is not the case this side of the pond, I concur. Not every pilot is going to become a contest pilot, the same for juniors but many more would if cross country flying was made available and promoted in a meaningful way. Low costs and the availability of aircraft go a long way to enabling more pilots to gain the time and skills cross country flying requires. Convince the clubs that it is in their best interests to organize their activities to promote higher standards that lead to cross country flying and we might have a starting point for a revival.
>
> +100. It requires real work to create an XC culture in a club. There are plenty of clubs in the US with high-class fleets that never go more than 10 miles from the home field. There are clubs with ratty (but capable) gliders that rack up the OLC points and badges. While a well-organized approach would be best, even seemingly tactical activities are better than nothing.
>
> Greg Delp just organized a very successful OLC weekend at a small club in Connecticut. I'd venture a guess that there wasn't a large committee involved. Just a couple of sparkplugs.
>
> If each SSA Director or State Governor simply made an effort to promote XC and Junior XC in particular in his/her region, it would only take a relatively small number of "hits" to generate a reasonable population of junior XC pilots in the US. Once there are a few converts in a club or region, there's a critical mass to hold a local junior get together with maybe 10 pilots. But, typing on RAS and bashing the "system" won't get it done.
>
> To steal a line from Nike: Just Do It.
>
> p3

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

I hope I will know more later in the year ,I have volunteered to fly some
in
my duo when the circus visits my club in October .
From what I remember when my kids were juniors ,
They learn at a ferocious rate though not necessary consciously and have
reflexes that you have forgotten about.
The partying is nearly as important and it's the peer pressure keeps them
trying.
My old Chief flying instructors worried more about the conciencious 60 year

old early solo pilot than the 16 year old ,the junior will sort it out ,the
senior
will still be thinking about it when the sinsipient has turned into a
......
Remember fighter pilots are usually young or at least used to be.

At 16:41 15 September 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
>Seems to be working a little bit!
>
>"If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him."
-Sun
>=
>Tzu
>
>Sean
>7T
>
>On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 11:34:01 AM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:
>> On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 3:15:51 PM UTC-4, Andy Gough
wrote:
>> > On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 2:45:41 AM UTC-4, Andy
Blackburn
>wrote=
>:
>> > > On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 11:22:38 PM UTC-7, Andy
Blackburn
>wr=
>ote:
>> > >=20
>> > > > I've been noodling on a few ideas for about a year now and have
>com=
>e to the conclusion that we really need to understand better where the
>bott=
>leneck is: intake (seems not from the data), getting to solo, getting to
>fi=
>rst XC or getting to advanced XC/racing-ready? We also need to understand
>t=
>he state of the junior population and what the constraints are. The
>solutio=
>n really needs to fit the problem - even then it would take energy,
>commitm=
>ent and resources.=20
>> > > >=20
>> > >=20
>> > > In addition to the bottlenecks to progress there needs to be an
>asses=
>sment of where we lose juniors in the process because it's pretty obvious
>t=
>hat not all of them are making it into full-fledged XC and racing pilots
>as=
> adults. Do the commitments of the last couple of years of high school
get
>=
>them? College? Moving into the working world? It's not just development,
>bu=
>t retention that need a hard, analytical look. Right now we have a good
>num=
>ber of opinions and anecdotes that can lead us where to look, but how
much
>=
>of what effects prevail when and where probably needs to be assessed at
>mor=
>e than a cursory level. I've heard heartfelt proposed solutions over the
>ye=
>ars that I suspect a first-order look at the actual data would show to be
>f=
>ruitless.
>> > >=20
>> > > Andy
>> >=20
>> > There is a long way to go before we can begin to emulate the European
>g=
>liding scene and as Alexander Schwagermakers pointed out you need to
start
>=
>somewhere. I believe the start point is long before the provision of
>contes=
>t aircraft for juniors to fly.
>> >=20
>> > Club's must be willing to promote cross country and just as important
>i=
>s the organization of club resources to attain the objective. The clever
>on=
>es would plan their fleets to provide aircraft for a variety of flying
>oppo=
>rtunities and promote standards that once attained would allow pilots to
>ad=
>vance to higher performance aircraft. The aircraft at the top of the
scale
>=
>would be maintained expressly for cross country. The example citing the
>inc=
>onvenience to a member who would have to forfeit his flight to a cross
>coun=
>try pilot would not occur, e.g. an LS4 is not a local soaring aircraft,
>for=
> a one hour float around the airfield a 1-26, Ka8 or similar glider is
>perf=
>ectly adequate. Some clubs in Europe refine this process by allocating
>airc=
>raft on a daily basis for cross country soaring. Not only is an aircraft
>al=
>located, also a weather briefing is conducted and a task set. Pilots who
>ar=
>e not allocated an aircraft become willing retrieve crew knowing they
will
>=
>have the benefit of the same when it is their turn to fly. Pilots who are
>a=
>llocated an aircraft have the incentive to attempt the task knowing help
>ha=
>s already been organized should they need a retrieve. Just like gaggle
>flyi=
>ng, groups can get better results even when conditions are not optimal.
>> >=20
>> > The Europeans who have contributed to this discussion have intimated
>th=
>e club culture in Europe encourages cross country regardless of age. Sean
>i=
>s convinced this is not the case this side of the pond, I concur. Not
>every=
> pilot is going to become a contest pilot, the same for juniors but many
>mo=
>re would if cross country flying was made available and promoted in a
>meani=
>ngful way. Low costs and the availability of aircraft go a long way to
>enab=
>ling more pilots to gain the time and skills cross country flying
>requires.=
> Convince the clubs that it is in their best interests to organize their
>ac=
>tivities to promote higher standards that lead to cross country flying
and
>=
>we might have a starting point for a revival.
>>=20
>> +100. It requires real work to create an XC culture in a club. There
>a=
>re plenty of clubs in the US with high-class fleets that never go more
>than=
> 10 miles from the home field. There are clubs with ratty (but capable)
>g=
>liders that rack up the OLC points and badges. While a well-organized
>appr=
>oach would be best, even seemingly tactical activities are better than
>noth=
>ing. =20
>>=20
>> Greg Delp just organized a very successful OLC weekend at a small club
>in=
> Connecticut. I'd venture a guess that there wasn't a large committee
>invo=
>lved. Just a couple of sparkplugs.=20
>>=20
>> If each SSA Director or State Governor simply made an effort to promote
>X=
>C and Junior XC in particular in his/her region, it would only take a
>rel=
>atively small number of "hits" to generate a reasonable population of
>junio=
>r XC pilots in the US. Once there are a few converts in a club or
>region,=
> there's a critical mass to hold a local junior get together with maybe
10
>=
>pilots. But, typing on RAS and bashing the "system" won't get it done.
=
>=20
>>=20
>> To steal a line from Nike: Just Do It. =20
>>=20
>> p3
>

[Frank Whiteley]

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 12:22:38 AM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > Good point. We need a balance for sure. Right now the balance is pretty full in the "not cross country" direction at most clubs. Not having gliders to fly because they are all out flying XC would really be a good problem to have initially...
>
>
> A little data (thanks to Frank Whiteley).
>
> There are 37 clubs in the US with at least 5 SSA youth members. The total number is 351. If you add the smaller club programs, juniors not on youth memberships or non-SSA members and juniors flying at commercial operations, maybe there are 400-500 juniors currently flying gliders in the US. If even a third of them are reasonably committed that is something we can work with.
>
> There is also the Collegiate Soaring Association, a 501(c)3 with an assortment of glider equipment. It's unclear to me the current level of activity within the CSA and I understand that there are issues with the bylaws of the CSA that restrict how the equipment can be used. Something to look into.
>
> I've been noodling on a few ideas for about a year now and have come to the conclusion that we really need to understand better where the bottleneck is: intake (seems not from the data), getting to solo, getting to first XC or getting to advanced XC/racing-ready? We also need to understand the state of the junior population and what the constraints are. The solution really needs to fit the problem - even then it would take energy, commitment and resources.
>
> I've also discovered with just a little digging that thoughtful and generous people have been working on these issues for quite some time, but results have been, well, uneven. Hip-shooting solutions will likely waste time and energy and have little impact. I'd suggest a hard look at where we stand and some directed creativity to see if we can't come up with new approaches and focused investment (of time and money) to make some progress.
>
> I'm willing to do some work on it, but for now I'm still counting leeches from the last r.a.s. racing discussion.
>
> Andy Blackburn
> 9B

Actually, there are a variety of SSA memberships aged 23 and under in the SSA. Current tally is 808 with e-mail addresses. "Juniors" are a slightly different grouping. There are some number of active youth in clubs and at commercial operations that aren't SSA members.

Frank Whiteley

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 7:45:07 AM UTC-6, Roger Hurley wrote:
> At 19:15 14 September 2015, Andy Gough wrote:
> >On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 2:45:41 AM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> >> On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 11:22:38 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn
> wrote:
> >>=20
> >> > I've been noodling on a few ideas for about a year now and have come
> >to=
> > the conclusion that we really need to understand better where the
> >bottlene=
> >ck is: intake (seems not from the data), getting to solo, getting to
> first
> >=
> >XC or getting to advanced XC/racing-ready? We also need to understand the
> >s=
> >tate of the junior population and what the constraints are. The solution
> >re=
> >ally needs to fit the problem - even then it would take energy,
> commitment
> >=
> >and resources.=20
> >> >=20
> >>=20
> >> In addition to the bottlenecks to progress there needs to be an
> >assessmen=
> >t of where we lose juniors in the process because it's pretty obvious
> that
> >=
> >not all of them are making it into full-fledged XC and racing pilots as
> >adu=
> >lts. Do the commitments of the last couple of years of high school get
> >them=
> >? College? Moving into the working world? It's not just development, but
> >re=
> >tention that need a hard, analytical look. Right now we have a good
> number
> >=
> >of opinions and anecdotes that can lead us where to look, but how much of
> >w=
> >hat effects prevail when and where probably needs to be assessed at more
> >th=
> >an a cursory level. I've heard heartfelt proposed solutions over the
> years
> >=
> >that I suspect a first-order look at the actual data would show to be
> >fruit=
> >less.
> >>=20
> >> Andy
> >
> >There is a long way to go before we can begin to emulate the European
> >glidi=
> >ng scene and as Alexander Schwagermakers pointed out you need to start
> >some=
> >where. I believe the start point is long before the provision of contest
> >ai=
> >rcraft for juniors to fly.
> >
> >Club's must be willing to promote cross country and just as important is
> >th=
> >e organization of club resources to attain the objective. The clever ones
> >w=
> >ould plan their fleets to provide aircraft for a variety of flying
> >opportun=
> >ities and promote standards that once attained would allow pilots to
> >advanc=
> >e to higher performance aircraft. The aircraft at the top of the scale
> >woul=
> >d be maintained expressly for cross country. The example citing the
> >inconve=
> >nience to a member who would have to forfeit his flight to a cross
> country
> >=
> >pilot would not occur, e.g. an LS4 is not a local soaring aircraft, for a
> >o=
> >ne hour float around the airfield a 1-26, Ka8 or similar glider is
> >perfectl=
> >y adequate. Some clubs in Europe refine this process by allocating
> >aircraft=
> > on a daily basis for cross country soaring. Not only is an aircraft
> >alloca=
> >ted, also a weather briefing is conducted and a task set. Pilots who are
> >no=
> >t allocated an aircraft become willing retrieve crew knowing they will
> >have=
> > the benefit of the same when it is their turn to fly. Pilots who are
> >alloc=
> >ated an aircraft have the incentive to attempt the task knowing help has
> >al=
> >ready been organized should they need a retrieve. Just like gaggle
> flying,
> >=
> >groups can get better results even when conditions are not optimal.
> >
> >The Europeans who have contributed to this discussion have intimated the
> >cl=
> >ub culture in Europe encourages cross country regardless of age. Sean is
> >co=
> >nvinced this is not the case this side of the pond, I concur. Not every
> >pil=
> >ot is going to become a contest pilot, the same for juniors but many more
> >w=
> >ould if cross country flying was made available and promoted in a
> >meaningfu=
> >l way. Low costs and the availability of aircraft go a long way to
> >enabling=
> > more pilots to gain the time and skills cross country flying requires.
> >Con=
> >vince the clubs that it is in their best interests to organize their
> >activi=
> >ties to promote higher standards that lead to cross country flying and we
> >m=
> >ight have a starting point for a revival.
>
>
> Interesting thread, and really a continuation of the "How do we
> inspire" topic that Sean began here
> http://ras.gliderpilot.net/?op=s2&id=282714&vt= and Andy Gough has it.
> I would guess not many joggers jog competitively- if they were told that to
> enjoy their recreation they had to race I suspect the majority response
> might be rude. Not many glider pilots race competitively - what is it
> 5%, maybe only 2%. Soaring, even cross-country soaring is, for most, not a
> race. I think those promoting soaring as a primarily competitive endeavour
> do it no favours.
>
> That's one thing. The other is the club thing. I've heard it said what
> clubs need is more people like them. Many have a choice of one and,
> depending on the club, Joe Public might think "Jeez no way I'm joining
> that". And some are clubmen, some just aren't. Long-time club
> membership declines should encourage us to conclude there simply are not
> enough "people like them" out there and to broaden the appeal stuff
> needs fixing (I know its not the same everywhere). If the clubs are the
> problem, the only alternative is that newcomers don't have to join them to
> go soaring. Another discussion.
>
> Showing newbies soaring and how its done as a "why we do it" and, at
> the right point cross-country soaring too, without having them believe its
> all about racing, could bring better results. The club culture thing is
> harder. It should be the case that folk join clubs because they want to
> not because they have to. Cross-country soaring should be an easy and
> achievable aspiration but not all will want to do it. Of those that do
> get the XC bug we cannot expect much more than the existing tiny minority
> to have the commitment, time and money to take it as far as racing.
> Therefore, to end up with more racing pilots means starting with a whole
> lot more cross-country "joggers", most of whom will quite reasonably
> only ever want to enjoy the jogging.
>
>
> >

The number of clubs and chapters and SSA members in them has be quite steady for several years. Churn is always happening. A few listed chapters are fiddling with the rules by not requiring all members to be SSA members. We are working to differentiate those. It's a work in progress, or not.

Frank Whiteley

[SF]

Sean,
Frank Whiteley is looking for a new chair for the youth committee. Call him and volunteer. The SSA's abilities are limited by the capabilities, and the productivity of the volunteers doing the work. Instead of saying that "they" need to do something, step up, and show us how it's done.

Ultimately, your success will depend on your ability to convince someone at each of the local clubs to take this on. Irritating them might not be the best motivational tactic since they should be considered team mates to work with not opponents to vanquish. More Patrick Lencioni, a lot less Sun Tzu.

SF

[[email protected]]

I can add my view as the Junior advisor for Harris Hill's program. Before I do that, I want to be clear that I'm speaking personally, not on behalf of the club. The opinions are my own.

We have 35 active Juniors, 26 in high school, the balance of them are in college, so are not usually here except during the summer. I was handed a thriving Junior program several years ago by Janell Sullivan, so can't tell you what it takes to start one. I can tell you what it takes to sustain one..

1. You must have a critical mass of Juniors in the program. One or two Juniors doesn't cut it. The kids like the seniors and value their experience with them, but let's face it, they prefer to hang out with their peers. You need several so they are all at the field together. Otherwise, they get tired of hearing the same stories over and over and drift away.

2. Plan for churn. Some kids (like adults) decide this isn't for them and move on. Some kids really like it but have too many activities and something has to give. There will be churn as that happens and you need a critical mass of kids to survive the inevitable dropouts or the whole thing grinds to a halt.

3. Kids like action. The understand that they need to help out with line duties and club stuff, but the real reason they joined was to fly. If they end up working more than flying, they stop showing up.

4. Parents have to help out. We take kids on at age 14, before they can drive. We all know that being at the field is the way they make progress and Mom and Dad have to shuttle them up there until they are old enough to drive.

5. Average lifespan of a Junior as a contributing club member is about 4 years -less if they come to us at 15 or 16. It's essential that you explain to them what the deal is up front because your club is making an investment of time and money in them. Thus, joining our program is not easy. First, I make both parent and Junior read an introductory document that lays out in detail the duties and program for the Juniors -and the parents. Then, I require them to meet me in person where I go over the exact same information. We tour the operation, and if we can do it, we take the prospective Junior for an introductory ride. AFTER all of that, I send them home and instruct them to discuss the commitment with each other and for the Junior to contact me if he/she wants an application. This 'no surprises' approach makes sure they know what they are in for and I think it makes our investment in their training more valuable.

6. We hold monthly meetings and I track their flight progress both to keep them focused on the prize and to see if they're getting flights. First instructional flight, 10 flights, flying tow, piloting landings, solo, checkout in the 1-26, 1-34, A, B, C badges, Silver C, private pilot. We celebrate flight achievements and encourage everyone to keep making progress.

7. The club is all about instructing the Juniors. I can't emphasize this enough. If your club is only lukewarm about it, then forget trying to spark an interest in a Junior program. We subsidize flying for the Juniors, making it very low cost. Period. People may say one thing but they vote with their wallets. If your club isn't willing to incur time and expense for a Junior program, then they aren't actually interested in one.

8. Juniors rarely fly except when school is out. We are fortunate enough to be able to host daily summer operations. The kids wait until they are clear of school (end of June around here) and fly daily through August until summer ops ends. We often employ collegiate Juniors as CFI's, comm pilots (to fund the daily ops) and tow pilots. This works for about the first two years of college when they need flying jobs but can't get them yet. The kids really respond to flying with and being taught by Juniors who are just a bit older than they are. When school begins, they have fall activities and when it is ending, they are trying to get their final exams and projects finished. They just don't always have time to get out to the field.

9. We try to match resources to requirements. We understand that it is much more expensive in terms of resources and effort to attract and partially train a member that abandons their training than to ensure the existing student pilots get to their certificate. Since Junior training has to fit in there somewhere and competes for instructor time, we limit the number of Juniors to a number we can both afford and train. That keeps both senior students and Juniors happier in terms of being able to access instructors.

10. Mentorship. I realize we are very fortunate to have both experience and equipment on the field. Because the club is on board with Junior membership, many of our members will take Juniors on local or cross country flights 'just because'. One of the things they learn from this is that you don't have to stay local, you can stretch out and go somewhere. And, I'll just point out that the average teen kid is absolutely clueless about how to get from student to cross country pilot. They absolutely need someone to show them how to get there and impose a little structure.

11. Even a little upgrade is exciting to a student pilot. I see a lot of people disparaging 2-33's but they're cheap, they do a great job of training, and they fly sufficiently like a 1-26 that our kids are genuinely excited about getting checked out in, and flying the 1-26. They love it. And, after a fashion, they move up to the 1-34 and LOVE it. Can you imagine LOVING and being EXCITED about flying a 1-34? I can, because I see it all the time. The 1-34 opens up the possibility of stretching out to get that cloud just a little further away and it is a great 50k cross country machine. The kids usually get their 5 hour flight in the 1-34 (or 1-26) and compete for it on any given summer day.

12. They're not DIYers like many of us are. I've found our senior members to be independent, take charge folks. Teens are not like that. They don't fix up cars (I'm generalizing here, but you get the picture), know how to change a tire, or know how to build a deck. Nor are they particularly interested in how to do that. It's obviously generational, but they just aren't into it very much. That's a little bit at odds with what I know about soaring culture, but having said that - they're usually game for almost anything. They don't care if you camp out, forgot the tent and only brought candy bars for dinner. They're adaptable and that's awesome. They could also care less about club politics, which they view as a bunch of adults bickering over stupid stuff while we could all be flying. Refreshing.

13. Junior flying is competing with other leisure activities and almost all of them are WAY easier to do. Both Juniors and parents have to feel like they are getting something of value from membership. You may think that kids ought to be grateful to fly your aircraft and you're right, but that's just not how they are going to view it until later, when they've gone of on their adult adventures. I try to structure our meetings with a theme each month so they are worth attending (providing pizza helps) and remind the kids that of the 600,000 pilots in the U.S., they only hand out about 150 student licenses to 14-15 year olds each year. That gets their attention because it underscores how few kids get the opportunity they do. I also have a blog for the parents that they can get to in our member section so they can find out what is going on in the program.

14. See number 7, again. It takes a lot of EFFORT to do this but the payoff is watching awkward, clueless 14 year olds turn into responsible, mature adults in front of your eyes. Whether they go on to a career in aviation is immaterial - they carry the gift of flight with them for life. You all know what I mean.

Whew. That's a lot and I apologize for the length of this post. I'll end by saying that even with our amazing resources, we don't do a great job of shepherding the kids to fly XC. You have to remember, they have almost no clue about badges, flight recorders, paperwork, or pre-planning. You have to bring them along to this when they are ready. For my part, I'm going to be more organized and focused at our monthly meetings by explaining the badge levels through Silver C and helping them understand how they can achieve those levels. It's all about opening their eyes to the possibilities.

One last note - when we were starting to get down a bit in our Junior membership, all I had to do was ask the kids if they'd tried to get any of their friends involved in soaring. Within a month, we had several new ones and have added them steadily all year long. Kids are still interested in flying.

That's my two cents.

[Glider RN]

The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) is facing similar challenges to SSA with an aging membership and a need to attract youth. They offer free youth memberships up to age 19 and recruit at EAA Young Eagle events. The following release indicates they have 50,000 youth members.

http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/mediaroom/2015/09/14/ama-youth-membership-reaches-50000/

It would appear that there is an opportunity to transition these kids to flying gliders rather than waiting a couple of years more to solo in airplanes. Why not models -> gliders -> airplanes instead of models -> airplanes. Not all will move from models, but there are some big numbers when a small percentage do.

[Sean Fidler]

Great post. Very well thought out. Highly valuable guidelines. I think it's amazing work that you are all doing there. I commend you for your time and energy. That said, I think the program is falling slightly short of its full potential. Not for a lack of effort, but maybe for a slight lack of vision.

I'll go back to my earlier quote..."train how you fight, fight how you train."

Your solid junior primary instruction program is geared, as most clubs with any measurable junior flight training activity likely are, towards getting them "the certificate." Once they have checked that box, they have little else to shoot for or get excited about. It's the finish line. XC is not organized into or "built into" the experience of learning to fly sailplanes.. Its not part of the plan. It's not the objective. It's not the next level in the growth and progression. It's not on the menu. It's not built into the culture. The kids all get their license. This works great (train who you fight), but very few go beyond that level (fight how you train).

My contention remains that if the common goal was (generally) for the "U.S. junior" to learn to soar (real XC skills), these kids would go much farther and get much more excited about it along the way. They might say something like "I want to make the Jr nationals" or "fly the adult contest" for example. In a short period of time, they would almost certainly surprise us as much as we are surprised by the British, French, German, or Australian youth today. American juniors are more than capable of learning to fly XC. XC would, very likely, make their entire experience more fun and more rewarding for them. It would create a gravity that would attract more and more..

To put it another way...If we were able to broadly shift the youth focus in the U.S. past primary training to XC, it might just have exponential effects that could truly change the face of US Soaring for the better.

Getting juniors their "pattern license" is just phase one. Our collective goal could be getting them ready to earn their SSA silver badge and getting them prepared to compete in the U.S. Jr. Nationals (or region 6 junior regionals, whatever)! New junior pilots could crew for the older kids (or simply attend, camp, hang out, learn, etc), older kids in the program would be better instructors and mentors, and so on. Imagine the chemistry these kids would have within their ranks. Imagine how much the new kids would look up to the older kids who were already soaring XC! We are simply aiming too low for them. We are missing the ball. In fact, we aren't even bothering to swing!

80% of the path to correcting this problem is simply beginning to try.

We should probably all be a little upset with ourselves (collectively) for not identifying this problem sooner (assuming we are now). The time has come to take advantage of what XC soaring can teach our juniors and do for our sport domestically. The time has come to change almost everything we are doing with youth soaring. The same goes for commercial operations.

Put another way, what will US soaring (the SSA) look like in 15 years if we keep on doing exactly what we do today (youth soaring development)? What would it look like if we developed hundreds of young cross country pilots in that same period? Debate that all you want but the latter sure sounds like more fun for everyone involved.

How many youth cross country pilots will your club generate in the next 1, 3 or 5 years? Will we begin to host Jr events, camps and contests to give them their own "thing?" East coast Jr Nationals? Weat coast Jr Nationals? Will we take it to the next level (XC) as other successful countries have in terms of youth development?

We actually have a tremendous opportunity in front of us. Nothing is more important or, I imagine, more rewarding than junior cross country pilots. The biggest prize at the SSA convention next year should be the club team that developed the most net new Junior glider pilots who earned solo silver badges. This prize should require a forklift to transport. And all the Jrs who achieve silver badges should be recognized on a page in the SSA magazine that is made of real gold leaf, with articles about the flight, photos, etc.

Sean

[Justin Craig[_3_]]

It seems that there is three issues here:

1) Lack of motivation in some clubs to support X/C flying.
2) Juniors access to X/C gliders
3) Geographical constraints making it financially prohibitive for juniors
to fly comps.

I'm not sure about #1 but here is a thought for #2 & 3.

Why not hold a junior national competition to run directly after a seniors
contest.

Encourage some of the senior pilots who have a lack of time, but fluid
funds and a glider to get a junior to crew for them at the seniors contest.


The junior would be expected to haul the glider across the country behind
the seniors car, allowing the senior to get a commercial flight and arrive
at the contest in comfort.

Junior crews for senior and then borrows the glider for their contest
directly afterward and then tows it back to the home club.

I see insurance share arrangements working really well in the UK all the
time.
With a bit of thought it can work well for both parties.

It can be a purely financial arrangement with the junior contributing
toward the running costs or it can be that the junior crews for senior and
does all the looking after of the kit; polishing, cleaning trailer, taking
glider to the inspector of the annual, etc.

I have seen some strong friendships forged, some old guys reminded how to
be young and some young guys developing a scene of responsibility.

What goes around comes around. As the junior gets decent employment they
can give back to the next group. That's what has happened at my club for 20
+ years.

Just a thought....

[ND]

On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 7:45:39 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I can add my view as the Junior advisor for Harris Hill's program. Before I do that, I want to be clear that I'm speaking personally, not on behalf of the club. The opinions are my own.
>
> We have 35 active Juniors, 26 in high school, the balance of them are in college, so are not usually here except during the summer. I was handed a thriving Junior program several years ago by Janell Sullivan, so can't tell you what it takes to start one. I can tell you what it takes to sustain one.
>
> 1. You must have a critical mass of Juniors in the program. One or two Juniors doesn't cut it. The kids like the seniors and value their experience with them, but let's face it, they prefer to hang out with their peers. You need several so they are all at the field together. Otherwise, they get tired of hearing the same stories over and over and drift away.
>
> 2. Plan for churn. Some kids (like adults) decide this isn't for them and move on. Some kids really like it but have too many activities and something has to give. There will be churn as that happens and you need a critical mass of kids to survive the inevitable dropouts or the whole thing grinds to a halt.
>
> 3. Kids like action. The understand that they need to help out with line duties and club stuff, but the real reason they joined was to fly. If they end up working more than flying, they stop showing up.
>
> 4. Parents have to help out. We take kids on at age 14, before they can drive. We all know that being at the field is the way they make progress and Mom and Dad have to shuttle them up there until they are old enough to drive.
>
> 5. Average lifespan of a Junior as a contributing club member is about 4 years -less if they come to us at 15 or 16. It's essential that you explain to them what the deal is up front because your club is making an investment of time and money in them. Thus, joining our program is not easy. First, I make both parent and Junior read an introductory document that lays out in detail the duties and program for the Juniors -and the parents. Then, I require them to meet me in person where I go over the exact same information. We tour the operation, and if we can do it, we take the prospective Junior for an introductory ride. AFTER all of that, I send them home and instruct them to discuss the commitment with each other and for the Junior to contact me if he/she wants an application. This 'no surprises' approach makes sure they know what they are in for and I think it makes our investment in their training more valuable.
>
> 6. We hold monthly meetings and I track their flight progress both to keep them focused on the prize and to see if they're getting flights. First instructional flight, 10 flights, flying tow, piloting landings, solo, checkout in the 1-26, 1-34, A, B, C badges, Silver C, private pilot. We celebrate flight achievements and encourage everyone to keep making progress.
>
> 7. The club is all about instructing the Juniors. I can't emphasize this enough. If your club is only lukewarm about it, then forget trying to spark an interest in a Junior program. We subsidize flying for the Juniors, making it very low cost. Period. People may say one thing but they vote with their wallets. If your club isn't willing to incur time and expense for a Junior program, then they aren't actually interested in one.
>
> 8. Juniors rarely fly except when school is out. We are fortunate enough to be able to host daily summer operations. The kids wait until they are clear of school (end of June around here) and fly daily through August until summer ops ends. We often employ collegiate Juniors as CFI's, comm pilots (to fund the daily ops) and tow pilots. This works for about the first two years of college when they need flying jobs but can't get them yet. The kids really respond to flying with and being taught by Juniors who are just a bit older than they are. When school begins, they have fall activities and when it is ending, they are trying to get their final exams and projects finished. They just don't always have time to get out to the field.
>
> 9. We try to match resources to requirements. We understand that it is much more expensive in terms of resources and effort to attract and partially train a member that abandons their training than to ensure the existing student pilots get to their certificate. Since Junior training has to fit in there somewhere and competes for instructor time, we limit the number of Juniors to a number we can both afford and train. That keeps both senior students and Juniors happier in terms of being able to access instructors..
>
> 10. Mentorship. I realize we are very fortunate to have both experience and equipment on the field. Because the club is on board with Junior membership, many of our members will take Juniors on local or cross country flights 'just because'. One of the things they learn from this is that you don't have to stay local, you can stretch out and go somewhere. And, I'll just point out that the average teen kid is absolutely clueless about how to get from student to cross country pilot. They absolutely need someone to show them how to get there and impose a little structure.
>
> 11. Even a little upgrade is exciting to a student pilot. I see a lot of people disparaging 2-33's but they're cheap, they do a great job of training, and they fly sufficiently like a 1-26 that our kids are genuinely excited about getting checked out in, and flying the 1-26. They love it. And, after a fashion, they move up to the 1-34 and LOVE it. Can you imagine LOVING and being EXCITED about flying a 1-34? I can, because I see it all the time. The 1-34 opens up the possibility of stretching out to get that cloud just a little further away and it is a great 50k cross country machine. The kids usually get their 5 hour flight in the 1-34 (or 1-26) and compete for it on any given summer day.
>
> 12. They're not DIYers like many of us are. I've found our senior members to be independent, take charge folks. Teens are not like that. They don't fix up cars (I'm generalizing here, but you get the picture), know how to change a tire, or know how to build a deck. Nor are they particularly interested in how to do that. It's obviously generational, but they just aren't into it very much. That's a little bit at odds with what I know about soaring culture, but having said that - they're usually game for almost anything. They don't care if you camp out, forgot the tent and only brought candy bars for dinner. They're adaptable and that's awesome. They could also care less about club politics, which they view as a bunch of adults bickering over stupid stuff while we could all be flying. Refreshing.
>
> 13. Junior flying is competing with other leisure activities and almost all of them are WAY easier to do. Both Juniors and parents have to feel like they are getting something of value from membership. You may think that kids ought to be grateful to fly your aircraft and you're right, but that's just not how they are going to view it until later, when they've gone of on their adult adventures. I try to structure our meetings with a theme each month so they are worth attending (providing pizza helps) and remind the kids that of the 600,000 pilots in the U.S., they only hand out about 150 student licenses to 14-15 year olds each year. That gets their attention because it underscores how few kids get the opportunity they do. I also have a blog for the parents that they can get to in our member section so they can find out what is going on in the program.
>
> 14. See number 7, again. It takes a lot of EFFORT to do this but the payoff is watching awkward, clueless 14 year olds turn into responsible, mature adults in front of your eyes. Whether they go on to a career in aviation is immaterial - they carry the gift of flight with them for life. You all know what I mean.
>
> Whew. That's a lot and I apologize for the length of this post. I'll end by saying that even with our amazing resources, we don't do a great job of shepherding the kids to fly XC. You have to remember, they have almost no clue about badges, flight recorders, paperwork, or pre-planning. You have to bring them along to this when they are ready. For my part, I'm going to be more organized and focused at our monthly meetings by explaining the badge levels through Silver C and helping them understand how they can achieve those levels. It's all about opening their eyes to the possibilities.
>
> One last note - when we were starting to get down a bit in our Junior membership, all I had to do was ask the kids if they'd tried to get any of their friends involved in soaring. Within a month, we had several new ones and have added them steadily all year long. Kids are still interested in flying.
>
> That's my two cents.

#4 i rode a 1 speed bike everyday uphill both ways ;) and sometimes a passing senior picked me up and took me the rest of the way.

[ND]

On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 11:56:55 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Great post. Very well thought out. Highly valuable guidelines. I think it's amazing work that you are all doing there. I commend you for your time and energy. That said, I think the program is falling slightly short of its full potential. Not for a lack of effort, but maybe for a slight lack of vision.
>
> I'll go back to my earlier quote..."train how you fight, fight how you train."
>
> Your solid junior primary instruction program is geared, as most clubs with any measurable junior flight training activity likely are, towards getting them "the certificate." Once they have checked that box, they have little else to shoot for or get excited about. It's the finish line. XC is not organized into or "built into" the experience of learning to fly sailplanes. Its not part of the plan. It's not the objective. It's not the next level in the growth and progression. It's not on the menu. It's not built into the culture. The kids all get their license. This works great (train who you fight), but very few go beyond that level (fight how you train).
>
> My contention remains that if the common goal was (generally) for the "U.S. junior" to learn to soar (real XC skills), these kids would go much farther and get much more excited about it along the way. They might say something like "I want to make the Jr nationals" or "fly the adult contest" for example. In a short period of time, they would almost certainly surprise us as much as we are surprised by the British, French, German, or Australian youth today. American juniors are more than capable of learning to fly XC.. XC would, very likely, make their entire experience more fun and more rewarding for them. It would create a gravity that would attract more and more.
>
> To put it another way...If we were able to broadly shift the youth focus in the U.S. past primary training to XC, it might just have exponential effects that could truly change the face of US Soaring for the better.
>
> Getting juniors their "pattern license" is just phase one. Our collective goal could be getting them ready to earn their SSA silver badge and getting them prepared to compete in the U.S. Jr. Nationals (or region 6 junior regionals, whatever)! New junior pilots could crew for the older kids (or simply attend, camp, hang out, learn, etc), older kids in the program would be better instructors and mentors, and so on. Imagine the chemistry these kids would have within their ranks. Imagine how much the new kids would look up to the older kids who were already soaring XC! We are simply aiming too low for them. We are missing the ball. In fact, we aren't even bothering to swing!
>
> 80% of the path to correcting this problem is simply beginning to try.
>
> We should probably all be a little upset with ourselves (collectively) for not identifying this problem sooner (assuming we are now). The time has come to take advantage of what XC soaring can teach our juniors and do for our sport domestically. The time has come to change almost everything we are doing with youth soaring. The same goes for commercial operations.
>
> Put another way, what will US soaring (the SSA) look like in 15 years if we keep on doing exactly what we do today (youth soaring development)? What would it look like if we developed hundreds of young cross country pilots in that same period? Debate that all you want but the latter sure sounds like more fun for everyone involved.
>
> How many youth cross country pilots will your club generate in the next 1, 3 or 5 years? Will we begin to host Jr events, camps and contests to give them their own "thing?" East coast Jr Nationals? Weat coast Jr Nationals? Will we take it to the next level (XC) as other successful countries have in terms of youth development?
>
> We actually have a tremendous opportunity in front of us. Nothing is more important or, I imagine, more rewarding than junior cross country pilots. The biggest prize at the SSA convention next year should be the club team that developed the most net new Junior glider pilots who earned solo silver badges. This prize should require a forklift to transport. And all the Jrs who achieve silver badges should be recognized on a page in the SSA magazine that is made of real gold leaf, with articles about the flight, photos, etc.
>
> Sean

i have to disagree with you about HHSC's junior program falling short man. i've got to defend us just a little bit, and expound on tom berry's comments. (whose doing a GREAT job for us)

*i am a result of the junior program
*so was corey sullivan (JR worlds participant, and past entrant in a dozen us contest as a junior)
*so was jason howard (Previous JR contest pilot & ventus B owner in his 20s)
and liz schwenkler (First woman to win US open class nationals, and did so in her 20's.
and noah reitter (you don't know his name yet, BUT YOU WILL) flew two contests this year as guest, tentatively flying 2 next year as a full entrant.
just a few recent examples

but over the past 20 years, we've had one at least one young'n flying at the competition level at any one time. imagine if twenty other clubs posted the exact same numbers! i have to commend hank for his efforts too. he's contributed a lot just down the road.

here's our achievement list for the summer for our Junior membership: Solo(2 new), 2 Hr Flight (1), 5 hr Flight (2), Silver Badge (2), Gold Distance & Diamond Goal (1), Commercial Pilot (1), CFI (1), One day second place Sport Class National flying as a guest (1)

i know there's a lot of 1's and 2's in the list above but if half of the US clubs were posting the numbers above (many are, but not half) then us junior soaring would be in much better shape. My point is, we're doing well, our at least not doing nothing.

i recognize that there is also always room for improvement, and our efforts ARE continually improving.

Also our eye IS on the "prize". cross country is in our culture at harris hill. juniors help with retrieves. juniors go cross country (showing other juniors that they can too). juniors own half of a discus CS and are routinely taken cross country by senior members in a duo. i make it a point to try and take a few kids on flights away from the hill each year.

one thing i think we can improve on as a club is this:
we had saturday's set up as tentative cross country instruction days in our duo discus. it seems like we've gotten away from that this summer, but the first year we tried it, people were taking instruction from tim welles and a few others almost every weekend.

this coming season as my personal contribution to this whole thing, i'll commit to flying cross country with juniors more, and taking a few under my wing to try and groom them for their first 50k and beyond.

[Sean Fidler]

Those are the things that we need to hear! Silver badge on up! Fantastic! I am impressed. Keep it going!!! What are these kids names? Where are the articles (in the gold leaf section of the magazine :-))? I see nothing about this on Facebook (US Junior page).

Clearly, Harris Hill is doing a great job. But, Harris Hill is far behind the UK for example. It's not Harris Hill that I am worried about at this point! It's the many, many U.S. soaring clubs that actually discourage XC and do not have the tools to promote or teach it (to adults or juniors).

I have no "real" dog in this fight. I'm simply trying to argue a for a grander vision. I do not have kids, yet. I am not a soaring club member.

I am thinking seriously of founding a XC school in Ionia for adults and Jrs to graduate into once their license is complete. But one small XC school isn't going to make a difference nationally. We need our clubs to stop actively discouraging cross country soaring! This is a massive disservice to our sport.

We still need to define the problem the USA faces. We need to get real data on what each soaring clubs program (comm ops too) is supporting (pattern, XC, juniors, etc) and who, what, when, where, why. If I were in an SSA leadership role, this would be the first task.

Sean

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Wednesday, September 16, 2015 at 9:21:38 AM UTC-4, ND wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 11:56:55 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > Great post. Very well thought out. Highly valuable guidelines. I think it's amazing work that you are all doing there. I commend you for your time and energy. That said, I think the program is falling slightly short of its full potential. Not for a lack of effort, but maybe for a slight lack of vision.
> >
> > I'll go back to my earlier quote..."train how you fight, fight how you train."
> >
> > Your solid junior primary instruction program is geared, as most clubs with any measurable junior flight training activity likely are, towards getting them "the certificate." Once they have checked that box, they have little else to shoot for or get excited about. It's the finish line. XC is not organized into or "built into" the experience of learning to fly sailplanes. Its not part of the plan. It's not the objective. It's not the next level in the growth and progression. It's not on the menu. It's not built into the culture. The kids all get their license. This works great (train who you fight), but very few go beyond that level (fight how you train)..
> >
> > My contention remains that if the common goal was (generally) for the "U.S. junior" to learn to soar (real XC skills), these kids would go much farther and get much more excited about it along the way. They might say something like "I want to make the Jr nationals" or "fly the adult contest" for example. In a short period of time, they would almost certainly surprise us as much as we are surprised by the British, French, German, or Australian youth today. American juniors are more than capable of learning to fly XC. XC would, very likely, make their entire experience more fun and more rewarding for them. It would create a gravity that would attract more and more.
> >
> > To put it another way...If we were able to broadly shift the youth focus in the U.S. past primary training to XC, it might just have exponential effects that could truly change the face of US Soaring for the better.
> >
> > Getting juniors their "pattern license" is just phase one. Our collective goal could be getting them ready to earn their SSA silver badge and getting them prepared to compete in the U.S. Jr. Nationals (or region 6 junior regionals, whatever)! New junior pilots could crew for the older kids (or simply attend, camp, hang out, learn, etc), older kids in the program would be better instructors and mentors, and so on. Imagine the chemistry these kids would have within their ranks. Imagine how much the new kids would look up to the older kids who were already soaring XC! We are simply aiming too low for them. We are missing the ball. In fact, we aren't even bothering to swing!
> >
> > 80% of the path to correcting this problem is simply beginning to try.
> >
> > We should probably all be a little upset with ourselves (collectively) for not identifying this problem sooner (assuming we are now). The time has come to take advantage of what XC soaring can teach our juniors and do for our sport domestically. The time has come to change almost everything we are doing with youth soaring. The same goes for commercial operations.
> >
> > Put another way, what will US soaring (the SSA) look like in 15 years if we keep on doing exactly what we do today (youth soaring development)? What would it look like if we developed hundreds of young cross country pilots in that same period? Debate that all you want but the latter sure sounds like more fun for everyone involved.
> >
> > How many youth cross country pilots will your club generate in the next 1, 3 or 5 years? Will we begin to host Jr events, camps and contests to give them their own "thing?" East coast Jr Nationals? Weat coast Jr Nationals? Will we take it to the next level (XC) as other successful countries have in terms of youth development?
> >
> > We actually have a tremendous opportunity in front of us. Nothing is more important or, I imagine, more rewarding than junior cross country pilots. The biggest prize at the SSA convention next year should be the club team that developed the most net new Junior glider pilots who earned solo silver badges. This prize should require a forklift to transport. And all the Jrs who achieve silver badges should be recognized on a page in the SSA magazine that is made of real gold leaf, with articles about the flight, photos, etc.
> >
> > Sean
>
> i have to disagree with you about HHSC's junior program falling short man.. i've got to defend us just a little bit, and expound on tom berry's comments. (whose doing a GREAT job for us)
>
> *i am a result of the junior program
> *so was corey sullivan (JR worlds participant, and past entrant in a dozen us contest as a junior)
> *so was jason howard (Previous JR contest pilot & ventus B owner in his 20s)
> and liz schwenkler (First woman to win US open class nationals, and did so in her 20's.
> and noah reitter (you don't know his name yet, BUT YOU WILL) flew two contests this year as guest, tentatively flying 2 next year as a full entrant.
> just a few recent examples
>
> but over the past 20 years, we've had one at least one young'n flying at the competition level at any one time. imagine if twenty other clubs posted the exact same numbers! i have to commend hank for his efforts too. he's contributed a lot just down the road.
>
> here's our achievement list for the summer for our Junior membership: Solo(2 new), 2 Hr Flight (1), 5 hr Flight (2), Silver Badge (2), Gold Distance & Diamond Goal (1), Commercial Pilot (1), CFI (1), One day second place Sport Class National flying as a guest (1)
>
> i know there's a lot of 1's and 2's in the list above but if half of the US clubs were posting the numbers above (many are, but not half) then us junior soaring would be in much better shape. My point is, we're doing well, our at least not doing nothing.
>
> i recognize that there is also always room for improvement, and our efforts ARE continually improving.
>
> Also our eye IS on the "prize". cross country is in our culture at harris hill. juniors help with retrieves. juniors go cross country (showing other juniors that they can too). juniors own half of a discus CS and are routinely taken cross country by senior members in a duo. i make it a point to try and take a few kids on flights away from the hill each year.
>
> one thing i think we can improve on as a club is this:
> we had saturday's set up as tentative cross country instruction days in our duo discus. it seems like we've gotten away from that this summer, but the first year we tried it, people were taking instruction from tim welles and a few others almost every weekend.
>
> this coming season as my personal contribution to this whole thing, i'll commit to flying cross country with juniors more, and taking a few under my wing to try and groom them for their first 50k and beyond.

You also forgot Monty & Heinz (of M&H soaring), the McMasters (3, count-em 3 generations!!!) as HHSC junior members along with lots of others.

Way back when, I was "sorta a HHSC member" (flew there a number of times a year, same basic age as M&H).

SF, I agree with you to a point, something better needs to be done, but, there ARE groups that have & are doing something RIGHT NOW.
More places would be better. Agreed.

I will also agree that some sites (club or commercial) are very "anti XC", whether it's a fear by the "site rulers", insurance issues, etc.

I think training to "go away from the airport" helps the sport in general, and more support so people (any age) have something better to go XC in.

I know our group, as well as HHSC, Dansville NY & others, promote learning more than "tow up, slide down".
They also promote XC as well.
Their junior programs also tend to make free/cheap to use sailplanes available to juniors.

As to "tagging along to help a senior" at a contest, lots in my generation (and later generations as well) started by crewing/working at contests.
Granted, there was not a "junior contest" the next week to fly in, could be worth a thought on that.

As to getting more "juniors in the door", our group has worked with a fairly local STEM class to bring kids out to the airport on a school day.
Read up on it in a recent soaring. Maybe more sites could work with similar classes local to them and do the same thing. ;-)

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 11:56:55 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Great post. Very well thought out. Highly valuable guidelines. I think it's amazing work that you are all doing there. I commend you for your time and energy. That said, I think the program is falling slightly short of its full potential. Not for a lack of effort, but maybe for a slight lack of vision.
>
> I'll go back to my earlier quote..."train how you fight, fight how you train."
>
> Your solid junior primary instruction program is geared, as most clubs with any measurable junior flight training activity likely are, towards getting them "the certificate." Once they have checked that box, they have little else to shoot for or get excited about. It's the finish line. XC is not organized into or "built into" the experience of learning to fly sailplanes. Its not part of the plan. It's not the objective. It's not the next level in the growth and progression. It's not on the menu. It's not built into the culture. The kids all get their license. This works great (train who you fight), but very few go beyond that level (fight how you train).
>
> My contention remains that if the common goal was (generally) for the "U.S. junior" to learn to soar (real XC skills), these kids would go much farther and get much more excited about it along the way. They might say something like "I want to make the Jr nationals" or "fly the adult contest" for example. In a short period of time, they would almost certainly surprise us as much as we are surprised by the British, French, German, or Australian youth today. American juniors are more than capable of learning to fly XC.. XC would, very likely, make their entire experience more fun and more rewarding for them. It would create a gravity that would attract more and more.
>
> To put it another way...If we were able to broadly shift the youth focus in the U.S. past primary training to XC, it might just have exponential effects that could truly change the face of US Soaring for the better.
>
> Getting juniors their "pattern license" is just phase one. Our collective goal could be getting them ready to earn their SSA silver badge and getting them prepared to compete in the U.S. Jr. Nationals (or region 6 junior regionals, whatever)! New junior pilots could crew for the older kids (or simply attend, camp, hang out, learn, etc), older kids in the program would be better instructors and mentors, and so on. Imagine the chemistry these kids would have within their ranks. Imagine how much the new kids would look up to the older kids who were already soaring XC! We are simply aiming too low for them. We are missing the ball. In fact, we aren't even bothering to swing!
>
> 80% of the path to correcting this problem is simply beginning to try.
>
> We should probably all be a little upset with ourselves (collectively) for not identifying this problem sooner (assuming we are now). The time has come to take advantage of what XC soaring can teach our juniors and do for our sport domestically. The time has come to change almost everything we are doing with youth soaring. The same goes for commercial operations.
>
> Put another way, what will US soaring (the SSA) look like in 15 years if we keep on doing exactly what we do today (youth soaring development)? What would it look like if we developed hundreds of young cross country pilots in that same period? Debate that all you want but the latter sure sounds like more fun for everyone involved.
>
> How many youth cross country pilots will your club generate in the next 1, 3 or 5 years? Will we begin to host Jr events, camps and contests to give them their own "thing?" East coast Jr Nationals? Weat coast Jr Nationals? Will we take it to the next level (XC) as other successful countries have in terms of youth development?
>
> We actually have a tremendous opportunity in front of us. Nothing is more important or, I imagine, more rewarding than junior cross country pilots. The biggest prize at the SSA convention next year should be the club team that developed the most net new Junior glider pilots who earned solo silver badges. This prize should require a forklift to transport. And all the Jrs who achieve silver badges should be recognized on a page in the SSA magazine that is made of real gold leaf, with articles about the flight, photos, etc.
>
> Sean

Sean:
I think it is time for you to put up or shut up.
Rather than make this comment a negative, I propose the following:
YOU volunteer to chair a round table discussion on the topic of advancing young pilots beyond basic training(what you call "pattern license" at the Greenville convention.
As the person I hope to hear is the new SSA youth chair, I think this could be a useful and valuable contribution.
I'll agree to be one of the people at the front table to contribute. I'd hope to get someone from HHSC, maybe CCSC, SCOH, or other clubs to also participate.
Time to stop being an idea guy and start being a worker bee.
Well?
UH

[Sean Fidler]

That might be a good idea. I think we should do this.

On Wednesday, September 16, 2015 at 11:45:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 11:56:55 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > Great post. Very well thought out. Highly valuable guidelines. I think it's amazing work that you are all doing there. I commend you for your time and energy. That said, I think the program is falling slightly short of its full potential. Not for a lack of effort, but maybe for a slight lack of vision.
> >
> > I'll go back to my earlier quote..."train how you fight, fight how you train."
> >
> > Your solid junior primary instruction program is geared, as most clubs with any measurable junior flight training activity likely are, towards getting them "the certificate." Once they have checked that box, they have little else to shoot for or get excited about. It's the finish line. XC is not organized into or "built into" the experience of learning to fly sailplanes. Its not part of the plan. It's not the objective. It's not the next level in the growth and progression. It's not on the menu. It's not built into the culture. The kids all get their license. This works great (train who you fight), but very few go beyond that level (fight how you train)..
> >
> > My contention remains that if the common goal was (generally) for the "U.S. junior" to learn to soar (real XC skills), these kids would go much farther and get much more excited about it along the way. They might say something like "I want to make the Jr nationals" or "fly the adult contest" for example. In a short period of time, they would almost certainly surprise us as much as we are surprised by the British, French, German, or Australian youth today. American juniors are more than capable of learning to fly XC. XC would, very likely, make their entire experience more fun and more rewarding for them. It would create a gravity that would attract more and more.
> >
> > To put it another way...If we were able to broadly shift the youth focus in the U.S. past primary training to XC, it might just have exponential effects that could truly change the face of US Soaring for the better.
> >
> > Getting juniors their "pattern license" is just phase one. Our collective goal could be getting them ready to earn their SSA silver badge and getting them prepared to compete in the U.S. Jr. Nationals (or region 6 junior regionals, whatever)! New junior pilots could crew for the older kids (or simply attend, camp, hang out, learn, etc), older kids in the program would be better instructors and mentors, and so on. Imagine the chemistry these kids would have within their ranks. Imagine how much the new kids would look up to the older kids who were already soaring XC! We are simply aiming too low for them. We are missing the ball. In fact, we aren't even bothering to swing!
> >
> > 80% of the path to correcting this problem is simply beginning to try.
> >
> > We should probably all be a little upset with ourselves (collectively) for not identifying this problem sooner (assuming we are now). The time has come to take advantage of what XC soaring can teach our juniors and do for our sport domestically. The time has come to change almost everything we are doing with youth soaring. The same goes for commercial operations.
> >
> > Put another way, what will US soaring (the SSA) look like in 15 years if we keep on doing exactly what we do today (youth soaring development)? What would it look like if we developed hundreds of young cross country pilots in that same period? Debate that all you want but the latter sure sounds like more fun for everyone involved.
> >
> > How many youth cross country pilots will your club generate in the next 1, 3 or 5 years? Will we begin to host Jr events, camps and contests to give them their own "thing?" East coast Jr Nationals? Weat coast Jr Nationals? Will we take it to the next level (XC) as other successful countries have in terms of youth development?
> >
> > We actually have a tremendous opportunity in front of us. Nothing is more important or, I imagine, more rewarding than junior cross country pilots. The biggest prize at the SSA convention next year should be the club team that developed the most net new Junior glider pilots who earned solo silver badges. This prize should require a forklift to transport. And all the Jrs who achieve silver badges should be recognized on a page in the SSA magazine that is made of real gold leaf, with articles about the flight, photos, etc.
> >
> > Sean
>
> Sean:
> I think it is time for you to put up or shut up.
> Rather than make this comment a negative, I propose the following:
> YOU volunteer to chair a round table discussion on the topic of advancing young pilots beyond basic training(what you call "pattern license" at the Greenville convention.
> As the person I hope to hear is the new SSA youth chair, I think this could be a useful and valuable contribution.
> I'll agree to be one of the people at the front table to contribute. I'd hope to get someone from HHSC, maybe CCSC, SCOH, or other clubs to also participate.
> Time to stop being an idea guy and start being a worker bee.
> Well?
> UH

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Wednesday, September 16, 2015 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
>
> I am thinking seriously of founding a XC school in Ionia for adults and Jrs to graduate into once their license is complete. But one small XC school isn't going to make a difference nationally.
>
> Sean

Think global. Act local. The US is a big country with scores of clubs and FBOs. You don't need dozens of juniors to come out of each operation. You only need a handful. If only 10 sites focused on this concept, we'd have our 50 juniors in competitions here.

Once there are a bunch of sites committed, I'm sure peer pressure will start to influence some of the other clubs.

Just Do It.

P3

[[email protected]]

John hit the proverbial nail on the head. I believe the SSA should encourage clubs to add single place glass ships to their fleets and do more to encourage cross-country instruction/mentoring across the board. I think proactive policy decisions along these lines (at both the SSA and member club levels), will lead to a more engaged membership and greater retention of pilots (especially younger pilots).

I know a lot of european clubs have refurbished Standard Cirrus, Discus, ASW-20, LS4, etc. that are used by pilots and Juniors alike to persue cross country with. I think this approach not only fascilitates Junior participation but leads to retaining Millenials and GenX that may not be quite ready to buy the $90-150k sailplane of their dreams until the kids are all out of the house. In the meantime, both the mean age for a Regional or National contest here in the US continues to approach the geriatric threshold, which in the long run will make it more difficult to sustain sport, the SSA and many of the clubs that exist around the country.

-Christopher Schrader

[Sean Fidler]

On second thought, and while flattered by the suggestion, I have come to the conclusion that I will not "lead" a round-table on growing youth soaring in the US at the upcoming SSA convention. It is simply not my place.

That said, bringing up the "rather distinct" contrast between the success of (for example) British Youth XC Soaring, and US Youth XC soaring was important. I do not wish to get in the way of those far better suited, connected and equipped to lead this discussion.

We have significant and existing infrastructure of SSA officers, BOD, regional directors, directors at large, commitees, etc. We also have at least a couple soaring clubs who are already working, to some extent, to build and grow youth XC programs. I think that at least one (or perhaps many) of these folks would be far better suited to host a round-table on the subject.

In fact, I am confident that this HUGELY important topic is 1) being added to the schedule and 2) will be a hot a topic of discussion between SSA leadership and club leadership leading up to the upcoming convention. I am also sure that we are already talking to the British and looking for insight, advice and ideas!

Good luck with the round table and the mission! I look forward to listening in.

Sean
7T

[Bob Pasker]

The Seniors in Lake Seminole, however, was very well attended, and had some awesome fiberglass

On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 11:53:06 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Some of you might be interested to know that the UK just held its 2015 Junior Nationals a few weeks ago. Nearly 70 juniors pilots (yes, SEVENTY) competed in the event. As an American, I nearly fell over in my chair when I saw the article (and photo of the grid).
>
> Back in the USA, the SSA doesn't even bother to hold a Junior Nationals.

[son_of_flubber]

I know a 19 y.o. PPL-Glider/SEL in NE USA that wants to connect with people around his age who're interested in XC soaring. Suggestions?

He's currently in school for an aviation career.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 11:44:16 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I know a 19 y.o. PPL-Glider/SEL in NE USA that wants to connect with people around his age who're interested in XC soaring. Suggestions?
>
> He's currently in school for an aviation career.

NE USA is a very big place. Where is this person located?
UH

[son_of_flubber]

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 7:39:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 11:44:16 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > I know a 19 y.o. PPL-Glider/SEL in NE USA that wants to connect with people around his age who're interested in XC soaring. Suggestions?
> >
> > He's currently in school for an aviation career.
>
> NE USA is a very big place. Where is this person located?
> UH

He's going to school in Burlington VT and flies at Sugarbush, but all our pilots are a bit younger or a lot older. We are bringing him along but he'd like to connect with other Juniors on the internet, text etc., maybe start flying in Condor with other Juniors, get the inside scoop from another Junior who's a few years in. PM me contacts if they don't want to be posted to RAS.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:46:25 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 7:39:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 11:44:16 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > > I know a 19 y.o. PPL-Glider/SEL in NE USA that wants to connect with people around his age who're interested in XC soaring. Suggestions?
> > >
> > > He's currently in school for an aviation career.
> >
> > NE USA is a very big place. Where is this person located?
> > UH
>
> He's going to school in Burlington VT and flies at Sugarbush, but all our pilots are a bit younger or a lot older. We are bringing him along but he'd like to connect with other Juniors on the internet, text etc., maybe start flying in Condor with other Juniors, get the inside scoop from another Junior who's a few years in. PM me contacts if they don't want to be posted to RAS.

Feel free to give him my contact information. Danielsazhin at gmail.com or on facebook.

21 year old flying out of Blairstown NJ...

Best Regards,
Daniel

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:46:25 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 7:39:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 11:44:16 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > > I know a 19 y.o. PPL-Glider/SEL in NE USA that wants to connect with people around his age who're interested in XC soaring. Suggestions?
> > >
> > > He's currently in school for an aviation career.
> >
> > NE USA is a very big place. Where is this person located?
> > UH
>
> He's going to school in Burlington VT and flies at Sugarbush, but all our pilots are a bit younger or a lot older. We are bringing him along but he'd like to connect with other Juniors on the internet, text etc., maybe start flying in Condor with other Juniors, get the inside scoop from another Junior who's a few years in. PM me contacts if they don't want to be posted to RAS.

We've got 67 (mostly) juniors here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/USJRSoaring/ Daniel and/or I would be glad to connect with him.

JP

[son_of_flubber]

> We've got 67 (mostly) juniors here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/USJRSoaring/ Daniel and/or I would be glad to connect with him.
>
> JP

Thanks. Your's and Daniel's replies were what I was looking for. I'll pass your contact info to my friend.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 10:46:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:46:25 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 7:39:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 11:44:16 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > > > I know a 19 y.o. PPL-Glider/SEL in NE USA that wants to connect with people around his age who're interested in XC soaring. Suggestions?
> > > >
> > > > He's currently in school for an aviation career.
> > >
> > > NE USA is a very big place. Where is this person located?
> > > UH
> >
> > He's going to school in Burlington VT and flies at Sugarbush, but all our pilots are a bit younger or a lot older. We are bringing him along but he'd like to connect with other Juniors on the internet, text etc., maybe start flying in Condor with other Juniors, get the inside scoop from another Junior who's a few years in. PM me contacts if they don't want to be posted to RAS.
>
> We've got 67 (mostly) juniors here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/USJRSoaring/ Daniel and/or I would be glad to connect with him.
>
> JP

Action- not ideas, what a concept!
Good job
UH

[ND]

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:46:25 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 7:39:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 11:44:16 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > > I know a 19 y.o. PPL-Glider/SEL in NE USA that wants to connect with people around his age who're interested in XC soaring. Suggestions?
> > >
> > > He's currently in school for an aviation career.
> >
> > NE USA is a very big place. Where is this person located?
> > UH
>
> He's going to school in Burlington VT and flies at Sugarbush, but all our pilots are a bit younger or a lot older. We are bringing him along but he'd like to connect with other Juniors on the internet, text etc., maybe start flying in Condor with other Juniors, get the inside scoop from another Junior who's a few years in. PM me contacts if they don't want to be posted to RAS.

give him mine too: brayera at gmail dot com

[Sean Fidler]

Some insight from a British leader. The USA has a long, long way to go...

"Hi Sean
Saw your posts on the above subject and thought I would try to flesh it out a bit.
I was lucky enough to be involved with the UK Junior Nats this year, as I was ******************** in the Regionals that was held alongside the Juniors. We had the same tasks but had a different start line to keep us apart and we started later.....the idea being we might give some clues as we overtook the stragglers from the Juniors as we went through...The juniors gliders ranged from a K6cr to ASG29 with just about everything in between, so no easy job for the task setter.
There were also an entrant from the German Junior training program who came along to take notes as well as fly.

The UK Junior training thing is sooooo much more than just gliding and has taken more than +10 years to get where it is now. Both the Task Setter and Contest Director were Juniors from the first couple of years of the program. There is also a sizeable group of recently ex-Juniors who always tag along. At least 2 of the 6 two seaters that were being used for training were being flown by recent ex juniors. All of these 2 seaters were loaned free of charge from both clubs and individuals. Each 2 seater had 2 pupils for the week taking turns day about. Post task the 2 seaters were put to work for the less experienced covering more basic skills. For the 12 places available for the 2 seaters they had more than 50 applicants.

Having not been a junior for several decades...(OK I'll fes up I'm **) I went along to their first debriefing session and, after it made a point to go to all the others that followed...despite being ex instructor and ex Chief Flying Instructor I gained a huge insight as these debriefings were very well conducted, the Master of Ceremonies at these debriefs is worth his weight in Gold.

The original program started with what were termed (locally) Flying Circus's going round the clubs that requested them. It started with one but quickly went to two.
Each Circus had one good 2 seater, plus suitable coach/senior comp pilot/instructor. They also had another similar qualified pilot with their own glider. Often a local was also inveigled...often the local Chief Flying Instructor with their own glider. These two carried out lead and follow X/C with up to 5 students flying whatever they had anything from K-8 to Discus. Each student also got a day in the 2 seater during the week. Most training weeks also seemed to get hold of a nice glider for the students to convert into at the end of the week to give them the taste of the 'high life' as many of the small clubs at that time did not run to anything better than an Astir at best!
The circle has come round again as the BGA has started this idea up again under the "Aim Higher" initiative which is aimed at the older pilots who for whatever reason are stuck in a rut. So there is nothing new.....

Oh one bit of advice if you get involved with juniors.......never ever go to the bar with them after flying...their livers and kidneys cope far better than yours !

Best Regards,"

[Sean Fidler]

More...

"Sean

During the comp the clubs caterers ran a scheme for the juniors in that for £50 they received both breakfast and evening meal for the whole 9 day comp. For comparison, those of us over 26 years old, an evening meal (starter and main course) typically cost £9.

The Junior organisers had also managed to get 3 x 2000' aerotows worth of sponsorship for each entrant for the comp, this included the chaps and chapesses in the 2 seaters. One of these aerotows was sponsored by an aircraft insurance company but I am not sure who did the other 2 tows.
I also believe that camping was free.
The local nice vario system vendor also set up lots of his wares for all to play with for most of the week. He was also doing a good deal for the juniors on Oudie2 IGC's, moved quite a few of them from what I saw. He also put up some prizes for both the junior comp and for the raffle that was run all week to raise money for the juniors.
He also managed to milk some sales from the Regional pilots. New radio and Flarm display for my part.

One of the other functions of the Flying Circus's during non flying days...(there is always at least one in the UK each week)...was to go through all the pupils gliders instrument plumbing (leak test etc). It was always surprising how many gliders turned up with truly appalling leaks and mis-plumbed instruments. And I would bet it will not be much better in the USA either!
TBH most electric varios suitably plumbed are more than capable of doing the required job.

As I said before, there is a lot more besides the flying to helping juniors..

I hope to be able to meet you when you get over this side of the pond?

Regards"

[Sean Fidler]

A 2016 Jr. Soaring Nationals USA?

(drum roll..........) I will offer to host a first ever USA Jr. Soaring Nationals 2016 in Ionia, Michigan the week before the SGP USA (appx. July 16-23). We need to have at least 10 commitments by a reasonable date (March 31). If anyone has any better ideas, please feel welcomed to raise your hand and speak up.

I challenge US soaring clubs to produce (identify and motivate), support (provide gliders, funding and coaches), develop (train and practice) and send (escort the teams, provide vehicles and help fund) qualified Junior entrants and send them to their first contest just for Junior pilots. I look forward to hearing what US soaring clubs are interested in answering my challenge and would appreciate some heads up (soon) so I can gauge interest and decide if I should start seriously planning.

The competition format would likely be sports class, or could even develop a format as docile as an OLC (max handicapped distance).

The Juniors can mingle with some of the very best pilots in the USA and the world that week as they ramp up for the 2016 Sailplane Grand Prix USA (http://www.sgp.aero/usa2016). This environment could be a lot of fun for junior pilots. But the key is that this is a National Soaring Contest, just for Juniors, and hopefully heavily supported (and attended) by their fellow club members and our national soaring authority (the SSA) just as it is in Britain and other developed soaring nations.

Patiently waiting for feedback...

Sean
7T

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 11:04:52 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> A 2016 Jr. Soaring Nationals USA?
>
> (drum roll..........) I will offer to host a first ever USA Jr. Soaring Nationals 2016 in Ionia, Michigan the week before the SGP USA (appx. July 16-23). We need to have at least 10 commitments by a reasonable date (March 31). If anyone has any better ideas, please feel welcomed to raise your hand and speak up.
>
> I challenge US soaring clubs to produce (identify and motivate), support (provide gliders, funding and coaches), develop (train and practice) and send (escort the teams, provide vehicles and help fund) qualified Junior entrants and send them to their first contest just for Junior pilots. I look forward to hearing what US soaring clubs are interested in answering my challenge and would appreciate some heads up (soon) so I can gauge interest and decide if I should start seriously planning.
>
> The competition format would likely be sports class, or could even develop a format as docile as an OLC (max handicapped distance).
>
> The Juniors can mingle with some of the very best pilots in the USA and the world that week as they ramp up for the 2016 Sailplane Grand Prix USA (http://www.sgp.aero/usa2016). This environment could be a lot of fun for junior pilots. But the key is that this is a National Soaring Contest, just for Juniors, and hopefully heavily supported (and attended) by their fellow club members and our national soaring authority (the SSA) just as it is in Britain and other developed soaring nations.
>
> Patiently waiting for feedback...
>
> Sean
> 7T

This is an excellent idea and I hope people step up. Thanks for taking the constructive approach.

Another alternative would be to add a juniors' sports class onto an existing, successful regional (or Nats). This offers the significant advantage of providing a little flying action for the coaches, and might bolster participation. Venues like Wurtsboro & Mifflin would be great for this.

I'd love to tow along an up and coming junior to my next regional. I've got a glass ship I can put him (or her) in, and I'd be happy to coach. We don't happen to have someone in the club who's ready for this in 2016, but as they say, "Rome didn't get built in a day!".

Evan Ludeman / T8

[Sean Fidler]

Evan,

You're welcome. We are all on the same team here at the end of the day. I believe that we all want to have fun soaring together and would like to see more people actively involved in the sport. At a minimum, we want to see US Soaring growing, healthy and easily accessible. At maximum, we would like to see European levels of participation or beyond.

We have one huge advantage; our knowledge that most parents will move mountains to help their children achieve success and gain confidence in themselves via key sports and activities. Our job is to raise XC soaring and the processes of mastering it higher on the list potential actions parents can employ to help kids grow into successful adults. If parents viewed "youth XC soaring" as a way to give their kid(s) superior life experience tools, we would be growing as a sport.

XC Soaring, in my opinion, is the coolest thing that I have ever done in my life. I have been lucky to experience many sports and activities (from racing motorcycles to Ironman triathlons to sailboat racing and many in between). If asked, soaring (particularly sailplane competition) tops my list by some significant margin. The experiences that I have encountered while flying sailplanes over the mountains out west are simply unforgettable. Equally moving in my life has been meeting the many challenges of learning XC soaring and contests. I am sure that many agree that soaring is an absolutely amazing sport. I can only imagine how my life might have been different if I had mastered XC soaring at 14 instead of 40. What an incredible opportunity these kids have laid out in front of them.

We have an incredible sport to represent to juniors in soaring. Most have no idea what XC soaring is or what it means. In fact, when I say "soaring" to someone new, they immediately change the word to "gliding!" They cannot believe how long the gliders can stay aloft or how far and fast they can go! They "subconsciously" change the word soaring into gliding. Clearly what we have been doing, up until now, is not working. We need to try many new approaches and perhaps consider re-branding the sport with a new, powerful, well-coordinated marketing message. Even most power pilots have no idea what XC soaring is! The call us a "glider add on rating." Something to do some weekend, someday, for fun and then move on... A huge problem.

"Lets Go GLIDING," unfortunately, didn't work.

Anyway, these are things that the SSA must be working on as we speak... ;-) I can't imagine what other higher priorities we have.

My part, for now, is the start a Junior National Contest and help create a culture that supports it and helps it thrive.

Sean
7T

[Sean Fidler]

Evan,

You're welcome. We are all on the same team here at the end of the day. I believe that we all want to have fun soaring together and would like to see more people actively involved in the sport. At a minimum, we want to see US Soaring growing, healthy and easily accessible. At maximum, we would like to see European levels of participation or beyond.

We have one huge advantage; our knowledge that most parents will move mountains to help their children achieve success and gain confidence in themselves via key sports and activities. Our job is to raise XC soaring and the processes of mastering it higher on the list potential actions parents can employ to help kids grow into successful adults. If parents viewed "youth XC soaring" as a way to give their kid(s) superior life experience tools, we would be growing as a sport.

XC Soaring, in my opinion, is the coolest thing that I have ever done in my life. I have been lucky to experience many sports and activities (from racing motorcycles to Ironman triathlons to sailboat racing and many in between). If asked, soaring (particularly sailplane competition) tops my list by some significant margin. The experiences that I have encountered while flying sailplanes over the mountains out west are simply unforgettable. Equally moving in my life has been meeting the many challenges of learning XC soaring and contests. I am sure that many agree that soaring is an absolutely amazing sport. I can only imagine how my life might have been different if I had mastered XC soaring at 14 instead of 40. What an incredible opportunity these kids have laid out in front of them.

We have an incredible sport to represent to juniors in soaring. Most have no idea what XC soaring is or what it means. In fact, when I say "soaring" to someone new, they immediately change the word to "gliding!" They cannot believe how long the gliders can stay aloft or how far and fast they can go! They "subconsciously" change the word soaring into gliding. Clearly what we have been doing, up until now, is not working. We need to try many new approaches and perhaps consider re-branding the sport with a new, powerful, well-coordinated marketing message. Even most power pilots have no idea what XC soaring is! The call us a "glider add on rating." Something to do some weekend, someday, for fun and then move on... A huge problem.

"Lets Go GLIDING," unfortunately, didn't work.

Anyway, these are things that the SSA must be working on as we speak... ;-) I can't imagine what other higher priorities we have.

My part, for now, is to start a US Junior National Contest and help create a culture that supports junior XC soaring and helps it thrive.

Sean
7T

[Sean Fidler]

Evan,

You're welcome. We are all on the same team here at the end of the day. I believe that we all want to have fun soaring together and would like to see more people actively involved in the sport. At a minimum, we want to see US Soaring growing, healthy and easily accessible. At maximum, we would like to see European levels of participation or beyond.

We have one huge advantage; our knowledge that most parents will move mountains to help their children achieve success and gain confidence in themselves via key sports and activities. Our job is to raise XC soaring and the processes of mastering it higher on the list potential actions parents can employ to help kids grow into successful adults. If parents viewed "youth XC soaring" as a way to give their kid(s) superior life experience tools, we would be growing as a sport.

XC Soaring, in my opinion, is the coolest thing that I have ever done in my life. I have been lucky to experience many sports and activities (from racing motorcycles to Ironman triathlons to sailboat racing and many in between). If asked, soaring (particularly sailplane competition) tops my list by some significant margin. The experiences that I have encountered while flying sailplanes over the mountains out west are simply unforgettable. Equally moving in my life has been meeting the many challenges of learning XC soaring and contests. I am sure that many agree that soaring is an absolutely amazing sport. I can only imagine how my life might have been different if I had mastered XC soaring at 14 instead of 40. What an incredible opportunity these kids have laid out in front of them.

We have an incredible sport to represent to juniors in soaring. Most have no idea what XC soaring is or what it means. In fact, when I say "soaring" to someone new, they immediately change the word to "gliding!" They cannot believe how long the gliders can stay aloft or how far and fast they can go! They "subconsciously" change the word soaring into gliding. Clearly what we have been doing, up until now, is not working. We need to try many new approaches and perhaps consider re-branding the sport with a new, powerful, well-coordinated marketing message. Even most power pilots have no idea what XC soaring is! The call us a "glider add-on rating." Something to do some weekend, someday, for fun and then move on... A huge problem.

"Lets Go GLIDING," unfortunately, didn't work.

Anyway, these are things that the SSA must be working on as we speak... ;-) I can't imagine what other higher priorities we have.

My part, for now, is to start a Junior National Contest and help create a culture that supports it and helps it thrive.

Sean
7T

[[email protected]]

Let me suggest that you take a longer term approach to a Junior Nationals like a 5 year or 10 year time frame. Even though our club has 35 Juniors, there's just one I know of that could participate in a Junior Nationals this year. If he's busy during that time, we'd send zero. I suspect other clubs would be in the same boat.

Why don't you consider a Junior XC soaring event as a way to prime the pump for a nationals that follow a year or two later? For example, every two years, we take our Juniors to Mifflin -any skill level, and bring several gliders and instructors. We fly 2-33's, 1-26's ASK-21's and Duo Discus and our Discus CS. We camp on the airport for several days and give the kids a chance to fly at a different airport, experience XC ridge soaring and so on.. They absolutely love it.

You could do the same. Arrange to have several XC instructors and aircraft come to a location (perhaps an East and a West event would be best due to distance). The intent of the session should be to stimulate interest in cross country flying for Juniors of varying skill levels. You can bracket the kids and have a few fly competitively while others learn XC. Start small, limit attendance -perhaps to those who have soloed or have a private pilot certificate and see how it goes. Do something crazy like vette them online using Condor ahead of time.

Keep in mind that whatever you do, it needs to be a parent friendly event. Younger Juniors don't have transportation and for those who do, today's parents aren't going to hand them the keys to SUV with a glider on the back and wave goodbye as they head cross country for the event. Kids are far more controlled and protected than you and I were at their age and even at age 18 and older. Giving parents a chance to help out or do something with their kids while there and making it a turnkey event with gliders to fly and instructors to help out will be important.

A year or two of an event like that should give you a much better idea of how to stimulate Junior XC interests.

[Sean Fidler]

Thanks for your comment.

For me, it's all about what the juniors want. If 10 are willing to show up, I'll host them to the absolute best of my ability and will help them in any way I possibly can. I am open to their guidance and input for sure. If they want another location or a different date, cool.

Skill level, at this point, is unimportant. We know that many clubs will have to work hard to develop our junior pilots to XC levels. Half of our clubs don't have XC for their adults (club equipment)! We have clear models to follow with Jr. XC soaring, however. If your juniors don't have the skills yet to fly solo, then bring a two place (or rent of borrow one) and help them fly with an instructor or coach. I have challenged ALL US clubs to make the effort. I am confident that many can meet the challenge. Its a matter of focus, will and perseverance. Falling short is part of learning. There is little to loose here in being aggressive and trying to schedule an event. If in a country of 340 million, we can't get 10 juniors to a contest (when Britain (66 Million) gets 70, has dozens of events throughout the year, many with waiting lists, etc) we should be truly ashamed.

As these other countries have clearly shown, juniors truly appreciate having "their own" event. In my opinion, they can shape it however they want it.. I look to the Jr. leaders to help make decisions on all of this along with guidance from adult leaders.

The big question is how long will it take for US clubs to make the serious changes required to "truly support" junior XC soaring and build a culture that is as focused on developing juniors as it is on satisfying seniors. If you think about it, any soaring nation that is not equal in these two measures is failing. Therefore, the USA is not doing to well....hmm. "How long" is the big challenge standing in the way of building Junior XC soaring in the USA. I just don't care about the typical excuses anymore. Send your kids! Get them fired up.

I am sure this endeavor will be a learning process, but the upside of having a US Jr. Nationals next year (2016) is well worth the effort. For me at least.

We should fly a representative over to speak at the upcoming SSA convention.. We would be crazy not to do this in fact. WHO IS AT THE HELM OF US SOARING AND THE SSA AGAIN?

Sean

[Sean Fidler]

To be clear, we should fly over a "British Gliding Association"(BGA) representative who is intimate with their Junior Development Program to the upcoming SSA convention. He/She/They should be presenting on Day 1 at 9am and the session should be standing room only...

What they are doing in Britain should be carefully studied by all of us.

What is a higher priority?

Sean
7T

[[email protected]]

It's been a long time since I was a junior (I'm 64, having started flying at 14), but I'm not sure how appealing a small Junior Nationals would have been for me at the time. One of the most thrilling experiences of my early soaring career was my first contest when I was 17: the Central Ohio Soaring Association's Annual Fall Roundup one weekend in September 1968. My father brought his Diamant HBV and we also trailered our 1-26. One of the attractions was flying with the "big boys": e.g., AJ Smith, Rudy Mozer, and other fine pilots I'd known about for years.

An even bigger thrill was my first nationals, the 1976 15M Nats in Bryan, OH (the first 15M contest), in which I flew our Libelle 201. I'm not sure whether there were other juniors at the 1968 contest but I know of at least one other at the 1976 Nats: Eric Mozer (he was 22 then but I was actually 25). True, by that time I had flown enough regionals to feel comfortable tilting with the top pilots but I measured myself against Eric's performance each day there not particularly because he was a junior, but because by then he was already winning days and on his way to winning his first nationals not long after. And, of course, a young Tommy Beltz was already on his way at that point, as well.

Going to a juniors contest might have been fun, but more because of the social aspects, the mutual support, and what I could hopefully learn. In its proposed form at Ionia--i.e., acknowledging that most of those participating will likely be fairly new to competition--I think I would have viewed a junior nats almost as a camp, not a real contest.

That's not to say there's anything wrong with that concept, only that others have proposed modifications to the idea that would enhance its value as a camp: e.g., dual instruction in high-performance two-seaters from experienced pilots, classroom sessions, detailed debriefs.

Like Sean, some of the best experiences of my life have been in soaring. I was extremely fortunate that my father was an instructor, competition pilot, glider owner, and strong supporter of my flying, and that we lived near what is now the Caesar Creek Soaring Club, surely one of the country's most vibrant soaring organizations. I've also been fortunate to visit or fly with Harris Hill Soaring Club, Valley Soaring, and the Blairstown folks, three of the strongest groups for juniors. I don't have any new answers as to how to encourage more junior participation in cross country and contests. I do know I would have given almost anything to be able to ride around in the back seat with someone like Karl Striedieck on a contest task back then. Heck, I still would, but that would mean giving up a day in one of the few contests I can fly now. :)

Good luck with the proposed Junior Nats. If you've already received feedback from a good cross section of junior pilots and this is the result, just ignore my dated response. If not, it would probably be worth surveying the juniors we already have to see what they would like in a dedicated contest, event, or sub-class in a larger contest. As with any other "minority", it's dangerous to presume that we older white males have any insight into what others really want.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

[Sean Fidler]

Good stuff Chip! I agree.

Where is the SSA on this topic?

Crickets.........

[gb]

On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 3:15:23 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Good stuff Chip! I agree.
>
> Where is the SSA on this topic?
>
> Crickets.........

With what Chip said the path forward is easy. Put a Junior in your glider, crew for, and coach them through regular contests. Simple. No need for SSA to do anything.

[[email protected]]

In case you haven't already go to youtube and search UK Junior Gliding TV to see what Sean is talking about here. Those kids are having an amazing good time. I enjoyed putsing around with the old guys when I was a kid but given the choice any teenager would rather have the kind of fun the Brittish Junior Team is having.
Heck, I want to go hang out with them myself!

[[email protected]]

Those kids are having an amazing good time. I enjoyed putsing around with the old guys when I was a kid but given the choice any teenager would rather have the kind of fun the Brittish Junior Team is having.
> Heck, I want to go hang out with them myself!

It's not that I enjoyed "putzing around with the old guys" per se. Some things don't change. :) I just wanted to fly against them in competition. Spending time and money to tilt against a handful of barely post-solo juniors wouldn't have been as attractive once I got past that stage myself.

On the other hand, the stuff on the UK Junior Gliding TV videos looks marvelous! Yes, yes, yes, in a minute. But doing grass-level, high-speed passes in a modern glider at the Junior World Championship before dancing the night away isn't quite what one is likely to encounter at Ionia next summer.

Of course, you have to start somewhere, and--as Sean has pointed out--the UK Junior experience is a great goal. So if, after polling the juniors, there's enough interest in the proposed event, then by all means go for it. I was just expressing what my views were at the time, a far different time by someone who was in the ideal position to benefit from my father and a good club.

And it was a time, as now, when there just weren't very many junior pilots. Perhaps a good question would be: How many of today's competition pilots started flying gliders as juniors? I know of quite a few: Eric Mozer, Erik Nelson, Erik Mann (hey, there's a theme, here!), Sean Fidler, Sean Franke (another theme), Tommy Beltz, Hank Nixon, Roy McMaster (I believe), Garret and Boyd Willet, John Seymour, Chris Woods, Andy Blackburn, Rick Indrebo, Dave Mockler, Danny Sorenson, Mitch Hudson, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some plus leaving out others I don't know. I think most, though certainly not all, of these pilots had a family connection: a father or other family member who was already involved in soaring. Trying to duplicate that may be a way to grow our base but I suspect we're looking for more than this.

It's probably no accident that two guys on this list who got into soaring based on their own strong interest--Hank Nixon and Erik Mann--have been leaders in encouraging cross country, competition, and junior soaring for many years in my part of the country...and can probably speak much more knowledgeably about what it takes to promote junior soaring than I can.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

[Uk Junior Gliding]

Hi All,

We are pleased to see that UK Junior Gliding has been well received.

I think the biggest thing we have tried to achieve is a sense of community
- even in the UK, distances make it difficult to hold regular events and
for friends to meet up. Social media has been key to this, alongside a few
organised weekend events. Once you create a nationwide friend group, who
want to make the effort to travel then half the battle is won. It doesn't
happen overnight, but once the foundations are laid, it continues to grow.

We use facebook / youtube to keep things light-hearted, informative and
competitive. We all know gliding is an awesome sport, but sometimes the
rules and regulations get in the way of that. We have focussed a lot of
energy on displaying the true image of gliding.

Needless to say, we are greatly assisted by non-Juniors. At our "Winter
Series" (over 80 Junior entries) we have private owners bringing their
2-seaters and flying Juniors, helping with the launching, and generally
showing support to the future of the sport. It is key to the current
success of UKJG and great to see. We want to create a culture of giving
back, its the only way to sustainably grow a Junior scene.

This only scratches the surface.

If a Junior development group is set up Stateside, we would be more than
happy to offer our advice / experiences where possible.

Feel free to fire us an email at or message us
through the facebook page www.facebook.com/ukjuniorgliding.

Cheers
Charlie Jordan, Steve Pozerskis, Matt Davis

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 5:40:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Let me suggest that you take a longer term approach to a Junior Nationals like a 5 year or 10 year time frame. Even though our club has 35 Juniors, there's just one I know of that could participate in a Junior Nationals this year. If he's busy during that time, we'd send zero. I suspect other clubs would be in the same boat.
>
> Why don't you consider a Junior XC soaring event as a way to prime the pump for a nationals that follow a year or two later? For example, every two years, we take our Juniors to Mifflin -any skill level, and bring several gliders and instructors. We fly 2-33's, 1-26's ASK-21's and Duo Discus and our Discus CS. We camp on the airport for several days and give the kids a chance to fly at a different airport, experience XC ridge soaring and so on. They absolutely love it.
>
> You could do the same. Arrange to have several XC instructors and aircraft come to a location (perhaps an East and a West event would be best due to distance). The intent of the session should be to stimulate interest in cross country flying for Juniors of varying skill levels. You can bracket the kids and have a few fly competitively while others learn XC. Start small, limit attendance -perhaps to those who have soloed or have a private pilot certificate and see how it goes. Do something crazy like vette them online using Condor ahead of time.
>
> Keep in mind that whatever you do, it needs to be a parent friendly event.. Younger Juniors don't have transportation and for those who do, today's parents aren't going to hand them the keys to SUV with a glider on the back and wave goodbye as they head cross country for the event. Kids are far more controlled and protected than you and I were at their age and even at age 18 and older. Giving parents a chance to help out or do something with their kids while there and making it a turnkey event with gliders to fly and instructors to help out will be important.
>
> A year or two of an event like that should give you a much better idea of how to stimulate Junior XC interests.

We're beginning to lay the ground work for 2016 in R2/R3. Since R2N at Wurtsboro will be replaced by the Club Nationals our common venue for newbie 2 seat flying will need to move for 2016.
I'm sure Dansville will be stepping up with R3 in August. I'm planning on bringing K21 with my 2 hottest juniors from '14, and maybe one more. I hear P3 is looking at bringing Ethan and the Grob. Hopefully we can get Harris Hill to bring a 21 or 2 with some juniors. I'ts only 50 miles away. Dansville has a '21 and some live juniors.
We should be able to get enough for a Bus Class.
If we do a bit of organizing, I expect we could have 10-12 newbies at that event, most of them Juniors.
This is pretty much like what we have been doing, but by making it closer to Elmira maybe we can suck them in.
UH
UH

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

At 21:22 06 October 2015, wrote:
>On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 5:40:06 PM UTC-4,
>wr=
>ote:
>> Let me suggest that you take a longer term approach to a Junior
>Nationals=
> like a 5 year or 10 year time frame. Even though our club has 35
>Juniors,=
> there's just one I know of that could participate in a Junior Nationals
>th=
>is year. If he's busy during that time, we'd send zero. I suspect other
>c=
>lubs would be in the same boat.
>>=20
>> Why don't you consider a Junior XC soaring event as a way to prime the
>pu=
>mp for a nationals that follow a year or two later? For example, every
>two=
> years, we take our Juniors to Mifflin -any skill level, and bring
several
>=
>gliders and instructors. We fly 2-33's, 1-26's ASK-21's and Duo Discus
>and=
> our Discus CS. We camp on the airport for several days and give the
kids
>=
>a chance to fly at a different airport, experience XC ridge soaring and
so
>=
>on. They absolutely love it.
>>=20
>> You could do the same. Arrange to have several XC instructors and
>aircra=
>ft come to a location (perhaps an East and a West event would be best due
>t=
>o distance). The intent of the session should be to stimulate interest
in
>=
>cross country flying for Juniors of varying skill levels. You can
bracket
>=
>the kids and have a few fly competitively while others learn XC. Start
>smal=
>l, limit attendance -perhaps to those who have soloed or have a private
>pil=
>ot certificate and see how it goes. Do something crazy like vette them
>onl=
>ine using Condor ahead of time.
>>=20
>> Keep in mind that whatever you do, it needs to be a parent friendly
>event=
>.. Younger Juniors don't have transportation and for those who do,
today's
>=
>parents aren't going to hand them the keys to SUV with a glider on the
>back=
> and wave goodbye as they head cross country for the event. Kids are far
>m=
>ore controlled and protected than you and I were at their age and even at
>a=
>ge 18 and older. Giving parents a chance to help out or do something
with
>=
>their kids while there and making it a turnkey event with gliders to fly
>an=
>d instructors to help out will be important.
>>=20
>> A year or two of an event like that should give you a much better idea
>of=
> how to stimulate Junior XC interests.
>
>We're beginning to lay the ground work for 2016 in R2/R3. Since R2N at
>Wurt=
>sboro will be replaced by the Club Nationals our common venue for newbie
2
>=
>seat flying will need to move for 2016.
>I'm sure Dansville will be stepping up with R3 in August. I'm planning on
>b=
>ringing K21 with my 2 hottest juniors from '14, and maybe one more. I
hear
>=
>P3 is looking at bringing Ethan and the Grob. Hopefully we can get Harris
>H=
>ill to bring a 21 or 2 with some juniors. I'ts only 50 miles away.
>Dansvill=
>e has a '21 and some live juniors.=20
>We should be able to get enough for a Bus Class.
>If we do a bit of organizing, I expect we could have 10-12 newbies at
that
>=
>event, most of them Juniors.=20
>This is pretty much like what we have been doing, but by making it closer
>t=
>o Elmira maybe we can suck them in.
>UH
>UH
>The junior comments

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Huge thanks to Sutton Bank for hosting the latest round of the Winter
Series. A very warm welcome, friendly club members and a stunning view
from the top of the ridge!!!

Despite the pretty average weather forecast around 60 Juniors plus
another
20 more senior pilots headed to YGC for the weekend.

A mixture of ridge/wave followed with 75 aerotows across the weekend and
a
pretty hefty bar bill as well!

Thank you to those that dragged 2 seaters up to help us out. As ever, we
cannot do it without you!

We will return to the Long Mynd in early February. If anyone is
interested
in bringing a 2 seater along please let us know.

Cheers

UK Junior Gliding Development Team

[Sean Fidler]

Meanwhile in the USA?..............

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

Dude - lead, follow or get out of the way. Whining is counter-productive - it sucks energy out of everyone who's put actual effort into doing something, as well as those who might.

Talk is cheap - on the 'net it's really cheap.

9B

[Sean Fidler]

I'm not part of the SSA leadership. Isn't that what they do, dude?

What are there objectives?

Where are the progress reports?

What are the goals?

Dude?

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 7:25:34 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I'm not part of the SSA leadership. Isn't that what they do, dude?
>
> What are there objectives?
>
> Where are the progress reports?
>
> What are the goals?
>
> Dude?

You remind me of Trump, dude

[BobW]

>> I'm not part of the SSA leadership. Isn't that what they do, dude?
>>
>> What are [their] objectives?
>>
>> Where are the progress reports?
>>
>> What are the goals?
>>
>> Dude?
>
> You remind me of Trump, dude
>

Chortle!

Bob W.

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 5:25:34 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I'm not part of the SSA leadership. Isn't that what they do, dude?
>
> What are there objectives?
>
> Where are the progress reports?
>
> What are the goals?
>
> Dude?

Without nit-picking the finer points of having objectives vs goals...

You can run for leadership and work to put all those things in place and inspire volunteers to mange them. That would be "lead".

You can volunteer to support the current structure for junior soaring and be part of the system to execute whatever goals leadership decides on - but not have a vote on direction yourself. That would be "follow". If you had some real energy for it, leadership might even endorse a well thought-out proposal for you and others you enlist to help you to execute some new ideas. That would be super cool.

The last option I hope is self-evident.

I'm not saying the current state is ideal or that there is nothing that can be done better, but calling volunteers out for not doing things that a) may not even be priorities (vs the hundreds of other challenges the SSA faces) or even supportable with the current (mostly volunteer) resourcing, and, b) you yourself aren't even willing to put effort into, is a bit beyond the pale.

There have been some useful thoughts and comments here, but little different will happen unless people step in and put their time and energy into it. The SSA can endorse their efforts but the work needs to come from the membership.

[Sean Fidler]

That is a bunch of crap.

What exactly does the SSA staff and officials do, if not growing the membership?

Anyone? List it please.

[ND]

*opens fridge...yep, same food as when i looked five minutes ago....*

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 1:01:38 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
> That is a bunch of crap.
>
> What exactly does the SSA staff and officials do, if not growing the membership?
>
> Anyone? List it please.

Hey Sean,

I looked it up. The SSA has a Growth and Retention Committee. Guess who appears on the list?

You!

http://www.ssa.org/GrowthDevelopment?show=11

(you need to be logged in to view it)

Here's how they describe how Development, Growth and Retention works.

"The mission of the Soaring Society of America is to Foster and Promote the Sport of Soaring. As a volunteer organization we rely in large part on our members to help fulfill this important task. Please take a moment to consider how you can help.

In this section you will find programs and resources to help grow the sport of Soaring. For more information contact the Growth and Retention Committee."

I'm not sure if the list is current, but presumably it was correct at one time. I'm sure people would be curious to know what your goals, objectives, key initiatives, metrics for success and progress against those metrics are/were.

List, please. ;-)

For other SSA priorities a stroll though the website gives you at least some sense for what it does. I'm not saying I think everything is perfect - far from it. I've heard the stories and some of the history is pretty bad. But it only gets better if people step up.

These are pretty challenging issues - unfortunately they won't get solved on r.a.s.

9B

[Ron Gleason]

On Wednesday, 21 October 2015 14:01:38 UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> That is a bunch of crap.
>
> What exactly does the SSA staff and officials do, if not growing the membership?
>
> Anyone? List it please.

If you are truly interested in what is and has happened you should review documents that were prepared for September 2015 BOD meeting at http://www.ssa.org/Bluebooks

[Sean Fidler]

Herb,

Why thank you! As Mr. Trump is leading every National poll (has been for many months), thanks for the rather impressive complement. If you had related me to Hillary Clinton the champion of "#untrustworthy" and an obvious liar and fraud, I would be shaken for sure. Of course, I would never support either of these fools. Moving on...

What have I contributed lately? I have offered to run a week long US Junior Nationals Contest next season (2 weeks before SGP USA while many of top international pilots will be on hand training). I am also hosting the first 2016 Sailplane Grand Prix USA. Both events will be held next summer. These are both fairly huge commitments in time, money and effort which I am more than happy to sacrifice as they are both important and highly relevant.

Why is Sailplane Grand Prix 2016 relevant.? Look at the response! Despite a massive conflict with other US contests, we have been able to generate a staggering response for the 2016 SGP USA, easily selling out nearly a full year before the competition begins in late July 2016. This includes 7 international pilots from Europe and Australia plus a HUGE Canadian response. In fact, SGP USA has attracted more top international talent than the USA has seen in decades (other than a World Championships). Developing and running either of these events is a huge undertaking. Especially the SGP USA with the requirement of attracting major corporate sponsors, a significant budget, significant entertainment challenges, live web broadcasts and commentating for the tracking system, major media interest (CNN, Eurosport to name a few) and, of course, real sailplane racing for these amazing sailplane pilots. What a great backdrop this could be for a 1st US Junior Nationals. "....crickets..." Anyway...

We have no "club" in Ionia. My wife and I are carrying 95% of the load. We literally will do everything necessary to get the job done and hope to have some support along the way. This has been the same program in Ionia for many years. The gang is aging out and out of gas. We are happy to do it.

SGP USA website: www.sgp.aero/usa2016

Meanwhile, the SSA has offered us zero support for either of these events. I could argue, exceedingly well, that the SSA support is actually "negative." What a missed opportunity on both counts. Much more on this later.

If offering to develop and deliver these fantastic competitions is not meaningful action for A) spurring on US Junior Soaring growth development and B) expanding US & International REAL Sailplane Racing, I have no idea what is. What else should I be doing for you?

What has the SSA done to develop youth soaring? What's the plan? Who's driving? Is it working? How is the SSAs performance measured? Who is accountable? What are the SSA "senior?" leaders key objectives? What are their functions, goals and responsabilities? What progress is being made towards these objectives? Where does youth soaring rank in their list of priorities? More crickets...

Why does the USA seem to underperform in so many areas while a small countries like Britain or Australia (as large and spread out as the USA claims to be, if not MORE) seem to excel?

I know these are challenging questions. But they need to be asked, often and endlessly until the but begins to turn again. we simply cannot afford to flail around like this any longer. Can we?

We need some strong, new, disciplined leadership & management and FAR less good old boys...

Sean
7T

[Sean Fidler]

Andy,

It's been over a year? since an email has gone out from this growth and dev "committee." Maybe more. Not very active from my perspective. When we last had a meeting, I offered to run an SSA booth (4 days) at North Americas largest RC aircraft convention. We tried to sell FAST packages similar to Sun and Fun and Oshkosh. Commendable efforts by all the volunteers at these events. All three were hard to measure but likely slight financial failures, unfortunately.

Then there was the Cloud Street marketing effort. File that one next to let's go gliding?

See my post above. I'm busy with other "projects" now. Happy to help if it gets rolling again.

This junior (and adult) cross country soaring skills challenge should not be in a side committee. We are a nation of pattern clubs giving rides, or giving themselves "rides."

This challenge of cross country skills development (Jr. and adult and clubs) should be front and center with the Charimen and all BOD and officers "hands on deck." Should it not?

If not, what are their top 10 priorities?

Sean
7T