Another glider crash?

[Ron Gleason]

Saratoga NY, news report here

http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s3911217.shtml?cat=10114&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[son_of_flubber]

"Deputies say Szymanowski was coming in too fast. He tried landing twice, and on the third try, came up short."

What?

[GeneReinecke]

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 3:13:54 PM UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
> Saratoga NY, news report here
>
> http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s3911217.shtml?cat=10114&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Wow, did they send the 7th grade Journalism class out to report on the accident?
From severed foot to cutting the cable to uncontrolled airspace. I don't what to write so I will just keep writing . . .

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Sorry to hear of another accident. I agree the journalism left a bit to be desired "smashed face" ...

Hope for a speedy recovery.


On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 4:11:07 PM UTC-7, GeneReinecke wrote:
> On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 3:13:54 PM UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
> > Saratoga NY, news report here
> >
> > http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s3911217.shtml?cat=10114&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
>
> Wow, did they send the 7th grade Journalism class out to report on the accident?
> From severed foot to cutting the cable to uncontrolled airspace. I don't what to write so I will just keep writing . . .

[BobW]

On 9/20/2015 3:45 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> "Deputies say Szymanowski was coming in too fast. He tried landing twice,
> and on the third try, came up short."
>
> What?
>

Always distressing to learn of any glider crunch, particularly those involving
injury of any kind. May the pilot's outcome be the best possible given his
injuries, and best wishes to him, his family and friends.

Enough years have passed for me to have more experience than I'd like with
first-hand information related to stories (of all kinds) that have found their
way into printed news outlets, and I've yet to encounter one that has NOT had
at least one error in fact (as distinct from awkward phraseology); seems to be
the nature of the beast. (Remember that old children's game of "telephone?"
News reporting is its close cousin.)

Point being that all non-hoax-origin news stories have some relationship to
actual occurrences, and short of first-hand knowledge, the best one can do is
continually hone their "reading between the lines" skills while practicing
"critical thinking" when it comes to trying to decipher what may have actually
happened. I suppose one possible surmise as to what the above quote is trying
to convey might be that the pilot did two zoomies with insufficient energy to
complete the desired landing. But I'm not betting any Real Money on that guess...

Bob - all ears - W.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 9:00:24 PM UTC-5, BobW wrote:

> Point being that all non-hoax-origin news stories have some relationship
> to actual occurrences, and short of first-hand knowledge, the best one can > do is continually hone their "reading between the lines" skills while
> practicing "critical thinking" when it comes to trying to decipher what
> may have actually happened. I suppose one possible surmise as to what the > above quote is trying to convey might be that the pilot did two zoomies
> with insufficient energy to complete the desired landing. But I'm not
> betting any Real Money on that guess...
>
> Bob - all ears - W.

My personal reading between the lines is that someone said it was his third flight of the day. And the reporter's need to sensationalize took over from there.

But, being half a continent away probably makes me more knowledgeable than the reporter!

All the best for as complete a recovery as possible.

Steve Leonard

[Tim Hanke]

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:45:48 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> "Deputies say Szymanowski was coming in too fast. He tried landing twice, and on the third try, came up short."
>
> What?

The pilot was flying an ASWW-19, which per my understanding has a gear handle located adjacent to the spoiler handle. Several witnesses on the ground watched the landing gear go up and down as the pilot over flew the entire length of the runway, turned around, and then overshoot the runway. Not sure if dehydration was an issue here? may never know? Thoughts and prayers with the pilot and his family.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

Thanks for the added info, Tim.

I use to have little sympathy for those who grabbed the wrong handle and did not notice. Until I did it myself. Thoughts and prayers for the pilot, his family, partners, and all involved.

Steve Leonard

[Soartech]

My friend who has an ASW-19 has a big, toothed hair clip (from his girlfreind) on his landing gear handle so he can instantly feel and see the difference.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 6:39:53 AM UTC-7, Tim Hanke wrote:
> On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:45:48 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > "Deputies say Szymanowski was coming in too fast. He tried landing twice, and on the third try, came up short."
> >
> > What?
>
> The pilot was flying an ASWW-19, which per my understanding has a gear handle located adjacent to the spoiler handle. Several witnesses on the ground watched the landing gear go up and down as the pilot over flew the entire length of the runway, turned around, and then overshoot the runway. Not sure if dehydration was an issue here? may never know? Thoughts and prayers with the pilot and his family.

- Strange that someone that has been regularly flying the 19 made that mistake. The levers are clearly distinguishable - one goes from locked to unlocked position with a clear motion pattern and spoilers require just linear motion, plus both are pretty far apart.

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

I watched a ASW-20 pilot do the exact same thing (pulling the gear up) thinking he was deploying the spoilers. First flight in a friends ship, it looked like a prefect landing, but he just kept coming and coming. Flew right into the fence at the end of the runway! I'm not surprised, there are 3 handles, all the same shape, size and all clustered together on the left side of the cockpit. I believe they were all black also, but I think later on the spoiler handle was blue. Often thought the shape should be different, say rectangular for the spoilers, round for the gear and airfoil shaped for the flaps. As an old radar operator, I remember the primary control knobs were different........square for gain, rectangular for tilt, round for marks, etc. never looked at the knobs, just knew by feel.
JJ

[Jim White[_3_]]

At 18:32 21 September 2015, wrote:
>On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 6:39:53 AM UTC-7, Tim Hanke wrote:
>> On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:45:48 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber
wrote:
>> > "Deputies say Szymanowski was coming in too fast. He tried landing
>twic=
>e, and on the third try, came up short."
>> >=20
>> > What?
>>=20
>> The pilot was flying an ASWW-19, which per my understanding has a gear
>ha=
>ndle located adjacent to the spoiler handle. Several witnesses on the
>groun=
>d watched the landing gear go up and down as the pilot over flew the
>entire=
> length of the runway, turned around, and then overshoot the runway. Not
>su=
>re if dehydration was an issue here? may never know? Thoughts and prayers
>w=
>ith the pilot and his family.
>
> - Strange that someone that has been regularly flying the 19 made that
>mis=
>take. The levers are clearly distinguishable - one goes from locked to
>unlo=
>cked position with a clear motion pattern and spoilers require just
linear
>=
>motion, plus both are pretty far apart.
>
Sadly a common occurrence never-the-less

[George Haeh]

The spoiler handle hangs down from a
horizontal rod and rotates freely. To use
it you normally rotate it counterclockwise
about 90°.

The gear handle sticks straight up lower
down and rotates clockwise just enough
to get out of the stop.

AS seems to have put effort in designing
decent ergonomics, but dehydration and
unfamiliarity with type can trump that.

Back in my student days, some
instructors told me to look at the spoilers
on the downwind check. If you're moving
the correct handle you will see them
move.

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 3:45:09 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
>
> Back in my student days, some
> instructors told me to look at the spoilers
> on the downwind check. If you're moving
> the correct handle you will see them
> move.

I emphasize that with students as well. When you get to the landing checklist pull the divebrake/spoiler handle and look at the wing to see them operating. It's possible in my ASG-29 to pull "a handle" and feel something happen, but not what you expected. I've done it myself with the flap handle on my ASG-29. I found myself modulating flaps early on instead of the divebrakes. Luckily, I was looking at the wing and was able to recognize that I wasn't moving the correct handle.

P3

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:13:54 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
> Saratoga NY, news report here
>
> http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s3911217.shtml?cat=10114&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Look at the thread "the sweetest ASW20B on the planet"-check the cockpit pictures-I see the 3 almost identical orange handles very close to each other.
Great ASW 20 though !
Dan

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 6:39:53 AM UTC-7, Tim Hanke wrote:
> On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:45:48 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > "Deputies say Szymanowski was coming in too fast. He tried landing twice, and on the third try, came up short."
> >
> > What?
>
> The pilot was flying an ASWW-19, which per my understanding has a gear handle located adjacent to the spoiler handle. Several witnesses on the ground watched the landing gear go up and down as the pilot over flew the entire length of the runway, turned around, and then overshoot the runway. Not sure if dehydration was an issue here? may never know? Thoughts and prayers with the pilot and his family.

I doubt dehydration. More likely distraction followed by tunnel vision. unfortunately a common thing. Something distracted the pilot (such as another aircraft in the pattern) resulted on pulling on the wrong handle without noticing. Next come the tunnel vision where the pilot is convinced something is wrong with the spoilers and keep trying to deploy them.
Same thing happened at Truckee few years ago and the pilot ended up at the bottom of the cliff after going the full length of the runway in each direction, luckily unhurt but glider destroyed.

Ramy

[Werner Schmidt]

wrote 2015/09/22 at 00:29:

> On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:13:54 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason
> wrote:
>> Saratoga NY, news report here
>>
>> http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s3911217.shtml?cat=10114&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
>
>>
> Look at the thread "the sweetest ASW20B on the planet"-check the
> cockpit pictures-I see the 3 almost identical orange handles very
> close to each other. Great ASW 20 though !

Dan, have a second look. Thei're wooden, and that's not stock.

Regards
Werner

[Jim White[_3_]]

I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
performance!

An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A bit like
tying a knot in your tie.

I guess the converse is true. If it ain't got the rubber band on it then it
isn't the brake handle.

[Tango Eight]

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 3:45:09 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
> The spoiler handle hangs down from a
> horizontal rod and rotates freely. To use
> it you normally rotate it counterclockwise
> about 90°.
>
> The gear handle sticks straight up lower
> down and rotates clockwise just enough
> to get out of the stop.
>
> AS seems to have put effort in designing
> decent ergonomics, but dehydration and
> unfamiliarity with type can trump that.

There was an over run accident some years ago involving a CFI-G in an ASW-24. The spoilers never came out. Later, it was concluded that the pilot was pulling on the release handle (a bit like an early 1-26!).

Schleicher cockpit ergonomics are wonderful. In the 20, the gear, flap and spoiler handles are all on the left and use the same shape grip, but the controls feel and move in completely different ways. So when an accident like this happens, suspicions tend toward pilot incapacitation as the root cause. The ASW-24 example shows that moving the gear handle to the right side of the cockpit isn't a completely effective solution.

> Back in my student days, some
> instructors told me to look at the spoilers
> on the downwind check. If you're moving
> the correct handle you will see them
> move.

We teach this. One part of the exercise is to discover what "1/2 spoilers" (determined by looking at the spoilers) requires in terms of control position and effort (varies by glider type). This thread illustrates another reason to do it.

Evan Ludeman

[Sean Fidler]

I noticed the same thing when taking the photos and video of th 20. See the thread for the video (early in video are many shots of the cockpit). It does seem like the handles are close together.

Great glider regardless.

I suppose we should be fitting different handles but most importantly, training pilots to have a procedure to ensure they are double checking the control reaction (looking at the spoilers for example) and visual handle location of their hand on the handle every time. Not an easy task.

Sean

[Dan Marotta]

Discussing this incident yesterday at Moriarty, someone related the
story of an acquaintance who placed a tennis ball on the spoiler handle
when the gear was up. When he lowered the gear, he moved the ball to
the gear handle. Worked for him.

We also had a gear up landing the day before that discussion. The pilot
got low south of the field and was preparing to land on RWY 36. He got
a small thermal which boosted him to 300' AGL and decided to extend to
base for RWY 26. He told me he was thinking "Oh Boy! This is gonna be
my best landing ever!", and then hearing a scraping sound...

On 9/22/2015 4:15 AM, Jim White wrote:
> I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
> airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
> performance!
>
> An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
> handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
> doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A bit like
> tying a knot in your tie.
>
> I guess the converse is true. If it ain't got the rubber band on it then it
> isn't the brake handle.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Chris Rollings[_2_]]

Once, long ago, I nearly got my hand crushed when about to attach a cable
to an ASW20 (belly-hook only). The pilot retracted the U/C when he meant
ot check the air-brakes. The Pilot concerned was a current national
champion, practicing in the glider he was about to fly in the World
Championships. He was also an experienced instructor. His day job was
Airline Captain. Schlecher's practice of putting all the levers on the
left was, in my opinion, not a good idea, it produced more problems than
does changing hands to retract the gear.

At 10:20 22 September 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
>On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 3:45:09 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
>> The spoiler handle hangs down from a=20
>> horizontal rod and rotates freely. To use=20
>> it you normally rotate it counterclockwise=20
>> about 90=B0. =20
>>=20
>> The gear handle sticks straight up lower=20
>> down and rotates clockwise just enough=20
>> to get out of the stop.=20
>>=20
>> AS seems to have put effort in designing=20
>> decent ergonomics, but dehydration and=20
>> unfamiliarity with type can trump that.=20
>
>There was an over run accident some years ago involving a CFI-G in an
>ASW-2=
>4. The spoilers never came out. Later, it was concluded that the pilot
>wa=
>s pulling on the release handle (a bit like an early 1-26!).
>
>Schleicher cockpit ergonomics are wonderful. In the 20, the gear, flap
>and=
> spoiler handles are all on the left and use the same shape grip, but the
>c=
>ontrols feel and move in completely different ways. So when an accident
>lik=
>e this happens, suspicions tend toward pilot incapacitation as the root
>cau=
>se. The ASW-24 example shows that moving the gear handle to the right
>side=
> of the cockpit isn't a completely effective solution.
>
>> Back in my student days, some=20
>> instructors told me to look at the spoilers=20
>> on the downwind check. If you're moving=20
>> the correct handle you will see them=20
>> move.
>
>We teach this. One part of the exercise is to discover what "1/2
>spoilers"=
> (determined by looking at the spoilers) requires in terms of control
>posit=
>ion and effort (varies by glider type). This thread illustrates another
>re=
>ason to do it.
>
>Evan Ludeman
>

[Dan Marotta]

Edit: That was 700' AGL, not 300' AGL.

On 9/22/2015 7:18 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Discussing this incident yesterday at Moriarty, someone related the
> story of an acquaintance who placed a tennis ball on the spoiler
> handle when the gear was up. When he lowered the gear, he moved the
> ball to the gear handle. Worked for him.
>
> We also had a gear up landing the day before that discussion. The
> pilot got low south of the field and was preparing to land on RWY 36.
> He got a small thermal which boosted him to 300' AGL and decided to
> extend to base for RWY 26. He told me he was thinking "Oh Boy! This
> is gonna be my best landing ever!", and then hearing a scraping sound...
>
> On 9/22/2015 4:15 AM, Jim White wrote:
>> I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
>> airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
>> performance!
>>
>> An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
>> handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
>> doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A bit like
>> tying a knot in your tie.
>>
>> I guess the converse is true. If it ain't got the rubber band on it then it
>> isn't the brake handle.
>>
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Of the 5 gliders I've owned, only the ASW-19b had the gear handle on the
left side. I never liked that and it's never been a problem changing
hands on the stick to lower the gear with the other gliders.

On 9/22/2015 7:31 AM, Chris Rollings wrote:
> Once, long ago, I nearly got my hand crushed when about to attach a cable
> to an ASW20 (belly-hook only). The pilot retracted the U/C when he meant
> ot check the air-brakes. The Pilot concerned was a current national
> champion, practicing in the glider he was about to fly in the World
> Championships. He was also an experienced instructor. His day job was
> Airline Captain. Schlecher's practice of putting all the levers on the
> left was, in my opinion, not a good idea, it produced more problems than
> does changing hands to retract the gear.
>
> At 10:20 22 September 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
>> On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 3:45:09 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
>>> The spoiler handle hangs down from a=20
>>> horizontal rod and rotates freely. To use=20
>>> it you normally rotate it counterclockwise=20
>>> about 90=B0. =20
>>> =20
>>> The gear handle sticks straight up lower=20
>>> down and rotates clockwise just enough=20
>>> to get out of the stop.=20
>>> =20
>>> AS seems to have put effort in designing=20
>>> decent ergonomics, but dehydration and=20
>>> unfamiliarity with type can trump that.=20
>> There was an over run accident some years ago involving a CFI-G in an
>> ASW-2=
>> 4. The spoilers never came out. Later, it was concluded that the pilot
>> wa=
>> s pulling on the release handle (a bit like an early 1-26!).
>>
>> Schleicher cockpit ergonomics are wonderful. In the 20, the gear, flap
>> and=
>> spoiler handles are all on the left and use the same shape grip, but the
>> c=
>> ontrols feel and move in completely different ways. So when an accident
>> lik=
>> e this happens, suspicions tend toward pilot incapacitation as the root
>> cau=
>> se. The ASW-24 example shows that moving the gear handle to the right
>> side=
>> of the cockpit isn't a completely effective solution.
>>
>>> Back in my student days, some=20
>>> instructors told me to look at the spoilers=20
>>> on the downwind check. If you're moving=20
>>> the correct handle you will see them=20
>>> move.
>> We teach this. One part of the exercise is to discover what "1/2
>> spoilers"=
>> (determined by looking at the spoilers) requires in terms of control
>> posit=
>> ion and effort (varies by glider type). This thread illustrates another
>> re=
>> ason to do it.
>>
>> Evan Ludeman
>>

--
Dan, 5J

[BobW]

> We also had a gear up landing the day before that discussion. The pilot got
> low south of the field and was preparing to land on RWY 36. He got a small
> thermal which boosted him to 300' AGL and decided to extend to base for RWY
> 26. He told me he was thinking "Oh Boy! This is gonna be my best landing
> ever!", and then hearing a scraping sound...
>
>> I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
>> airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
>> performance!
>>
>> An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
>> handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
>> doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A bit like
>> tying a knot in your tie.

1) Every place at which I've ever taken instruction or "BFR" (a U.S. thing)
has taught the "visual spoiler check" as part of the pattern checklist, so I
kinda hoped it was "the standard" throughout the U.S. (a country of
unrepentant individualists). Evidently not?

2) Having heard it was possible (as in people had done it already) to confuse
handles (e.g. typically, gear for spoilers), I believed; the proposition
seemed plausible. Upon crossing over to the dark side of large-deflection
landing flaps instead of spoilers, I still believed it was plausible, but
another part of my brain simultaneously concluded it was unlikely, given the
"unmistakably differing" effects of flap vs. spoiler deployment. Nonetheless,
I seem to remember a retractable-gear 1-35 crunch that *may* have involved
handle confusion, despite the 1-35's "unmistakably/ergonomically conflicting"
flap/gear handles/actuation. If it happens it must be possible has long been
one of my personal maxims. :-)

3) The gear-up scenario above may well be THE number one reason for glider
gear-ups, i.e. focus on "something else" to the detriment of Joe Pilot's
routine procedures. The very first time I "stretched a glide" back to the
pattern in a retractable gear glider, about the time I concluded I was "good
for at least a straight-in" I also ran my pattern checklist (at ~300' agl).
Yup. I'd completely forgotten about the gear to that point. Talk about shock
and alarm!

Points being, those simple things your instructor (so it's hoped) taught you
about checklists and verifying one's actions, aren't only based on others'
prior mistakes, but they *work!*

Bob - no gear-ups or handle confusions yet - W.

[howard banks]

I flew that 20B for many years, as standard, as built for Waibel who did the test flight on it. Never saw the need for winglets or anything else ...it went like stink, frogless.
The handles all being on the left seemed to me to be a lot easier than having the gear handle on the right. One hand on the stick, one hand on the handles.
Only confusion I ever had was flying one task with the gear down the entire time. Radio was on the fritz so did not get calls from friendly pilots to check it. Finished task, pulled up into downwind and put gear "down" and it all went quiet. Foolish feeling, so replaced gear handle in correct down position and landed.
Everybody at Fairfield was very nice, little ribbing, some thank yous for giving them an added handicap.
h







On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 3:13:54 PM UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
> Saratoga NY, news report here
>
> http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s3911217.shtml?cat=10114&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[6PK]

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 4:51:53 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 6:39:53 AM UTC-7, Tim Hanke wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:45:48 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > > "Deputies say Szymanowski was coming in too fast. He tried landing twice, and on the third try, came up short."
> > >
> > > What?
> >
> > The pilot was flying an ASWW-19, which per my understanding has a gear handle located adjacent to the spoiler handle. Several witnesses on the ground watched the landing gear go up and down as the pilot over flew the entire length of the runway, turned around, and then overshoot the runway. Not sure if dehydration was an issue here? may never know? Thoughts and prayers with the pilot and his family.
>
> I doubt dehydration. More likely distraction followed by tunnel vision. unfortunately a common thing. Something distracted the pilot (such as another aircraft in the pattern) resulted on pulling on the wrong handle without noticing. Next come the tunnel vision where the pilot is convinced something is wrong with the spoilers and keep trying to deploy them.
> Same thing happened at Truckee few years ago and the pilot ended up at the bottom of the cliff after going the full length of the runway in each direction, luckily unhurt but glider destroyed.
>
> Ramy
I second tunnel vision. A dear friend did exactly that in a DG 300 about ten or so years ago. Gear handle just under the spoiler handle. Overshot a very long runway and fearing that he will hit the embankment at the end, put a wingtip into the ground, ground looping it, destroying the ship and hurting his back.
The moral of the story is that it too can happen to you. What came out of many hours of hanger talk and digesting this unfortunate incident; "look down at what handle you about to pull before actually pulling it".

[Mike the Strike]

Visually checking both spoilers as part of the pre-landing check was drilled into me when I was being trained in the 1980s and I have never landed a glider since then without doing this. The reason is not only to check that you have the proper handle but also that they deploy symmetrically. In unflapped ships, I was also taught to keep my hand on the dive brake lever until safely on the ground.

I have witnessed two cases of mistaken handles - one in which a flapped two-seater flew the entire length of the strip with its flaps waggling instead of dive brakes.

Mike

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

One day, a bit dehydrated, maybe not enough O2 I had a very difficult time deciding if the gear in my 24 was up or down. Could not quite read the sticker. I had over 100 hours in this glider and it is obvious, handle forward, gear down, handle back gear up. Nevertheless, I was not sure finally figured it out landed ok. So I have put a green paint dot on the gear down and locked and a red one on gear up position. This was the same fight I landed with a big head ache and forgot to dump water ballast, nor did I fly a faster pattern for the higher wing loading, could have been a real bad day! We all can have a bad day so I have tried to make the cockpit"stupid" friendlier. I also put a stinclied landing checklist on the panel. Stay safe out there and perhaps use this thread to reevaluate anything that can make your flying safer.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 12:15:54 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> So I have put a green paint dot on the gear down and locked and a red one on gear up position.

Wow - a simple, elegant addition. Think I'll do the same.

P3

[Dan Marotta]

A few years ago I had to do an 8-mile straight in approach in the rain
and against traffic. It's a completely different story of how I got
into that position. :-[ . Anyway, I called straight in from 5 miles and
announced that my gear would remain up due to my low energy state. I
continued making periodic calls with the gear statement and added that I
would lower the gear when I got over the pavement. Keeping the gear up
got me to the runway and making the calls reinforced the need to put it
down as soon as I crossed the threshold.

Still haven't scraped the belly and plan not to...

On 9/22/2015 8:05 AM, BobW wrote:
>> We also had a gear up landing the day before that discussion. The
>> pilot got
>> low south of the field and was preparing to land on RWY 36. He got a
>> small
>> thermal which boosted him to 300' AGL and decided to extend to base
>> for RWY
>> 26. He told me he was thinking "Oh Boy! This is gonna be my best
>> landing
>> ever!", and then hearing a scraping sound...
>>
>>> I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
>>> airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
>>> performance!
>>>
>>> An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
>>> handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
>>> doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A
>>> bit like
>>> tying a knot in your tie.
>
> 1) Every place at which I've ever taken instruction or "BFR" (a U.S.
> thing) has taught the "visual spoiler check" as part of the pattern
> checklist, so I kinda hoped it was "the standard" throughout the U.S.
> (a country of unrepentant individualists). Evidently not?
>
> 2) Having heard it was possible (as in people had done it already) to
> confuse handles (e.g. typically, gear for spoilers), I believed; the
> proposition seemed plausible. Upon crossing over to the dark side of
> large-deflection landing flaps instead of spoilers, I still believed
> it was plausible, but another part of my brain simultaneously
> concluded it was unlikely, given the "unmistakably differing" effects
> of flap vs. spoiler deployment. Nonetheless, I seem to remember a
> retractable-gear 1-35 crunch that *may* have involved handle
> confusion, despite the 1-35's "unmistakably/ergonomically conflicting"
> flap/gear handles/actuation. If it happens it must be possible has
> long been one of my personal maxims. :-)
>
> 3) The gear-up scenario above may well be THE number one reason for
> glider gear-ups, i.e. focus on "something else" to the detriment of
> Joe Pilot's routine procedures. The very first time I "stretched a
> glide" back to the pattern in a retractable gear glider, about the
> time I concluded I was "good for at least a straight-in" I also ran my
> pattern checklist (at ~300' agl). Yup. I'd completely forgotten about
> the gear to that point. Talk about shock and alarm!
>
> Points being, those simple things your instructor (so it's hoped)
> taught you about checklists and verifying one's actions, aren't only
> based on others' prior mistakes, but they *work!*
>
> Bob - no gear-ups or handle confusions yet - W.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

The green and red dots sound like a good trick. I'll check my supply of
paints.

BTW, in the LS-6 (and probably other LS gliders) the gear is pushed up
and pulled down. I thought that was pretty neat - all levers forward to
go fast, all back to slow down and land.

On 9/22/2015 10:15 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> One day, a bit dehydrated, maybe not enough O2 I had a very difficult time deciding if the gear in my 24 was up or down. Could not quite read the sticker. I had over 100 hours in this glider and it is obvious, handle forward, gear down, handle back gear up. Nevertheless, I was not sure finally figured it out landed ok. So I have put a green paint dot on the gear down and locked and a red one on gear up position. This was the same fight I landed with a big head ache and forgot to dump water ballast, nor did I fly a faster pattern for the higher wing loading, could have been a real bad day! We all can have a bad day so I have tried to make the cockpit"stupid" friendlier. I also put a stinclied landing checklist on the panel. Stay safe out there and perhaps use this thread to reevaluate anything that can make your flying safer.
>
> Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 12:15:54 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> One day, a bit dehydrated, maybe not enough O2 I had a very difficult time deciding if the gear in my 24 was up or down. Could not quite read the sticker. I had over 100 hours in this glider and it is obvious, handle forward, gear down, handle back gear up. Nevertheless, I was not sure finally figured it out landed ok. So I have put a green paint dot on the gear down and locked and a red one on gear up position. This was the same fight I landed with a big head ache and forgot to dump water ballast, nor did I fly a faster pattern for the higher wing loading, could have been a real bad day! We all can have a bad day so I have tried to make the cockpit"stupid" friendlier. I also put a stinclied landing checklist on the panel. Stay safe out there and perhaps use this thread to reevaluate anything that can make your flying safer.
>
> Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Colour vision is about the first to go when "maybe not enough O2" is a problem; depending on it may not be the best plan. The SSA sheet with the picture of a glider with gear up and down, to me is most obvious (though I have a decal with "UP" and "DOWN" as a secondary reminder.

[Benedict Smith]

At 17:36 22 September 2015, Dan Daly wrote:

>
>Colour vision is about the first to go when "maybe not enough O2" is a
>prob=
>lem; depending on it may not be the best plan. The SSA sheet with the
>pictu=
>re of a glider with gear up and down, to me is most obvious (though I
have
>=
>a decal with "UP" and "DOWN" as a secondary reminder.
>

Green arrow pointing UP and Red arrow pointing DOWN
Colour and shape.

[Greg Delp]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 2:00:14 PM UTC-4, Benedict Smith wrote:
> At 17:36 22 September 2015, Dan Daly wrote:
>
> >
> >Colour vision is about the first to go when "maybe not enough O2" is a
> >prob=
> >lem; depending on it may not be the best plan. The SSA sheet with the
> >pictu=
> >re of a glider with gear up and down, to me is most obvious (though I
> have
> >=
> >a decal with "UP" and "DOWN" as a secondary reminder.
> >
>
> Green arrow pointing UP and Red arrow pointing DOWN
> Colour and shape.

I'm confused already and I'm at sealevel and well hydrated.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 08:03:20 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Of the 5 gliders I've owned, only the ASW-19b had the gear handle on the
> left side. I never liked that and it's never been a problem changing
> hands on the stick to lower the gear with the other gliders.
>
As well as the ASW-20, the other common one with this arrangement is the
Pegase.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I did have the little symbol of glider with wheel down and up, while I have perfect distance vision and did not need reading glasses at that time, I could not quite make out which symbol was which. I do like the idea of a colored arrow, I will put that in my glider ( better than the red or green quarter sized paint dot). Also, a poster mentioned "unmistakable". I have experience in all aircraft except balloons, and I can tell you humility is a good quality. I have made the same mistake I have another pilot making, while wondering, how could any pilot make that mistake, question answered. Our sport is not very forgiving, so stack the odds in your favor. I now fly with a finger tip oyxgen meter. Take great pains to stay well hydrated before and during the fight. I go on o2 at 10,000 as I live at sea level. Will this keep me from screwing up? I really try to keep thinking and checking my thought process, but I have learned we can screw up and hopefully muscle memory will not fail us. Stay my fellow pilots!

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 2:57:14 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> I did have the little symbol of glider with wheel down and up, while I have perfect distance vision and did not need reading glasses at that time, I could not quite make out which symbol was which.

I have the official symbols as well. But it's not immediately obvious without a pretty careful look which picture shows the wheel down. I really like the idea of supplemental Green/Red arrows.

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 2:13:04 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 2:57:14 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > I did have the little symbol of glider with wheel down and up, while I have perfect distance vision and did not need reading glasses at that time, I could not quite make out which symbol was which.
>
> I have the official symbols as well. But it's not immediately obvious without a pretty careful look which picture shows the wheel down. I really like the idea of supplemental Green/Red arrows.

Label maker: Big font "UP" and "DOWN" in the appropriate place. Easy to read, no thinking "what does green mean?" required.

Like Dan, I like the LS solution better.

As a side note - I raise the gear at 500' agl on tow (nose hook), to prevent forgetting it after release in the rush to find a thermal, etc. I also tow in thermalling flaps (+5), so when I release in lift there is nothing to do but climb...

And my landing checklist is short: Wind (direction for pattern), Water (ballast gone or fly faster), Wheel (down and locked).

Kirk
66

[Steve Koerner]

Green vs Red, Up vs Down; both do seem like extremely simple matters to interpret into a correct action of the control. And for most of us they almost always would be. Problems can arise when the landing has issues such that the pilot becomes 99.9% focused on people walking across the runway, strong crosswinds, low altitude or any of a number of other special circumstances or combinations of distractions. The remaining 0.1% mental processing power that's reserved for matters of routine may be less than sufficient to correctly establish where the landing gear control should be set.

A better way, I think, is to provide yourself with checklist instruction requiring no interpretation whatsoever: Ballast Lever Forward; Landing Gear Forward.

This still leaves the crucial problem of getting onto the right control. But, at least, there is no processing required to get the sense correct.

[George Haeh]

In my glider the gear up position is
marked with hot pink duct tape as well as
the landing flap position and the spoiler
and gear handles as additional reminders
to check the gear.

There's a 4x4" green vinyl square at the
gear down position.

The gear handle is tucked down by my
thigh when up. It's now easy to see it's
down.

The LS gear is even better as it will shred
your knuckles if you pull spoilers with the
gear up.

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

It was reported that the pilot tried to make 3 landing attempts..........where did he get the energy to do that? More likely he hade a high-speed low pass, then pulled up, turned around and grabbed the wrong lever (gear handle instead of spoilers) flew the entire length of the runway wondering why the ship wasn't descending, then tried to turn around a second time and probably entered a stall-spin scenario as evidenced by the crumpled mess shown in the photo.
There is something missing here,
JJ

[3j]

>The LS gear is even better as it will shred
>your knuckles if you pull spoilers with the
>gear up.
>
>

I believe that this is true for the LS4, LS4a and LS4b only.

Jim

[son_of_flubber]

A few people have mentioned 'tunnel vision'.

I've heard of 'tunnel vision' associated with hypoxia, and also with the 'fight or flight adrenaline response' where vision is literally narrowed to the center of the visual field. Tunnel vision is like you're looking through a tube. The field of vision is narrowed to a few degrees.

But in this case, are people actually suggesting 'mental fixation' where the mind is unable to switch to an alternate course of action or alternate explanation for what is happening? For example, pilot becomes fixated on the idea that the spoilers are malfunctioning and fails to realize that he is holding the gear lever? This metaphoric, but not literal 'tunnel vision'.

My reason for asking is that I'm wondering whether 'mental fixation' is more likely during the 'fight or flight adrenaline response'? Is there any training or habits of mind that will reduce the tendency to mental fixation. Is a tendency to 'mentally fixate' a part of the normal aging process? Does fatigue increase the tendency to mentally fixate?

These questions have general medical/technical answers, but it would be useful hear anecdotes of how individuals have been tripped up by mental fixation in the context of soaring. I'd like to think about how I might find myself fixating while piloting and how I might spot that when it is happening and 'snap out of it'. Knowing about the case of 'grabbing the gear handle and thinking it is the spoiler handle' might pop into my mind if I'm ever in that situation. It would be useful to know of other common cases of fixation in piloting gliders.

[BG[_4_]]

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 2:13:54 PM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
> Saratoga NY, news report here
>
> http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s3911217.shtml?cat=10114&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

The same thing could happen in a Blanik, except it was the flaps and the spoilers that could be confused. I witnessed two crashes in a blanik, one ended in a ground loop just before a barbed wire fence at El Tiro, and another landed off the end of the runway in the sage brush at AirSailing. Call it tunnel vision or in full panic mode, the pilot kept pulling harder on the flaps as the runway was passing underneath getting shorter all the time.

BG

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I fresh idea. I shall paint a half dollar size green dot in the wheel down and locked position and a red square in the wheel retracted position. Less confusing than arrows or just color, square does not roll.

It was not until my most recent BFR that the instructor was requiring a visual check of the airbrakes and also required the airbrakes to be check full open as he explained there have been several incidents where the airbrakes became locked in the full up position. So now I check the airbrakes in the fully deployed position where if they became locked in the full up I could still make some type of pattern to land. I also added a tubular gauze to the airbrake handle to change the tactile feel from the flaps.

[Surge]

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 08:14:15 UTC+2, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> I fresh idea. I shall paint a half dollar size green dot in the wheel down and locked position and a red square in the wheel retracted position. Less confusing than arrows or just color, square does not roll.

What happens when you forget what a square shape represents during the heat of the moment or someone else flies your glider?

The words UP and DOWN (or EXTENDED and RETRACTED) cannot be confused and since language is usually one of the last things one loses when your brain starts failing, it's probably the safest bet.
If my brain can't interpret UP/DOWN then in all likely hood I've already lost all my motor skills and a crash is inevitable.

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

At 07:19 23 September 2015, Surge wrote:
>On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 08:14:15 UTC+2, Jonathan St. Cloud
wrote:
>> I fresh idea. I shall paint a half dollar size green dot in the wheel
>down and locked position and a red square in the wheel retracted position.

>Less confusing than arrows or just color, square does not roll.
>
>What happens when you forget what a square shape represents during the
heat
>of the moment or someone else flies your glider?
>
>The words UP and DOWN (or EXTENDED and RETRACTED) cannot be
confused and
>since language is usually one of the last things one loses when your
brain
>starts failing, it's probably the safest bet.
>If my brain can't interpret UP/DOWN then in all likely hood I've already
>lost all my motor skills and a crash is inevitable.
>

Gear up or down should not be a real problem if you are landing on grass
and
it is locked in either position you won't hurt yourself .
The problem is when you pick the wrong lever and don't realise .
It's the not realising that is the real problem,there are lots of ways to
get it
wrong ,in my case release instead of decompression on the turbo or flaps
,or
wrong knob on the radio .As long as you realise and sort t out its ok the
tunnel vision is the real hazard .
My sincere commiserations to the pilot involved ,I am sure he will be
beating
himself up when he gets a bit better ,but all any one can do is hope every

one else learns from his accident and we don't have to keep repeating it.

[[email protected]]

My training was the USTALL checklist and once you've visually checked the spoilers don't take your hand off the handle. I'd like to think that I always do it that way. I'd also like to think that I've never started a take-off roll with the spoilers unlocked but I know I have. Also, as an ASW 15 driver, I find it difficult to imagine confusing the spoiler and gear handles. But, like I just said, I also find it difficult to believe that I would start a take off roll with spoilers unlocked.

[Dan Marotta]

Memory fades but I seem to recall the Blanik's (L-13) brake being a
lever on the floor. I don't remember how the L-23 brake worked.

On 9/23/2015 12:03 AM, BG wrote:
> On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 2:13:54 PM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
>> Saratoga NY, news report here
>>
>> http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s3911217.shtml?cat=10114&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
> The same thing could happen in a Blanik, except it was the flaps and the spoilers that could be confused. I witnessed two crashes in a blanik, one ended in a ground loop just before a barbed wire fence at El Tiro, and another landed off the end of the runway in the sage brush at AirSailing. Call it tunnel vision or in full panic mode, the pilot kept pulling harder on the flaps as the runway was passing underneath getting shorter all the time.
>
> BG

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

And, I think, the '3 and '3a.

On 9/22/2015 7:28 PM, 3j wrote:
>> The LS gear is even better as it will shred
>> your knuckles if you pull spoilers with the
>> gear up.
>>
>>
> I believe that this is true for the LS4, LS4a and LS4b only.
>
> Jim
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

You are correct.

Before ever flying as PIC in a military aircraft, I and my
contemporaries were subjected to a blindfold cockpit check. It was
mandatory to know where every control and switch was located without
looking. Grabbing the wrong handle is, in my opinion, simply evidence
of poor knowledge of the aircraft.

In gliders there's no doubt that the aircraft will land (no go-around)
and the pilot needs to be comfortable with that and not get fixated on
why it won't land where he expects it to. Know where the controls are
and when and how to use them. Have no doubts and you won't have
difficulty. You may not land where you want, but you WILL land.

On 9/22/2015 9:39 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> A few people have mentioned 'tunnel vision'.
>
> I've heard of 'tunnel vision' associated with hypoxia, and also with the 'fight or flight adrenaline response' where vision is literally narrowed to the center of the visual field. Tunnel vision is like you're looking through a tube. The field of vision is narrowed to a few degrees.
>
> But in this case, are people actually suggesting 'mental fixation' where the mind is unable to switch to an alternate course of action or alternate explanation for what is happening? For example, pilot becomes fixated on the idea that the spoilers are malfunctioning and fails to realize that he is holding the gear lever? This metaphoric, but not literal 'tunnel vision'.
>
> My reason for asking is that I'm wondering whether 'mental fixation' is more likely during the 'fight or flight adrenaline response'? Is there any training or habits of mind that will reduce the tendency to mental fixation. Is a tendency to 'mentally fixate' a part of the normal aging process? Does fatigue increase the tendency to mentally fixate?
>
> These questions have general medical/technical answers, but it would be useful hear anecdotes of how individuals have been tripped up by mental fixation in the context of soaring. I'd like to think about how I might find myself fixating while piloting and how I might spot that when it is happening and 'snap out of it'. Knowing about the case of 'grabbing the gear handle and thinking it is the spoiler handle' might pop into my mind if I'm ever in that situation. It would be useful to know of other common cases of fixation in piloting gliders.
>
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Matt Herron Jr.]

I would think someone would switch to a sideslip if they perceived the spoilers not to be working. Might end up scraping the belly anyway, but thats better than a fence at the end of the runway...

Matt H

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Round means roll, square doesn't roll. The space for a marking is limited hense a symbol. Anyway this is how I will change my glider. I never did figure out why I had such a bad day, but I assume somehow I was not getting O2 flow. I had a terrible headache. Checked the O2 system after I landed, realizing how many mistakes I made, and all was working. Flew the next day no problem. It was this same day that I had the wrong airport set for my final glide and even when I could see the airport I was aiming for way below me and my computer was telling me I was below final glide, I believed the computer until I had to decent for 4,000 AGL to land. Never had a stupid day in anything else I flew, but this was enough to get my attention and to constantly look for ways to improve my glider and anything that will make it safer.


On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 12:19:48 AM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 08:14:15 UTC+2, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > I fresh idea. I shall paint a half dollar size green dot in the wheel down and locked position and a red square in the wheel retracted position. Less confusing than arrows or just color, square does not roll.
>
> What happens when you forget what a square shape represents during the heat of the moment or someone else flies your glider?
>
> The words UP and DOWN (or EXTENDED and RETRACTED) cannot be confused and since language is usually one of the last things one loses when your brain starts failing, it's probably the safest bet.
> If my brain can't interpret UP/DOWN then in all likely hood I've already lost all my motor skills and a crash is inevitable.

[Fred Bear]

On 9/23/2015 08:29, wrote:
> My training was the USTALL checklist and once you've visually checked the spoilers don't take your hand off the handle. I'd like to think that I always do it that way. I'd also like to think that I've never started a take-off roll with the spoilers unlocked but I know I have. Also, as an ASW 15 driver, I find it difficult to imagine confusing the spoiler and gear handles. But, like I just said, I also find it difficult to believe that I would start a take off roll with spoilers unlocked.
>

As was mine and the method was the same.

Pre-launch checklist was CBSIFTCB - with the final B being brakes:closed
and locked.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 11:36:39 AM UTC-5, Fred Bear wrote:

> As was mine and the method was the same.
>
> Pre-launch checklist was CBSIFTCB - with the final B being brakes:closed
> and locked.

I also use CBSIFTCB in preference to the Schweizer-specific(?)US-common ABCCCDE (or whatever it is these days ;^)

Once on a race grid launch (i.e. hectic & rushed) in an LS4, I had the spoilers open for roll control, and just when the tug started moving, the wing runner yelled something at me (turns out it was "YOUR SPOILERS ARE OPEN!"). But hearing something yelled in my direction at the start of a takeoff roll got my attention; and I was airborne (still with the spoilers out) before I figured out that there was nothing wrong - except for me forgetting to close the spoilers during the takeoff roll as planned - due to the distraction!

Kirk
66

[CindyB[_2_]]

A mutual friend (thanks, Peter) mentions the DG-300 gear-instead-of-spoilers handle mishap....due to wrong-handle grabbing. There is a great write up in SOARING as a recap of that event. June 2006, Is Conservative Safe? and then July 2006, 525 Extremely Dangerous Flights.

The article(s)address several items that precipitated/contributed to that event: 1) complacence in a 'normal' landing, 2) abrupt choice to alter the approach to practice another technique mid-pattern; 3) failure to look for spoiler extension after acknowledging "this isn't decelerating the way I want", 4) I won't stop on the airport, so I should use an outside-premises-alternative,ie. never thinking that the take-off emergency place could be used in a landing situation.

Jim Skydell would be pleased to know that we are still using his recap of his aircraft loss to add to knowledge and perhaps prevent another repetition.. The big thing?? Seek training that allows you more flexibility in experiences.
Jim comments on the perception of fixation.

The nominal training in emergency procedures in (American) soaring is the source of our accident rate. Being an 'easy' solo or rating sign-off or less than rigorous in flight reviews might get more folks launched.... but it is the landings that are doing the damage. The failed landings.

It can happen to any of us.
Help each other improve. The discussions here are valuable. They urge us to review our own protocols and perhaps review our actions and procedures.

Fly safely, train often.
Cindy

[Kerry Kirby]

On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Memory fades but I seem to recall the Blanik's (L-13) brake being a
> lever on the floor.* I don't remember how the L-23 brake worked.
>
>
>
>
> On 9/23/2015 12:03 AM, BG wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 2:13:54 PM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
>
>
> Saratoga NY, news report here
>
> http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s3911217.shtml?cat=10114&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
>
>
> The same thing could happen in a Blanik, except it was the flaps and the spoilers that could be confused. I witnessed two crashes in a blanik, one ended in a ground loop just before a barbed wire fence at El Tiro, and another landed off the end of the runway in the sage brush at AirSailing. Call it tunnel vision or in full panic mode, the pilot kept pulling harder on the flaps as the runway was passing underneath getting shorter all the time.
>
> BG
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J



On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Memory fades but I seem to recall the Blanik's (L-13) brake being a
> lever on the floor.* I don't remember how the L-23 brake worked.
>

Yes it was on the floor in the L13. About the same spot as the door handle on a 1974 Chevy Nova. On my first year of gliding i spent most of my days reliving the previous weekends flights. I was daydreaming about this while driving one day and needed to slow down for an upcoming turn. I pulled up on the door handle to break. Luckily it was a left hand turn!
Kerry

[[email protected]]

I am sorry to say I happened to confuse diverse levers in diverse types of gliders in the past.
* I once pulled back on the release lever (it's not a knob, it really looks like an airbrake lever) instead of opening the spoilers in a Rhönlerche;
* I did the same with the flaps instead of the airbrakes in a L-13 Blanik;
* I put the flaps from positive to negative instead of closing the airbrakes on a Janus during finals when the airspeed became too low (that one allmost crashed the glider, I corrected my mistake at the very last moment; the situation arose while my pupil in front was making an approach with braking parachute, full positive flaps and full airbrakes, and was slow in closing the airbrakes when I asked him to do so to maintain airspeed - of course, I should have had the left hand on one of the levers, but I wasn't ready, being too confident in the abilities of my pupil).

The levers I wrongly used had a common characteristic: they were the upper, what you could call the "most obvious", lever. When under stress, that's where your hand is going automatically.

I really think, from a safety point of view, that the "most critical" lever should also be the "most obvious" lever. In my book, that's the airbrake lever. I don't like the ergonomics of the levers you have to rotate to be able to use.

[Justin Craig[_3_]]

Having spent a season flying my father’s 27, I flew my Standard Cirrus
(of which I have about 600 hours in) for the first time in a while.

Climbing out of a racing finish at close to VNE I instinctively went to
gently move the flap leaver back…..opening your airbrakes at VNE low down
focussed the mind somewhat. Not something I wish to do again!!

[Dan Marotta]

Flap levers need detents of some kind so you can set different positions
and take your hand off the lever. In my LAK-17a, the flap and gear
levers must be rotated to move the lock out of the slot to move the
lever. The dive brake lever does not need to be rotated, however you
might scrape your knuckles by simply pulling it back. Rotating the dive
brake lever gets my knuckles away from the canopy side wall. MY flap
lever is at the top because I use it most often and that's where I like
it. Others may prefer other configurations.

Cheers!

On 9/25/2015 7:24 AM, wrote:
> I am sorry to say I happened to confuse diverse levers in diverse types of gliders in the past.
> * I once pulled back on the release lever (it's not a knob, it really looks like an airbrake lever) instead of opening the spoilers in a Rhönlerche;
> * I did the same with the flaps instead of the airbrakes in a L-13 Blanik;
> * I put the flaps from positive to negative instead of closing the airbrakes on a Janus during finals when the airspeed became too low (that one allmost crashed the glider, I corrected my mistake at the very last moment; the situation arose while my pupil in front was making an approach with braking parachute, full positive flaps and full airbrakes, and was slow in closing the airbrakes when I asked him to do so to maintain airspeed - of course, I should have had the left hand on one of the levers, but I wasn't ready, being too confident in the abilities of my pupil).
>
> The levers I wrongly used had a common characteristic: they were the upper, what you could call the "most obvious", lever. When under stress, that's where your hand is going automatically.
>
> I really think, from a safety point of view, that the "most critical" lever should also be the "most obvious" lever. In my book, that's the airbrake lever. I don't like the ergonomics of the levers you have to rotate to be able to use.

--
Dan, 5J

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

The only thing I like in Schempp-Hirth ergonomics is the flap position lever, (just make sure you have installed a metal backing) as the composite will only work for so long until the flap handle goes negative on you while on short final, a real thrill. The flap handle is low on the cockpit sidewall so you can rest your hand on the arm rest. I always thought the other manufacturers should use this set up. Different strokes for different folks.


On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 8:39:06 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Flap levers need detents of some kind so you can set different
> positions and take your hand off the lever.* In my LAK-17a, the flap
> and gear levers must be rotated to move the lock out of the slot to
> move the lever.* The dive brake lever does not need to be rotated,
> however you might scrape your knuckles by simply pulling it back.*
> Rotating the dive brake lever gets my knuckles away from the canopy
> side wall.* MY flap lever is at the top because I use it most often
> and that's where I like it.* Others may prefer other configurations..
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
>
> On 9/25/2015 7:24 AM,
> wrote:
>
>
>
> I am sorry to say I happened to confuse diverse levers in diverse types of gliders in the past.
> * I once pulled back on the release lever (it's not a knob, it really looks like an airbrake lever) instead of opening the spoilers in a Rhönlerche;
> * I did the same with the flaps instead of the airbrakes in a L-13 Blanik;
> * I put the flaps from positive to negative instead of closing the airbrakes on a Janus during finals when the airspeed became too low (that one allmost crashed the glider, I corrected my mistake at the very last moment; the situation arose while my pupil in front was making an approach with braking parachute, full positive flaps and full airbrakes, and was slow in closing the airbrakes when I asked him to do so to maintain airspeed - of course, I should have had the left hand on one of the levers, but I wasn't ready, being too confident in the abilities of my pupil).
>
> The levers I wrongly used had a common characteristic: they were the upper, what you could call the "most obvious", lever. When under stress, that's where your hand is going automatically.
>
> I really think, from a safety point of view, that the "most critical" lever should also be the "most obvious" lever. In my book, that's the airbrake lever. I don't like the ergonomics of the levers you have to rotate to be able to use.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

[Martin Eiler[_3_]]

>> I really think, from a safety point of view, that the "most critical"
>lever should also be the "most obvious" lever. In my book, that's the
>airbrake lever. I don't like the ergonomics of the levers you have to
>rotate to be able to use.
>Dan, 5J

Once while still on the ground and towing with a 182 I had a Janus A get
high and off to my left. He was high enough that I could not see his wings
in the mirror. There still being enough runway ahead for him to safely
land, I released the glider and the pilot safely landed in the dirt to the
left of the runway. When I got back on the ground and spoke with the
pilot. He admitted that he had taken off in negative flaps with his left
hand off of the flap handle then when he reached to go positive with the
flaps he mistakenly grabbed the spoiler handle. He said the glider didn't
feel normal but he was confused and didn't know what was wrong. As happens
far too often the pilot was tunnel visioned to the degree that he was
incapable of figuring out what was wrong and correcting it. An additional
disappointing aspect was the fact that his front seat passenger, who was
also a pilot saw what he was doing wrong but made no attempt to tell the
other pilot. In airline terms this is called a failure of cockpit resource
management.

This thread was initiated because a simple mistake that could easily have
been corrected, eventually led to a crash. The real cause of this accident
like so many others, was tunnel vision. Which may have started sometime
prior to the pilot mistakenly grabbing the gear handle. Rest assured this
pilot did not intend to grab the gear handle nor make multiple passes at
landing and of course he did not realize he was getting so slow that he was
going to stall/spin.

Until someone in higher authority like the NTSB or FAA decides that tunnel
vision is a root cause of far too many aviation accidents and initiates an
extensive study of it's causes, effects and all possible corrective
actions.
We will continue to hear accidents were the result of dehydration,
distraction, medical issue or the catch all, pilot error. I would like to
believe a meaningful study will be conducted in my life time, but after 50
years in aviation I seriously doubt it.

If I am ever killed in a glider accident, I honestly encourage all pilots
to use it as an opportunity to openly and seriously discuss accidents and
issues of safety. A year later when the NTSB report is published the
accident will have long faded from almost everyone's memory.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I went back and read the two articles Cindy mentioned, good stuff! While we might all think we would never make such a mistake, real world has shown anyone can screw up at anytime. So, keep up the training, be challenged and never stop thinking.

Fly safe guys!


On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 6:41:10 PM UTC-7, CindyB wrote:
> A mutual friend (thanks, Peter) mentions the DG-300 gear-instead-of-spoilers handle mishap....due to wrong-handle grabbing. There is a great write up in SOARING as a recap of that event. June 2006, Is Conservative Safe? and then July 2006, 525 Extremely Dangerous Flights.
>
> The article(s)address several items that precipitated/contributed to that event: 1) complacence in a 'normal' landing, 2) abrupt choice to alter the approach to practice another technique mid-pattern; 3) failure to look for spoiler extension after acknowledging "this isn't decelerating the way I want", 4) I won't stop on the airport, so I should use an outside-premises-alternative,ie. never thinking that the take-off emergency place could be used in a landing situation.
>
> Jim Skydell would be pleased to know that we are still using his recap of his aircraft loss to add to knowledge and perhaps prevent another repetition. The big thing?? Seek training that allows you more flexibility in experiences.
> Jim comments on the perception of fixation.
>
> The nominal training in emergency procedures in (American) soaring is the source of our accident rate. Being an 'easy' solo or rating sign-off or less than rigorous in flight reviews might get more folks launched.... but it is the landings that are doing the damage. The failed landings.
>
> It can happen to any of us.
> Help each other improve. The discussions here are valuable. They urge us to review our own protocols and perhaps review our actions and procedures..
>
> Fly safely, train often.
> Cindy

[[email protected]]

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 7:45:05 PM UTC+1, Martin Eiler wrote:
> >> I really think, from a safety point of view, that the "most critical"
> >lever should also be the "most obvious" lever. In my book, that's the
> >airbrake lever. I don't like the ergonomics of the levers you have to
> >rotate to be able to use.
> >Dan, 5J
>
> Once while still on the ground and towing with a 182 I had a Janus A get
> high and off to my left. He was high enough that I could not see his wings
> in the mirror. There still being enough runway ahead for him to safely
> land, I released the glider and the pilot safely landed in the dirt to the
> left of the runway. When I got back on the ground and spoke with the
> pilot. He admitted that he had taken off in negative flaps with his left
> hand off of the flap handle then when he reached to go positive with the
> flaps he mistakenly grabbed the spoiler handle. He said the glider didn't
> feel normal but he was confused and didn't know what was wrong. As happens
> far too often the pilot was tunnel visioned to the degree that he was
> incapable of figuring out what was wrong and correcting it. An additional
> disappointing aspect was the fact that his front seat passenger, who was
> also a pilot saw what he was doing wrong but made no attempt to tell the
> other pilot. In airline terms this is called a failure of cockpit resource
> management.
>
> This thread was initiated because a simple mistake that could easily have
> been corrected, eventually led to a crash. The real cause of this accident
> like so many others, was tunnel vision. Which may have started sometime
> prior to the pilot mistakenly grabbing the gear handle. Rest assured this
> pilot did not intend to grab the gear handle nor make multiple passes at
> landing and of course he did not realize he was getting so slow that he was
> going to stall/spin.
>
> Until someone in higher authority like the NTSB or FAA decides that tunnel
> vision is a root cause of far too many aviation accidents and initiates an
> extensive study of it's causes, effects and all possible corrective
> actions.
> We will continue to hear accidents were the result of dehydration,
> distraction, medical issue or the catch all, pilot error. I would like to
> believe a meaningful study will be conducted in my life time, but after 50
> years in aviation I seriously doubt it.
>
> If I am ever killed in a glider accident, I honestly encourage all pilots
> to use it as an opportunity to openly and seriously discuss accidents and
> issues of safety. A year later when the NTSB report is published the
> accident will have long faded from almost everyone's memory.

As an alternative description to "tunnel vision" I like the concept of the decision tree. We continually have choices (eg which lever to grab and then whether or not to do it without visually checking) and make a decision which may be wrong through carelessness or poor judgement. At that point we have taken one of two or more branches of the decision tree. If things don't work out as expected we may make another choice (e.g. start using the pitch control) and then find that control isn't responding as usual - so we make another decision that may help or may not help (e.g. choose to release or not release from tow) etc. etc.

The one thing we are demonstrably poor at in times of stress is mentally backing our way down the decision tree and considering at which step we may have made a wrong decision upon which all the other wrong decisions followed..

Tunnel vision on its own is a description that doesn't (for me) naturally lead to a mental process to correct things whereas if we hold the concept of the decision tree in the front of our mind then it gives us an easily understood mental technique that we can apply to very quickly reverse check our recent actions (and so escape the tunnel vision).

Unfortunately not all decisions are reversible once taken.

John Galloway

[BobW]

On 9/25/2015 12:44 PM, Martin Eiler wrote:
<Snip...>
> This thread was initiated because a simple mistake that could easily have
> been corrected, eventually led to a crash. The real cause of this accident
> like so many others, was tunnel vision. Which may have started sometime
> prior to the pilot mistakenly grabbing the gear handle. Rest assured this
> pilot did not intend to grab the gear handle nor make multiple passes at
> landing and of course he did not realize he was getting so slow that he was
> going to stall/spin.
>
> Until someone in higher authority like the NTSB or FAA decides that tunnel
> vision is a root cause of far too many aviation accidents and initiates an
> extensive study of it's causes, effects and all possible corrective
> actions, we will continue to hear accidents were the result of dehydration,
> distraction, medical issue or the catch all, pilot error. I would like to
> believe a meaningful study will be conducted in my life time, but after 50
> years in aviation I seriously doubt it.
>
> If I am ever killed in a glider accident, I honestly encourage all pilots
> to use it as an opportunity to openly and seriously discuss accidents and
> issues of safety. A year later when the NTSB report is published the
> accident will have long faded from almost everyone's memory.

Considerable food for thought above...

I suspect the 1st paragraph is 100% correct. In any event the logic works for me.

Considering the middle paragraph, I likewise suspect "pilot error" will
continue to be a favored root cause catch-all in accidents involving
less-than-perfect situational-awareness/decision-making from Joe Pilot. I
don't think it's fundamentally inaccurate, but it's often not terribly
illuminating of how people (are likely to) think, and consequently WHY J.P.
had/continued-with less-than-perfect situational-awareness/decision-making all
the way to the crunch. Consequently, it's up to us individual pilots to make
these "WHY-connections" as they apply to *us*. Routinely blaming (say) medical
incapacitation or bad luck may be personally comforting, while being
simultaneously a form of ostrichian thinking. You pays your money and you
takes your chances...

+1 to the sentiments of last paragraph. I'll add - for the benefit of readers
unfamiliar with the NTSB's typical glider crunch depth of analysis - that the
NTSB glider-crunch-analytical-norm is *generally* (not always) superficial and
typically unenlightening.

Bob W.

[Bob Pasker]

When I have transitioned from an aircraft that has wheelbrakes on the spoiler handle, to the L-23, which has a separate wheelbrake handle under the seat, I have landed and wondered why the brakes don't work.

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 10:21:38 AM UTC-4, Steve Leonard wrote:
> Thanks for the added info, Tim.
>
> I use to have little sympathy for those who grabbed the wrong handle and did not notice. Until I did it myself. Thoughts and prayers for the pilot, his family, partners, and all involved.
>
> Steve Leonard

[Paul Agnew]

Squares...circles...UP...Down...green and red arrows...

How about a big red dollar sign and a big green checkmark?
;-)

Seriously, whatever jogs your memory and is easy for you to interpret should be just fine.

[[email protected]]

I've gotten into the habit of banging on the LS3 gear lever with my fist as part of my landing routine. You really can bang on it when it is up, so its a physical feedback check. I also painted red and green dots on it. But fist banging is better.

Roberto

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 3:13:54 PM UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
> Saratoga NY, news report here
>
> http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s3911217.shtml?cat=10114&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I've gotten into the habit of banging on the LS3 gear lever with my fist as part of my landing routine. You really can't bang on it when it is up, so its a physical feedback check. I also painted red and green dots on it. But for me, fist banging is a better confirmation. Plus it has the benefit of perhaps kicking it over center.

Roberto

Roberto