How would YOU design an international soaring center?

[[email protected]]

Soaring pilots have a rare opportunity in the coming years to create an international soaring facility in a place with great soaring conditions. If you were doing this, what would you include, what would you design into it, what considerations would be important as the facility comes together?

Let me explain.

The county commissioners and airport management at the Minden-Tahoe Airport committed two years ago to creating a general aviation opportunity with strong support for soaring on the east side of our airport. This came after many years of lobbying by soaring pilots for recognition of the unique soaring resources available here: superb wave and thermal conditions and occasional ridge flying from an airport that is friendly to us and our activities.. A look at US flights registered on the OLC in any given year demonstrates just how good we have it here, and we'd like to create an international soaring center so pilots from all over can take part in our great soaring.

Who are we? Three years ago several like-minded pilots created the Sports Aviation Foundation <www.sportsaviationfoundation.com> with the idea of finding funds and building an aviation facility that would be on the opposite side of the airport from heavier traffic and would prominently feature an international soaring facility. We recognized that regular crossing of the main runway with golf carts towing gliders can become a safety issue. We will not exclude general aviation, but the jets that visit Minden fairly regularly will be separated on the west side of the airport while we operate from the east side. There are nay-sayers who believe jets will take over this airport, but in the ten years I've lived here we have seen no appreciable uptick in jet operations -- the economic demand is just not there.

So we have a foundation that can guide the development of an international soaring center, we have land dedicated to creation of a general aviation facility that will be glider-friendly, and we have received 501(c)(3) status from federal (IRS) and state authorities. Airport management has brought in utilities and is now planning tarmac upgrades, some of which will be very helpful to glider pilots in strong cross-wind conditions.

And we - the Sports Aviation Foundation - are looking for suggestions and ideas. How many times have you said to yourself "I wish they had thought of gliders when they designed this airport?" Well this is your opportunity. We have a clean slate, and we want to make sure to include all the good ideas we can for designing a facility that will be used heavily by gliders.

Some of the ideas you will suggest are already on our "must-do" list, but what we'd like to avoid is getting to a certain point in the design and thinking "oh darn, why didn't we think of that?"

So this is an invitation to glider pilots everywhere to say "hey, don't forget to include a family-friendly campground," or "where are the water points for ballasting during international competitions?" or "how about drive-through parking for glider trailers?"

I recognize that this might be an invitation for some snarky replies, but it's also an invitation for getting in on the ground floor of a design and building process. And even coming to be a part of this exciting process if you have a mind to relocate to Minden eventually and share our outstanding soaring. How would YOU design an international soaring center?

[gb]

Real bathrooms/showers and a plan to keep them clean. Kitchen, so pilots aren't beholden to eating out. Laundry machines, coin op is fine. And of course a bar/restaurant/clubhouse with a view of operations/sky. Of course an underground parking lot for ugly trailers(kidding.) Keeping bathrooms and a kitchen clean and functional is a challenge but do that and people will put up with most anything else. Don't know what the demand will be for RV hook ups, and cabins/bunk rooms. Hobby widows are entertained by semi permanent RV/camping spots, playing house for grown ups. Dunno how many pilots go for casino rooms. Providing maintenance/repair space/tools/power might be nice but could be a downside.
On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 12:31:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Soaring pilots have a rare opportunity in the coming years to create an international soaring facility in a place with great soaring conditions. If you were doing this, what would you include, what would you design into it, what considerations would be important as the facility comes together?
>
> Let me explain.
>
> The county commissioners and airport management at the Minden-Tahoe Airport committed two years ago to creating a general aviation opportunity with strong support for soaring on the east side of our airport. This came after many years of lobbying by soaring pilots for recognition of the unique soaring resources available here: superb wave and thermal conditions and occasional ridge flying from an airport that is friendly to us and our activities. A look at US flights registered on the OLC in any given year demonstrates just how good we have it here, and we'd like to create an international soaring center so pilots from all over can take part in our great soaring.
>
> Who are we? Three years ago several like-minded pilots created the Sports Aviation Foundation <www.sportsaviationfoundation.com> with the idea of finding funds and building an aviation facility that would be on the opposite side of the airport from heavier traffic and would prominently feature an international soaring facility. We recognized that regular crossing of the main runway with golf carts towing gliders can become a safety issue. We will not exclude general aviation, but the jets that visit Minden fairly regularly will be separated on the west side of the airport while we operate from the east side. There are nay-sayers who believe jets will take over this airport, but in the ten years I've lived here we have seen no appreciable uptick in jet operations -- the economic demand is just not there.
>
> So we have a foundation that can guide the development of an international soaring center, we have land dedicated to creation of a general aviation facility that will be glider-friendly, and we have received 501(c)(3) status from federal (IRS) and state authorities. Airport management has brought in utilities and is now planning tarmac upgrades, some of which will be very helpful to glider pilots in strong cross-wind conditions.
>
> And we - the Sports Aviation Foundation - are looking for suggestions and ideas. How many times have you said to yourself "I wish they had thought of gliders when they designed this airport?" Well this is your opportunity.. We have a clean slate, and we want to make sure to include all the good ideas we can for designing a facility that will be used heavily by gliders.
>
> Some of the ideas you will suggest are already on our "must-do" list, but what we'd like to avoid is getting to a certain point in the design and thinking "oh darn, why didn't we think of that?"
>
> So this is an invitation to glider pilots everywhere to say "hey, don't forget to include a family-friendly campground," or "where are the water points for ballasting during international competitions?" or "how about drive-through parking for glider trailers?"
>
> I recognize that this might be an invitation for some snarky replies, but it's also an invitation for getting in on the ground floor of a design and building process. And even coming to be a part of this exciting process if you have a mind to relocate to Minden eventually and share our outstanding soaring. How would YOU design an international soaring center?

[Loye Hilton[_2_]]

At 17:13 29 September 2015, GB wrote:
>Real bathrooms/showers and a plan to keep them clean. Kitchen, so pilots
>a=
>ren't beholden to eating out. Laundry machines, coin op is fine. And of
>c=
>ourse a bar/restaurant/clubhouse with a view of operations/sky. Of course
>a=
>n underground parking lot for ugly trailers(kidding.) Keeping bathrooms
>an=
>d a kitchen clean and functional is a challenge but do that and people
>will=
> put up with most anything else. Don't know what the demand will be for
>RV=
> hook ups, and cabins/bunk rooms. Hobby widows are entertained by semi
>per=
>manent RV/camping spots, playing house for grown ups. Dunno how many
>pilots=
> go for casino rooms. Providing maintenance/repair space/tools/power
>might=
> be nice but could be a downside. =20
>On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 12:31:17 PM UTC-4,
>wro=
>te:
>> Soaring pilots have a rare opportunity in the coming years to create an
>i=
>nternational soaring facility in a place with great soaring conditions.
>If=
> you were doing this, what would you include, what would you design into
>it=
>, what considerations would be important as the facility comes together?
>>=20
>> Let me explain.
>>=20
>> The county commissioners and airport management at the Minden-Tahoe
>Airpo=
>rt committed two years ago to creating a general aviation opportunity
with
>=
>strong support for soaring on the east side of our airport. This came
>afte=
>r many years of lobbying by soaring pilots for recognition of the unique
>so=
>aring resources available here: superb wave and thermal conditions and
>occa=
>sional ridge flying from an airport that is friendly to us and our
>activiti=
>es. A look at US flights registered on the OLC in any given year
>demonstra=
>tes just how good we have it here, and we'd like to create an
>international=
> soaring center so pilots from all over can take part in our great
soaring.
>>=20
>> Who are we? Three years ago several like-minded pilots created the
>Sport=
>s Aviation Foundation with the idea of f=
>inding funds and building an aviation facility that would be on the
>opposit=
>e side of the airport from heavier traffic and would prominently feature
>an=
> international soaring facility. We recognized that regular crossing of
>the=
> main runway with golf carts towing gliders can become a safety issue.
We
>=
>will not exclude general aviation, but the jets that visit Minden fairly
>re=
>gularly will be separated on the west side of the airport while we
operate
>=
>from the east side. There are nay-sayers who believe jets will take over
>th=
>is airport, but in the ten years I've lived here we have seen no
>appreciabl=
>e uptick in jet operations -- the economic demand is just not there. =20
>>=20
>> So we have a foundation that can guide the development of an
>internationa=
>l soaring center, we have land dedicated to creation of a general
aviation
>=
>facility that will be glider-friendly, and we have received 501(c)(3)
>stat=
>us from federal (IRS) and state authorities. Airport management has
>brough=
>t in utilities and is now planning tarmac upgrades, some of which will be
>v=
>ery helpful to glider pilots in strong cross-wind conditions. =20
>>=20
>> And we - the Sports Aviation Foundation - are looking for suggestions
>and=
> ideas. How many times have you said to yourself "I wish they had
thought
>=
>of gliders when they designed this airport?" Well this is your
>opportunity=
>.. We have a clean slate, and we want to make sure to include all the
good
>=
>ideas we can for designing a facility that will be used heavily by
>gliders.=
> =20
>>=20
>> Some of the ideas you will suggest are already on our "must-do" list,
>but=
> what we'd like to avoid is getting to a certain point in the design and
>th=
>inking "oh darn, why didn't we think of that?"
>>=20
>> So this is an invitation to glider pilots everywhere to say "hey, don't
>f=
>orget to include a family-friendly campground," or "where are the water
>poi=
>nts for ballasting during international competitions?" or "how about
>drive-=
>through parking for glider trailers?"
>>=20
>> I recognize that this might be an invitation for some snarky replies,
>but=
> it's also an invitation for getting in on the ground floor of a design
>and=
> building process. And even coming to be a part of this exciting process
>i=
>f you have a mind to relocate to Minden eventually and share our
>outstandin=
>g soaring. How would YOU design an international soaring center?
>

[J. Nieuwenhuize]

Can you winch-launch? Would be by far my highest-priority topic.


Basic kitchen, shower, big freezers and fridges and obviously toilets are mandatory. A few hostel-like basic bedrooms plus a few basic rooms for rent? Camping ground certainly mandatory.

Fleet-wise, I think there's a big market for affordable gliders for rent. Think ASW19, LS4 for 50-100US$ a day. Sounds unbelievably cheap, but for 10-20K a year in revenue, you sure can insure, maintain and profit such an airframe can't you?

You'd obviously need at least a glass two-seater for check-outs etc, which could also be hired out (with/without instructor).

With that combination, there's a lot of people that can't or won't afford their own sailplane but still would like to fly a few weeks a year. Let's face it, usually college kids are the only ones with the time to fly a lot and retired people are the only ones who are likely to own a glider. Huge group of people in between those two extremes who'd happily spend 500-1000 US$ to fly a dedicated decent glider for a week from a great spot like Minden.

Power (outside contacts) somewhere near where gliders are tied down.

[[email protected]]

Good suggestions! Keep them coming!

Let me emphasize, Sports Aviation Foundation will NOT be an operator, so we will not have rental gliders. We hope an operator or two will locate there, and we are confident they will if conditions are good (and they will be).

What we WILL be is a driving force to get the basic facilities placed in the right places and to keep the place attractive to business that will offer things like bunk houses, winch tows, rentals, etc.

Fred

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

May not be possible to do with where the operations will be relative to the runway, but I have seen quite a few that get buildings to the west of the runway, if dealing with a N-S Runway. This provides afternoon and evening shade from the buildings and hangars while sitting and watching the operations. Soaring isn't near as much a morning as afternoon and into evening sport, and mornings are generally cooler and you can tolerate minimal shade for a while in the first daylight. I really notice this when I go from my home, where everything is east of the runway, to another location, where everything is west of the runway.

Large, covered porch, 360 degrees around any "clubhouse" building.

Just a couple of observations I have had from a couple of different sites I have been to.

Steve Leonard

[Papa3[_2_]]

Great stuff. I think of the many clubs I've visited in Europe, and the single biggest differences between them and typical US operations are facilities. Not all of these exist at all clubs, but the bigger ones have quite a few of them:

- Food and drink. The bigger clubs have a kitchen and bar (often run by a local third-party) that operates most days. So, you need the appropriate kitchen facilities to make at least a limited operation profitable/feasible (commercial stove, flattop, sinks, dishwasher, fridge and freezer). Doesn't need to be industrial scale, but big enough to handle 50 covers an hour at peak. If that's not in the cards, then at least a big public kitchen that would support a bunch of transient folks using it.

- Accomodations. Already covered, but a good bunk house with reasonable bathroom facilities and maybe even a couple of private rooms. Also, hookups for a dozen or so RVs plus tent sites for the hardcore campers.

- Classroom/Briefing room. With modern A/V equipment and ability for flexible setup (round tables, lecture hall, whatever)

- Hangars or other covered storage.

- First class workshop facilities. This would attract a good mechanic/repair station who could be an independent contractor.

- Non-soaring amenities. While they don't have to be extravagant, a pool and a playground would be useful for folks who are travelling with families.. Creatively, if the pool could be a public facility (i.e. municipal) supporting lap lanes, a diving tank, etc.), then the burden wouldn't be on the airport alone.



-

[J. Nieuwenhuize]

Op dinsdag 29 september 2015 23:29:18 UTC+2 schreef :
> Good suggestions! Keep them coming!
>
> Let me emphasize, Sports Aviation Foundation will NOT be an operator, so we will not have rental gliders. We hope an operator or two will locate there, and we are confident they will if conditions are good (and they will be).
>
> What we WILL be is a driving force to get the basic facilities placed in the right places and to keep the place attractive to business that will offer things like bunk houses, winch tows, rentals, etc.
>
> Fred
Might be hard to make some decisions because operator and required facilities are tightly interwoven. Many of the bigger European soaring centers are succesful because one entity does everything.
It seems that most fully commercial operations have a goal to make the most profit with the hottest gliders in town (Arcus M, ASH 30, V2CxM). That'll always remain a small potential userbase and given that, limited hours and thus even higher cost.

[Per Carlin]

Something for the family to do when you are out and soaring:
- Playroom for the kids
- Outdoor play area
- Pool
- Mini Golf
- Etc

[Per Carlin]

If if is a true international soaring center do you need:
- Availability for maintenance and small repairs.
- Area for long term parking of trailers
- Briefing room (daily held by pilots with local experience

Facilities for living, cooking cleaning are mentioned, but you all missed the Barbecue. Soaring is nice! Food, bear and stories about soaring in the evening are almost equally important!

[Justin Craig[_3_]]

Area for international shipping containers.

One or two versatile open trailers allowing gliders from abroad to ship
without their trailers.

4 - 6 glider in a container may afford the organization some additional
rental kit as owners shipping from aboard my wish to cover some expense by
renting their gliders for part of the season.

Responsible person take charge of and to oversee the use of privately
owned rental glider.

I hope this is successful. Well done.

[Craig Reinholt]

Adjacent property for private hangers.

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 10:31:59 AM UTC-4, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> Adjacent property for private hangers.

With spacing to permit 20m gliders between hangars!

[Dave Nadler]

Facilities for a commercial food establishment (commercial kitchen in addition to a kitchen area for pilots), with easy access to inside and outside seating. Some of the most pleasant sites I've visited have full-time commercial eateries serving food and of course cool refreshing beverages, with the eateries frequented by glider bums and families even on non-flying days.

[[email protected]]

I think all Comforts and hard assets really nice - but - I believe the most critical thing you can do for a new center is to spend the huge amount of time required to develop a business model that make it self sustainable.

You can have all the great stuff put in, but to be here in 50 years and to be maintained to the level I am sure you would want it kept, requires money/man power/................

Getting that part correct is not as easy as it sounds. I came from an Olympic Sport that had centers and all kinds of cool ideas and potential (some time I dislike that word.. potential :) lol). Many times they can never find the right funding/programs/people business model to make them survive and fourish.

There are some place like Harris Hill which sure seem to have done much right - but every venue has demands that are unique.

It is a win win for all Soaring pilots if you get it right :) Can't wait to fly there! I am sure it will be excellent!

WH1