ClearNav CNv software updates available

[Tango Eight]

At the usual place... http://www.clearnav.net/main/cn-downloads.html

Users with NAV display and XC license can try out our new thermal assistant in the 3.2 beta. There's also an update for 3.1.

Please see release notes, they contain information you'll want to have.

Good Soaring and best regards,

Evan Ludeman for CNi

[joesimmers[_2_]]

Evan, will the thermal assistant display on the main CN screen if
that is coupled to the CNV?

Or will it be necessary to purchase the new style Nav Display
for the CNV to use the assistant?

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, October 3, 2015 at 8:36:48 AM UTC-4, joesimmers wrote:
> Evan, will the thermal assistant display on the main CN screen if
> that is coupled to the CNV?
>
> Or will it be necessary to purchase the new style Nav Display
> for the CNV to use the assistant?

We need to figure this out oursselves :-).

The TA was developed on NAV because that was the convenient platform. It exceeded expectations in alpha testing, we wanted to get it out in the real world as quickly as possible. We aren't finished by any stretch, this is a beta.

best,
Evan Ludeman for CNi

[Dan Marotta]

Now you've got me thinking...

Is the thermal assistant transmitted via the serial port? Perhaps
XCSoar will be able to use the data for its thermal assistant (at least
if the developers think it's better than the one they provide).

I hope Max is listening...

On 10/3/2015 8:47 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Saturday, October 3, 2015 at 8:36:48 AM UTC-4, joesimmers wrote:
>> Evan, will the thermal assistant display on the main CN screen if
>> that is coupled to the CNV?
>>
>> Or will it be necessary to purchase the new style Nav Display
>> for the CNV to use the assistant?
> We need to figure this out oursselves :-).
>
> The TA was developed on NAV because that was the convenient platform. It exceeded expectations in alpha testing, we wanted to get it out in the real world as quickly as possible. We aren't finished by any stretch, this is a beta.
>
> best,
> Evan Ludeman for CNi

--
Dan, 5J

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, October 4, 2015 at 11:21:32 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Is the thermal assistant transmitted via the serial port?*

Not at this time.

best,
Evan Ludeman for CNi

[Surge]

On Sunday, 4 October 2015 17:21:32 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Is the thermal assistant transmitted via the serial port?* Perhaps
> XCSoar will be able to use the data for its thermal assistant (at
> least if the developers think it's better than the one they
> provide).
>
> I hope Max is listening...

I hope ClearNav is listening...

The biggest problem the XCSoar developers face regarding hardware is the lack of support from the instrument manufacturers. Only a few of them publish their serial protocols and the rest either ignore requests for documentation or give you an outright "no". The developers don't have the hardware and/or time to try to reverse engineer every proprietary instrument available so if the manufacturers decide to throw up road blocks then rather stick to supported hardware or you as a customer need to put some pressure on the manufacturer to release the info.

Max has stated on the XCSoar forums that people should steer clear of the following manufacturers if they want their hardware to integrate with XCSoar:
- ClearNav
- LX Navigation
- SDI/Zander
- Westerboer

[Tango Eight]

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:36:34 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
> On Sunday, 4 October 2015 17:21:32 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Is the thermal assistant transmitted via the serial port?* Perhaps
> > XCSoar will be able to use the data for its thermal assistant (at
> > least if the developers think it's better than the one they
> > provide).
> >
> > I hope Max is listening...
>
> I hope ClearNav is listening...
>
> The biggest problem the XCSoar developers face regarding hardware is the lack of support from the instrument manufacturers. Only a few of them publish their serial protocols and the rest either ignore requests for documentation or give you an outright "no". The developers don't have the hardware and/or time to try to reverse engineer every proprietary instrument available so if the manufacturers decide to throw up road blocks then rather stick to supported hardware or you as a customer need to put some pressure on the manufacturer to release the info.
>
> Max has stated on the XCSoar forums that people should steer clear of the following manufacturers if they want their hardware to integrate with XCSoar:
> - ClearNav
> - LX Navigation
> - SDI/Zander
> - Westerboer

Hey Dan, how's CNv working with XCSoar on your Dell Streak?

-Evan

[[email protected]]

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:36:34 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
> On Sunday, 4 October 2015 17:21:32 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Is the thermal assistant transmitted via the serial port?* Perhaps
> > XCSoar will be able to use the data for its thermal assistant (at
> > least if the developers think it's better than the one they
> > provide).
> >
> > I hope Max is listening...
>
> I hope ClearNav is listening...
>
> The biggest problem the XCSoar developers face regarding hardware is the lack of support from the instrument manufacturers. Only a few of them publish their serial protocols and the rest either ignore requests for documentation or give you an outright "no". The developers don't have the hardware and/or time to try to reverse engineer every proprietary instrument available so if the manufacturers decide to throw up road blocks then rather stick to supported hardware or you as a customer need to put some pressure on the manufacturer to release the info.
>
> Max has stated on the XCSoar forums that people should steer clear of the following manufacturers if they want their hardware to integrate with XCSoar:
> - ClearNav
> - LX Navigation
> - SDI/Zander
> - Westerboer

If you are a manufacturer of soaring instrumentation that does computation and display, why would you voluntarily give away your proprietary information to people that produce competitive alternatives for "free"?
Maybe the availability of features one can not get on freeware is a reason to buy the products they produce.
Not everything in life has to available for free on the internet.
There certainly seems to be room for both approaches, each with benefits.
UH

[Dan Marotta]

Well... That's really too bad.

So far, I've had excellent results with my ClearNav XC vario feeding my
Dell Streak 5 running XCSoar. Shortly after I switched from a CAI-302
to the ClearNav the CNI folks made software changes such that my system
worked pretty much the same way as it had with the 302.

Dan

On 10/4/2015 10:36 PM, Surge wrote:
> On Sunday, 4 October 2015 17:21:32 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Is the thermal assistant transmitted via the serial port? Perhaps
>> XCSoar will be able to use the data for its thermal assistant (at
>> least if the developers think it's better than the one they
>> provide).
>>
>> I hope Max is listening...
> I hope ClearNav is listening...
>
> The biggest problem the XCSoar developers face regarding hardware is the lack of support from the instrument manufacturers. Only a few of them publish their serial protocols and the rest either ignore requests for documentation or give you an outright "no". The developers don't have the hardware and/or time to try to reverse engineer every proprietary instrument available so if the manufacturers decide to throw up road blocks then rather stick to supported hardware or you as a customer need to put some pressure on the manufacturer to release the info.
>
> Max has stated on the XCSoar forums that people should steer clear of the following manufacturers if they want their hardware to integrate with XCSoar:
> - ClearNav
> - LX Navigation
> - SDI/Zander
> - Westerboer

--
Dan, 5J

[Surge]

On Monday, 5 October 2015 15:06:03 UTC+2, wrote:
> If you are a manufacturer of soaring instrumentation that does computation and display, why would you voluntarily give away your proprietary information to people that produce competitive alternatives for "free"?

You'd want to give away your proprietary information so that you don't lose potential customers and you grow your customer base.
If people want to integrate a manufacturer's product with a free one then it means that they've already purchased or plan to purchase a product from the manufacturer. The manufacturer would be shooting themselves in their own feet by trying to protect their proprietary protocols/implementations.
Let me give you a real world example.

I intend to fit a modern glide computer and vario to my glider next year. My budget is around $2000 but a vario and glide computer combined is in the $4000 to $6000 bracket. A decent vario is non-negotiable so my only option for the glide computer portion is something like XCSoar, Tophat, iGlide, Oudie/SeeYou, etc. which are free or affordable.
This means I need to find a manufacturer that releases information regarding their instruments so that one of the above products can support it.
ClearNav make some great looking varios but the lack of support with free/affordable glide computers means I need to take my $2000 elsewhere.
ClearNav $0
LXNav $2000

What would the iOS or Android app stores look like if the manufacturers withheld SDK's and documentation regarding the systems and API's preventing 3rd parties from creating custom apps?
If Mercedes Benz made a proprietary tow hook on their vehicles would you be happy being forced to purchase an overpriced Mercedes Benz trailer because generic ones are not compatible?

The power of sharing information and promoting compatibility (even with your competitors) is that you create an eco-system drawing in even more customers than you would have had otherwise. Ten customers spending $2000 vs two customers spending $5000?

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 1:37:54 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
> [rant trimmed]

CNv works fine with 3rd party devices & software including Oudie, WinPilot(iirc), XCSoar and TopHat. Ask around. But please let's not turn a simple announcement thread into discussion of third party support and policies.

Briefly: We use (at present) a subset of the Cambridge dataport spec. No one, including Cambridge, ever used the whole spec or even specific portions of it exactly as written. So there were some inevitable bugs. Those have been mostly sorted out.

We're quickly approaching the point where we will want to start adding capabilities that are outside the CAI spec. We'll make some appropriate decision about how to do this and release the details to developers.

best,
Evan Ludeman for CNi

[krasw]

maanantai 5. lokakuuta 2015 16.06.03 UTC+3 kirjoitti:
> If you are a manufacturer of soaring instrumentation that does computation and display, why would you voluntarily give away your proprietary information to people that produce competitive alternatives for "free"?

Why would Microsoft give programmers specs for them to make software running on Windows? I quess they calculated that in the long run it would be beneficial for people to be able ot run programs on Windows?

[6PK]

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 11:07:47 PM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 1:37:54 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
> > [rant trimmed]
>
> CNv works fine with 3rd party devices & software including Oudie, WinPilot(iirc), XCSoar and TopHat. Ask around. But please let's not turn a simple announcement thread into discussion of third party support and policies.
>
> Briefly: We use (at present) a subset of the Cambridge dataport spec. No one, including Cambridge, ever used the whole spec or even specific portions of it exactly as written. So there were some inevitable bugs. Those have been mostly sorted out.
>
> We're quickly approaching the point where we will want to start adding capabilities that are outside the CAI spec. We'll make some appropriate decision about how to do this and release the details to developers.
>
> best,
> Evan Ludeman for CNi

This maybe a naïve question; would CNv components work with CAI (302?) products?

[kirk.stant]

This discussion took an odd turn. It's one thing to share basic vario data - pretty much all modern varios do that (including CNv); it's altogether a different think to share a proprietary program that uses that data in a unique way - which is what the CNv thermal centering tool does.

No one is preventing XCSoar or anybody else from developing their own killer thermalling app, using someone else's raw vario/gps data.

Surge's comments, while not really a "rant" (touchy, T8?), are off base, IMO, since CN supports third party devices. The cost issue is a red herring - you get what you can afford...

And, as a longtime Westerboer user, I'll continue to avoid XCSoar ;^)

Kirk
66

[Dan Marotta]

On 10/6/2015 7:47 AM, 6PK wrote:
> <snip>


> This maybe a naïve question; would CNv components work with CAI (302?)
> products?

The simple answer is, "Yes".

When I purchased my glider it had a CAI-302 and a PDA running WinPilot.
I quickly changed the PDA for a Mio car GPS (Windows CE) running XCSoar,
which I found to have an inadequate screen. I sold that and bought a
Samsung Galaxy (S3, I think, and Android), again running XCSoar, and
using a K6BT serial to Bluetooth converter connected to the CAI-302. It
worked quite well except the screen was not readable in direct
sunlight. I sold the Samsung and bought a used Dell Streak 5 (Android)
and it was a simple swap and everything worked to my complete delight.

Finally, due to the GPS date SNAFU, I took advantage of ClearNav's offer
to take my 302 in trade for a ClearNav XC vario (at a pretty good
discount, as I recall). The CNvXC so far exceeds the 302 in capability
that it's not even worth talking about. Initially there were a few
glitches with the communications due to connector differences (RJ-45 vs
DB-9). I bought a new cable from Cumulus Soaring solving the physical
interface issues, but there were still protocol issues, i.e., the Streak
would receive, process, and display data from the CNv, but if I
attempted to send data to the CNv, the comm interface would shutdown
necessitating rebooting the CNv. ClearNav quickly addressed the issue
and now the system works to my complete satisfaction.

Having flown now (in friends' gliders) with a complete ClearNav system
and an LX-8000 system, I think my next glider will have ClearNav.
--
Dan, 5J

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 10:17:03 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
> (touchy, T8?)

Arguments based on false premises try my patience. CNv's communications protocol has never been proprietary. Inadequately described? Yes, at times. We should be past all that now.

T8

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 9:47:22 AM UTC-4, 6PK wrote:

> This maybe a naïve question; would CNv components work with CAI (302?) products?

If you are asking: "Can I mix / match Cambridge and ClearNav hardware" the answer is no. People often ask about the relationship between ClearNav Instruments and Cambridge (there is none, although some of the same people are involved) and whether (for instance) one can use a Cambridge 303 display with CNv (no).

CNvXC does use the Cambridge dataport specification for serial communication, so in many respects the serial port chatter is similar between CNvXC and the old 302 vario. It isn't identical in all respects. So GPS, wind, air data, MC, water ballast settings work just like 302, you can declare tasks just like 302, but you cannot d/l a flight log over the serial bus like 302 (you use a USB drive).

best,
Evan Ludeman for CNi