Radio acting up

[Blake Seese 3Y]

Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

[Dan Marotta]

I would suspect your microphone. Perhaps you could borrow a known good
mic and fly with it.

On 10/18/2015 3:05 PM, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> 3Y

--
Dan, 5J

[JS]

Believe the 4201 has a transmit indication on the display. Are you getting intermittent indication there too?
If so, not the microphone but could be the wiring of the PTT. or the switch itself. A bit of extra resistance and you won't get a clean switch to "transmit".
Check that the D-Sub connector on the back of the radio is fully locked, and the power supply is good. Exercise the breaker or remove and replace the fuse. Damaged wiring would limit current to the radio which could give the same result. It takes more current to transmit.
Jim

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 2:24:33 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I would suspect your microphone.* Perhaps you could borrow a known
> good mic and fly with it.
>
>
>
>
> On 10/18/2015 3:05 PM, Blake Seese 3Y
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> 3Y

>
> Dan, 5J

[Tim Newport-Peace[_2_]]

At 21:24 18 October 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
>I would suspect your microphone. Perhaps you could borrow a known good
>mic and fly with it.

Or it might be the depth of Modulation in the transmitter?

>
>On 10/18/2015 3:05 PM, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic
>regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets
>about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as
>they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that
>has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> 3Y
>
>--
>Dan, 5J
>

[Six-Seven Romeo]

Intermittent problems are the worst to troubleshoot. I assume this problem just started happening. Here are some generic ideas to eliminate possibilities;

- Is the push to talk switch intermittent and while bouncing around in a thermal you are effectively not transmitting part of the time? Clue: does it also happen on the ground without bouncing?
- Microphone can also become intermittent while bouncing around in the air.
- Try replacing your battery with another from a friend (lithium would be best). Even though you said you had a fully charged battery, transmitting is the heaviest current use you have (except maybe a transponder) and if the battery voltage droops too much it can stop transmitting. Then the voltage rebounds and you start transmitting again. Repeat ad infinitum.
- Is it interference? Shut off all other avionics, varios, etc.
- Antenna? Temporarily replace the glider's antenna with a portable's "rubber duckie" antenna. If the glider's antenna is bad check or replace the BNC connector as a first step.

Anyone else have some troubleshooting tips?

Ultimately, you may need to send the transceiver to a shop for a bench test.. Make sure they know Beckers and that you tell them about your symptoms. Good luck. Report back!

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 10:10:56 AM UTC-7, Six-Seven Romeo wrote:
> Intermittent problems are the worst to troubleshoot. I assume this problem just started happening. Here are some generic ideas to eliminate possibilities;
>
> - Is the push to talk switch intermittent and while bouncing around in a thermal you are effectively not transmitting part of the time? Clue: does it also happen on the ground without bouncing?
> - Microphone can also become intermittent while bouncing around in the air.

[Dan Marotta]

If you have a friend with the same radio, and known working, swap radios
and see if the problem stays with your glider or moves to his.

On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 10:10:56 AM UTC-7, Six-Seven Romeo wrote:
>> Intermittent problems are the worst to troubleshoot. I assume this problem just started happening. Here are some generic ideas to eliminate possibilities;
>>
>> - Is the push to talk switch intermittent and while bouncing around in a thermal you are effectively not transmitting part of the time? Clue: does it also happen on the ground without bouncing?
>> - Microphone can also become intermittent while bouncing around in the air.
>> - Try replacing your battery with another from a friend (lithium would be best). Even though you said you had a fully charged battery, transmitting is the heaviest current use you have (except maybe a transponder) and if the battery voltage droops too much it can stop transmitting. Then the voltage rebounds and you start transmitting again. Repeat ad infinitum.
>> - Is it interference? Shut off all other avionics, varios, etc.
>> - Antenna? Temporarily replace the glider's antenna with a portable's "rubber duckie" antenna. If the glider's antenna is bad check or replace the BNC connector as a first step.
>>
>> Anyone else have some troubleshooting tips?
>>
>> Ultimately, you may need to send the transceiver to a shop for a bench test. Make sure they know Beckers and that you tell them about your symptoms. Good luck. Report back!
> Check your radio chassis grounding, and make sure it is very secure.
>
> Matt H

--
Dan, 5J

[Blake Seese 3Y]

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> 3Y

Great tips all, thank you! One other question, would using a deep cycle battery cause any issues?
3Y

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 9:58:13 AM UTC-4, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > 3Y
>
> Great tips all, thank you! One other question, would using a deep cycle battery cause any issues?
> 3Y

It shouldn't, volts are volts. I will add though, lead acid batteries have a long tapered discharge graph, a lot of people are now switching to the newer "LiFe" (and similar) battery chemistries. They tend to have a much flatter overall discharge graph maintaining a higher voltage level longer.
These new batteries also weigh a fraction of lead acid batteries (your typical Gel-Cell types in use for decades).

Some radios don't perform as well when the voltage drops a bit, couple that with an older battery, the voltage can dip even more when loaded (like during a radio transmission).

There have been a few discussions regarding these new batteries on this forum. There are also a few different vendors here that sell them.
Yes, they cost more, but seem to have a better life, better performance and can be had with a higher capacity in the same space as the older 12 volts ~7AH batteries.

[[email protected]]

Blake.
For practical purposes, all of our glider batteries are deep cycle batteries. The deep cycle batteries are intended for moderate currents over long periods of time (say 1 Amp over 6 hours for a 7Ah Lead Acid AGM battery). Contrary to a car battery that is intended for very high currents (hundreds of Amps) for a very short period of time (seconds that the starter is running).

Your problem description above is very limited, so there is a lot of guess work going on in the responses. You will have to measure to debug your system.
In my experience, most radio problems are in the wiring. First check that your wiring is solid.
Then check the easy things.
Is your PTT button solid or some flakiness there ?
Does the transmit indicator on the display stay solid on while you are transmitting ?

Does the radio display start blinking when you hold the transmit button down for 5 or 10 seconds ? The supply voltage is dropping below 10.5V. That would be an indication of a power supply problem. Could be a battery problem or a wiring problem.
Measure the supply voltage, preferably at the radio or at the panel distribution point if your battery is remote (like behind the seat). Push and hold the PTT button for 10 seconds and see if the voltage remains fairly stable.. Should not drop more than 0.5V.
If it drops significantly, check your battery for the remaining capacity. You cannot determine the battery capacity by only measuring voltage. You need to fully charge the battery and then run a load (e.g. car brake bulb) for hours until the voltage drops to 10.5V.
Product of time (in hours) and average current (in Amps) is your remaining capacity.

When your buddies receive your seemingly interrupted transmission, what exactly do they hear. When your modulation quits, do they still get the carrier (i.e. silence) or do they hear noise in between your words (i.e. the carrier is switching off).
Test it with a handheld with the squelch off to avoid the squelch from suppressing the noise.
If the carrier is interrupting, it might again be a power supply problem like above.
If the carrier remains on, it is pointing to a microphone or a radio electronics (modulator) problem.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your troubleshooting.
3U

[Blake Seese 3Y]

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> 3Y

Finally got to the radio in my glider and found that with all the instruments on, I am getting a huge voltage drop at the radio when I transmit causing the cyclic drop of the signal. With all the other instruments off and a fresh battery, I have no problems. Also the voltage is dropping at the radio and not the battery. Looks like I need to replace the wiring from the batteries to the panel and redo the wiring behind the panel. Planning on using one battery for the radio, and one for the transponder and everything else. I'm also going to add circuit breakers and run two master switches, one for each battery. Does anyone have any knowledge of the tyco circuit breakers sold by aircraft spruce? They are pretty low cost, but are they cheap?

Thanks,
3Y

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 9:44:18 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > 3Y
>
> Finally got to the radio in my glider and found that with all the instruments on, I am getting a huge voltage drop at the radio when I transmit causing the cyclic drop of the signal. With all the other instruments off and a fresh battery, I have no problems. Also the voltage is dropping at the radio and not the battery. Looks like I need to replace the wiring from the batteries to the panel and redo the wiring behind the panel. Planning on using one battery for the radio, and one for the transponder and everything else. I'm also going to add circuit breakers and run two master switches, one for each battery. Does anyone have any knowledge of the tyco circuit breakers sold by aircraft spruce? They are pretty low cost, but are they cheap?
>
> Thanks,
> 3Y

Which radio?

Fuses have lower voltage drop (much lower) than circuit breakers.

When you say, fresh battery, is that just off charge or new?

What other loads on the battery? varios, computer, pda, flarm, cameras?

Lead acid or LiFePo?

Real aircraft wiring, proper guage?

[Blake Seese 3Y]

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> 3Y

Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring.. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12.8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > 3Y
>
> Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old.. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12.8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.

I would start at the battery and go back through the wiring to see where the voltage is dropping.
Could be a loose connection, corroded connection, broken wire (inside the insulation), etc.
Since the voltage drop is different between what the radio see's and at the battery, it's a wiring issue.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 9:44:18 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > 3Y
>
> Finally got to the radio in my glider and found that with all the instruments on, I am getting a huge voltage drop at the radio when I transmit causing the cyclic drop of the signal. With all the other instruments off and a fresh battery, I have no problems. Also the voltage is dropping at the radio and not the battery. Looks like I need to replace the wiring from the batteries to the panel and redo the wiring behind the panel. Planning on using one battery for the radio, and one for the transponder and everything else. I'm also going to add circuit breakers and run two master switches, one for each battery. Does anyone have any knowledge of the tyco circuit breakers sold by aircraft spruce? They are pretty low cost, but are they cheap?
>
> Thanks,
> 3Y

Use fuses, not circuit breakers. Breakers can cause a big voltage drop.
UH

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > 3Y
>
> Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old.. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12.8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.

Your power budget:

Core - 165 mA
Butterfly - 45 mA
302 - 350mA
B400 - 200 mA
Oudie 2 - 200 - 220 mA plus 200 mA if battery is being charged
TT21 - 200 mA
So about 1180 mA with no radio (1380 mA if Oudie is charging - I don't know if you bring it to the airport charged or not)

The radio: Becker 4201 - 70 mA standby 500 mA receive 2.5 A transmit
So draw is (worst case, Oudie is charging):
1.45 A radio standby
1.88 A radio receive (don't know how active your frequency is)
3.88 A radio transmit

That's a lot of draw for one battery when the radio is transmitting. I have an ammeter that I put in between my battery and the glider to test draw - inexpensive way of looking at what I'm asking the battery to do. By all means, check the wiring, but you might be better off with two circuits (my opinion).

An excellent presentation on glider avionic wiring is the "2015 Nephi OLC Camp presentation", which you can download at: http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/. Excellent in all respects - note the comments on wire size, and circuit breakers... Great work by John DeRosa.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 5:05:51 PM UTC-4, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> 3Y

What are you using to test this?
I had a similar problem a few years back
By chance are you using an Icom handheld?

Randy

[Blake Seese 3Y]

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> 3Y

Thank you to all who responded, super helpful info! I will post again once I have addressed the wiring.

Best to all,
Blake - 3Y

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 10:07:08 AM UTC-5, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > 3Y
> >
> > Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12.8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.
>
> Your power budget:
>
> Core - 165 mA
> Butterfly - 45 mA
> 302 - 350mA
> B400 - 200 mA
> Oudie 2 - 200 - 220 mA plus 200 mA if battery is being charged
> TT21 - 200 mA
> So about 1180 mA with no radio (1380 mA if Oudie is charging - I don't know if you bring it to the airport charged or not)
>
> The radio: Becker 4201 - 70 mA standby 500 mA receive 2.5 A transmit
> So draw is (worst case, Oudie is charging):
> 1.45 A radio standby
> 1.88 A radio receive (don't know how active your frequency is)
> 3.88 A radio transmit
>
> That's a lot of draw for one battery when the radio is transmitting. I have an ammeter that I put in between my battery and the glider to test draw - inexpensive way of looking at what I'm asking the battery to do. By all means, check the wiring, but you might be better off with two circuits (my opinion).
>
> An excellent presentation on glider avionic wiring is the "2015 Nephi OLC Camp presentation", which you can download at: http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/. Excellent in all respects - note the comments on wire size, and circuit breakers... Great work by John DeRosa.

Excellent post, lot's of thought & research.

My only issue is...... why the drop at the radio (in voltage) but not the drop at the battery (in voltage)?
If the total system was overdrawing the battery (or, the drop when transmitting...), wouldn't you think the battery voltage drop would be close to the voltage drop at the radio?

Just asking....

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:06:49 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 10:07:08 AM UTC-5, Dan Daly wrote:
> > On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > > > Hello all,
> > > >
> > > > My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > 3Y
> > >
> > > Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12.8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.
> >
> > Your power budget:
> >
> > Core - 165 mA
> > Butterfly - 45 mA
> > 302 - 350mA
> > B400 - 200 mA
> > Oudie 2 - 200 - 220 mA plus 200 mA if battery is being charged
> > TT21 - 200 mA
> > So about 1180 mA with no radio (1380 mA if Oudie is charging - I don't know if you bring it to the airport charged or not)
> >
> > The radio: Becker 4201 - 70 mA standby 500 mA receive 2.5 A transmit
> > So draw is (worst case, Oudie is charging):
> > 1.45 A radio standby
> > 1.88 A radio receive (don't know how active your frequency is)
> > 3.88 A radio transmit
> >
> > That's a lot of draw for one battery when the radio is transmitting. I have an ammeter that I put in between my battery and the glider to test draw - inexpensive way of looking at what I'm asking the battery to do. By all means, check the wiring, but you might be better off with two circuits (my opinion).
> >
> > An excellent presentation on glider avionic wiring is the "2015 Nephi OLC Camp presentation", which you can download at: http://aviation.derosaweb..net/presentations/. Excellent in all respects - note the comments on wire size, and circuit breakers... Great work by John DeRosa.
>
> Excellent post, lot's of thought & research.
>
> My only issue is...... why the drop at the radio (in voltage) but not the drop at the battery (in voltage)?
> If the total system was overdrawing the battery (or, the drop when transmitting...), wouldn't you think the battery voltage drop would be close to the voltage drop at the radio?
>
> Just asking....

Distribution losses . Wire size, terminations, current protection, ground problems, etc.
UH

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:33:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:06:49 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 10:07:08 AM UTC-5, Dan Daly wrote:
> > > On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > > > > Hello all,
> > > > >
> > > > > My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > 3Y
> > > >
> > > > Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12..8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.
> > >
> > > Your power budget:
> > >
> > > Core - 165 mA
> > > Butterfly - 45 mA
> > > 302 - 350mA
> > > B400 - 200 mA
> > > Oudie 2 - 200 - 220 mA plus 200 mA if battery is being charged
> > > TT21 - 200 mA
> > > So about 1180 mA with no radio (1380 mA if Oudie is charging - I don't know if you bring it to the airport charged or not)
> > >
> > > The radio: Becker 4201 - 70 mA standby 500 mA receive 2.5 A transmit
> > > So draw is (worst case, Oudie is charging):
> > > 1.45 A radio standby
> > > 1.88 A radio receive (don't know how active your frequency is)
> > > 3.88 A radio transmit
> > >
> > > That's a lot of draw for one battery when the radio is transmitting. I have an ammeter that I put in between my battery and the glider to test draw - inexpensive way of looking at what I'm asking the battery to do. By all means, check the wiring, but you might be better off with two circuits (my opinion).
> > >
> > > An excellent presentation on glider avionic wiring is the "2015 Nephi OLC Camp presentation", which you can download at: http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/. Excellent in all respects - note the comments on wire size, and circuit breakers... Great work by John DeRosa.
> >
> > Excellent post, lot's of thought & research.
> >
> > My only issue is...... why the drop at the radio (in voltage) but not the drop at the battery (in voltage)?
> > If the total system was overdrawing the battery (or, the drop when transmitting...), wouldn't you think the battery voltage drop would be close to the voltage drop at the radio?
> >
> > Just asking....
>
> Distribution losses . Wire size, terminations, current protection, ground problems, etc.
> UH

Great reply.... look at this list (not the be all to end all...) to cover wire size vs. ampacity.
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Thus my comment, start at the issue, go backwards until you find the least drop and try to fix it.
I agree circuit breakers are a bad thing in general.

Breakers & fuses are to protect the wiring, if they help out equipment, great. DO NOT put in a bigger (higher amp rating breaker/fuse) to "fix" trips. Wiring WILL become a "light bulb" likely causing the insulation to start a fire. Not my idea of a good scene.....

Not sure how "aircraft wire vs. any other wire affects loss", but it's more of a "what will the FAA (or whatever governing body has the say in your country) say about the wire your're using?".
Technically you may exceed the reg's, but that does NOT mean you won't get failed.
Good intentions don't mean bupkiss to the fed's.

Crimp connectors need the proper crimp, my experience is a "Horseshoe crimp" far surpasses any other crimp. Period.
Solid wire is a MAJOR "no-no" unless soldered.
"So sayeth a facilities guy with thousands of connections to monitor". I don't remember ANY crimp connector mfgr (T&B, AMP, Amphenol, etc.) giving a rating for a crimp connector to a solid wire (not to a "semi-solid wire like topcoat copper).

Not picking fights, just trying to lay the groundwork for a good power distribution.

[Tim Newport-Peace[_2_]]

At 00:03 27 January 2016, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
>On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:33:54 PM UTC-5,
>wro=
>te:
>> On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:06:49 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002
>ow=
>ner/pilot) wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 10:07:08 AM UTC-5, Dan Daly wrote:
>> > > On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y
>wrot=
>e:
>> > > > On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y
>wro=
>te:
>> > > > > Hello all,
>> > > > >=20
>> > > > > My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a
>cyc=
>lic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you
>get=
>s about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work
>as=
> they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that
>h=
>as been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
>> > > > >=20
>> > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > >=20
>> > > > > 3Y
>> > > >=20
>> > > > Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used
>aircraf=
>t wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two
>yea=
>rs old. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power
>Fl=
>arm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario,
>Oud=
>ie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about
>12=
>..8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3
volts
>=
>when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.
>> > >=20
>> > > Your power budget:
>> > >=20
>> > > Core - 165 mA
>> > > Butterfly - 45 mA
>> > > 302 - 350mA
>> > > B400 - 200 mA
>> > > Oudie 2 - 200 - 220 mA plus 200 mA if battery is being charged
>> > > TT21 - 200 mA
>> > > So about 1180 mA with no radio (1380 mA if Oudie is charging - I
>don'=
>t know if you bring it to the airport charged or not)
>> > >=20
>> > > The radio: Becker 4201 - 70 mA standby 500 mA receive 2.5 A
transmit
>> > > So draw is (worst case, Oudie is charging):
>> > > 1.45 A radio standby
>> > > 1.88 A radio receive (don't know how active your frequency is)
>> > > 3.88 A radio transmit
>> > >=20
>> > > That's a lot of draw for one battery when the radio is
transmitting.
>=
> I have an ammeter that I put in between my battery and the glider to
test
>=
>draw - inexpensive way of looking at what I'm asking the battery to do.
By
>=
>all means, check the wiring, but you might be better off with two
circuits
>=
>(my opinion).
>> > >=20
>> > > An excellent presentation on glider avionic wiring is the "2015
>Nephi=
> OLC Camp presentation", which you can download at:
>http://aviation.derosaw=
>eb.net/presentations/. Excellent in all respects - note the comments on
>wi=
>re size, and circuit breakers... Great work by John DeRosa.
>> >=20
>> > Excellent post, lot's of thought & research.
>> >=20
>> > My only issue is...... why the drop at the radio (in voltage) but not
>t=
>he drop at the battery (in voltage)?
>> > If the total system was overdrawing the battery (or, the drop when
>tran=
>smitting...), wouldn't you think the battery voltage drop would be close
>to=
> the voltage drop at the radio?
>> >=20
>> > Just asking....
>>=20
>> Distribution losses . Wire size, terminations, current protection,
>ground=
> problems, etc.
>> UH
>
>Great reply.... look at this list (not the be all to end all...) to cover
>w=
>ire size vs. ampacity.
>http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
>
>Thus my comment, start at the issue, go backwards until you find the
least
>=
>drop and try to fix it.
>I agree circuit breakers are a bad thing in general.
>
>Breakers & fuses are to protect the wiring, if they help out equipment,
>gre=
>at. DO NOT put in a bigger (higher amp rating breaker/fuse) to "fix"
>trips.=
> Wiring WILL become a "light bulb" likely causing the insulation to start
>a=
> fire. Not my idea of a good scene.....
>
>Not sure how "aircraft wire vs. any other wire affects loss", but it's
>more=
> of a "what will the FAA (or whatever governing body has the say in your
>co=
>untry) say about the wire your're using?".
>Technically you may exceed the reg's, but that does NOT mean you won't
get
>=
>failed.
>Good intentions don't mean bupkiss to the fed's.
>
>Crimp connectors need the proper crimp, my experience is a "Horseshoe
>crimp=
>" far surpasses any other crimp. Period.
>Solid wire is a MAJOR "no-no" unless soldered.
>"So sayeth a facilities guy with thousands of connections to monitor". I
>do=
>n't remember ANY crimp connector mfgr (T&B, AMP, Amphenol, etc.) giving a
>r=
>ating for a crimp connector to a solid wire (not to a "semi-solid wire
>like=
> topcoat copper).
>
>Not picking fights, just trying to lay the groundwork for a good power
>dist=
>ribution.
>
From earlier in this thread, the voltage drop at the radio was 2.5-3v, so
lets use 2.9v. The voltage drop at the battery was reported as 0.4v, so the
voltage dropin the cable is 2.5v.

If we take the current as 4amp, the resistance of the cable between battery
must be 2.5 / 4 = 0.625 ohms!

I don't know what size wire is used, or it's length; but using the table
at http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm clearly see there are bad
connection(s) or the wire is way too small. If it has worked OK before,
then we are looking at connection(s) or end-of-life wire.

[Blake Seese 3Y]

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> 3Y

Well, I finally pulled the panel and started checking connections. I found many loose connections and one case of the insulation being clamped in the contacts. I tinned all wire ends and torqued down all connections. The result is a properly functioning system. There is still a voltage drop at the radio when transmitting but it is now down to less than one volt which seems normal? Also the battery does not discharge as fast as it did before. I left all the instruments on for about six hours and still showed 12.0 volts on the radio display and no cutting out on the radio.

I have to say, the previous owner actually did a very nice job of rewiring the ship, wire size is plenty big, and are clearly labeled, and fused. Seems like the loose connections were just age/vibration, most wire ends were tinned already, I just did the ones that weren't.

Decided to leave it set up just the way it is and run everything off one battery at a time. The ship has two batteries and a switch to select which battery you want. It also has a master switch.

I want to thank everyone for your assistance and advice, this is such a great forum!

Now we just need some lift...

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Friday, January 29, 2016 at 7:43:01 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > 3Y
>
> Well, I finally pulled the panel and started checking connections. I found many loose connections and one case of the insulation being clamped in the contacts. I tinned all wire ends and torqued down all connections. The result is a properly functioning system. There is still a voltage drop at the radio when transmitting but it is now down to less than one volt which seems normal? Also the battery does not discharge as fast as it did before. I left all the instruments on for about six hours and still showed 12.0 volts on the radio display and no cutting out on the radio.
>
> I have to say, the previous owner actually did a very nice job of rewiring the ship, wire size is plenty big, and are clearly labeled, and fused. Seems like the loose connections were just age/vibration, most wire ends were tinned already, I just did the ones that weren't.
>
> Decided to leave it set up just the way it is and run everything off one battery at a time. The ship has two batteries and a switch to select which battery you want. It also has a master switch.
>
> I want to thank everyone for your assistance and advice, this is such a great forum!
>
> Now we just need some lift...

Excellent, thanks for the follow-up. Glad you found obvious issues & resolved them. Sounds like you will have a nice working electrical system from now on.
Yes, your voltage drop (at the radio) sounds much more reasonable although maybe a little high.

PS, did you meter your way through the wiring to find the issues, or did you just "wiggle test" connections? Obviously whatever you did worked, just curious.

[Blake Seese 3Y]

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> 3Y

I did meter through to the extent possible and found consistent voltage through the system up to the connection blocks (one for power and one for ground). I checked the connections, fixed and tightened them and that seemed to do it. The wires on the radio harness seem a little small, but they are short, so I think they are ok. I think it is a stock becker wiring harness.

[JS]

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 8:27:18 AM UTC-8, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > 3Y
>
> I did meter through to the extent possible and found consistent voltage through the system up to the connection blocks (one for power and one for ground). I checked the connections, fixed and tightened them and that seemed to do it. The wires on the radio harness seem a little small, but they are short, so I think they are ok. I think it is a stock becker wiring harness.

Measuring voltage with no load can be deceiving.
Wondering if the tinned wires are used in crimp or screw terminal connections, as opposed to tinned prior to solder connections. Tinned wire in a crimp or terminal strip in my experience is a recipe for future looseness.
Jim

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 11:51:50 AM UTC-5, JS wrote:
>
> Measuring voltage with no load can be deceiving.
> Wondering if the tinned wires are used in crimp or screw terminal connections, as opposed to tinned prior to solder connections. Tinned wire in a crimp or terminal strip in my experience is a recipe for future looseness.
> Jim


Solid or "semi-solid" wire should NOT be used in a crimp connector, none I have ever seen are rated/recommended for these wires.
If you just crimp, you will have issues.
If you crimp AND solder, then you will be fine.
Solder (on any kind of wire) for the electrical connection in a crimp connector is the best way to go. The crimp is the mechanical connection while the solder is the electrical connection.

[Semi-solid wire is a stranded wire with a "tin" overcoat holding the strands together as opposed to stranded tin coated wire which is fine in a crimp connector.]

[Darryl Ramm]

ah no. Do not solder crimp connectors. If you are having to do this to get reliable connections you either do not know what you are doing and/or are using the wrong connectors and crimp tools. Soldering is much less reliable that *well* done crimps and soldering a crimp connector causes issues including solder flow back up the stranded wire making that brittle. Look up any proper instructions for doing professional crimping and this will be made very clear, or get help from a skilled professional and they should kick you out in your arse for such sloppiness.

A properly done crimp connection is a cold-weld joint done under incredible pressure. You will only do these reliably with the right connector and wire guage and a ratcheting or power driven (e.g. As used in manufacturing) swage crimper. Matching the exact manufacturer connector to the crimp tool or replaceable head may be needed to get really good crimps. And in some cases that crimper may cost hundreds of dollars.

[SF]

There was an earlier comment regarding aircraft wire.
This is a reference to the insulation type.
All wire is copper.
Aircraft wire insulation has been chosen for it's fire resistance and not giving off toxic fumes when overheated.
A short in a 12V glider wiring system, not protected by a fuse can result in a copper wire glowing red hot, and burning off the insulation rather quickly. Spend an extra few bucks on the "aircraft" wire.

There is no real penalty for a wire one size larger than you think you need.. It will run cooler and it will have less voltage drop.

Fuses on the battery can be the best thing you ever did when things go wrong. Those batteries look small, but there is a significant amount of stored energy in them that can start a nifty little fire without proper fusing. Given the propensity for composite materials to burn, little fires don't usually stay little for very long.

SF