Mountain waves at KCOS/KFLY

[[email protected]]

Hi folks,

I am a freshly-minted private pilot who trained in Kansas. I am thinking of a flight to Colorado Springs and am looking for advice on winds, mountain wave turbulence, etc. I'm going to be flying a C-172, but another member of this group suggested that this might be the best place for me to get advice anyhow, since you folks probably know more about this stuff than anyone, so my apologies if this is out of place.

In a Reddit discussion at [1], I posed the question about flying from Kansas to KCOS (and we might add in KFLY as an alternative). Knowing that it's not all that far from Pike's Peak, I of course want to stay safe and not get into something that will be above my abilities as a non-mountain-trained private pilot. I will be remaining east of the front range for the entire trip, of course.

Most people on Reddit said I'd have no problem, but one person started a thread [2] giving a much more cautionary note. I'm trying to figure out where the truth is.

I've also completed the AOPA Mountain Flying course. And I found a helpful guide from the FAA [3]. Based on what I have seen and read, I would want to study winds at high-altitude monitoring stations and winds aloft forecasts. Depending on which source you trust, things might be worrisome of they exceed 20, 25, or 40 knots blowing perpendicular to the range.

Can anyone give me some advice on this? How concerned should I be? What should be me go/no-go decision makers during weather brief for avoiding lee wave issues?

Thanks!

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/3spe33/new_ppl_considering_flying_west_to_kcos_colorado/

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/3spe33/new_ppl_considering_flying_west_to_kcos_colorado/cwzz0dz

[3] http://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2015/media/se_topic_15_04.pdf

[Dan Marotta]

You can simply ask the briefer about mountain wave. Note that you have
to have a wind gradient (increasing with altitude) to have a wave and
though not uncommon, mountain wave is not a daily affair. Look at the
winds aloft forecast along the route and, especially near the
mountains. Check the winds on the day before and on the planned day and
don't hesitate to delay for a day or so.

On 11/17/2015 12:15 PM, wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 11:43:50 AM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
>> You can check the wave soaring forecast at http://forecast.weather.gov/product.php?site=BOU&product=SRG&issuedby=BOU
>>
>> You can also ask the gentleman/lady when you get your weather briefing at 1-800-WXBRIEF.
> Sweet. I did not know about that weather product. I'm not sure I know how to interpret everything there; anything in particular I should look for to anticipate mountain wave / rotor action at <4000AGL?
>
> Oddly enough, I've never actually called FSS for a brief, I've used 1800wxbrief.com. Any magic keyword I should use when calling them to get mountain wave advice?
>
> Thanks!

--
Dan, 5J

[JS]

A nice visualisation is something we all used to use before BLIPMAPS.
The old Java FSL sounding plots are now available as HTML, so if you're allergic to coffee you can still use them.

http://rucsoundings.noaa.gov/gwt/

Choose KCOS (or anywhere you want to fly), Latest, and a number of hours (12?) then Load.
As noted by Dan and others you're looking for wind increasing with altitude, not varying much in direction from perpendicular to the ridge. There will likely be a temperature inversion down low. Winds below that will be quite different, not really a factor in the wave but may mean easier ground handling.
Jim

[son_of_flubber]

Does east of the Front Range get low altitude rotor without wave conditions? Or does that only happen between two ridges with a height differential?

[JS]

At the old Black Forest another pilot came back from his orientation flight reporting:
Almost instantly, the horizon was going up and down, and the towplane was inverted relative to the glider. They both completed the roll on tow, and continued to the wave.

Rotor happens everywhere. Wave is optional.
Jim


On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 1:23:47 PM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Does east of the Front Range get low altitude rotor without wave conditions? Or does that only happen between two ridges with a height differential?

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

What happened to Black Forest glider port. I remember the adds in Soaring years ago

[Christopher Giacomo]

On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 10:37:28 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I am a freshly-minted private pilot who trained in Kansas. I am thinking of a flight to Colorado Springs and am looking for advice on winds, mountain wave turbulence, etc. I'm going to be flying a C-172, but another member of this group suggested that this might be the best place for me to get advice anyhow, since you folks probably know more about this stuff than anyone, so my apologies if this is out of place.
>
> In a Reddit discussion at [1], I posed the question about flying from Kansas to KCOS (and we might add in KFLY as an alternative). Knowing that it's not all that far from Pike's Peak, I of course want to stay safe and not get into something that will be above my abilities as a non-mountain-trained private pilot. I will be remaining east of the front range for the entire trip, of course.
>
> Most people on Reddit said I'd have no problem, but one person started a thread [2] giving a much more cautionary note. I'm trying to figure out where the truth is.
>
> I've also completed the AOPA Mountain Flying course. And I found a helpful guide from the FAA [3]. Based on what I have seen and read, I would want to study winds at high-altitude monitoring stations and winds aloft forecasts. Depending on which source you trust, things might be worrisome of they exceed 20, 25, or 40 knots blowing perpendicular to the range.
>
> Can anyone give me some advice on this? How concerned should I be? What should be me go/no-go decision makers during weather brief for avoiding lee wave issues?
>
> Thanks!
>
> [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/3spe33/new_ppl_considering_flying_west_to_kcos_colorado/
>
> [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/3spe33/new_ppl_considering_flying_west_to_kcos_colorado/cwzz0dz
>
> [3] http://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2015/media/se_topic_15_04.pdf

The old black forest closed, the new Black Forest Soaring Society is located up at Kelly Airpark, about 30 minutes north of the springs. If there are no wave conditions present, the turbulence just east of the mountains is usually light to moderate, but can be sporting even on seemingly benign days when the suns out strong. You do also need to be mindful of the incredible sink potential just east of the mountains. I found myself in 22kts of sink one day, barely making it back to the pattern after bee-lining it from a 3k tow no more than 2 miles away (Just west of USAFA, NE of Pikes Peak). The front range can get quite sporting at times.

[Dan Marotta]

Bought up by a developer and shut down. The club split into the new
Black Forest Soaring Society at Kelly Air Park (CO15) east of Larkspur,
and Colorado Soaring Association at Owl Canyon Glider Port north of
Wellington, CO.

BTW, the old Black Forest had not seen any development up until I left
there in 2001. The grass runway was still visible.

On 11/17/2015 3:04 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> What happened to Black Forest glider port. I remember the adds in Soaring years ago

--
Dan, 5J

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 11/18/2015 7:53 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Bought up by a developer and shut down. The club split into the new Black
> Forest Soaring Society at Kelly Air Park (CO15) east of Larkspur, and
> Colorado Soaring Association at Owl Canyon Glider Port north of Wellington,
> CO.
>
> BTW, the old Black Forest had not seen any development up until I left
> there in 2001. The grass runway was still visible.
>
> On 11/17/2015 3:04 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> What happened to Black Forest glider port. I remember the adds in
>> Soaring years ago
>
> -- Dan, 5J

....rode by on CO-24 this past spring after dusk; too dark to see anything. The
vehicle consensus was there may by now be houses on the southern half of the
property...which is what Google Earth shows in a shot dated 10/22/2011.

38 degrees 58 minutes 07.44N
104 degrees 40 minutes 39.24W

Bob W.