What will ADS-B technology due to sailplane racing?

[[email protected]]

Please accept this as an exercise intended for educating the upcoming ADS-B mandate.

So we have a purely hypothetical late model sailplane registered FAA "EXPERMENTAL". It is equipped with a state of the art 5" in-panel flight computer (your favorite brand),a Mode S, 1090ES ADS-B out capable transponder such as the Trig TT-22 and a PowerFlarm.

Today, my understanding is if your sailplane is registered as "EXPERMENTAL", then you would be allowed to install non-TSO'd ADS-B equipment "meeting the PERFORMANCE requirements in TSO-C-166a" (72 FR 56947, 56971). The benefit here being lower cost non TSO'd hardware and not bearing the expense of FAA 337 STC installation.

So to the above, one would have to add an ADS-B "transceiver" which broadcasts your mode S transponder info to anyone capable of receiving it. More than likely, this ADS-B transceiver would process information out and in. And, more than likely this ADS-B transceiver would not use any existing "soaring" GPS and would include or require yet another GSP with WAAS certification. An example of such an ADS-B "in and out" transceiver exists being the NavWorx ADS600-EXP having a MSRP of $1299.00. See: http://www.navworx.com/products-ADS600-EXP.php

Currently, soaring flight computers are not ADS-B "in" capable but an iPad mini could be mounted and with the correct app, you could monitor all ADS-B "in" traffic and weather information. By 2020, its not a stretch to expect the latest flight computers to include WAAS certified GPS and ADS-B in and out capability. Where's that going to take us?

How do you think all this will impact sailplane racing and its current rules? How will the rules change to deal with all the "at instant" information? Will ADS-B "in and out" affect the use of PowerFlarm and eventually replace it?

In soaring years, I'm as old as dirt. My experience goes all the way back to the controversy of wooden versus plastic airplanes. I've been through all the wars and just like the current open versus stealth PowerFlarm argument, their have been some real doozies and many bloody noses. We all agree, more or less, you cannot ignore technology nor can you circumvent it with rules. Sailplane racing used to be a weekend pleasure sport for gentlemen pilots, but certainly that's not true today. It all changed...in my opinion for the worse...when GPS entered the cockpit and the digital age commenced. A good compass and chop sticks on a sectional was more challenging and certainly more fun.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 12:09:11 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Please accept this as an exercise intended for educating the upcoming ADS-B mandate.
>
> So we have a purely hypothetical late model sailplane registered FAA "EXPERMENTAL". It is equipped with a state of the art 5" in-panel flight computer (your favorite brand),a Mode S, 1090ES ADS-B out capable transponder such as the Trig TT-22 and a PowerFlarm.
>
> Today, my understanding is if your sailplane is registered as "EXPERMENTAL", then you would be allowed to install non-TSO'd ADS-B equipment "meeting the PERFORMANCE requirements in TSO-C-166a" (72 FR 56947, 56971). The benefit here being lower cost non TSO'd hardware and not bearing the expense of FAA 337 STC installation.
>
> So to the above, one would have to add an ADS-B "transceiver" which broadcasts your mode S transponder info to anyone capable of receiving it. More than likely, this ADS-B transceiver would process information out and in. And, more than likely this ADS-B transceiver would not use any existing "soaring" GPS and would include or require yet another GSP with WAAS certification. An example of such an ADS-B "in and out" transceiver exists being the NavWorx ADS600-EXP having a MSRP of $1299.00. See: http://www.navworx.com/products-ADS600-EXP.php
>
> Currently, soaring flight computers are not ADS-B "in" capable but an iPad mini could be mounted and with the correct app, you could monitor all ADS-B "in" traffic and weather information. By 2020, its not a stretch to expect the latest flight computers to include WAAS certified GPS and ADS-B in and out capability. Where's that going to take us?
>
> How do you think all this will impact sailplane racing and its current rules? How will the rules change to deal with all the "at instant" information? Will ADS-B "in and out" affect the use of PowerFlarm and eventually replace it?
>
> In soaring years, I'm as old as dirt. My experience goes all the way back to the controversy of wooden versus plastic airplanes. I've been through all the wars and just like the current open versus stealth PowerFlarm argument, their have been some real doozies and many bloody noses. We all agree, more or less, you cannot ignore technology nor can you circumvent it with rules. Sailplane racing used to be a weekend pleasure sport for gentlemen pilots, but certainly that's not true today. It all changed...in my opinion for the worse...when GPS entered the cockpit and the digital age commenced. A good compass and chop sticks on a sectional was more challenging and certainly more fun.

It will probably make it AWESOME

[Darryl Ramm]

what will another repetitive thread on r.a.s. do for anything? All this stuff has been covered recently in other threads. We really don't need yet another thread full of crap on this.

[smfidler]

From the product description...I got a chuckle:

"AutoStealth(tm) Mode:
The UAT technology is the only ADS-B equipment that will allow for privacy. Normally, ADS-B devices transmit the aircrafts ICAO number, a unique code that is assigned by the FAA to each aircraft. When flying VFR however, there is no need to let the FAA know who you are. The ADS600-EXP randomizes the ICAO whenever the squawk code is set to 1200. In addition, the N-Number of the aircraft configured is changed to "N0", an unassigned N-Number."

[[email protected]]

>Currently, soaring flight computers are not ADS-B "in" capable

Wrong:
http://www.air-avionics.com/air/index.php/en/products/collision-avoidance/trx-1000-ads-b-tiny-size-tiny-price

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

So why is it that the GPS from the Power Flarm unit cannot be used for the GPS engine to run ADS-B out connected to the Trig or similar transponder? Would this not give ADS-B out, without having yet another GPS unit to power?


On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 10:09:11 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Please accept this as an exercise intended for educating the upcoming ADS-B mandate.
>
> So we have a purely hypothetical late model sailplane registered FAA "EXPERMENTAL". It is equipped with a state of the art 5" in-panel flight computer (your favorite brand),a Mode S, 1090ES ADS-B out capable transponder such as the Trig TT-22 and a PowerFlarm.
>
> Today, my understanding is if your sailplane is registered as "EXPERMENTAL", then you would be allowed to install non-TSO'd ADS-B equipment "meeting the PERFORMANCE requirements in TSO-C-166a" (72 FR 56947, 56971). The benefit here being lower cost non TSO'd hardware and not bearing the expense of FAA 337 STC installation.
>
> So to the above, one would have to add an ADS-B "transceiver" which broadcasts your mode S transponder info to anyone capable of receiving it. More than likely, this ADS-B transceiver would process information out and in. And, more than likely this ADS-B transceiver would not use any existing "soaring" GPS and would include or require yet another GSP with WAAS certification. An example of such an ADS-B "in and out" transceiver exists being the NavWorx ADS600-EXP having a MSRP of $1299.00. See: http://www.navworx.com/products-ADS600-EXP.php
>
> Currently, soaring flight computers are not ADS-B "in" capable but an iPad mini could be mounted and with the correct app, you could monitor all ADS-B "in" traffic and weather information. By 2020, its not a stretch to expect the latest flight computers to include WAAS certified GPS and ADS-B in and out capability. Where's that going to take us?
>
> How do you think all this will impact sailplane racing and its current rules? How will the rules change to deal with all the "at instant" information? Will ADS-B "in and out" affect the use of PowerFlarm and eventually replace it?
>
> In soaring years, I'm as old as dirt. My experience goes all the way back to the controversy of wooden versus plastic airplanes. I've been through all the wars and just like the current open versus stealth PowerFlarm argument, their have been some real doozies and many bloody noses. We all agree, more or less, you cannot ignore technology nor can you circumvent it with rules. Sailplane racing used to be a weekend pleasure sport for gentlemen pilots, but certainly that's not true today. It all changed...in my opinion for the worse...when GPS entered the cockpit and the digital age commenced. A good compass and chop sticks on a sectional was more challenging and certainly more fun.

[Dave Walsh]

At 07:30 05 January 2016, wrote:
>>Currently, soaring flight computers are not ADS-B "in"
capable
>
>Wrong:
>http://www.air-
avionics.com/air/index.php/en/products/collision-
avoidance/trx-1000-ads-b-tiny-size-tiny-price
>

And AirAvionics/Garrecht TRX-2000? Must be others too.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 5:00:07 AM UTC-8, Dave Walsh wrote:
> At 07:30 05 January 2016, wrote:
> >>Currently, soaring flight computers are not ADS-B "in"
> capable
> >
> >Wrong:
> >http://www.air-
> avionics.com/air/index.php/en/products/collision-
> avoidance/trx-1000-ads-b-tiny-size-tiny-price
> >
>
> And AirAvionics/Garrecht TRX-2000? Must be others too.

Sure are.

Almost every single statement in the original post is seriously confused and technically lawed. Which is very disappointing to see after so much past discussion in r.a.s. about ADS-B and FLARM technology. So seriously flawed that it really does not deserve a response.

But to this point, clearly there are several ADS-B In/1090ES In solutions for gliders, all coming out of Europe. And there is plenty of support for displaying 1090ES traffic on glider flight computers and soaring software, all based on FLARM's widely used data port protocol. But the the USA, effectively every PowerFLARM sold already displays 1090ES traffic, and can display that on any flight computer/soaring software that supports FLARM's dataport protocol. Anybody who owns a PowerFLARM in the USA should know this. Limitations of PowerFLARM's ADS-B capabilities have been well discussed on r.a.s, starting with it is not a UAT receiver... but it is what is widely utilized in gliders in the USA.

And most surprisingly the original post goes back to talking about UAT Out. WTF would anybody do that in a hypothetical glider that already has a 1090ES Out capable transponder installed? UAT Out is bad news for gliders (by all means do UAT In if you want FIS-B or are a geek wanting to play with stuff) the glider community in the USA is focused on 1090ES because of PowerFLARM adoption. No sane glider pilot would install UAT Out ahead of 1090ES Out, and once you have 1090ES Out there is likely no worthwhile benefit of adding UAT Out. So can we just drop all the UAT Out crap. And there is very real possibility that gliders will lose their ADS-B Out carriage exemption, and if that happens I expect/hope that regulations will allow TABS carriage as a means of compliance, And TABS is 1090ES Out, not UAT. And TAB regulations may well change GPS complaince requirements. So can we get off the UAT crap again, and stop re-asking questions that are 1. know and discussed here for current regulations and 2. possibly going to significantly change with TABS installation regulations. If there are questions about this stuff, try searching past discussions on r.a.s.

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 1:30:19 AM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> So why is it that the GPS from the Power Flarm unit cannot be used for the GPS engine to run ADS-B out connected to the Trig or similar transponder? Would this not give ADS-B out, without having yet another GPS unit to power?

Before Darryl get too irritated, here's why: ADS-B Out REQUIRES an FAA-approved, WAAS TSO'd GPS engine that provides a lot more information (health, etc) that a plain old consumer grade GPS, which is what the PF has. The TABS initiative MAY lead to "compliant" GPS sources for ADS-B out in gliders, experimental, and UAVs at a lower price point. See other lengthy threads on RAS for all the nauseating details about this.

So: PF right now will display 1090ES ADS-B out aircraft and non-directional Mode C or S transponders. Unless you have ADS-B OUT, adding ADS-B IN will only add UAT ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft if you are within 15 miles of another ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft (and PF will already show them because they have to have a mode C or S transponder anyway - but as non-directional "PCAS" targets).

As for the TRX-1000 mentioned above, it is probably a 1090ES ADS-B receiver designed to be used with European FLARM; as such it doesn't add anything to what a full-up PF already does. I doubt it receives UAT ADS-B (why should it? Europe doesn't use UAT).

Kirk
66

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 10:50:37 AM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 1:30:19 AM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > So why is it that the GPS from the Power Flarm unit cannot be used for the GPS engine to run ADS-B out connected to the Trig or similar transponder? Would this not give ADS-B out, without having yet another GPS unit to power?
>
> Before Darryl get too irritated, here's why: ADS-B Out REQUIRES an FAA-approved, WAAS TSO'd GPS engine that provides a lot more information (health, etc) that a plain old consumer grade GPS, which is what the PF has. The TABS initiative MAY lead to "compliant" GPS sources for ADS-B out in gliders, experimental, and UAVs at a lower price point. See other lengthy threads on RAS for all the nauseating details about this.
>
> So: PF right now will display 1090ES ADS-B out aircraft and non-directional Mode C or S transponders. Unless you have ADS-B OUT, adding ADS-B IN will only add UAT ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft if you are within 15 miles of another ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft (and PF will already show them because they have to have a mode C or S transponder anyway - but as non-directional "PCAS" targets).
>
> As for the TRX-1000 mentioned above, it is probably a 1090ES ADS-B receiver designed to be used with European FLARM; as such it doesn't add anything to what a full-up PF already does. I doubt it receives UAT ADS-B (why should it? Europe doesn't use UAT).
>
> Kirk
> 66

Oops, too late! ;^)

[[email protected]]

Darryl...I personally consider you to be the definitive "voice" of PowerFlarm/ADS-B on R.A.S. and certainly respect your knowledge of soaring "communication" technology. My apologies for obviously upsetting you.

Many of us are not blessed with leading edge understanding of this technology and are not capable to ask "informed to the moment" questions. With my hand raised, I'm at the front of this line. As stated in the opening line of my OP, my intent was an effort to learn. Certainly, there are many of us out here like me. So, if anyone learns anything I hope it is the OP should not have to "take a beating" to get the answer to a "reasonable" question. Otherwise, the quest to learn will cease.