Position source for ADS-B

[[email protected]]

Has anyone successfully installed a Garmin GPS 20A as a position source with a Trig transponder in an experimental glider?

The $845 cost for the GPS (+antenna) seems reasonable for a turnkey solution for those of us with Trig transponders already installed.


Mark

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 9:52:11 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Has anyone successfully installed a Garmin GPS 20A as a position source with a Trig transponder in an experimental glider?
>
> The $845 cost for the GPS (+antenna) seems reasonable for a turnkey solution for those of us with Trig transponders already installed.
>
>
> Mark

I would contact Trig support. They are usually extremely helpful.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 12:52:11 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Has anyone successfully installed a Garmin GPS 20A as a position source with a Trig transponder in an experimental glider?
>
> The $845 cost for the GPS (+antenna) seems reasonable for a turnkey solution for those of us with Trig transponders already installed.
>
>
> Mark

If you are aware of other qualified non-TSO'd WAAS GPS "equal" to the Garmin 20A, please list.

[[email protected]]

I am not aware of any other non-TSO position sources that are documented to meet the specifications that do not include a UAT transceiver. That is what makes this particular device so attractive. I am assuming that since trig supports the various garmin navigators, it is very likely that this will be plug and play.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 6:52:53 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> I am not aware of any other non-TSO position sources that are documented to meet the specifications that do not include a UAT transceiver. That is what makes this particular device so attractive. I am assuming that since trig supports the various garmin navigators, it is very likely that this will be plug and play.

Trig currently partners with Accord Technology to resell their NexNav TSO'ed GPS source as the trig TN-70. NexNav have announced directions with their own non-TSO products (actually TABS class B compliant).

Did somebody already suggest contacting Trig? Ah yes I did.

The what GPS thingy can/should I use world may change significantly if glider TABS installation and carriage regulations happen, which will likely change availability of GPS sources (including what could be used with Trig TT-21 and TT-22 Transponders). Did somebody suggest waiting if you can and see what happens? Ah yes I did. :-)

Again, be careful of what you are doing for what purpose. Adding 1090ES Our with any GPS source will make you visible to PowerFLARM at longer distances. Adding 1090ES Out with any GPS source won't help change what your own PowerFLARM receives. Adding 1090ES Out with a suitable TSO'ed or "meets performance of TSO" GPS source will make you visible to ATC and aircraft with certified ADS-B In. Adding (properly configured) 1090ES Out with a suitable TSO'ed or "meets performance of TSO" GPS source will let you receive TIS-B and ADS-R data from the FAA ground infrastructure--if you have a separate suitable receiver and display (not a PowerFLARM)--non-compliant GPS sources have done that as well in the past, but that is going way.

Now while gliders have exemptions from ADS-B Our carriage regulation, if you decide to install ADS-B out you still have to comply with install regulations. Experimental gliders can do any of the above, but they absolutely have to be correctly configured to report the correct GPS source specs and need to be tested. Certified gliders needs a field approval/337 for a ADS-B Out install and must currently use a suitable TSO'ed GPS source. Talk to your glider A&P or maybe FSDO for anything ADS-B Out with certified gliders. The FSDO will likely only approve a GPS and transponder combination the vendors document and ideally have previously done an STC for (even if not in a glider). Yes I know a 337 is the opposite of an STC, but the FAA want previous STCs in this process to prove GPS and ADS-B Out compatibility, from everything from software to wiring harnesses/connection documentation. Again I expect all this may change with TABS regulations. If you are not qualified and/or don't know what you are doing please do not mess with ADS-B Out anything, it's safety related, and the FAA is watching you. And again the vendor is the place to go for advice/documentation/help.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 4:28:27 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 6:52:53 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > I am not aware of any other non-TSO position sources that are documented to meet the specifications that do not include a UAT transceiver. That is what makes this particular device so attractive. I am assuming that since trig supports the various garmin navigators, it is very likely that this will be plug and play.
>
> Trig currently partners with Accord Technology to resell their NexNav TSO'ed GPS source as the trig TN-70. NexNav have announced directions with their own non-TSO products (actually TABS class B compliant).
>
> Did somebody already suggest contacting Trig? Ah yes I did.
>
> The what GPS thingy can/should I use world may change significantly if glider TABS installation and carriage regulations happen, which will likely change availability of GPS sources (including what could be used with Trig TT-21 and TT-22 Transponders). Did somebody suggest waiting if you can and see what happens? Ah yes I did. :-)
>
> Again, be careful of what you are doing for what purpose. Adding 1090ES Our with any GPS source will make you visible to PowerFLARM at longer distances. Adding 1090ES Out with any GPS source won't help change what your own PowerFLARM receives. Adding 1090ES Out with a suitable TSO'ed or "meets performance of TSO" GPS source will make you visible to ATC and aircraft with certified ADS-B In. Adding (properly configured) 1090ES Out with a suitable TSO'ed or "meets performance of TSO" GPS source will let you receive TIS-B and ADS-R data from the FAA ground infrastructure--if you have a separate suitable receiver and display (not a PowerFLARM)--non-compliant GPS sources have done that as well in the past, but that is going way.
>
> Now while gliders have exemptions from ADS-B Our carriage regulation, if you decide to install ADS-B out you still have to comply with install regulations. Experimental gliders can do any of the above, but they absolutely have to be correctly configured to report the correct GPS source specs and need to be tested. Certified gliders needs a field approval/337 for a ADS-B Out install and must currently use a suitable TSO'ed GPS source. Talk to your glider A&P or maybe FSDO for anything ADS-B Out with certified gliders. The FSDO will likely only approve a GPS and transponder combination the vendors document and ideally have previously done an STC for (even if not in a glider). Yes I know a 337 is the opposite of an STC, but the FAA want previous STCs in this process to prove GPS and ADS-B Out compatibility, from everything from software to wiring harnesses/connection documentation. Again I expect all this may change with TABS regulations. If you are not qualified and/or don't know what you are doing please do not mess with ADS-B Out anything, it's safety related, and the FAA is watching you. And again the vendor is the place to go for advice/documentation/help.

Thank you Darryl...very solid and informative information.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 4:28:27 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:

"you still have to comply with install regulations. Experimental gliders can do any of the above, but they absolutely have to be correctly configured"

What Darryl said above is very important. That was the reason I installed FreeFlight 1201 with Trig 22. I had access to full installation instructions, including configuration for this particular combo. The documentation was produced for STC purposes and of course tested. Yes it was more expensive.

There is more to it than just connecting a few wires.