Contest participation

[Christopher Giacomo]

As i was looking through the pilot rankings on the SSA website tonight, i counted just under 500 pilots with any registration in a contest in the last 3 years. Wiki claims that the SSA has over 10,000 members (understand not all of them fly

[Christopher Giacomo]

On Friday, January 29, 2016 at 9:06:21 PM UTC-5, Christopher Giacomo wrote:
> As i was looking through the pilot rankings on the SSA website tonight, i counted just under 500 pilots with any registration in a contest in the last 3 years. Wiki claims that the SSA has over 10,000 members (understand not all of them fly

But that still means that less than 5% of active members are even showing up to a contest? seems strange that such a large proportion of conversation and emphasis on RAS is focused on such a small segment of the sport.

[Jim White[_3_]]

At 02:09 30 January 2016, Christopher Giacomo wrote:
>On Friday, January 29, 2016 at 9:06:21 PM UTC-5, Christopher Giacomo
wrote:
>> As i was looking through the pilot rankings on the SSA website tonight,
i
>counted just under 500 pilots with any registration in a contest in the
>last 3 years. Wiki claims that the SSA has over 10,000 members
(understand
>not all of them fly
>
>But that still means that less than 5% of active members are even showing
>up to a contest? seems strange that such a large proportion of
conversation
>and emphasis on RAS is focused on such a small segment of the sport.
>
Gliding competition is a bit like sex. Until you have done it a couple of
times it can seem a bit intimidating. The difference is you never get too
old to compete with dignity.

You have to be less elitist and simplify the rules if you want people to
try it.

[Bob Pasker]

as a glider pilot with some XC experience, and no contest experience, I can you what keeps me from contests: there is no 'on ramp'.

the only way that I know to participate in contests is to participate in contests.

What we really need is a way for people to learn about contests before actually entering one:

1. ground school -- 1 day covering eligibility, rules, launch & land procedures, strategy & tactics, traffic, equipment, etc

2. flight school -- non-competitive contests in 2-seaters

3. newbie buddies -- when you show up at a contest, team up with an experienced pilot who will be your mentor for the duration of the contest

Reno Air races has pylon school: http://airrace.org/event/racing/rookie-school/

--bob

[Dan Marotta]

Bob,

There are many "fun" contests held by soaring clubs around the country.
These are a good venue to "get your feet wet". Sometimes they're listed
in the back of _Soaring Magazine_. They might also be listed as "cross
country" camps. At these, there are daily safety and weather briefings
as well as assigned tasks to fly, if you choose. The Albuquerque
Soaring Club at Moriarty usually sponsors a "fun camp" when they're not
running a sanctioned contest.

Good luck!

Dan

On 1/30/2016 8:59 AM, Bob Pasker wrote:
> as a glider pilot with some XC experience, and no contest experience, I can you what keeps me from contests: there is no 'on ramp'.
>
> the only way that I know to participate in contests is to participate in contests.
>
> What we really need is a way for people to learn about contests before actually entering one:
>
> 1. ground school -- 1 day covering eligibility, rules, launch & land procedures, strategy & tactics, traffic, equipment, etc
>
> 2. flight school -- non-competitive contests in 2-seaters
>
> 3. newbie buddies -- when you show up at a contest, team up with an experienced pilot who will be your mentor for the duration of the contest
>
> Reno Air races has pylon school: http://airrace.org/event/racing/rookie-school/
>
> --bob

--
Dan, 5J

[JS]

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 7:59:45 AM UTC-8, Bob Pasker wrote:
> as a glider pilot with some XC experience, and no contest experience, I can you what keeps me from contests: there is no 'on ramp'.
>
> the only way that I know to participate in contests is to participate in contests.
>
> What we really need is a way for people to learn about contests before actually entering one:
>
> 1. ground school -- 1 day covering eligibility, rules, launch & land procedures, strategy & tactics, traffic, equipment, etc
>
> 2. flight school -- non-competitive contests in 2-seaters
>
> 3. newbie buddies -- when you show up at a contest, team up with an experienced pilot who will be your mentor for the duration of the contest
>
> Reno Air races has pylon school: http://airrace.org/event/racing/rookie-school/
>
> --bob

Good points.

Perhaps the tasks with times to finish are most intimidating to me... What's this finishing early crap? Isn't it a race?

There are likely a couple of places that do contest training in the USA. Hopefully someone will point them out.
I know that training camps are run at Lake Keepit for "Nationals" type competition and "Grand Prix" competition. Quite a few entries that you'd call "newbies" are now regular contest participants. One "newbie" recently won a day.
But I've never been within 5000 miles of participating in one.

There must be hundreds of XC pilots who have no idea what terms like MAT, start time interval, etc. are.
Jim

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 10:59:45 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
> as a glider pilot with some XC experience, and no contest experience,
> I can you what keeps me from contests: there is no 'on ramp'.

Start by volunteering as crew for an experienced pilot.
You'll learn a lot about soaring as well as contests!

Also consider training camps (I believe there's one coming
up at Seminole after the Seniors).

Have fun!
Best Regards, Dave

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 10:59:45 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
> as a glider pilot with some XC experience, and no contest experience, I can you what keeps me from contests: there is no 'on ramp'.
>
> the only way that I know to participate in contests is to participate in contests.
>
> What we really need is a way for people to learn about contests before actually entering one:
>
> 1. ground school -- 1 day covering eligibility, rules, launch & land procedures, strategy & tactics, traffic, equipment, etc
>
> 2. flight school -- non-competitive contests in 2-seaters
>
> 3. newbie buddies -- when you show up at a contest, team up with an experienced pilot who will be your mentor for the duration of the contest
>
> Reno Air races has pylon school: http://airrace.org/event/racing/rookie-school/
>
> --bob

Hi Bob,

All that has been going on for literal decades in the Eastern US, where are you? (You don't show up on SSA.org)

Every single contest I've flown has had mentors available for the guys that want 'em, even the Nationals.

Some venues are better than others, some years are better than others, but there are a reasonable number of opportunities here for the guy who is motivated.

As far as rules complexity goes... that's a red herring. The scoring rules are complex (handicaps, devaluing for incompletions and short tasks, etc.) but the flying rules are simple enough. There's a "competition guide" which covers all you as a pilot need to know to compete without problems or penalties, that is very much simpler than the rules themselves.

best regards,

Evan Ludeman / T8

[Craig Funston]

Bob,
Come join us in Ephrata at the Dust Up. May 28 thru 30.

In addition to cross country training, there's an informal contest to introduce people to contest flying if they want. All in a supportive environment with great facilities and lots of safe off-field options. Here's last year's webpage. http://www.thedustup.info/ New info should be up soon.

7Q

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 10:59:45 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
> as a glider pilot with some XC experience, and no contest experience, I can you what keeps me from contests: there is no 'on ramp'.
>
> the only way that I know to participate in contests is to participate in contests.
>
> What we really need is a way for people to learn about contests before actually entering one:
>
> 1. ground school -- 1 day covering eligibility, rules, launch & land procedures, strategy & tactics, traffic, equipment, etc
>
> 2. flight school -- non-competitive contests in 2-seaters
>
> 3. newbie buddies -- when you show up at a contest, team up with an experienced pilot who will be your mentor for the duration of the contest
>
> Reno Air races has pylon school: http://airrace.org/event/racing/rookie-school/
>
> --bob

We will be doing 1 and 3 at Region 1. Rookie school and active mentoring.
I don't know what 2 is. I assume this is cross country training you may be describing. There may be some possibility of contest riding if some seats are open in Bus class.
Region 2 will be having an OLC class which is likely to be mostly cross country camp.
Looks like it is not quite as dire as you think.
UH

[Andrew Ainslie]

I remember my early contests. The cameras that you had to master, the maps.... it's become way easier. And the mentoring back then was fantastic.

I then disappeared for 14 years. When I reappeared, the rules had utterly changed. While I was initially intimidated, I rapidly realized it was WAY easier than the old camera days. The computer does everything for you. Yes, you have to understand what it's doing, byt a couple of evenings reading books and manuals will let you know. And before anyone complains about cost... an Ilec SN 10 is an excellent instrument, and people on this website (including me) can't give them away!!!)

Mentorship has always been amazing. Just show up to the first meeting and let them know you'd like a mentor, and a bunch of world class pilots will line up to help you.

And remember, you don't have to win. you don't even have to finish! Just fly the first few times. So what if you miss a turnpoint, or leave early, or come back early? As long as you fly safe, no one will criticize you. In fact, if after three days, you feel tired, just take a day off!

There is absolutely a "ramp up". Start by just flying along and making a few mistakes. Not safety mistakes, those of course are not excusable, but they're easy to avoid. Come home high, come home early, miss an intimidation turnpoint, land at an airport if the return looks intimidating and miss the next day, and you CAN ramp up over time.

And you'll find the competitors unbelievably eager to help you. I can't think of another keenly competitive sport where the competitors are so friendly immediately after the end of the day's contest.

[Giaco]

This is quite the response to a topic i tried to delete seconds after starting it...
Bob, I do completely agree with you that the "on ramp" is by far the hardest part of getting contest participation. While the other responses are very well and valid points, I appreciate your perspective that the non-participating 95% sees too many obstacles to jumping into contest flying.

Based on the responses below, I think possibly part of the "on ramp" problem comes from the disconnect between the club a regional/national SSA levels.. While there are lots of people at these events and contests to help you into contest flying, you must first already know that going to one is worth your vacation time and money, which is the leap I believe most pilots (including myself) don't make.

This topic is actually the reason that I started asking around as to how we might bring back the Region 1 contest (that UH and T8 mentioned), and make it a more relaxed learning experience, and try to make it something that the region clubs would start to come to as a group, to help bridge that first gap.

So I'm sure yes, you can just sign up for a camp in the back of SSA magazine, but after 10 years in the sport, as a single data point, I never have. I think it takes club encouragement and peer/mentor pressure for people to make that step on to the "on ramp", and the clubs with those people probably also see much higher ratios of their members in contest than those without..

That is a large part of why we are hosting R1 this year, so if you can make the trip, I would encourage you to sign up (maybe with another club member or two).

Chris

[Jim White[_3_]]

At 16:41 30 January 2016, Tango Eight wrote:
>On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 10:59:45 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
>> as a glider pilot with some XC experience, and no contest experience, I
>c=
>an you what keeps me from contests: there is no 'on ramp'. =20
>>=20
>> the only way that I know to participate in contests is to participate
in
>=
>contests.=20
>>=20
>> What we really need is a way for people to learn about contests before
>ac=
>tually entering one:
>>=20
>> 1. ground school -- 1 day covering eligibility, rules, launch & land
>proc=
>edures, strategy & tactics, traffic, equipment, etc
>>=20
>> 2. flight school -- non-competitive contests in 2-seaters=20
>>=20
>> 3. newbie buddies -- when you show up at a contest, team up with an
>exper=
>ienced pilot who will be your mentor for the duration of the contest
>>=20
>> Reno Air races has pylon school:
>http://airrace.org/event/racing/rookie-s=
>chool/
>>=20
>> --bob
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>All that has been going on for literal decades in the Eastern US, where
>are=
> you? (You don't show up on SSA.org)
>
>Every single contest I've flown has had mentors available for the guys
>that=
> want 'em, even the Nationals.
>
>Some venues are better than others, some years are better than others,
but
>=
>there are a reasonable number of opportunities here for the guy who is
>moti=
>vated.
>
>As far as rules complexity goes... that's a red herring. The scoring
>rules=
> are complex (handicaps, devaluing for incompletions and short tasks,
>etc.)=
> but the flying rules are simple enough. There's a "competition guide"
>whi=
>ch covers all you as a pilot need to know to compete without problems or
>pe=
>nalties, that is very much simpler than the rules themselves.
>
>best regards,
>
>Evan Ludeman / T8
>
Evan, your argument has a massive hole in it. Ask yourself why, if these
great things have 'been going on for literal decades', there is still a
problem?

[Bob Pasker]

thanks for all the info. I read Soaring and r.a.s religiously, and had no idea. I went to thermal camp last year at Air Sailing, and they also have an XC camp and wave camp.

Let me recap what I found.

ABQ Soaring -- nothing on their website http://www.abqsoaring.org/calendar.php?year=2016

Seminole Lake -- SSA calendar has "Seminole Lake Wave Camp," which has only the date and a person to contact. No info on the Seminole Lake website itself http://www.soarfl.com/Upcoming_Events.html

Lake Keepit 4 day xc -- http://www.keepitsoaring.com/LKSC/index.php/courses-and-training/4-day-xc-weekends

Ephrata -- http://www.thedustup.info/

Region 1 -- http://www.flynesa.com/Region1/ "The Bus class is intended to encourage clubs to bring a two seater, and more importantly bring members new to contests. Generally, this class features an experienced instructor pilot and a rotating cast of copilots new to the racing scene. What a great way to contribute to the growth of cross-country and competition soaring!"

Region 2 -- http://tinyurl.com/h8g64gz We will have an "OLC" class for pilots who want to participate but not fly in the normal regional contest classes. Pilots may select their own tasks or fly the FAI or Sports task. Flights will be scored using the OLC and daily best performances will be recognized. Coaching and mentoring will be available. If you are interested in flying the OLC Class, just register as a Guest and I'll contact you individually with other details.

some other's i found:

Air Sailing -- http://www.airsailing.org/xc_camp2016.html

Nelphi -- google finds old XC camp pages, but nothing up for 2016 yet http://www.utahsoaring.org/

[son_of_flubber]

For both OLC Camps and Traditional Race Contests:

What is PowerFlarm deployment rate?

Does it vary by contest/region?

Do some classes of contest have higher or lower deployment rates?

Does PowerFlarm have more value (real or perceived) in Western vs. Eastern regions?

Does mandatory PowerFlarm keep some people away?

Does non-mandatory PowerFlarm keep some people away?

Does low deployment rate of PowerFlarm at a contest keep people away?

Has Powerflarm been deployed widely at any clubs/contests/classes preemptively before a midair occurs?

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 6:30:04 AM UTC-5, Jim White wrote:

> Evan, your argument has a massive hole in it. Ask yourself why, if these
> great things have 'been going on for literal decades', there is still a
> problem?

Hi Jim,

Mine wasn't an "argument", it's a provable statement.

Anyone that's attended the mandatory pilots' safety meeting at *any* US contest the last 20 years saw the CD ask for a show of hands for racers new to that venue -- those guys get a mentor *assigned*. You can refuse of course, but my point is: you don't even need to ask. Mentors I have had include Hank Nixon, John Seymour, Doug Jacobs, Ken Sorenson, Rick Walters... the very best of the best. All of these guys were fantastic to work with. I just wish I were a sharper student!

Numerous racing clinics have been held. I'm aware of week long clinics run by Doug Jacobs and Karl Striedieck, I know that there have been others. I was able to sit in on a couple of days with Doug and G Dale at Sugarbush in 2004 and it was intense, well focused, superb. I can't rattle off dates or numbers, but these are not terribly *un*common.

Karl Striedieck has been hopping back seat rides in his Duo at contests all over the country for the last decade. I don't believe the P2 ordinarily gets to do any flying, but you do get to see what goes on in Striedieck-world first hand, and guys I know that have taken the opportunity give it two thumbs up.

Lately (last 5 - 6 years) "Bus" classes have started running at regionals in the Northeast. Experienced guys bring the club K-21 or G-103 to a regional and rotate their students through the front seat on racing days. All backed up with ground school, of course.

My point is: The help and encouragement is there for the taking. What I can't do is freely distribute the motivation to jump on the offer and make it stick. Clearly, the one word reason for declining participation is "motivation". Addressing that is a different thread.

Best regards & see y'all at a competition next year.

Evan Ludeman / T8

PS. Just casually watching who's buying what in 2015 - 16, I see a bunch of 20m and larger two seat gliders getting purchased by guys with many decades of single seat XC and racing experience. Two that I know pretty well have made clear that their *main* purpose for doing this was to see if they could push some new pilots past their initial trepidation and into XC flying.. I suspect others are thinking similar thoughts. Opportunity in 2016 abounds.

[smfidler]

Exactly. The SSA is very fractured (to say the least) in its communication and marketing execution even though that task should be job #1.

From what I can see, we at the SSA has no very little marketing or marketing strategy. Our website should be set up based on our key audiences. It is not. It is generally set up to serve active existing SSA members.

We very little in the form of a growth and development strategy. Very little social media strategy. We have an almost ancient website that speaks for itself. Again, it only really serves the people who are already familiar with the SSA and know what they are looking for. You really do not get a sense of what is important or really going on at the SSA from our website. For example, another forum was recently created to foster inter club communications. I'm sure that there are others. This information cannot be found as a resource from the SSA website.

You're description of learning about cross country camps, etc from RAS and varied sources really speaks volumes to the larger problem.

No wonder RAS is so popular. It's really the best communication platform available. This is sad. What a huge opportunity for the SSA.

The SSA should have its own moderated (login required) forum really...

This problem (finding cross country camps or destinations or destination based non contest events, etc) is a perfect use case example for an SSA site rebuild.

Who are the target audiences for the SSA website? Are we providing them with good information or are they forced to go to RAS or "search around" for themselves? Of course if they are forced to go elsewhere the SSA has failed, miserably...

Quick list of SSA website target audience...

General public (unfamiliar but somehow interested in soaring and doing research...)
Contest pilots
Prospective Contest Pilots
Cross country pilots (non contest)
"Prospective" Cross Country Pilots
Pilots looking for soaring travel destinations
Pilots looking for soaring camps and coaching, training, mentoring...
OLC community
Prospective OLC Pilots
Commercial Soaring Operations
Prospective Commercial Operation Customers
Club pattern pilots (non-cross country)
Student pilots
Prospective students pilots
Prospective existing (but non glider) pilots (power, etc)
Tow pilots
Soaring Clubs
Soaring Club members
Junior pilots (should be top of this list)
Female pilots
Soaring Club members
Soaring Clubs
Instructors
Cross Country active Clubs
No Cross Country Clubs
Media
International Soaring Community
Potential Event Sponsors
Etc., etc.

This is a significant task but each of these audiences are very important. We need communications and marketing strategies that serve most or all of these communities. Little exists for them now.

We need to bring the SSA out of the 90's and into 2016.

Sean Fidler

[Bob Pasker]

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 10:19:15 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> My point is: The help and encouragement is there for the taking. What I can't do is freely distribute the motivation to jump on the offer and make it stick. Clearly, the one word reason for declining participation is "motivation".

I don't think its simply motivation.

as I tried to point in in my most recent post which lists the XC training programs I've found as a result of this thread, there is a gap between what is available and what is known to be available.

the SSA and event organizers can do a better job of getting the word out.

--b

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 11:09:58 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
> On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 10:19:15 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> > My point is: The help and encouragement is there for the taking. What I can't do is freely distribute the motivation to jump on the offer and make it stick. Clearly, the one word reason for declining participation is "motivation".
>
> I don't think its simply motivation.
>
> as I tried to point in in my most recent post which lists the XC training programs I've found as a result of this thread, there is a gap between what is available and what is known to be available.
>
> the SSA and event organizers can do a better job of getting the word out.
>
> --b

We'll put Sean right on it :-).

XC camps and racing aren't for scratch students, so I would presume that by the time most are ready for this, they have an awareness of where to go for information.

My complaint about motivation has more to do with competition flying. We've always seen the XC clinics fill up. There's another big step between recreational XC and competition flying.

best,
Evan

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 9:37:54 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
> thanks for all the info. I read Soaring and r.a.s religiously, and had no idea. I went to thermal camp last year at Air Sailing, and they also have an XC camp and wave camp.
>
> Let me recap what I found.
>
> ABQ Soaring -- nothing on their website http://www.abqsoaring.org/calendar.php?year=2016
>
> Seminole Lake -- SSA calendar has "Seminole Lake Wave Camp," which has only the date and a person to contact. No info on the Seminole Lake website itself http://www.soarfl.com/Upcoming_Events.html
>
> Lake Keepit 4 day xc -- http://www.keepitsoaring.com/LKSC/index.php/courses-and-training/4-day-xc-weekends
>
> Ephrata -- http://www.thedustup.info/
>
> Region 1 -- http://www.flynesa.com/Region1/ "The Bus class is intended to encourage clubs to bring a two seater, and more importantly bring members new to contests. Generally, this class features an experienced instructor pilot and a rotating cast of copilots new to the racing scene. What a great way to contribute to the growth of cross-country and competition soaring!"
>
> Region 2 -- http://tinyurl.com/h8g64gz We will have an "OLC" class for pilots who want to participate but not fly in the normal regional contest classes. Pilots may select their own tasks or fly the FAI or Sports task. Flights will be scored using the OLC and daily best performances will be recognized. Coaching and mentoring will be available. If you are interested in flying the OLC Class, just register as a Guest and I'll contact you individually with other details.
>
> some other's i found:
>
> Air Sailing -- http://www.airsailing.org/xc_camp2016.html
>
> Nelphi -- google finds old XC camp pages, but nothing up for 2016 yet http://www.utahsoaring.org/

Hi Bob
How long did it take you to search out the information above?
Thx
UH

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

To all of you who are interested in contests but have not yet flown one: Just Show Up! Every sports class regionals is designed as an entry level affair. Go to the practice day, explain that it's your first contest, and you'll get all the help you need. Yes, it would help to read the rules appendix and guide to competition, and have a vague idea of what the task types, start and finish procedures are. But even so, you'll get a "mentor" who can help explain everything to you. There will be several other first-timers. The camps, clinics and so forth are even better, but they are really not necessary before you go to a sports regionals. Just Show Up!

John Cochrane BB

[MNLou]

Based on my experience, BB is right on!

The SSA website has one or more "flying your first contest" documents that have great information. Read those first. Then show up.

I've been to 4 contests in the last 2 years and everyone, to a person, has been exceedingly helpful. Strategy, instruments, flying in tough conditions - you name it - help was there for the asking.

The biggest hurdle for me was being willing to land out. It happens. Be trained and ready - both skills and mentally. Then go fly!

The old adage about contest flying improving your soaring skills is also spot on. In my last contest, I spent 22 minutes at 1200 feet trying to stay up (yes, I had a landable field right underneath me.) I managed to get away on that one. I would never had worked that hard at my home field.

Finally - to every experienced contest pilot who has mentored a "newbie" - thank you very much!

Lou

PS - See you at the Region 7 contest in Albert Lea! It will be a great one this year!

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 12:01:30 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
> To all of you who are interested in contests but have not yet flown one: Just Show Up! Every sports class regionals is designed as an entry level affair. Go to the practice day, explain that it's your first contest, and you'll get all the help you need. Yes, it would help to read the rules appendix and guide to competition, and have a vague idea of what the task types, start and finish procedures are. But even so, you'll get a "mentor" who can help explain everything to you. There will be several other first-timers. The camps, clinics and so forth are even better, but they are really not necessary before you go to a sports regionals. Just Show Up!
>
> John Cochrane BB

I will add, it seem's (to me) whenever the SSA/Soaring magazine has done a pole (about Soaring content), the majority of SSA members complain about the level of reporting of contest's/contest reporting/contest (basically too much) info.

So, for some SSA members (mostly here on RAS) that seem like there is a dearth of contest info (in any form), maybe some of it the SSA is responding to those that make the most noise?
Not saying good or bad, just saying I've been around long enough to have seen multiple SSA/Soaring poles over ~30+ years.

As I've stated before, I started by crewing for much better pilots, then did "Little guys meets" in the NE US, followed by actual contest's.
Yes, I had "on field mentors" along the way as well. Maybe I'm in the 0.1% of the group in the US.


As a XC/contest pilot/CFIG, I've never "blown someone off" that had XC/contest questions.

[Ron Gleason]

On Sunday, 31 January 2016 10:01:30 UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
> To all of you who are interested in contests but have not yet flown one: Just Show Up! Every sports class regionals is designed as an entry level affair. Go to the practice day, explain that it's your first contest, and you'll get all the help you need. Yes, it would help to read the rules appendix and guide to competition, and have a vague idea of what the task types, start and finish procedures are. But even so, you'll get a "mentor" who can help explain everything to you. There will be several other first-timers. The camps, clinics and so forth are even better, but they are really not necessary before you go to a sports regionals. Just Show Up!
>
> John Cochrane BB

Read the Appendixes of the rulebook, great primer. Someone mentioned crewing for an experienced pilot but also volunteer to assist with organizing and running a contest. If we do not continue to foster organizers and volunteers events will not occur.

[Minot Moonshiners]

I've been reading this thread with interest. You see.. I think I'm a prime candidate for this idea. I have my CFIG and commercial. I got it 20 years ago in college. Almost all of my soaring experience is 20 years ago. Almost the entirety of my experience is intro soaring, and acro rides when I was in college (that's was flying that someone else was paying for... good enough in my late teens)

I had some good flying in CSA's 1-36. I think my best ever was a 2.5 flight out of Bob Lee in Deland FL. I got beyond gliding range from the airport for the first time. Nothing serious... just one flight of.. oh... I gotta go here, then there then I can get back.

Now here I am in my early 40s. Time, and disposable income are both on my side for once. I joined a club late in the summer. I checked out to tow and teach. Knocking the rust off my skills was fun. I got some good instruction in ridge soaring, got a taste of wave too.

So, here I am.. What now!?

I decided that I need to learn. So after one false start ( tried Minden, but they decided they'd stay closed in March when I have vacation) I booked 4 days in Williams CA. Told them I want to learn how to thermal better, and get some cross country instruction.

I've been reading some soaring books. Started with 'the soaring engine'

I've got plans to go to Elmira. A college age friend grew up at contests, and he and his kids now are flying contest. I feel I'm so far away from being qualified to even show up!

I'm sure it's like anything.. I just have to DO it.

I bought a quarter share of a 1-35. I'm anxious to get out and learn the skill set. As of now, I'd say I wouldn't be interested in a contest until 2017. Is that realistic.. a whole year of getting ready? The 'on ramp' sure looks steep from where I'm sitting. I'm determined to keep going, and see if I enjoy this type of flying. But for someone who's never done it. It sure seems like a extraordinary amount of time, effort, and money getting into a new hobby. I'm game to try for a while and see how I like it.

Jason

[[email protected]]

There are some problems you can not solve - you just need to battle constantly against the tide :) lets just be tenacious ;) and keep trying/be open to new ideas...... he small number of contest pilots compared to SSA membership and the shrinking number of pilots ............. All Orphan Sports share the same problem.

IDEA: we have Nationals (worth 100) - Regional s (worth 92) - lets make a Contest that is 4 days (worth 70).

One operator I spoke to really like the idea of doing a contest that was easier and required less man hours to run. This would help his operation and maybe get a few people to try a contest who can not give up their vacation..

I think in the end we are looking for pilots to get "bitten by the bug". Until Red Bull decided to sponsor our contests....... main stream media may be a stretch :) (but getting a high end media sponsor is also not a bad idea :))


WH1

ps.For me the emphasis in VSC on doing Badge Flights and the Governors Cup comp between the 3 clubs in our area - rally helped drive the XC itch.

[MNLou]

Jason wrote - "As of now, I'd say I wouldn't be interested in a contest until 2017. Is that realistic.. a whole year of getting ready?"

If you focus on and accomplish your C, Bronze, and Silver badges in 2016, the plan to fly a contest in 2017 is quite realistic. Especially if you spend some time in the winter of 2016 - 2017 reading up on contest flying.

Go for it!

Lou

[John Carlyle]

Since "on ramp" in regard to contests is becoming a meme, I feel the need to call BS. Where's the "on ramp" to college? Where's the "on ramp" for getting a job? Where's the "on ramp" for taking flying lessons? All of these instances require self-motivation and some initiative; they don't happen unless you do something. The same is true of contest flying.

Now I appreciate that some people are timid, or don't have a great deal of self-confidence, or might need a bit of a push. For them the best advice I can give would be to join a club that has pilots who do XC and fly contests.. Camaraderie and a bit of peer pressure can work wonders!

As others have said on this thread already, there are many venues and opportunities available for people to get exposed to contest flying. But you have to take advantage of them yourself, no one can spoon feed you into becoming a contest pilot.

-John, Q3

[[email protected]]

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 9:49:41 AM UTC-5, MNLou wrote:
> Jason wrote - "As of now, I'd say I wouldn't be interested in a contest until 2017. Is that realistic.. a whole year of getting ready?"
>
> If you focus on and accomplish your C, Bronze, and Silver badges in 2016, the plan to fly a contest in 2017 is quite realistic. Especially if you spend some time in the winter of 2016 - 2017 reading up on contest flying.
>
> Go for it!
>
> Lou

I would add that setting aside a few days to visit a contest would be very worthwhile. The things that can be learned by going to pilot meetings, meeting pilots and getting some hints, maybe pitching in to help the launch or do a retrieve are invaluable.
Plus you will meet people who can act as mentors while you get going.
Caution- addicting- it makes you want to do it.
UH

[[email protected]]

I think the bar is quite high to become a REGULAR contest participant. Fans of Cosmos may recall Carl Sagan's explanation of the Drake equation that posits the possibility of life on other planets. I propose a Contest Pilot Drake equation where:

A = Probability that a glider pilot has reasonable cross country proficiency

B = Probability that 'A' pilots have access to their own glider either owned or borrowed

C= Probability that B pilots fly the glider XC more than [pick a number....20?] times a year

D= Probability that C pilots have enough vacation to attend 3 contests a year

E= Probability that D pilots have enough money to attend 3 contests a year

F = Probability that E pilots will have family situations that allow attending 3 contests a year

G = Probability that F pilots will feel they are making enough progress after 3 seasons in a row to continue.

A * B * C * D * E * F * G * Number of active glider pilots = Number of contest pilots

There's a reason that a lot of retired people fly in contests and it's not because younger pilots lack the interest. There's personal sacrifice (even if you're single), and it's going to take you several years to get comfortable and start placing in the top half -if you're good enough to begin with.. It's entirely possible that while you will improve considerably, you may not be very good at the competition level.

I'm not implying that it isn't worth the time and effort to improve. Winning isn't the only thing, and it's entirely possible that you may enjoy yourself immensely but never place particularly high on the list of finishers. Is that worth it to you? Only you can decide, just remember that the best way to keep from getting your butt kicked in a contest is to fly in more contests.

Time is expensive. You have to not only devote time to going to contests, you have to fly an awful lot on your own time. Everyone reading this, including me, will think that's not much of a sacrifice but ask your wife what she thinks on a day when she wants you to take a kayak ride while Dr. Jack tells you it's a great day to try for your 500k. ("This sport is worse than golf -you're gone all day!") I've been accused of only wanting to spend rainy days at home during flying season. I can't imagine what would happen if I announced I was going to three contests this year. Plus, flying to get ready for them.

That's just me. Your mileage may vary, as they say. I fully expect others to disagree with my reasoning and again, don't come away thinking I'm not saying that contests aren't great. Like automotive racing, they teach even non-contest flyers a lot of valuable lessons, push things forward for everyone and add depth and texture to the sport.

But they're not for everyone. In fact, they're not for most everyone. I refer you back to the equation above. Even just dipping your toes into contest flying takes a tremendous amount of effort, time, and money. That's probably why many people try them once in a while, but never fly them regularly. And, incidentally, probably why the OLC is so popular -you can time shift your competitive days to when it is convenient for you to fly.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 5:52:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I think the bar is quite high to become a REGULAR contest participant. Fans of Cosmos may recall Carl Sagan's explanation of the Drake equation that posits the possibility of life on other planets. I propose a Contest Pilot Drake equation where:
>
> A = Probability that a glider pilot has reasonable cross country proficiency
>
> B = Probability that 'A' pilots have access to their own glider either owned or borrowed
>
> C= Probability that B pilots fly the glider XC more than [pick a number....20?] times a year
>
> D= Probability that C pilots have enough vacation to attend 3 contests a year
>
> E= Probability that D pilots have enough money to attend 3 contests a year
>
> F = Probability that E pilots will have family situations that allow attending 3 contests a year
>
> G = Probability that F pilots will feel they are making enough progress after 3 seasons in a row to continue.
>
> A * B * C * D * E * F * G * Number of active glider pilots = Number of contest pilots
>
> There's a reason that a lot of retired people fly in contests and it's not because younger pilots lack the interest. There's personal sacrifice (even if you're single), and it's going to take you several years to get comfortable and start placing in the top half -if you're good enough to begin with. It's entirely possible that while you will improve considerably, you may not be very good at the competition level.
>
> I'm not implying that it isn't worth the time and effort to improve. Winning isn't the only thing, and it's entirely possible that you may enjoy yourself immensely but never place particularly high on the list of finishers.. Is that worth it to you? Only you can decide, just remember that the best way to keep from getting your butt kicked in a contest is to fly in more contests.
>
> Time is expensive. You have to not only devote time to going to contests, you have to fly an awful lot on your own time. Everyone reading this, including me, will think that's not much of a sacrifice but ask your wife what she thinks on a day when she wants you to take a kayak ride while Dr. Jack tells you it's a great day to try for your 500k. ("This sport is worse than golf -you're gone all day!") I've been accused of only wanting to spend rainy days at home during flying season. I can't imagine what would happen if I announced I was going to three contests this year. Plus, flying to get ready for them.
>
> That's just me. Your mileage may vary, as they say. I fully expect others to disagree with my reasoning and again, don't come away thinking I'm not saying that contests aren't great. Like automotive racing, they teach even non-contest flyers a lot of valuable lessons, push things forward for everyone and add depth and texture to the sport.
>
> But they're not for everyone. In fact, they're not for most everyone. I refer you back to the equation above. Even just dipping your toes into contest flying takes a tremendous amount of effort, time, and money. That's probably why many people try them once in a while, but never fly them regularly. And, incidentally, probably why the OLC is so popular -you can time shift your competitive days to when it is convenient for you to fly.

Wow..... I'm not a big numbers guy, but your post is GREAT!.

I have been lucky,
-I've had a great XC local base
-I've had great gliders to fly
-Local goal is, "40+ hours in the glider you're going to race for that season"
-Vacation was not usually an issue
-Money was a low issue, I usually used a tent (sometime 2, one for me, one for equipment using "2 man pop tents" at times early on)

While I have done, "Bottom of the 1st page on yearly SSA pilot rankings" at my best (a decade or so in the past), part of me say's, "What if I flew more?".

Still, excellent post.

Yes, our club has a reasonable XC bent, we even have a SSA National champ to guide us, I realize not every club/group has this.
I am VERY happy I am in this situation, wish I had better results to show it.

[[email protected]]

The restarted region one race being held on two consecutive weekends is brilliant. Get enough of those so folks don't have to travel excessively and a good chunk of the problem is solved. PS pilots will still need to stand up to their wimmen. Stand tall do not show any weakness and every good soaring day can be yours. Tell her if she wants to see you on good soaring days she can crew. The old soaring masters did it.

[Giaco]

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 12:47:17 PM UTC-5, John Carlyle wrote:
> Since "on ramp" in regard to contests is becoming a meme, I feel the need to call BS. Where's the "on ramp" to college? Where's the "on ramp" for getting a job? Where's the "on ramp" for taking flying lessons? All of these instances require self-motivation and some initiative; they don't happen unless you do something. The same is true of contest flying.

Without starting generational war, which this may very well be part of the dilemma as well, I would argue that for those under 35, there were quite a few "on ramps" to College, jobs, and in many cases flying lessons... Not to mention if our goal is to sell and build the sport, the easiest way to fail in this endeavor is to tell people is to just spend the money, figure it out, and you might like it.

I understand that this is not how society always worked, but in many regards there were a lot less events vying for members time and money (how many forms of martial arts and after-school programs existed in 1960?). This is the exact same problem that juniors face in the highschool years, and why they simply cannot afford to spend all their time sitting around the gliderport watching old men drink.

[Andrew Ainslie]

Really? Just home before they cr a couple open a bottle. And who knows, you just might learn something while they're sober in daylight hours.

Sheesh. When did I become an old man? Seems 1 minute ago. That's the worst argument against accepting the huge generosity of those alcoholic old men I've ever heard.

[Giaco]

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 10:21:22 PM UTC-5, Andrew Ainslie wrote:
> Really? Just home before they cr a couple open a bottle. And who knows, you just might learn something while they're sober in daylight hours.
>
> Sheesh. When did I become an old man? Seems 1 minute ago. That's the worst argument against accepting the huge generosity of those alcoholic old men I've ever heard.

Never said it wasn't entertaining, worthwhile, or educational... just not the way the winds of change allow "kids these days" to operate and still secure strong post-secondary education.

[Andrew Ainslie]

Any time you work out how insulting your comment about drunken old farts was, just let us know.

[Andrew Ainslie]

Oh... and apologies for not spotting how utterly uninterpretabe my tiny phone keyboard plus autocorrect made my first post.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 1:48:15 AM UTC-8, Jim White wrote:
> At 02:09 30 January 2016, Christopher Giacomo wrote:
> >On Friday, January 29, 2016 at 9:06:21 PM UTC-5, Christopher Giacomo
> wrote:
> >> As i was looking through the pilot rankings on the SSA website tonight,
> i
> >counted just under 500 pilots with any registration in a contest in the
> >last 3 years. Wiki claims that the SSA has over 10,000 members
> (understand
> >not all of them fly
> >
> >But that still means that less than 5% of active members are even showing
> >up to a contest? seems strange that such a large proportion of
> conversation
> >and emphasis on RAS is focused on such a small segment of the sport.
> >
> Gliding competition is a bit like sex. Until you have done it a couple of
> times it can seem a bit intimidating. The difference is you never get too
> old to compete with dignity.
>
> You have to be less elitist and simplify the rules if you want people to
> try it.

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 1:48:15 AM UTC-8, Jim White wrote:
> At 02:09 30 January 2016, Christopher Giacomo wrote:
> >On Friday, January 29, 2016 at 9:06:21 PM UTC-5, Christopher Giacomo
> wrote:
> >> As i was looking through the pilot rankings on the SSA website tonight,
> i
> >counted just under 500 pilots with any registration in a contest in the
> >last 3 years. Wiki claims that the SSA has over 10,000 members
> (understand
> >not all of them fly
> >
> >But that still means that less than 5% of active members are even showing
> >up to a contest? seems strange that such a large proportion of
> conversation
> >and emphasis on RAS is focused on such a small segment of the sport.
> >
> Gliding competition is a bit like sex. Until you have done it a couple of
> times it can seem a bit intimidating. The difference is you never get too
> old to compete with dignity.
>
> You have to be less elitist and simplify the rules if you want people to
> try it.

It might be that the ratio of glider pilots who fly in contests is really much higher than many other pastimes. No research to back up the opinion, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that the percentage of bicycle enthusiasts, motorcycle enthusiasts, jet ski riders, snowboarders, skiers, surfers, automobile drivers, skateboarders, etc., who compete in any organized competition would reflect a much lower participation rate than the sport of soaring.

[Brian[_1_]]

Or...
contact the closest contest organizer you might want to go to and offer volunteer, they almost always need launch crew. Verify it will be ok to stage your glider and launch after the contest launch, you can then fly the a task that has been assigned for the day. Treat the scorer right and he might even score it for you so you can see how you would have done.

I did this two years ago, I flew a tow plane for the launch and then, on the better soaring days, launched in my own glider after the contest launch was done.

Brian

[SF]

SF's recommendations for contest beginners

1. Enter and show up. Don't over think this. If you think you want to fly a contest just do it. Everybody there remembers their fist contest and they will try to help you.

2. Establish some reasonable goals and expectations.
Goal # One: Have fun. Goal # Two: fly safe
Don't expect to win. Don't let what other people are doing lead you into what you personally consider risky behavior. If the wind is too high for you, pull your plane out of the start grid. If you don't feel good today, don't fly. Don't like the weather, don't fly. Get out on couse and don't like the way things are going, turn around and land.

3. Do things to De-stress the experience for you. Get everything working and downloaded before leaving home. Don't save money and camp on the field if you don't like camping. If you can bring a crew, bring them. Just knowing that someone is standing by to go get you when you land out really helps.

4. you are probably going to land out, know that going in and don't sweat it. Make a decision as to what altitude number you are going to use to decide when to quit competing and start landing. Don't let others stories of low saves lead you to try one.

5. When you get back and others didn't, go on retrieves. They usually always result in a good story.

SF

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 2:48:15 AM UTC-7, Jim White wrote:
> At 02:09 30 January 2016, Christopher Giacomo wrote:
> >On Friday, January 29, 2016 at 9:06:21 PM UTC-5, Christopher Giacomo
> wrote:
> >> As i was looking through the pilot rankings on the SSA website tonight,
> i
> >counted just under 500 pilots with any registration in a contest in the
> >last 3 years. Wiki claims that the SSA has over 10,000 members
> (understand
> >not all of them fly
> >
> >But that still means that less than 5% of active members are even showing
> >up to a contest? seems strange that such a large proportion of
> conversation
> >and emphasis on RAS is focused on such a small segment of the sport.
> >
> Gliding competition is a bit like sex. Until you have done it a couple of
> times it can seem a bit intimidating. The difference is you never get too
> old to compete with dignity.
>
> You have to be less elitist and simplify the rules if you want people to
> try it.

I learned about contest flying and running contests from the old S3C (Southern California Competition Club). Many of the old time greats participated and were eager to share their expertise in these two day contests during the "off season", back in the day.

gary kemp "NK"

[[email protected]]

I've been flying gliders since 1965 and contests since 1968. I've had almost every advantage: a great early club (Caesar Creek) with wonderful facilities; a father who was my instructor and coach; and early access to a 1-26, Libelle 201, and LS-3 before I had to start going it alone. I love competitive soaring and some of the highest moments of my life have been experienced in it.

That said, I've three times been out of active flying temporarily and had to come back after a few years away. It's been tough, frankly. Technologies, tactics, and rules change. The glider needs licensing. Batteries are dead and trailer tires need replacing. The chute needs repacking. In one case, I hadn't bothered to renew the registration on my tow vehicle. It's been a little imposing and there are a lot of other things going on in life on any given day to soak up the time and interest.

What's made it possible for me is the help of a few friends at critical moments. In a couple of cases I reached out asking for help. In another case, they apparently conspired to "encourage" me back into it. :) Thanks once again, UH and P3, for making a big difference in my life. I'm indebted to you both, as are myriad other pilots.

So on that basis, while I agree there are a number of "on ramp" mechanisms to make your first contest easier, I would suggest reaching out to someone for help. It could be a pilot at your club with some contest experience. Or just speaking up at a club meeting and seeing who approaches you afterward to chat. That might turn into a specific action plan for you. Or an invitation to crew or work on a contest. Or a suggestion to get some more cross country time (although my first local contest was also my first cross country).

I'm not saying this is the old days when some pilots wanted evidence that a newbie had paid his dues, so to speak. But for sure we can't provide motivation when none is pre-existing. Show some reasonable level of interest and plenty of people will be more than happy to help. Signing up for your first contest might be too intimidating. If so, talk to some folks who have done it and, ideally, know something about your experience and abilities. Solicit their help. I suspect you'll be surprised at their level of support. Just don't ask them to carry you every step of the way.

Chip Bearden

[[email protected]]

One thing I have not seen posted yet. It used to be required to have evidence of a silver distance xc flight and five hour endurance or a voucher from another contest pilot of the same. I think the five hour is the most important in all of that. Being able to think clearly and have good judgment after a stressful 3-4-5 hour flight canout be emphasized enough. So if your thinking about contest get a few consecutive 5 hour flights in then go have some fun.

[Bob Pasker]

one of the great things about Air Sailing camps is that they are all set up for earning badge 'legs': they have loggers to loan, observers, forms at the ready, and analysis software, and as such many of the participants earned Silver achievements. --bob

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 10:00:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> One thing I have not seen posted yet. It used to be required to have evidence of a silver distance xc flight and five hour endurance or a voucher from another contest pilot of the same. I think the five hour is the most important in all of that. Being able to think clearly and have good judgment after a stressful 3-4-5 hour flight canout be emphasized enough. So if your thinking about contest get a few consecutive 5 hour flights in then go have some fun.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 10:00:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> One thing I have not seen posted yet. It used to be required to have evidence of a silver distance xc flight and five hour endurance or a voucher from another contest pilot of the same. I think the five hour is the most important in all of that. Being able to think clearly and have good judgment after a stressful 3-4-5 hour flight canout be emphasized enough. So if your thinking about contest get a few consecutive 5 hour flights in then go have some fun.

The requirement now is Silver Distance or a documented 100 km OLC flight. This is a pretty low barrier. It is obviously advisable to have more cross country experience and longer flights to make the contest experience better.
That said, I don't think the 5 hr leg means much in this context.
One reason the entry bar is so low is that we have a pretty high level of support and oversight for new pilots.
UH

[Minot Moonshiners]

Along these lines.. what's the cost for something that will work as a logger? I've seen some interesting hacks with a Nook, and I have a couple old ones lying about. I'm just wanting to spend the money once for something that will log my flights, and be useful in the cockpit. I realize that there's a BIG range when talking technology. I just want something that will work for badges and beginner contest.

Thanks

[Don Grillo[_2_]]

Hi All, I participated in my first contest last May, 2015 (Region 7). I went in with no xc experience, landouts or a Silver Badge. I was lucky in that the CD new me and allowed me to participate. I brought my newly purchased LAK17a that I only had a dozen flights in. That winter before the contest, I studied xc flying in every book I could find and studied the SSA rules. I went with the expectation that I would learn as much as I could. I didn't care about what place I came in as long as I flew safe and very conservative.

It was THE BEST experience I ever had. It was a small contest (11 participants) so I think that helped. EVERYONE there was very helpful and I learned so much. The CD would give me guidance and helped me in whatever I needed. Every flight I made got better and I gained more confidence in myself. I even had my first landout (at a grass stip) and retrieval.

Did I make mistakes, of course I did but, you learn from your mistakes. From all the excellent advice listed here in these posts, my suggestion for someone thinking about his/her first contest is to spend time planning your trip. Be very conservative in your flying (added safety altitude) etc and make it a learning experience. Don't even think about what place you come in and have fun.
Don
F2

[[email protected]]

Loggers

It depends what you want to do with the log.

For OLC and some low key events all you need is a smart phone (it actually does not need cell service) with XCSOAR, or TopHat loaded - they all produce a good IGC file and cost nothing. IGCDROID will send the log to your email, but you need service.

For contests and badges......... you need to look at each event and know how strict the requirement. the Nano is probably the most used and cheapest logger for badges and contests.

if you fly with other pilots, there are almost always loggers around to barrow.


WH1

[BobW]

On 2/3/2016 8:05 AM, Don Grillo wrote:
> Hi All, I participated in my first contest last May, 2015 (Region 7).
<Snip>

> ...in and have fun. Don F2

Great - dare I say inspiring? - feedback and advice! And - thanks to Don (whom
I neither know nor have met) taking the time to write up for "Soaring" mag
(May 2015) the l - o - n - g (torturous?) path leading to his becoming a
soaring pilot - alert readers already know more about his minimal indeed,
pre-contest soaring experience (silver spoon not included). Thanks, Don!

Bob W.

[J. Nieuwenhuize]

Here (in the Netherlands) from late april to late august there's at least one and often 2 weekend-contests at clubs within an hour or two driving. Finding 3-4 weekends a year works for most folks.

Better yet, most regional competitions used to be tied up in a bigger scheme, where if you participated in a minimum of 3 comps, there was a shared "total" scoring.

Works great if done locally, works for club ships and people with a busy job+family obligations. It also allows people without any competition experience to fly one at their trusted home field, try the waters an hours driving away and gain competition experience.

[[email protected]]

I'll throw two cents more into this discussion. I think xc soaring has always been a minority persuite in soaring. The vast majority of soaring pilots do not own their own ships, they are dependant upon club ships. It started this way and it is still this way. That being said, most clubs, with a few exceptions, do not place much emphasis on xc due to the hassle of retrieves etc. thus we get very little 'club' participation in contests. Those guys who own their own ships, for the most part are content to hang around doing local flying for the same reasons, the hassle factor of xc. When we eliminate the club/non owners and the 'happy to fly local/private owners from the pool, their ain't much left for contests.

I think the big stumbling block to the entire situation is the lack of desire to simply fly xc. Lack of a personal machine=inability to go anywhere (for most guys). The issue comes down to DESIRE. A guy who has desire to do something will always find a way and find the cash that fulfill it. If your talking about engendering desire in a prospective contest guy, the 'buddy around a task' approach in a Duo is a helpfull way to go to prompt someone to get involved in contest flying. We need to recognize there is an intimidation factor involved in xc and we have done it to ourselves. Guys see 18 meter ships 40+/1 zipping around a 100km xc on a sunny afternoon and then they look at themselves and think 'man I'm not very good, what if I land out?' We have looked at outlandings as a sign of failure instead of accomplishment! Once we start to engender an understanding that an outlandings is no big deal, a learning experience, and possibly a sign that we took our abilities to the edge of their limits, then guys will be more enthusiastic about going for it.

As for an entrance ramp for guys to get into contest flying, there are plenty as has been demonstrated in earlier posts. I have never been in a contest but I spent five years crewing for my brother in regionals and Nationals back when the Zuni and the asw20 were hot birds. I couldn't afford one of them but I did have access to a Pilates and did a whole bunch of xc flying on my own. You see I already had the DESIRE to go xc and to learn to go faster by watching and flying with those guys at the regionals. I remember one day going xc from Minden down to bishop in the Pilates and running into a bunch of guys flying the last leg of a regional task, flying with John Sinclair. It was the fasted I had ever averaged along the whites. Later that night I had a chance to talk to him and remember him telling me 'oh you were the guy in that red white n blue Pilates, yeh that leg along the whites was pretty slow' . Geese I thought we were screaming along! That one little bit of exposure to contest flying taught me more about efficient xc flying than a whole summer of punking around myself!

Second factor, Let's face it, contest flying is for the most part expensive.. Even to engage in sport class flying at a regional, a guy better have at least $1000 bucks in his kitty for travel gas hotel entrance fees, extra tows etc. a guy can fly a whole bunch on $1000 locally.

I have returned to soaring after many years of hiatus, but since I already had the Desire to go xc, that was no problem, cost however was still an issue. I circumvented that by going back to basics. I got involved with the veritable dependable and very affordable 1-26. For under 7k a guy can find an excellent 1-26 and trailer and fly to ones hearts content. Xc IS doable, gold n diamond tasks ARE doable, and landing out IS NOT scary, humiliating or a sign of defeat. In fact it is half the fun of xc. I am prouder of my little 100km flights with a land out on a marginal day than most guys flying around in their glass n getting home. Yes I worked harder, yes I went way way slower, but I know that I made far fewer mistakes than the glass man who has the cushion of performance to cover his ass where if I make a mistake missing one thermal I am down 10 miles from home. I am redoing my badges in my 1-26. 1-26 flying is a measure of the man not the machine.

As for contests in a 1-26, I talked to Wick Wilkerson the pres of the 1-26 assoc, they are waving the entrance fees for anyone who has never flown a contest before and wants to fly in the 1-26 nationals this year. Secondly, a simple logging computer like the old Oudie or nano is all that's needed to fly in their nationals. Thirdly, no matter how ratty or clean your 1-26 is, you are going to be competitive. How's that for an entrance ramp!

I can't think of a better way for anyone with limited soaring experience and a limited budget to get involved in xc and in contest flying.
Sincerely
Dan Nezgoda 1-26 #225

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 5:28:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I'll throw two cents more into this discussion. I think xc soaring has always been a minority persuite in soaring. The vast majority of soaring pilots do not own their own ships, they are dependant upon club ships. It started this way and it is still this way. That being said, most clubs, with a few exceptions, do not place much emphasis on xc due to the hassle of retrieves etc. thus we get very little 'club' participation in contests. Those guys who own their own ships, for the most part are content to hang around doing local flying for the same reasons, the hassle factor of xc. When we eliminate the club/non owners and the 'happy to fly local/private owners from the pool, their ain't much left for contests.
>
> I think the big stumbling block to the entire situation is the lack of desire to simply fly xc. Lack of a personal machine=inability to go anywhere (for most guys). The issue comes down to DESIRE. A guy who has desire to do something will always find a way and find the cash that fulfill it. If your talking about engendering desire in a prospective contest guy, the 'buddy around a task' approach in a Duo is a helpfull way to go to prompt someone to get involved in contest flying. We need to recognize there is an intimidation factor involved in xc and we have done it to ourselves. Guys see 18 meter ships 40+/1 zipping around a 100km xc on a sunny afternoon and then they look at themselves and think 'man I'm not very good, what if I land out?' We have looked at outlandings as a sign of failure instead of accomplishment! Once we start to engender an understanding that an outlandings is no big deal, a learning experience, and possibly a sign that we took our abilities to the edge of their limits, then guys will be more enthusiastic about going for it.
>
> As for an entrance ramp for guys to get into contest flying, there are plenty as has been demonstrated in earlier posts. I have never been in a contest but I spent five years crewing for my brother in regionals and Nationals back when the Zuni and the asw20 were hot birds. I couldn't afford one of them but I did have access to a Pilates and did a whole bunch of xc flying on my own. You see I already had the DESIRE to go xc and to learn to go faster by watching and flying with those guys at the regionals. I remember one day going xc from Minden down to bishop in the Pilates and running into a bunch of guys flying the last leg of a regional task, flying with John Sinclair. It was the fasted I had ever averaged along the whites. Later that night I had a chance to talk to him and remember him telling me 'oh you were the guy in that red white n blue Pilates, yeh that leg along the whites was pretty slow' . Geese I thought we were screaming along! That one little bit of exposure to contest flying taught me more about efficient xc flying than a whole summer of punking around myself!
>
> Second factor, Let's face it, contest flying is for the most part expensive. Even to engage in sport class flying at a regional, a guy better have at least $1000 bucks in his kitty for travel gas hotel entrance fees, extra tows etc. a guy can fly a whole bunch on $1000 locally.
>
> I have returned to soaring after many years of hiatus, but since I already had the Desire to go xc, that was no problem, cost however was still an issue. I circumvented that by going back to basics. I got involved with the veritable dependable and very affordable 1-26. For under 7k a guy can find an excellent 1-26 and trailer and fly to ones hearts content. Xc IS doable, gold n diamond tasks ARE doable, and landing out IS NOT scary, humiliating or a sign of defeat. In fact it is half the fun of xc. I am prouder of my little 100km flights with a land out on a marginal day than most guys flying around in their glass n getting home. Yes I worked harder, yes I went way way slower, but I know that I made far fewer mistakes than the glass man who has the cushion of performance to cover his ass where if I make a mistake missing one thermal I am down 10 miles from home. I am redoing my badges in my 1-26. 1-26 flying is a measure of the man not the machine.
>
> As for contests in a 1-26, I talked to Wick Wilkerson the pres of the 1-26 assoc, they are waving the entrance fees for anyone who has never flown a contest before and wants to fly in the 1-26 nationals this year. Secondly, a simple logging computer like the old Oudie or nano is all that's needed to fly in their nationals. Thirdly, no matter how ratty or clean your 1-26 is, you are going to be competitive. How's that for an entrance ramp!
>
> I can't think of a better way for anyone with limited soaring experience and a limited budget to get involved in xc and in contest flying.
> Sincerely
> Dan Nezgoda 1-26 #225

Dan, this is one of the best posts in a very long time.

[BobW]

On 2/11/2016 4:27 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 5:28:36 PM UTC-5,
> wrote:
>> I'll throw two cents more into this discussion. I think xc soaring has
>> always been a minority persuite in soaring. The vast majority of soaring
>> pilots do not own their own ships, they are dependant upon club ships. It
>> started this way and it is still this way. That being said, most clubs,
>> with a few exceptions, do not place much emphasis on xc due to the hassle
>> of retrieves etc. thus we get very little 'club' participation in
>> contests. Those guys who own their own ships, for the most part are
>> content to hang around doing local flying for the same reasons, the
>> hassle factor of xc. When we eliminate the club/non owners and the 'happy
>> to fly local/private owners from the pool, their ain't much left for
>> contests.
>>
>> I think the big stumbling block to the entire situation is the lack of
>> desire to simply fly xc. Lack of a personal machine=inability to go
>> anywhere (for most guys). The issue comes down to DESIRE. A guy who has
>> desire to do something will always find a way and find the cash that
>> fulfill it. If your talking about engendering desire in a prospective
>> contest guy, the 'buddy around a task' approach in a Duo is a helpfull
>> way to go to prompt someone to get involved in contest flying. We need
>> to recognize there is an intimidation factor involved in xc and we have
>> done it to ourselves. Guys see 18 meter ships 40+/1 zipping around a
>> 100km xc on a sunny afternoon and then they look at themselves and think
>> 'man I'm not very good, what if I land out?' We have looked at
>> outlandings as a sign of failure instead of accomplishment! Once we start
>> to engender an understanding that an outlandings is no big deal, a
>> learning experience, and possibly a sign that we took our abilities to
>> the edge of their limits, then guys will be more enthusiastic about going
>> for it.
>>
>> As for an entrance ramp for guys to get into contest flying, there are
>> plenty as has been demonstrated in earlier posts. I have never been in a
>> contest but I spent five years crewing for my brother in regionals and
>> Nationals back when the Zuni and the asw20 were hot birds. I couldn't
>> afford one of them but I did have access to a Pilates and did a whole
>> bunch of xc flying on my own. You see I already had the DESIRE to go xc
>> and to learn to go faster by watching and flying with those guys at the
>> regionals. I remember one day going xc from Minden down to bishop in the
>> Pilates and running into a bunch of guys flying the last leg of a
>> regional task, flying with John Sinclair. It was the fasted I had ever
>> averaged along the whites. Later that night I had a chance to talk to him
>> and remember him telling me 'oh you were the guy in that red white n blue
>> Pilates, yeh that leg along the whites was pretty slow' . Geese I thought
>> we were screaming along! That one little bit of exposure to contest
>> flying taught me more about efficient xc flying than a whole summer of
>> punking around myself!
>>
>> Second factor, Let's face it, contest flying is for the most part
>> expensive. Even to engage in sport class flying at a regional, a guy
>> better have at least $1000 bucks in his kitty for travel gas hotel
>> entrance fees, extra tows etc. a guy can fly a whole bunch on $1000
>> locally.
>>
>> I have returned to soaring after many years of hiatus, but since I
>> already had the Desire to go xc, that was no problem, cost however was
>> still an issue. I circumvented that by going back to basics. I got
>> involved with the veritable dependable and very affordable 1-26. For
>> under 7k a guy can find an excellent 1-26 and trailer and fly to ones
>> hearts content. Xc IS doable, gold n diamond tasks ARE doable, and
>> landing out IS NOT scary, humiliating or a sign of defeat. In fact it is
>> half the fun of xc. I am prouder of my little 100km flights with a land
>> out on a marginal day than most guys flying around in their glass n
>> getting home. Yes I worked harder, yes I went way way slower, but I know
>> that I made far fewer mistakes than the glass man who has the cushion of
>> performance to cover his ass where if I make a mistake missing one
>> thermal I am down 10 miles from home. I am redoing my badges in my 1-26.
>> 1-26 flying is a measure of the man not the machine.
>>
>> As for contests in a 1-26, I talked to Wick Wilkerson the pres of the
>> 1-26 assoc, they are waving the entrance fees for anyone who has never
>> flown a contest before and wants to fly in the 1-26 nationals this year.
>> Secondly, a simple logging computer like the old Oudie or nano is all
>> that's needed to fly in their nationals. Thirdly, no matter how ratty or
>> clean your 1-26 is, you are going to be competitive. How's that for an
>> entrance ramp!
>>
>> I can't think of a better way for anyone with limited soaring experience
>> and a limited budget to get involved in xc and in contest flying.
>> Sincerely Dan Nezgoda 1-26 #225
>
> Dan, this is one of the best posts in a very long time.
>

+1!

And no, that's NOT a knock on slippery glass, contests, or the skills to go
XC-zooming around in any ol' 30+:1 glider. It IS a "Hear! Hear!" for not
losing sight of fundamentals every single one of us "XC-able" pilots had to
learn and (maybe even!) master.

If I'd been given a dollar for every time I encountered someone moaning about
"needing the latest glass" as the only pre-requisite they lacked in order to
go XC, I might've been able to justify moving up from the 1st-generation
15-meter glider that met my needs for nearly 3 decades...no
comparison-jealousy in sight! I've often wondered if those "need the latest
glass" pilots were born with that belief, or if they somehow or other missed
hearing, or misinterpreted what they did hear, about the things needed in
order to be able to safely enjoy XC. L/D certainly wasn't near the top of the
list propounded to me when I was in my "sponge-learning mode"...though it
*was* discussed, along with its advantages.

Truth is, I've known more of "that category" pilots who've *busted* their high
L/D ships in ill-performed off-field landings than I have those who even
mildly bent/busted things learning with "kiddy toy gliders." One or two even
remained in the sport. Remember my period of "being a soaring grunt" began in
the early 1970s, before trotting out the, "Yebbut that's because very few 21:1
machines are flown XC anymore," argument. Maybe there should be? That's how I
gained my basic skills, and you can bet I was as sweaty-palmed on my first few
OFLs as Joe Never-Thought-I'd-Be-Landing-My-$150,000-Glider-Off-field is when
he has to do it unexpectedly "all the sudden." Judging from the known general
ages of many of RAS' U.S. posters, I suspect my general background isn't a
solitary experience.

Let's hear it for: 1) learning the basics well; 2) gaining the basic
experience without avoidable (expensive) trauma; 3) having fun soaring! The
rest is just details...

Bob W.

[joesimmers[_2_]]

Dan, Really Great post!!

Except you said you need $1000 in your pocket, I think in
reality the number is closer to $2000, contest flying
can consume a lot of money. You can blow better part of
a grand on the hotel room alone in one week.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 7:35:20 AM UTC-5, joesimmers wrote:
> Dan, Really Great post!!
>
> Except you said you need $1000 in your pocket, I think in
> reality the number is closer to $2000, contest flying
> can consume a lot of money. You can blow better part of
> a grand on the hotel room alone in one week.

If the cost drivers are gas, housing, and vacation time. The answer is many local consecutive weekend races. How long a drive is reasonable? Say 5 hours for a guess? Draw a 5 hour driving circle around your gliderport then plan a consecutive weekend race somewhere in that circle. If you don't mind waking up early that is only two nights in a hotel. Camping is far more tolerable for two days instead of ten.

[[email protected]]

Yes Joe and Greg, you have both got valid points. I know even back in the late 70's when I was crewing for my brother and we were hitting every regional in the west to get tuned up for the Nationals, we blew thru a small fortune of cash. But then I didn't worry about it much since my bro was a senior captain flying airlines so it was chicken scratch for him.

I do really like the idea of consecutive weekend contests. That is a good way to go for sport class and club guys to get into contest flying on a budget. I am living in the FL panhandle area so going north or going NE opens up a lot of possibilities for contest participation. My only problem is I fly crop dusters for a living so my busy time is from the end of June thru sept. That is a bummer. What's the old saying? When I have the time I don't have the money, when I have the money, I don't have the time lol. But as stated in my first post, desire will always find a way.
Dan

[smfidler]

Great! It sounds like you guys have identified a common interest. What are you guys waiting for? Start organizing some more of these weekend contests, racing series (one weekend a month for example) or fun competitions. Whatever you guys want to do is great! So do it. Get these events going. Make it happen. Make a plan and then submit dates and details to the SSA contest/event calendar page (http://www.ssa.org/ContestCommittee?show=blog&id=3110) by emailing your event particulars to this email address: . Maybe even put a simple website up for the event, etc.

Plenty of time is left to organize some things for this coming season.

I wish there was more organized events in the great lakes region for example...unfortunately I'm pretty busy with this one, www.sgp.aero/usa2016, in July.

Good luck on these. I hope some of you follow thru. I look forward to partaking in one or two.

Sean

[smfidler]

Great! It sounds like you guys have identified a common interest. What are you guys waiting for? Start organizing some more of these weekend contests, racing series (one weekend a month for example) or fun competitions. Whatever you guys want to do is great! So do it. Get these events going. Make it happen. Make a plan and then submit dates and details to the SSA contest/event calendar page (http://www.ssa.org/ContestCommittee?show=blog&id=3110) by emailing your event particulars to this email address: . Maybe even put a simple website up for the event, etc.

Plenty of time is left to organize some things for this coming season.

I wish there was more organized events in the great lakes region for example...unfortunately I'm pretty busy with this one, www.sgp.aero/usa2016, in July.

Good luck on these. I hope some of you follow thru. I look forward to partaking in one or two.

Sean

[smfidler]

Great! It sounds like you guys have identified a common interest. What are you guys waiting for? Start organizing some more of these weekend contests, racing series (one weekend a month for example) or fun competitions. Whatever you guys want to do is great! So do it. Get these events going. Make it happen. Make a plan and then submit dates and details to the SSA contest/event calendar page (http://www.ssa.org/ContestCommittee?show=blog&id=3110) by emailing your event particulars to this email address: . Maybe even put a simple website up for the event, etc.

Plenty of time is left to organize some things for this coming season.

I wish there was more organized events in the great lakes region for example...unfortunately I'm pretty busy with this one, www.sgp.aero/usa2016, in July.

Good luck on these. I hope some of you follow thru. I look forward to partaking in one or two.

Sean

[Jock Proudfoot]

At 17:04 12 February 2016, smfidler wrote:
>
>I wish there was more organized events in the great lakes region
>Sean
>

2016 Canadian National Soaring Championships
http://nationals.yorksoaring.com/

[smfidler]

Well Candian Nationals is a given Mr Proudfoot!