Differences in Italian vs US soaring instruction?

[Michael]

Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and
Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started
training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who
wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI
certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already
noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US
glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know.

So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is
not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ
from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in
formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he
has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it
in the US.

I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the
US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I
can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in
depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and
have had no luck at all.

Michael

[Lars Peder Hansen]

Hello Michael,

I am not familiar with the Italian procedures, I live and fly in
Denmark. -But as a fellow instructor, I find it very reassuring and positive
that you take this approach to your instructing. -I have met others that
just fall into the habit of concluding that any "foreign" instruction and
procedures are simply inferior..

I have flown in quite a few countries around the Globe, including the
USA. -And yes, the procedures are different. Flying basics are the same, off
course, but it is the little things that gets you. E.g.. waggle the rudder
means "go" in the US as I remember it. -Found out when I checked the control
surfaces at the runway at Minden one day some years ago ;-)

It would certainly be helpful (and maybe even save a life or two) if there
was some kind of central database on the web where one could look up a
summary of the procedures used in various countries. Is this something that
the SSA could do in the US? What about the IGC? -the FAI? It seems like an
obvious task for the international, as well as the larger national
organizations.

Happy soaring,
Lars Peder





"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and
> Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started
> training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who
> wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI
> certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already
> noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US
> glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know.
>
> So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is
> not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ
> from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in
> formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he
> has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it
> in the US.
>
> I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the
> US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I
> can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in
> depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and
> have had no luck at all.
>
> Michael

[Basil Fairston]

PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be
accurate.

>
> "Michael" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and
> > Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started
> > training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who
> > wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI
> > certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already
> > noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US
> > glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know.
> >
> > So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is
> > not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ
> > from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in
> > formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he
> > has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it
> > in the US.
> >
> > I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the
> > US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I
> > can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in
> > depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and
> > have had no luck at all.
> >
> > Michael
>
>

[Stephen Thomas]

PTS? isn't that another TLA?



"Basil Fairston" > wrote in message >...
> PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be
> accurate.
>
> >
> > "Michael" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and
> > > Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started
> > > training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who
> > > wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI
> > > certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already
> > > noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US
> > > glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know.
> > >
> > > So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is
> > > not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ
> > > from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in
> > > formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he
> > > has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it
> > > in the US.
> > >
> > > I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the
> > > US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I
> > > can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in
> > > depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and
> > > have had no luck at all.
> > >
> > > Michael
> >
> >

[Stefan]

Stephen Thomas wrote:
>
> PTS? isn't that another TLA?

Now what the hell is TLA?? And please don't answer with yet another
obscure acronym.

To the original questions: I don't know the Italian habits either, but I
know one thing: Never, never assume any habits as granted. Eg. at my
airfield there are two soaring clubs, and even the procedures of these
two clubs differ substantially. (Such as, when winch launching, whose
responibility is it to observe final (wing hoder vs start observer), who
does the radio with the winch driver (start observer vs. pilot) etc.)
Then, nobody here around considers rudder waggling to be any signal at
all. Everybody waggles with all control surfaces and with the airbrakes
just as a prestart check. (All our gliders are radio equipped, something
thing that *we* take as granted.) The big problem is, you can't just ask
people what their habits are, because they are so used to them that they
are no longer aware that these are habits.

Formal cross country preparation? I have no idea what you mean by this.
Usually I have a rough plan, go up and then fly this plan or change it
according to weather situation and mood. My only "plan" is to always
stay within gliding range of a landeable field.

PTS landing? Whatever this may be, a landing is considered correct if
the glider is smoothly put down within the first 60 meters of the
runway. No, we have no name for this.

Bottom line: I would recommend that you just go through the whole
routine with a foreign pilot. Encourage him to comment your procedures,
whether they meet what he has done or whether they differ or whether
they are entirely new to him or whether he misses something. Like this,
you both will learn something.

Stefan

[Gail]

> PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be
> accurate.

Here...here! Although having said that, my parking isn't always quite as
elegant as it should be, but then my excuse is that I'm a novice pilot with
only a mere 130+ hours.

Talking of international differences, I was talking to a German glider pilot
recently and we were discussing aerotows. When I suggested that we (glider
pilots in the UK) release and climb left, he said 'oh, in Germany its the
other way around, we release and climb right!' I'm glad I found this out
early it might have saved me from a nasty accident in the future.

The curious thing about all of this is I would have thought that all FAI
members would have subscribed to the same standards but it seems not so.


Gail

[Simon Walker]

Hi Gail,

There is actually no prescribed direction to turn at
release of tow in the UK.
You can turn either way, and I do. However, most people
do assume that it is 'Turn left off tow'
What kind of nasty accident do you imagine might happen
if you turn left instead of right or vice versa?




At 15:06 16 July 2003, Gail wrote:
>
>> PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings
>>are supposed to be
>> accurate.
>
>Here...here! Although having said that, my parking
>isn't always quite as
>elegant as it should be, but then my excuse is that
>I'm a novice pilot with
>only a mere 130+ hours.
>
>Talking of international differences, I was talking
>to a German glider pilot
>recently and we were discussing aerotows. When I suggested
>that we (glider
>pilots in the UK) release and climb left, he said 'oh,
>in Germany its the
>other way around, we release and climb right!' I'm
>glad I found this out
>early it might have saved me from a nasty accident
>in the future.
>
>The curious thing about all of this is I would have
>thought that all FAI
>members would have subscribed to the same standards
>but it seems not so.
>
>
>Gail
>
>
>

[Simon Walker]

Hi Gail,

There is actually no prescribed way to turn at release
of tow in the UK.
You can turn either way, and I regularly do.
Sometimes there can be cloud to the left and also when
I'm being towed into an aerobatic box I will very often
turn right depending on my desired positioning.
It is generally accepted however that most people turn
left.
Give a climbing right turn a go next time and see which
way the tuggie turns!
Usually they are pretty good and turn the opposite
way it's only when they are flying on mental autopilot
that they instinctively turn right.
with a glider in a climbing right turn and tug in a
descending right turn there should still be no conflict.
So no nasty accidents.


At 15:06 16 July 2003, Gail wrote:
>
>> PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings
>>are supposed to be
>> accurate.
>
>Here...here! Although having said that, my parking
>isn't always quite as
>elegant as it should be, but then my excuse is that
>I'm a novice pilot with
>only a mere 130+ hours.
>
>Talking of international differences, I was talking
>to a German glider pilot
>recently and we were discussing aerotows. When I suggested
>that we (glider
>pilots in the UK) release and climb left, he said 'oh,
>in Germany its the
>other way around, we release and climb right!' I'm
>glad I found this out
>early it might have saved me from a nasty accident
>in the future.
>
>The curious thing about all of this is I would have
>thought that all FAI
>members would have subscribed to the same standards
>but it seems not so.
>
>
>Gail
>
>
>

[Michael]

"Basil Fairston" > wrote
> PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be
> accurate.

Since I started this mess, I'll try to answer some of the questions.
While I've replied to this message in particular, I've included the
points raised in others.

PTS means practical test standards, which are detailed descriptions of
what is covered on a checkride. http://av-info.faa.gov/ is a web site
that contains them. It includes a description of an accuracy landing.
If you've not flown in the US, I assure you it's not what you think
it is.

In this situation (training a pilot who is already proficient towards
a rating) many maneuvers will only be performed once or twice. There
is no real syllabus for this kind of training, and relatively few
flights are required. It's not a big deal if I were training a
US-trained glider pilot towards the commercial and CFI, because he
would have absorbed normal operating practices and habits while
training towards the private. In this case, I am training an
Italian-trained pilot, who has absorbed DIFFERENT normal operating
practices and habits. I have already noticed some that are
safety-critical, including the rudder waggle that is used by the
glider pilot to signal the start of tow in the US. It is not
reasonable to have him repeat the entire private syllabus, and
suggesting this certainly implies that the foreign training is somehow
inferior.

Formal XC planning is a normal staple of instruction in the US.
Briefly, in the US glider XC is taught as a series of
airport-to-airport hops, such that an outlanding will most likely be
at an airport. I know many US-trained glider pilots who are active in
XC flying and have never landed anywhere other than an airport,
because they use this method. I use this method myself - I have
limited experience in off-airport operations (all power) and recognize
their unavoidable hazards; I am thus not very interested in hearing
that this is unnecessary.

The planning is done by assuming a reduced glide ratio (typically half
of what is published) and drawing segments between airports. Winds
aloft data and polar information are then used to determine minimum
altitudes for going ahead at any given point, as well as predicted
groundspeeds and crosswind correction angles. The method is not
perfect (once I nearly had to land off airport due to some strong
unexpected sink) but it does reduce the probability of an off-airport
landing with the consequent hazards of unknown field conditions and
obstacles that are not seen until too late.

The formal XC planning process is a transitional stage; with
experience a pilot learns to judge go-ahead points by eye. However, I
believe it is a useful method that formalizes the many factors
involved and allows a low time glider pilot to venture out with a
measure of confidence. It is certainly unacceptable for any glider
instructor in the US to be unfamiliar with this process, since it is
the norm here.

In the US, we turn right and climb on release. Italy seems to do the
same. I understand that some countries do otherwise. Obviously
either way is fine, as long as both glider and tow pilot are on the
same page.

Michael

[Martin Gregorie]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:38:07 +0100, "Gail"
> wrote:

>
>> PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be
>> accurate.
>
>Here...here! Although having said that, my parking isn't always quite as
>elegant as it should be, but then my excuse is that I'm a novice pilot with
>only a mere 130+ hours.
>
>Talking of international differences, I was talking to a German glider pilot
>recently and we were discussing aerotows. When I suggested that we (glider
>pilots in the UK) release and climb left, he said 'oh, in Germany its the
>other way around, we release and climb right!' I'm glad I found this out
>early it might have saved me from a nasty accident in the future.
>
Not everywhere in the UK.

At Cambridge we climb to the right after release like the rest of the
world - except during the Gransden Regionals where we climb left to
keep the visitors happy. I don't know the reason behind this - it
predates my membership by a long time.

>The curious thing about all of this is I would have thought that all FAI
>members would have subscribed to the same standards but it seems not so.
>
They do just about everywhere outside the UK. I've heard the basis is
that a left turning tug gives its left-seat pilot a better view of
goings on below him.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Gail]

"Simon Walker" > wrote in message
...

> There is actually no prescribed way to turn at release
> of tow in the UK.
> You can turn either way, and I regularly do.

Clearly I've been misinformed. I have learned this technique from my local
club and have relatively little experience of other clubs/locations. I shall
definately make enquiries at my local club, I'm sure there must be a good
reason for it.

best wishes
Gail

[Owain Walters]

Gail,

Turn left as I am assuming you have been told. The
tug pilot almost always turns and dives to the right
in the UK unless you are in contact with them i.e.
a situation where you are in a right turn climbing
in a thermal and you agree to reverse the convention.

Owain





At 20:48 16 July 2003, Gail wrote:
>
>'Simon Walker' wrote in message
...
>
>> There is actually no prescribed way to turn at release
>> of tow in the UK.
>> You can turn either way, and I regularly do.
>
>Clearly I've been misinformed. I have learned this
>technique from my local
>club and have relatively little experience of other
>clubs/locations. I shall
>definately make enquiries at my local club, I'm sure
>there must be a good
>reason for it.
>
>best wishes
>Gail
>
>
>

[Tim]

Simon Walker >s comments read:

>Usually they are pretty good and turn the opposite
>way it's only when they are flying on mental autopilot
>that they instinctively turn right.

Fine if you can count on your tug pilots ..

>with a glider in a climbing right turn and tug in a
>descending right turn there should still be no conflict.
>So no nasty accidents.

Agreed so whether they are awake or not should be immaterial - unless
you pull of as they are flying to slow for you when you are full of
water ...
--
Tim - ASW20CL "20"

[Andrew Warbrick]

This is a particularly impressive document. The definition
of an accuracy landing includes stopping within 200ft
(120m) but not beyond a reference point.

Last time I checked there were 3.281ft in a metre,
making 120m nearly 400ft. Doh! Looks like it's not
what you think it is either!

At 18:06 16 July 2003, Michael wrote:
>'Basil Fairston' wrote
>> PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings
>>are supposed to be
>> accurate.
>
>Since I started this mess, I'll try to answer some
>of the questions.
>While I've replied to this message in particular, I've
>included the
>points raised in others.
>
>PTS means practical test standards, which are detailed
>descriptions of
>what is covered on a checkride. http://av-info.faa.gov/
>is a web site
>that contains them. It includes a description of an
>accuracy landing.
> If you've not flown in the US, I assure you it's not
>what you think
>it is.
>

[Bert Willing]

Well what I do is
1. release
2. watch the rope snap off
3. watch the tug turning
4. turn to the opposite

Only exception would be if I'm towed under a ridge (neither tugs nor
sailplanes take great pleasure to turn into the ridge) - then I just keep
the visual contact to the tug until the vertical seperation is ok.

Bert
"Owain Walters" > a écrit
dans le message de ...
> Gail,
>
> Turn left as I am assuming you have been told. The
> tug pilot almost always turns and dives to the right
> in the UK unless you are in contact with them i.e.
> a situation where you are in a right turn climbing
> in a thermal and you agree to reverse the convention.
>
> Owain
>
>
>
>
>
> At 20:48 16 July 2003, Gail wrote:
> >
> >'Simon Walker' wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >> There is actually no prescribed way to turn at release
> >> of tow in the UK.
> >> You can turn either way, and I regularly do.
> >
> >Clearly I've been misinformed. I have learned this
> >technique from my local
> >club and have relatively little experience of other
> >clubs/locations. I shall
> >definately make enquiries at my local club, I'm sure
> >there must be a good
> >reason for it.
> >
> >best wishes
> >Gail
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Chris Reed]

Flying at Ocana in Spain a couple of years ago, the standard tug response to
releasing the cable was to roll inverted and then pull through! I'm not sure
what the glider pilot should do in these circumstances, other than watch in
amazement.

"Tim" > wrote in message
...
> Simon Walker >s comments read:
>
> >Usually they are pretty good and turn the opposite
> >way it's only when they are flying on mental autopilot
> >that they instinctively turn right.
>
> Fine if you can count on your tug pilots ..
>
> >with a glider in a climbing right turn and tug in a
> >descending right turn there should still be no conflict.
> >So no nasty accidents.
>
> Agreed so whether they are awake or not should be immaterial - unless
> you pull of as they are flying to slow for you when you are full of
> water ...
> --
> Tim - ASW20CL "20"

[Simon Walker]

Well, in any situation there are always going to be
'Ah but what if's'
That's why we all, hopefully, use a big dash of common
sense when flying, try and anticipate possible problems
and modify our actions to minimise the risk in any
given situation.

Therefore, if you have a ballasted ASW20 being towed
too slowly and you have to release common sense would
dictate a turn to the left.

'Ah, but what if you had gliders thermalling off your
port wing, or the ridge, or cloud, or blah, blah, blah'

But, in most situations when you have energy and as
long as you have acheived separation from the rope
and rings then a climbing turn in either direction
is fine.

I can already hear somebody saying 'Ah, but what if
the widget thrup became disconnected from the thingummy
and then the sky fell on your head'

You can turn either left or right in the UK.


At 09:48 17 July 2003, Tim wrote:
>Simon Walker s comments read:
>
>>Usually they are pretty good and turn the opposite
>>way it's only when they are flying on mental autopilot
>>that they instinctively turn right.
>
>Fine if you can count on your tug pilots ..
>
>>with a glider in a climbing right turn and tug in a
>>descending right turn there should still be no conflict.
>>So no nasty accidents.
>
>Agreed so whether they are awake or not should be immaterial
>- unless
>you pull of as they are flying to slow for you when
>you are full of
>water ...
>--
>Tim - ASW20CL '20'
>

[Mike Borgelt]

On 16 Jul 2003 16:39:49 GMT, Simon Walker
> wrote:

>
>Hi Gail,
>
>There is actually no prescribed direction to turn at
>release of tow in the UK.
>You can turn either way, and I do. However, most people
>do assume that it is 'Turn left off tow'
>What kind of nasty accident do you imagine might happen
>if you turn left instead of right or vice versa?

On my one and only flight in a glider in the UK(Astir 77) I turned
right off tow and so did the towplane! I could see the dirty look the
pilot was giving me. I was told later the glider turns left off tow in
the UK.
In Australia the glider turns right, the towplane turns left. This
guarantees that the two lose sight fo each other and yes we have had a
mid air due to this. As the fighter pilots say " lost sight - lost
fight"

Maybe we should organise things so the two keep sight of each other
until positive separation has been established?

Mike Borgelt

[Simon Walker]

One should of course also roll inverted and pull through
behind the tug to fool hin into thinking that the cable
didn't release. This is guaranteed to give tuggie a
heart attack.


At 11:48 17 July 2003, Chris Reed wrote:
>Flying at Ocana in Spain a couple of years ago, the
>standard tug response to
>releasing the cable was to roll inverted and then pull
>through! I'm not sure
>what the glider pilot should do in these circumstances,
>other than watch in
>amazement.
>
>'Tim' wrote in message
...
>> Simon Walker s comments read:
>>
>> >Usually they are pretty good and turn the opposite
>> >way it's only when they are flying on mental autopilot
>> >that they instinctively turn right.
>>
>> Fine if you can count on your tug pilots ..
>>
>> >with a glider in a climbing right turn and tug in
>>>a
>> >descending right turn there should still be no conflict.
>> >So no nasty accidents.
>>
>> Agreed so whether they are awake or not should be
>>immaterial - unless
>> you pull of as they are flying to slow for you when
>>you are full of
>> water ...
>> --
>> Tim - ASW20CL '20'
>
>
>

[Stephen Cook]

Two pilots in my club have recently completed an assistant instructors
course in the UK. Apparently they are now being taught not to turn, but to
achieve separation from the tug by climbing (i.e. slowing down) straight
ahead.

Stephen

"Mike Borgelt" > wrote in message
...
> On 16 Jul 2003 16:39:49 GMT, Simon Walker
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >Hi Gail,
> >
> >There is actually no prescribed direction to turn at
> >release of tow in the UK.
> >You can turn either way, and I do. However, most people
> >do assume that it is 'Turn left off tow'
> >What kind of nasty accident do you imagine might happen
> >if you turn left instead of right or vice versa?
>
> On my one and only flight in a glider in the UK(Astir 77) I turned
> right off tow and so did the towplane! I could see the dirty look the
> pilot was giving me. I was told later the glider turns left off tow in
> the UK.
> In Australia the glider turns right, the towplane turns left. This
> guarantees that the two lose sight fo each other and yes we have had a
> mid air due to this. As the fighter pilots say " lost sight - lost
> fight"
>
> Maybe we should organise things so the two keep sight of each other
> until positive separation has been established?
>
> Mike Borgelt

[Tim]

"Stephen Cook" >s comments read:

>Two pilots in my club have recently completed an assistant instructors
>course in the UK. Apparently they are now being taught not to turn, but to
>achieve separation from the tug by climbing (i.e. slowing down) straight
>ahead.

Which would mirror my recent flight with the National Coach who said
"climb to achieve separation"
--
Tim - ASW20CL "20"

[Simon Walker]

I think I know him or, one just like him! :-)


At 14:54 17 July 2003, Tim wrote:
>Simon Walker s comments read:
>
>>Well, in any situation there are always going to be
>>'Ah but what if's'
>>That's why we all, hopefully, use a big dash of common
>>sense when flying, try and anticipate possible problems
>>and modify our actions to minimise the risk in any
>> given situation.
>
>Absolutely - I was just thinking an ex-tuggie I knew
>and feared.
>
>Occasionally the best option was 'Winch please!'
>--
>Tim - ASW20CL '20'
>

[Michael]

(soarski) wrote
> If I read your coments correctly, the student has US licenses
> allready?

Yes - commercial/CFI, single and twin.

> So give him the complete transition course, Power to gliding.
> including all the SSA stuff,(signs)

This is exactly what I don't wish to do. He doesn't need a complete
transition course, power to gliding. He is already a competent glider
pilot. Repeating the basics would be a waste of time and money. I
would much prefer to be able to focus on the areas that are different
between the US and Italy, since in other areas he really requires no
instruction at all.

Michael

[Stefan]

Michael wrote:
>
> This is exactly what I don't wish to do. He doesn't need a complete
> transition course, power to gliding. He is already a competent glider
> pilot. Repeating the basics would be a waste of time and money.

Agreed. But why not sit down with him and discuss the procedures? As I
interpret your posts, in the USA, you have fairly strict procedures
written on paper. In other countries, this is not nesseceraily so. I
don't know for Italy, but in Switzerland, it's pretty much up to the
individual instructor, which procedures he emphasises. E.g. you must do
a cross country with an instructor before you're allowed to take the
checkride. But nowhere it is written what the instructor tells you
during this cross country. So good instructors have you prepare the
flight, draw circles on the map around the airports, have you do all
kinds of calculations during the flight, often ask you where you would
land from here, ask you where the next thermal is supposed to be etc. If
you do the same flight with a bad instructor, then it's just a nice
flight from which you won't learn much. so I really think your best
choice would be to spend an hour and dicuss the procedures.

Stefan

[miriano]

Micael

I just happen to be an Italian pilot who now flies out of Minden. The
only substantial difference that I can think of is that in Italy we do
not have a real equivalent of a PTS, the description of the practical
exams for the licence is not so detailed. I'm not sure if this is good
or bad, on one side pilots do not end up with "if I know to do A, B
and C in this exact way I'm good enough", on the other the practical
knowledge is pretty much depending from the person of your instructor.
Maybe some other italian fellow pilot can comment on this.

That said, I've got the occasion to fly in different places in Italy
and in France before coming here. Almost all places (every different
club/operation) are actually having some kind of "special" way to do
things. Here I've flown only out of Minden and Truckee, and while I do
have seen interesting and distinctive points (that famous "waggling
the tail" to start...) they are not much more than everything a good
pilot have to check out anycase while flying on a new airport.

....I'm just wondering, how happened that guy has US power and CFI, and
then Italian gliders?...

Of course, if you have any specific question I might help you out you
can contact me directly.

Regards


(Michael) wrote in message >...
> Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and
> Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started
> training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who
> wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI
> certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already
> noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US
> glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know.
>
> So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is
> not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ
> from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in
> formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he
> has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it
> in the US.
>
> I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the
> US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I
> can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in
> depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and
> have had no luck at all.
>
> Michael

[Michael]

Stefan <"stefan"@mus. INVALID .ch> wrote
> Agreed. But why not sit down with him and discuss the procedures?

We did, at length. And I was able to identify a number of areas where
his training was different, and in some cases not as extensive as in
the US. Of course we went over those areas (including, surprisingly,
some flight maneuvers) until he was up to us comm/CFI standards.

But this is my very first time training a CFI candidate OR a foreign
transition pilot, in any category/class. Call it paranoia if you
will, but in so far as it is humanly possible, I wanted to be sure
there were no fine points that I left out.

> As I
> interpret your posts, in the USA, you have fairly strict procedures
> written on paper.

We have the Practical Test Standards and the Soaring Flight Manual.
Due to the nature of our training, ALL US-trained pilots are familiar
with both. The former describes the checkride maneuvers and
performance standards; the latter normal operating practices. Thus we
all have the same signals, we all turn the same direction on release,
etc...

> so I really think your best
> choice would be to spend an hour and dicuss the procedures.

We have spent significantly more than an hour. Had we uncovered only
two or three differences, I would be less concerned. But we uncovered
many, which makes me concerned that maybe we missed something.

Michael

[Michael]

(miriano) wrote
> ...I'm just wondering, how happened that guy has US power and CFI, and
> then Italian gliders?...

He is an Italian pilot who learned to fly (gliders, ultralights, and a
little bit of GA airplane) in Italy, then decided to fly for a living
and came to US to get his ratings.

I appreciate your telling me there is no Italian PTS - I will stop
looking.

Michael

[Stefan]

Michael wrote:
>
> We have the Practical Test Standards and the Soaring Flight Manual.
> Due to the nature of our training, ALL US-trained pilots are familiar
> with both. The former describes the checkride maneuvers and
> performance standards; the latter normal operating practices. Thus we
> all have the same signals, we all turn the same direction on release,
> etc...

This makes me think: Why not have him read those two books? Just an idea...

Stefan

[Michael]

Stefan <"stefan"@mus. INVALID .ch> wrote
> This makes me think: Why not have him read those two books? Just an idea...

Of course I did. In the US, it is almost unthinkable to send a
student to a glider checkride who had not seen these books. The fact
remains that the Soaring Flight Manual mostly contains information
that is already familiar to him. When one must read a book containing
mostly familiar information, it is only human to move quickly - and
maybe miss something.

Michael

[Tony Verhulst]

Mark James Boyd wrote:
> The only thing you can be absolutely certain he DOESN'T know is
> the US CFR's.

Not at all. If you read the original post that started this discussion,
you'll see that the Italian student already has a US comm/CFI power rating.

Tony V.

P.S You're a company called "Powergen" and you have an Italian
subsidiary and you don't know English. What would you call the web site?
How about http://www.powergenitalia, of course. This is a legit web site
- not a joke.

[Mark James Boyd]

The only thing you can be absolutely certain he DOESN'T know is
the US CFR's.
Give him a FAR/AIM. Airspace is also a bit hard to figure for
new pilots. Is G at 1500 or 1200 where not marked in the US?
What do the "fences" mean separating G from E airspace in
mountainous terrain?

http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~mjboyd/cfi/glider/gliderfars

lists the glider specific CFR's/FAR's (whatever you want to call
them, they're still from "the Man"). There are of course a
lot of more general regs, but I put that together for
transitioning US power pilots.


Mark

P.S. I personally would love to go soaring in the U.K., but
I can't seem to quite get the language. I do know that they
really like Bond movies (AKA Roger Moore) and don't like bugs.
I picked at least this up.

But when I mention I'm getting a group of friends to come
over for a good Rogering and would they like to come, or that
there's a lot of buggery in my garage, I get funny
looks from my English co-workers. Is there some nuance
I'm missing?

And "bloody good chips"? They looked like freedom fries to
me, and didn't even have any ketchup. I'm baffled...

Apparently one shouldn't pat a gal on the fanny (extremely rude),
and there's some famous bus driver named "Lorry" and it
isn't an elevator but a lift. Can you imagine? If I said
I was "getting a lift from my friend" it wouldn't make
sense and an English chap (with burned lips?) would suggest
I take a "Lorry."

In the U.K., is Chapstick only for guys? Well, at least they're
smart enough to use the metric system so it makes their
gliders go faster...

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
Tony Verhulst > wrote:

> P.S You're a company called "Powergen" and you have an Italian
> subsidiary and you don't know English. What would you call the web site?
> How about http://www.powergenitalia, of course. This is a legit web site
> - not a joke.

Legitimate company and website, but totally unrelated to the English
company of the same name.

-- Bruce