ASW 24 WL for beginner ?

[Harry]

would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments welcome!

regards
Harry

[Robert Ehrlich]

Harry wrote:
>
> would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments welcome!
>
> regards
> Harry

We had 2 ASW24 in my club, I had flights in both, one of them has winglets and not
the other one. This last one was recently destroyed in an accident. I find some
pecularities of these gliders are not really suited for beginners, but they are
nevertheless very good and safe gliders, as proven by the fact that the pilot
who had the accident was able to walk out of the glider and ask for help at the next
house. What I dislike in these gliders is the lack of efficiency of the ailerons
at low speed, probably due to their small size, especially at the beginning of ground
roll, where they have a marked tendency to drop a wing. The fact that they have only
a CG hook (but maybe specific to the 2 in my club) doesn't help. Beside that this
ship is a relatively high performance ship and as a consequence, as in any such ship,
speed increases quickly with nose down attitude, which may make speed control difficult
for a beginner. In my club there is a sequence of glider types through which you have
to go as your experience grows, namely ASK21, ASK23, LS4, Pegase, ASW24, Discus, LS6.
There is not a true transition between ASW24 and Discus, they are considered as equivalent
as far as pilot's skill and experience is concerned, however I find the Discus is easier
to fly than the ASW24. The pilot who had the accident is the owner of a Ventus 2a he
could not fly this day because a missing annual and some people suggested that one of
the factor lending to the accident was his lack of training on a ship with a handling
significantly different from his usual glider.

[dhofstee]

Ray Lovinggood wrote:
> If you get a ship with a CG hook
> and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn
> all you can from the instructors before you make that
> first launch.
Didn't do that, nearly became a statistic... One of the two moments in
my (never ending) "training" that I don't want to repeat.

> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
Is that the same Ray that was present then? ;-)

David
NL

[Joe Lacour]

I have recently bought an LS-4A with a CG hook. What kind of problems
did you have with aero-towing with a DG hook?

Joe

On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 05:15 PM, Glider Pilot Network wrote:

> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
> Subject: Re: ASW 24 WL for beginner ?
> Author: Dhofstee >
> Date/Time: 22:10 22 July 2003
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Ray Lovinggood wrote:
>> If you get a ship with a CG hook
>> and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn
>> all you can from the instructors before you make that
>> first launch.
> Didn't do that, nearly became a statistic... One of the two moments in
>
> my (never ending) "training" that I don't want to repeat.
>
>> Ray Lovinggood
>> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
> Is that the same Ray that was present then? ;-)
>
> David
> NL
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------

[Ray Lovinggood]

Joe,

When I started flying my LS-1 with it's CG hook, I
probably had never aero-towed with a CG hook. I had
aero-towed with nose hooks and winch launched with
CG hooks and probably had about 300 hours (?). I did
experience a problem on my first takeoff that can be
attributed to the CG hook and a bit of tail-heaviness
in the glider. It was cured with a proper 'A&P' certified
weight and balance with me in the cockpit and the glider
sitting on the scales. We added weight to the nose
(since then, I've added weight around my belly...)

I would think an experienced pilot should handle the
CG hook for aerotowing well, but a newly licensed pilot,
I think, should get a lot of information from the instructor.
Maybe allow the instructor to fly the ship some before
he, the newly licensed pilot does, so the instructor
can discuss the flying characteristic? Also, if a
two-place ship is available with a CG hook, could it
legally and safely be aerotowed with the CG hook if
a nose hook is available? If so, why not do some dual
with the instructor in the two-seater?

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina

PS: To David Hofstee. Hi David. Still the same Ray
here on the 'liberal' side of Chapel Hole!


At 22:36 22 July 2003, Joe Lacour wrote:
>I have recently bought an LS-4A with a CG hook. What
>kind of problems
>did you have with aero-towing with a DG hook?
>
>Joe
>
>On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 05:15 PM, Glider Pilot
>Network wrote:
>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
>> Subject: Re: ASW 24 WL for beginner ?
>> Author: Dhofstee
>> Date/Time: 22:10 22 July 2003
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> Ray Lovinggood wrote:
>>> If you get a ship with a CG hook
>>> and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn
>>> all you can from the instructors before you make that
>>> first launch.
>> Didn't do that, nearly became a statistic... One of
>>the two moments in
>>
>> my (never ending) 'training' that I don't want to
>>repeat.
>>
>>> Ray Lovinggood
>>> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>> Is that the same Ray that was present then? ;-)
>>
>> David
>> NL
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>

[Marc Ramsey]

"Joe Lacour" > wrote...
> I have recently bought an LS-4A with a CG hook. What kind of problems
> did you have with aero-towing with a DG hook?

CG hooks are intended to facilitate the kind of climb angles needed for an
efficient winch launch, and will do so, even if you happen to be behind a
towplane. This can be avoided by setting full-forward trim prior to takeoff.
Once you are going fast enough for adequate rudder control, use forward pressure
on the stick to lift the tail and roll along on the mainwheel behind the
towplane. When you are going fast enough to lift off, release the forward
pressure, but resist the temptation to pull back.

Marc
(who did the kite thang during his first aero-tow in his CG-hook-equipped
DG-101, as well as his Ventus)

[Steve B]

What did you experience or learn... I am curious what not to do!

Thanks
Steve


dhofstee > wrote in message >...
> Ray Lovinggood wrote:
> > If you get a ship with a CG hook
> > and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn
> > all you can from the instructors before you make that
> > first launch.
> Didn't do that, nearly became a statistic... One of the two moments in
> my (never ending) "training" that I don't want to repeat.
>
> > Ray Lovinggood
> > Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
> Is that the same Ray that was present then? ;-)
>
> David
> NL

[Ulrich]

Although the ASW-24 is a delightful glider to fly and behaves very
well in almost all situations, I would not recommend it for recently
licensed pilots, mostly because it requires a fair amount of precision
on landing. The airspeed must be tightly controlled and the circuit
planned and executed exactly for short field landings. While the dive
brakes are reasonably good but improper airspeed control reduces their
effectiveness. It does slip quite well but, again, this is a maneouvre
that many new pilots will find difficult in a glider like this. I
would recommend other gliders for newly licensed pilots, such as, for
example, the LS-4.

Ulli Werneburg
ASW-24 #24078 'MZ'

(Harry) wrote in message >...
> would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments welcome!
>
> regards
> Harry

[Bill Daniels]

"Ray Lovinggood" > wrote in message
...
Snip----

> Also, if a two-place ship is available with a CG hook, could it
> legally and safely be aerotowed with the CG hook if
> a nose hook is available? If so, why not do some dual
> with the instructor in the two-seater?
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina

It's legal and a good idea. I've done this sort of transition training many
times using a variety of two-place trainers equipped with CG hooks. If the
pilot flies the airtow within normal limits there are few differences to
show the effect of the CG hook. However, if the glider gets high, things
can go bad in an instant. I always brief the tug pilot that if he feels the
tail being pulled up, he should release his end of the rope instantly.

Occasionally, a transitioning pilot will turn up who has a habit of relying
on the nose mounted hook to help keep him in position laterally. That
pilot, when flying with a CG hook, will have to learn to fly the glider more
aggressively to stay in position.

There were some flights testing air towing with CG hooks done in the UK.
The take-home lesson seemed to be that a glider in a too-high position with
a nose hook is still recoverable. With a CG hook, the situation becomes
unrecoverable in an eyeblink. Air towing with a CG hook creates a situation
where things can appear controllable one instant and completely out of
control the next.

This is what prompted the LBA to mandate the installation of nose hooks for
airtow in Germany. I wouldn't go that far, but replacing the tug's
Schweitzer hook that can't be released under a strong up-load with a Tost
hook that can makes a lot of sense.

Bill Daniels

[Stephen Szikora]

Why wouldn't you "go that far"?

Every glider should be equipped with a nose hook. In today's world, how
many of us will ever fly off a winch? The nose hook should be standard with
the c of g hook optional, not the other way around! We should insist on
nose hooks on all new gliders and stop letting our knuckle-dragging egos
cling to the past.

>
> This is what prompted the LBA to mandate the installation of nose hooks
for
> airtow in Germany. I wouldn't go that far, but replacing the tug's
> Schweitzer hook that can't be released under a strong up-load with a Tost
> hook that can makes a lot of sense.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
Ray Lovinggood > wrote:

> Ask the instructors about other gliders, as well, but
> also find out if the ship you are leaning towards has
> a CG hook or a nose hook. Flying aero-tow with a CG
> hook may (will!) be a bit trickier than flying aero-tow
> with a nose hook. If you get a ship with a CG hook
> and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn
> all you can from the instructors before you make that
> first launch.

Or fly a two seater with a CG hook.

I fly a Janus with a CG hook. I know that you need to be very careful
not to get too high, least it start to "winch launch" behind the
towplane, but frankly I don't think the CG hook makes it noticably
harder to fly a normal aerotow than, say, a Grob Twin.

The very sensitive and light all-flying tailplane, on the other hand,
does keep you awake -- it's a *far* bigger factor than the CG hook.

The biggest annoyance actually is that unless you're reasonably high
behind the tug the rope tends to catch a little on the nosewheel and
make a twang as it passes from side to side.

-- Bruce

[Bruce Greeff]

Depends where you are.

There are winches at every club I have ever visited in South Africa.
At my club we gave up on Aerotow 8 years ago.
It is expensive.
It is slow.
It is more dangerous in some ways.
We have predictable enough thermals that we have very low 'relight'
incidence.

That said, you need aerotow when you have long wings, or are carrying
water or need the height or physical displacement to be able to contact
lift. The nose hooks on our gliders are pristine, make us an offer...

Stephen Szikora wrote:
> Why wouldn't you "go that far"?
>
> Every glider should be equipped with a nose hook. In today's world, how
> many of us will ever fly off a winch? The nose hook should be standard with
> the c of g hook optional, not the other way around! We should insist on
> nose hooks on all new gliders and stop letting our knuckle-dragging egos
> cling to the past.
>
>
>>This is what prompted the LBA to mandate the installation of nose hooks
>
> for
>
>>airtow in Germany. I wouldn't go that far, but replacing the tug's
>>Schweitzer hook that can't be released under a strong up-load with a Tost
>>hook that can makes a lot of sense.
>>
>>Bill Daniels
>>
>
>
>

[CH]

I flew about 1000h in my ASW24.
I never had a wing down situation at the start with equally loaded ballast.
I always take off with the brakes pulled
- not to over roll the rope on asphalt
- to give more control to the ailerons
- have lass influence of propeller gusts with side wind
I cannot understand that mostly only competition pilots use this start
procedure.
If the aileron response is too sluggish in circling, then your circle speed
is too low. The ASW24 only climbs well, if you fly it at least 10km/h
above stall speed.
I modified my ASW24 before the WGC1995 in Omarama NZ to B
profiling and attached the winglets. I always flew the ASW24 about
3-5kg/m2 lighter than my friends did with Discus, DG300....
In this configuration I climbed the same, but still glided better above
150km/h.

The ASW24 cannot be flown like an LS4 - pull in the climb until it
shakes and then let go a bit. It needs more training to fly the ship
properly, to get the performance it has.
You also have to fly proper yaw. All slender fuselage designs need to
be flown within less yaw tolerance to keep the airflow along the
airframe turbulence "free".
With properly installed winglets you take the feet off the pedals and
the 24 centres yaw itself (that works for quite all winglet gliders).

Beginners must be told, that the 24 does not shake the elevator before
stalling. But the stalling behaviour within the proper CG is forgiving.
The glider is easy to fly, but needs to be flown more precisely to have
fun. The 24 has good stability and damping behaviour. You can trim
it, let go the stick "and eat a sandwich" (I would not try in a Discus).

Chris Hostettler


"Robert Ehrlich" > wrote in message
...
> Harry wrote:
> >
> > would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments
welcome!
> >
> > regards
> > Harry
>
> We had 2 ASW24 in my club, I had flights in both, one of them has winglets
and not
> the other one. This last one was recently destroyed in an accident. I find
some
> pecularities of these gliders are not really suited for beginners, but
they are
> nevertheless very good and safe gliders, as proven by the fact that the
pilot
> who had the accident was able to walk out of the glider and ask for help
at the next
> house. What I dislike in these gliders is the lack of efficiency of the
ailerons
> at low speed, probably due to their small size, especially at the
beginning of ground
> roll, where they have a marked tendency to drop a wing. The fact that they
have only
> a CG hook (but maybe specific to the 2 in my club) doesn't help. Beside
that this
> ship is a relatively high performance ship and as a consequence, as in any
such ship,
> speed increases quickly with nose down attitude, which may make speed
control difficult
> for a beginner. In my club there is a sequence of glider types through
which you have
> to go as your experience grows, namely ASK21, ASK23, LS4, Pegase, ASW24,
Discus, LS6.
> There is not a true transition between ASW24 and Discus, they are
considered as equivalent
> as far as pilot's skill and experience is concerned, however I find the
Discus is easier
> to fly than the ASW24. The pilot who had the accident is the owner of a
Ventus 2a he
> could not fly this day because a missing annual and some people suggested
that one of
> the factor lending to the accident was his lack of training on a ship with
a handling
> significantly different from his usual glider.

[Martin Smith]

I have an LS4 with a belly hook and have had "moments" aerotowing from
a hard runway with a crosswind component where the metal tailskid
allowed the glider's tail to weathercock very easily. Last year's
Christmas present was a tailwheel to replace the skid and the
directional control on the ground is much improved.

Martin

Joe Lacour > wrote in message >...
> I have recently bought an LS-4A with a CG hook. What kind of problems
> did you have with aero-towing with a DG hook?
>
> Joe
>
> On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 05:15 PM, Glider Pilot Network wrote:
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
> > Subject: Re: ASW 24 WL for beginner ?
> > Author: Dhofstee >
> > Date/Time: 22:10 22 July 2003
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Ray Lovinggood wrote:
> >> If you get a ship with a CG hook
> >> and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn
> >> all you can from the instructors before you make that
> >> first launch.
> > Didn't do that, nearly became a statistic... One of the two moments in
> >
> > my (never ending) "training" that I don't want to repeat.
> >
> >> Ray Lovinggood
> >> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
> > Is that the same Ray that was present then? ;-)
> >
> > David
> > NL
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------

[Hank Nixon]

(Harry) wrote in message >...
> would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments welcome!
>
> regards
> Harry

Reply:
This depends on the experienceyou have at this time and how your
training was done.
The '24 is a very honest glider with excellent stabilty.
Early versions without winglets do exhibit some wing tip drop at stall
if not well coordinated. That said, there is reliable warning. This is
helped a lot by the factory added winglets and even more by
aftermarket winglets in use in some countries.
Speed control is important in landing but not remarkably so.
The '24 was the first of the new generation of gliders with enhanced
safety as an important part of the design. Many manufacturers are just
now starting to catch up.
These include progressive failure in the cockpit area, Upper safety
beam in the cockpit, seat pan design, powerful hydraulic brake,
landing gear designed to fail progresively absorbing energy, and other
detail features.
Towing is honest with CG hook. Most in Europe will have the forward
nose hook installed. If flying with 30M ropes, I would suggest nose
hook for added safety.
If you were trained in modern glass, get some spin training and a few
hours in LS4 or similar and go for it.
I owned a '24 for 13 years and really enjoyed it.
Good luck UH

[mm]

The poster that you are replying to below seems to be a Canadian. Therefore
you should have written "Thankfully Canada is not the only country on this
planet..." or "Thankfully North America is not the only continent on this
planet...". Otherwise you are just betraying your prejudice.



"tango4" > wrote in message news:bfl3d9
...
> Thankfully America is not the only country on this planet. In Germany (
> another country in the world, in a place called Europe ) where these
> aircraft are manufactured, winch launching is common. A hook placed at the
> centre CG position is perfectly acceptable for both aerotow and winch
> launching wheras a nose hook is only good ( effectively ) for aerotow.
>
> Ian
>
> "Stephen Szikora" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Why wouldn't you "go that far"?
> >
> > Every glider should be equipped with a nose hook. In today's world, how
> > many of us will ever fly off a winch? The nose hook should be standard
> with
> > the c of g hook optional, not the other way around! We should insist on
> > nose hooks on all new gliders and stop letting our knuckle-dragging egos
> > cling to the past.
> >
> > >
> > > This is what prompted the LBA to mandate the installation of nose
hooks
> > for
> > > airtow in Germany. I wouldn't go that far, but replacing the tug's
> > > Schweitzer hook that can't be released under a strong up-load with a
> Tost
> > > hook that can makes a lot of sense.
> > >
> > > Bill Daniels
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[dhofstee]

Steve B wrote:
> What did you experience or learn... I am curious what not to do!
Don't tow with CG hook without a proper briefing (no pun intended).

The effects are (maybe there is more):
-A nose hook stabilizes direction of the glider. With CG hook, windvane
(??) effect is much stronger. If necessary, put the opposite wing on the
ground.
-stick must be held in forward position so glider doesn't rotate
directly (when enough airspeed is obtained).
-glider is more nervous on elevator in tow.

Again: Don't tow with CG hook without a proper briefing. Knowledge is
only part of the training.

[Bill Daniels]

"Bruce Greeff" > wrote in message
...
> Depends where you are.
>
> There are winches at every club I have ever visited in South Africa.
> At my club we gave up on Aerotow 8 years ago.
> It is expensive.
> It is slow.
> It is more dangerous in some ways.
> We have predictable enough thermals that we have very low 'relight'
> incidence.
>
> That said, you need aerotow when you have long wings, or are carrying
> water or need the height or physical displacement to be able to contact
> lift. The nose hooks on our gliders are pristine, make us an offer...
>

I agree.

Bill Daniels

[Bert Willing]

"dhofstee" > a écrit dans le message de
...
..
> -stick must be held in forward position so glider doesn't rotate
> directly (when enough airspeed is obtained).

Err, no. Stick must be held in full aft position to insure yaw stability
during early ground roll. After that, stick must be used to take off at the
desired airspeed (either by pushing or pulling).
If this seems too difficult, don't fly solo.

[Geoff Vincent]

FWIW,

My experience airotowing using a belly hook has been limited to my PIK
20B, fitted with Mazak winglets, using the Aussie low-tow technique.
Take-off procedure is stock standard:
1. Select full negative flap (-8 deg)
2. Select full forward trim
3. Hold the ship on the ground with back stick until full aileron
control established.
4. Ease stick forward and ease flaps to neutral. Ship lifts off with
no further elevator input.
5. Hold ship at 5-10 feet until tug lifts off and rises above glider.
6. Glider follows just under tug slip-stream. ( If there is a cross
wind hold the ship on ground longer until just before tug lifts off).

The above gives excellent directional control on the ground with no
tendency to drop a wing or drift off-line. Ropes are standard 55
metres length.

In the air (low tow position) directional stability is excellent but
one needs to read changes to the tug's angle of bank quickly. Only
had one (short-term) scare when, in my first competition, the tug went
into a 45 degree RH bank into a thermal at 600'. Took a few
milliseconds to regain my equilibrium!!

Only had one other experience of concern when an experienced tuggie
persuaded me to undertake an outlanding retrieve (from a remote
airfield) using a 35 meter rope - an experience I didn't enjoy and
wouldn't recommend.

Overall, aerotowing with the belly hook hasn't presented any
difficulties worth worrying about and well-intentioned (doom and
gloom) predictions by instructors and winch drivers fortunately have
proved groundless.

Geoff Vincent
Mangalore Gliding Club
Australia

VH-GAX


On 23 Jul 2003 05:32:18 -0700, (Hank Nixon)
wrote:

(Harry) wrote in message >...
>> would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments welcome!
>>
>> regards
>> Harry
>
>Reply:
>This depends on the experienceyou have at this time and how your
>training was done.
>The '24 is a very honest glider with excellent stabilty.
>Early versions without winglets do exhibit some wing tip drop at stall
>if not well coordinated. That said, there is reliable warning. This is
>helped a lot by the factory added winglets and even more by
>aftermarket winglets in use in some countries.
>Speed control is important in landing but not remarkably so.
>The '24 was the first of the new generation of gliders with enhanced
>safety as an important part of the design. Many manufacturers are just
>now starting to catch up.
>These include progressive failure in the cockpit area, Upper safety
>beam in the cockpit, seat pan design, powerful hydraulic brake,
>landing gear designed to fail progresively absorbing energy, and other
>detail features.
>Towing is honest with CG hook. Most in Europe will have the forward
>nose hook installed. If flying with 30M ropes, I would suggest nose
>hook for added safety.
>If you were trained in modern glass, get some spin training and a few
>hours in LS4 or similar and go for it.
>I owned a '24 for 13 years and really enjoyed it.
>Good luck UH

[Mike Borgelt]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:05:30 +1000, Geoff Vincent
> wrote:

>FWIW,
>
>My experience airotowing using a belly hook has been limited to my PIK
>20B, fitted with Mazak winglets, using the Aussie low-tow technique.
>Take-off procedure is stock standard:
>1. Select full negative flap (-8 deg)
>2. Select full forward trim
>3. Hold the ship on the ground with back stick until full aileron
>control established.
>4. Ease stick forward and ease flaps to neutral. Ship lifts off with
>no further elevator input.
>5. Hold ship at 5-10 feet until tug lifts off and rises above glider.
>6. Glider follows just under tug slip-stream. ( If there is a cross
>wind hold the ship on ground longer until just before tug lifts off).
>
>The above gives excellent directional control on the ground with no
>tendency to drop a wing or drift off-line. Ropes are standard 55
>metres length.
>
>In the air (low tow position) directional stability is excellent but
>one needs to read changes to the tug's angle of bank quickly. Only
>had one (short-term) scare when, in my first competition, the tug went
>into a 45 degree RH bank into a thermal at 600'. Took a few
>milliseconds to regain my equilibrium!!
>
>Only had one other experience of concern when an experienced tuggie
>persuaded me to undertake an outlanding retrieve (from a remote
>airfield) using a 35 meter rope - an experience I didn't enjoy and
>wouldn't recommend.
>
>Overall, aerotowing with the belly hook hasn't presented any
>difficulties worth worrying about and well-intentioned (doom and
>gloom) predictions by instructors and winch drivers fortunately have
>proved groundless.
>
>Geoff Vincent
>Mangalore Gliding Club
>Australia
>
>VH-GAX


Right on Geoff, I hate short ropes. Most of the problems with belly
hooks and aerotow go away if you use a decent length of rope. 55
meters is a little too short though. About 240 feet is about right.
One of the nearby clubs started doing this and after some time, one
day one of the old shorter ropes came out and was used. After a couple
of tows the tugpilot went back to the hangar to get the long rope. He
could tell how much easier the glider pilots found the long rope.

Mike Borgelt

[Chris Reed]

I have experience of two different kinds aerotowing from a CG hook:

1. Launching an LS4 (tailskid) from an unmade (dirt, gravel, rocks) runway.
The problem here was directional control, with the glider snaking around
until there was enough speed for the rudder to counter the crosswind. Not a
real problem but hard work for 2 or 3 seconds. Hand on release in case the
direction of tug and glider get too far apart.

2. Launching my Open Cirrus (tailwheel) from a paved runway. Absolutely no
directional control problems at all. By the time the tailwheel is lifting,
the rudder is working. Just be aware of the possibility of swinging once the
tail comes up - whether there's any swing will probably vary between glider
types, but I've never noticed anything with the Cirrus.

There is, for all CG hook aerotows, the danger that if the glider gets high
it will begin to winch launch itself. I'm told this will pull the tug tail
up and cause more excitement than anyone wants (or worse than excitement if
low down). Neither the LS4 nor the Cirrus showed any signs of doing so, but
I kept a watch on the tug position ready to release if it got away from me.

[Geoff Vincent]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:02:00 +0100, "Chris Reed"
> wrote:

>I have experience of two different kinds aerotowing from a CG hook:
>
>1. Launching an LS4 (tailskid) from an unmade (dirt, gravel, rocks) runway.
>The problem here was directional control, with the glider snaking around
>until there was enough speed for the rudder to counter the crosswind. Not a
>real problem but hard work for 2 or 3 seconds. Hand on release in case the
>direction of tug and glider get too far apart.
>
>2. Launching my Open Cirrus (tailwheel) from a paved runway. Absolutely no
>directional control problems at all. By the time the tailwheel is lifting,
>the rudder is working. Just be aware of the possibility of swinging once the
>tail comes up - whether there's any swing will probably vary between glider
>types, but I've never noticed anything with the Cirrus.
>
>There is, for all CG hook aerotows, the danger that if the glider gets high
>it will begin to winch launch itself. I'm told this will pull the tug tail
>up and cause more excitement than anyone wants (or worse than excitement if
>low down). Neither the LS4 nor the Cirrus showed any signs of doing so, but
>I kept a watch on the tug position ready to release if it got away from me.

Sounds like excellent justification to fly low tow.

Geoff Vincent
Australia
>
>
>

[Michael]

"Chris Reed" > wrote
> I have experience of two different kinds aerotowing from a CG hook:
>
> 1. Launching an LS4 (tailskid) from an unmade (dirt, gravel, rocks) runway.
> The problem here was directional control, with the glider snaking around
> until there was enough speed for the rudder to counter the crosswind. Not a
> real problem but hard work for 2 or 3 seconds. Hand on release in case the
> direction of tug and glider get too far apart.

My experience with a cg-hook HP-11T (fixed tailwheel, no swiveling or
steering)mirrors yours, but with the added problem of a wing wanting
to drop and requiring prompt rudder input. I've launched from rough
grass and pavement. Had to release once for the resons you state.

Once in the air, no big deal.

Michael

[Jasper Grannetia]

Low tows are cool! :-)

Like many clubs in Europe mine has been to the Czech Republic a couple of
times for a few weeks. I remember the first time we went there loads of
people among us had to qualify for towing (as we usually do
winch-launching).
The Dutch towing exam includes a low-tow. The Czech exam apparently did not,
because the towpilots had to be briefed on this, it was new to them.

All but one of the Czech towpilots said "yeah okay!", but one objected. He
thought the whole thing was crazy and if the others were going along in the
whole low-towing thing that was okay, but wasn't. He left after that, but he
can't have been far away when the first checkrides were done, because after
a fashion he came back and was more than happy to join in. :-) :-) :-)

Jasper
The Hague
The Netherlands


"Sleigh" > wrote in message
...
> At 13:54 24 July 2003, Geoff Vincent wrote:
> >On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:02:00 +0100, 'Chris Reed'
> > wrote:
> >
> >>I have experience of two different kinds aerotowing
> >>from a CG hook:
> >>
> >>1. Launching an LS4 (tailskid) from an unmade (dirt,
> >>gravel, rocks) runway.
> >>The problem here was directional control, with the
> >>glider snaking around
> >>until there was enough speed for the rudder to counter
> >>the crosswind. Not a
> >>real problem but hard work for 2 or 3 seconds. Hand
> >>on release in case the
> >>direction of tug and glider get too far apart.
> >>
> >>2. Launching my Open Cirrus (tailwheel) from a paved
> >>runway. Absolutely no
> >>directional control problems at all. By the time the
> >>tailwheel is lifting,
> >>the rudder is working. Just be aware of the possibility
> >>of swinging once the
> >>tail comes up - whether there's any swing will probably
> >>vary between glider
> >>types, but I've never noticed anything with the Cirrus.
> >>
> >>There is, for all CG hook aerotows, the danger that
> >>if the glider gets high
> >>it will begin to winch launch itself. I'm told this
> >>will pull the tug tail
> >>up and cause more excitement than anyone wants (or
> >>worse than excitement if
> >>low down). Neither the LS4 nor the Cirrus showed any
> >>signs of doing so, but
> >>I kept a watch on the tug position ready to release
> >>if it got away from me.
> >
> >Sounds like excellent justification to fly low tow.
> >
> >
> >Geoff Vincent
> >Australia
> >>
> >>
> >>Geoff
>
> You know that suggestion is, far too sensible and practical
> ,for this group>
>
>
> Low tow fan..England
>
> >
>
>
>

[Mike Borgelt]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:52:05 -0400, Todd Pattist
> wrote:

>Sleigh > wrote:
>
>>>Sounds like excellent justification to fly low tow.
>>
>>You know that suggestion is, far too sensible and practical
>>for this group>
>>Low tow fan..England
>
>I'm always fascinated by this low-tow high-tow discussion.
>Do you mind if I ask what your climb rate is on tow? I tow
>in my Ventus above the wake (unless on XC tow retrieve), but
>the L-19 tug's wheels are well above the horizon, and I'm
>significantly lower than the typical instructor when I ask
>where he tows while I'm taking a flight review. I tow in my
>preferred location in part for visibility over the compass
>mounted on my panel shield, and in part because it just
>"feels" right, but I really find it odd that anyone would
>intentionally tow below the wake of an L-19 at near
>sea-level during a climb to release. The rope would be over
>me in a heartbeat if it broke, and there's a constant strong
>tendency for the steep upwardly angled rope to pull up the
>glider's nose that would quickly lead to kiting over the
>towplane if there is a momentary inattention.
>Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
>(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

I'm with you Todd. The rope can kill you, let alone bits falling off
the towplane and with a high powered tug and shortish rope you don't
have nearly as good a horizon reference as you are looking upwards.

Low tow fans note: You cannot fly low tow until the towplane is some
subtantial distance from the ground. So the problem becomes where do
you transition- either you fly through the towplane wake very close to
the ground or do it at 200 -300 feet in which case why bother? Both
introduce unnecessary hazards which are entirely avoided by flying
stabilised high tow(just above the wake).

Nearly all these problems go away if you use a longer rope. About 240
feet. The towplane wake has much less energy, the rocks don't ding
your glider, the "in station" window is much bigger and if you try it
you will find it is all a much more pleasant and relaxed experience.
You even have time in the glider for decent lookout and may prevent a
mid air collision, one of the main hazards for tow pilots in Australia
which leads them to die at 10 times the hourly rate of cropdusters.
Sailplanes are relatively safe compared to this. The pilots only die
at about the same rate as cropdusters per hour. If you think there is
something wrong with this you may just be getting a clue that a
problem exists.

Mike Borgelt

[Hank Nixon]

Geoff Vincent > wrote in message >...
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:02:00 +0100, "Chris Reed"
> > wrote:
>
> >I have experience of two different kinds aerotowing from a CG hook:
> >
> >1. Launching an LS4 (tailskid) from an unmade (dirt, gravel, rocks) runway.
> >The problem here was directional control, with the glider snaking around
> >until there was enough speed for the rudder to counter the crosswind. Not a
> >real problem but hard work for 2 or 3 seconds. Hand on release in case the
> >direction of tug and glider get too far apart.
> >
> >2. Launching my Open Cirrus (tailwheel) from a paved runway. Absolutely no
> >directional control problems at all. By the time the tailwheel is lifting,
> >the rudder is working. Just be aware of the possibility of swinging once the
> >tail comes up - whether there's any swing will probably vary between glider
> >types, but I've never noticed anything with the Cirrus.
> >
> >There is, for all CG hook aerotows, the danger that if the glider gets high
> >it will begin to winch launch itself. I'm told this will pull the tug tail
> >up and cause more excitement than anyone wants (or worse than excitement if
> >low down). Neither the LS4 nor the Cirrus showed any signs of doing so, but
> >I kept a watch on the tug position ready to release if it got away from me.
>
> Sounds like excellent justification to fly low tow.
>
> Geoff Vincent
> Australia
> >
> >
> >
Geoff
Completely agree.
Low tow easier to fly, easier to teach,never have broken a rope in
over 30,000 tows at our operation, and---------
NOBODY EVER DOVE A TOWPILOT INTO THE GROUND IN LOW TOW!
9500 low tows and counting
UH

[Patrick Hoeve]

"Jasper Grannetia" > schreef in bericht
...
> Low tows are cool! :-)
>
> Like many clubs in Europe mine has been to the Czech Republic a couple of
> times for a few weeks. I remember the first time we went there loads of
> people among us had to qualify for towing (as we usually do
> winch-launching).
> The Dutch towing exam includes a low-tow. The Czech exam apparently did
not,
> because the towpilots had to be briefed on this, it was new to them.
>
> All but one of the Czech towpilots said "yeah okay!", but one objected. He
> thought the whole thing was crazy and if the others were going along in
the
> whole low-towing thing that was okay, but wasn't. He left after that, but
he
> can't have been far away when the first checkrides were done, because
after
> a fashion he came back and was more than happy to join in. :-) :-) :-)
>
> Jasper
> The Hague
> The Netherlands


Hoi Jasper,

Ehmmm...the Low-tow in this discusion is something else as the low-tow you
mean. Your low-tow is an emergency procedure where the tow plane brings the
glider back in case of a malfuction of the release. The low-tow in this
thread is towing in a low postion behind the tow plane (e.g below the wake
of the prop). Low-tows are done in Aussie, like you should know!
cu in Venlo at the juniors!

greetz

Patrick

[tango4]

I stand corrected!

[Tom Serkowski]

The key issue here is that 90% of the danger to the towpilot from a
ballooning sailplane occurs before one has enough altitude to get into
low tow. Granted, there may be a 'mindset' of the glider pilot to
stay low, so there may be a little less incentive to get high on the
tow while both are still less than 50' AGL or so.

Tom

Sleigh > wrote in message >...
> At 13:54 24 July 2003, Geoff Vincent wrote:
> >On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:02:00 +0100, 'Chris Reed'

> >Sounds like excellent justification to fly low tow.
> >
> >
> >Geoff Vincent
> >Australia
> >>
> >>
> >>Geoff
>
> You know that suggestion is, far too sensible and practical
> ,for this group>
>
>
> Low tow fan..England
>
> >

[dhofstee]

Mike Borgelt wrote:
> Nearly all these problems go away if you use a longer rope. About 240
> feet. The towplane wake has much less energy, the rocks don't ding
There are definately different standards about the tow ropes...
Thickness too.

I've flown with ropes which range from 20 meters(!) to 50 meters. Never
longer. I guess when the rope is 75 meters, flying below wake becomes an
option. When it is 20, there is no choice because your are behind. Note
that towing in Netherlands is considered a waste of money so we don't do
it very often. Bye,

David
NL

[Sleigh]

Tom..
Why would you choose to transfer from normal to low
tow...just say below propwash from the start...always
done it ..always taught it..NEVER had a problem..why
endanger your mate in the tow plane?


At 07:54 25 July 2003, Tom Serkowski wrote:
>The key issue here is that 90% of the danger to the
>towpilot from a
>ballooning sailplane occurs before one has enough altitude
>to get into
>low tow. Granted, there may be a 'mindset' of the
>glider pilot to
>stay low, so there may be a little less incentive to
>get high on the
>tow while both are still less than 50' AGL or so.
>
>Tom
>
>Sleigh wrote in message news:...
>> At 13:54 24 July 2003, Geoff Vincent wrote:
>> >On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:02:00 +0100, 'Chris Reed'
>
>> >Sounds like excellent justification to fly low tow.
>> >
>> >
>> >Geoff Vincent
>> >Australia
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Geoff
>>
>> You know that suggestion is, far too sensible and
>>practical
>> ,for this group>
>>
>>
>> Low tow fan..England
>>
>> >
>

[Michael]

Mike Borgelt > wrote
> Low tow fans note: You cannot fly low tow until the towplane is some
> subtantial distance from the ground.

Why not? Simply stay in ground effect and let the tow plane climb out first.

Michael

[Eric Greenwell]

In article >, crwdog69
@hotmail.com says...
> Mike Borgelt > wrote
> > Low tow fans note: You cannot fly low tow until the towplane is some
> > subtantial distance from the ground.
>
> Why not? Simply stay in ground effect and let the tow plane climb out first.

In our area, we often have enough wind shear in the first 200 feet
that this technique will lead to the tow plane slowing down rapidly
(compared to the glider and the ground) in the faster moving air above
the low glider. In those conditions, it is very important for the
glider to climb off the runway level with the towplane. A few hundred
feet up, a low tow can be safely established
--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

[Eric Greenwell]

In article >,
says...
> Thankfully America is not the only country on this planet. In Germany (
> another country in the world, in a place called Europe ) where these
> aircraft are manufactured, winch launching is common. A hook placed at the
> centre CG position is perfectly acceptable for both aerotow and winch
> launching wheras a nose hook is only good ( effectively ) for aerotow.

Hasn't the German LBA required a forward hook for aerotowing for many
years now? That suggests a CG hook is not "perfectly acceptable" for
aerotowing to everyone in Europe.

--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

[Eric Greenwell]

In article >,
says...
> Tom..
> Why would you choose to transfer from normal to low
> tow...just say below propwash from the start...always
> done it ..always taught it..NEVER had a problem..why
> endanger your mate in the tow plane?

We don't do it, we don't teach it, and we have had problems!

I can't speak for Tom, but here's why we don't do what you suggest in
our area: we often have enough wind shear in the first 200 feet
that this technique will lead to the tow plane slowing down rapidly
(compared to the glider and the ground) in the faster moving air above
the low glider. It can be particularly bad in the winter, with calm
winds on the ground, and 20 knots only 200' agl. In those conditions,
it is very important for the glider to climb off the runway level with
the towplane. A few hundred feet up, a low tow can be safely
established.

--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

[Mike Borgelt]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:59:16 -0700, Eric Greenwell
> wrote:

>In article >, crwdog69
says...
>> Mike Borgelt > wrote
>> > Low tow fans note: You cannot fly low tow until the towplane is some
>> > subtantial distance from the ground.
>>
>> Why not? Simply stay in ground effect and let the tow plane climb out first.


So where do you think you are relative to the wake when you are in
ground effect????

You are either in it(undesirable) or just above. Either way you end up
flying in the turbulent wake close to the ground. To fly in low tow
the towplane has to be high enough for you to be under the wake
without hitting the ground.

Mike Borgelt

[Robert Danewid]

Interesting tread this one.

First question was:

Harry wrote:
> would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments welcome!
>
> regards
> Harry

Now we have been through nose hooks vs CG hooks, winching or not and
nearly started a conflict between the US, Canada or Nort America on one
side and Europe on the other side.

First question, as far as I have found out, has still not been answered.
So I give it a try....

YES, the ASW24 is a good ship for recently licensed gliders. In Sweden
we use ASW24s (with CG hook) as first single seater (during traininng, i
e before you have your license, if you are trained in plastic two
seaters). LS4 and Discus are also approved as first single seater type.

The 24 has nice handling, a good, roomy and crashworthy cocpit (provided
you are not too long - I am 187 cm and can just fit in comfortably).

Robert