Use of drag chutes

[JS]

The accidents in Namibia which totaled gliders and claimed a life deserve more respect than that offered by our friend "Fred Drift".
Hey, it's fun to land with a drag chute. I regret never trying ASW17B 15 meter drag chute landings. At 20m it was huge fun.
Jim

[WB]

Have done a bunch of landings with the tail chute in my 301 Libelle. Deploy on high downwind abeam intended touchdown point. Requires quite the nose down attitude to maintain airspeed. Modulate glide path with divebrakes. Be ready to jettison if coming up short. Yep, it's fun.

[Ventus_a]

I used to fly an early model Janus back in the late 80s. I used the chute a lot and it was great fun and quite an effective aid when landing. I even thermaled for a short while with a Std Cirrus one day when mucking about before joining high for downwind lol

Really loved that glider and missed it when it went to the Wellington Gliding Club

:-) Colin

[[email protected]]

I tried to use the tail chute twice in my H-301 Libelle. First time was during an off field landing, I pulled the chute and stuffed the nose down...........next thing I knew I was scooting through the weeds doing 80. The chute hadn't deployed! Next time I gave it a try was a landing at Winnemucca, Nv. I popped the chute on down-wind and soon found I was going to be way short, so I pulled the jettison handle..............you guessed it, it didn't jettison! I made the runway, but was a half mile from my desired stopping point. The chute worked fine on the ground, before and after both incidents. My conclusion, unreliable and not necessary in a ship that had landing flaps and dive brakes.
FWIW,
JJ

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 14:46 07 February 2016, wrote:
>I tried to use the tail chute twice in my H-301 Libelle. First time
was
>dur=
>ing an off field landing, I pulled the chute and stuffed the nose
>down.....=
>......next thing I knew I was scooting through the weeds doing 80.
The
>chute=
> hadn't deployed! Next time I gave it a try was a landing at
Winnemucca,
>N=
>v. I popped the chute on down-wind and soon found I was going
to be way
>sho=
>rt, so I pulled the jettison handle..............you guessed it, it
didn't
>=
>jettison! I made the runway, but was a half mile from my desired
stopping
>p=
>oint. The chute worked fine on the ground, before and after both
>incidents.=
> My conclusion, unreliable and not necessary in a ship that had
landing
>fla=
>ps and dive brakes.
>FWIW,
>JJ

I had a Slingsby Kestrel which had flaps, 2 lots and airbrakes. The
best that could be said about the airbrakes is they made a nice
noise. It also had a tail parachute which was very effective, if it
deployed. The tail parachute was in a shaped box on the bottom of
the rudder. The technique was to select the deployment and then
waggle the rudder from side to side to encourage it to deploy. This
worked most of the time. I used to start an approach where I
intended to use the parachute from 600ft. If it did not deploy I had
enough height to do a 360 deg turn on finals to loose the height.

[JS]

The ASW17B (17045) has a belly chute. One day Mark Grubb and I took turns landing it with the chute. We intentionally packed it with less care each time, and it always deployed. This was a fun test prior to Mark's rebuild of the ASW12.
The technique was pull at 600'AGL on short final. Woomph! Nose down, pull the double-surface airbrakes out fully. Laughter! Gently ease back on the stick just before your feet hit the runway. Normal touchdown. As it was a paved runway, we jettisoned the chute shortly after touchdown to reduce wear on the cover attached to the crown of the chute. The loss of drag is quite apparent.
Unfortunately we lost the piece of the belly (swivel clip failure) off the end of the runway before trying the drag chute at 15m span.
The 17B has a lot of handles at the bottom of the panel. Best not to adjust the pedals without looking at the handle.
Jim

[SF]

My Open Cirrus had a drogue chute in the tail. I used it once just to practice using it, and then it saved me from a broken glider on a very very short field landing when I had to use it for real. Don't try to deploy one unless you are over your landing spot, it's damn near a straight down ride once you deploy it. You really have to push the nose down too maintain airspeed with it deployed, but the landing isn't difficult to do, its just an unusual attitude.

SF

[Ventus_a]

I tried to use the tail chute twice in my H-301 Libelle. First time was during an off field landing, I pulled the chute and stuffed the nose down...........next thing I knew I was scooting through the weeds doing 80. The chute hadn't deployed! Next time I gave it a try was a landing at Winnemucca, Nv. I popped the chute on down-wind and soon found I was going to be way short, so I pulled the jettison handle..............you guessed it, it didn't jettison! I made the runway, but was a half mile from my desired stopping point. The chute worked fine on the ground, before and after both incidents. My conclusion, unreliable and not necessary in a ship that had landing flaps and dive brakes.
FWIW,
JJ

I used the Janus chute on most landings to be really familiar with it's characteristics/quirks before I ever got to use it in an outlanding situation.

I only ever suffered 2 failures and both were at my home field. Once I ran the lever forward through the detent and inadvertently jettisoned it lol, and the second time was deploying it while dumping water and it not surprisingly it didn't inflate properly. Both good lessons learnt cheaply

:-) Colin

[[email protected]]

I was looking at buying a nimbus 2 which had a drogue chute and the owner told a great story: Seems that when the ship was new he first flew it in Germany and the locals warned him about how effective the chute was and how and when to deploy and release it. Well he had gone on a xc and was returning late to the field with all the locals down and watching his pattern and landing. As he was turning base to final and high he deployed the chute. "It was amazing how fast I was coming down finishing the turn to final I realized I wouldn't make the field so pulled the lever back again to release the chute, but it wouldn't move! I realized that I had a candy bar in the pocket behind the handle and started smashing it as hard as I could to give room to pull the release handle back. Well when I looked up I was going to hit the fence on the approach end of the runway, I flared hard and just cleared the fence and rolled up, drogue still attached, in front of the hangar with all of the Germans standing out front clapping. Claiming that was the best use of the drogue chute they had ever seen!"

He said he never told them the true story or the fact he had to clean out his draws afterwards :)

[[email protected]]

When I had a Kestrel 19 back in the eighties I used the tail chute for every outlanding with complete reliability - deploy on curved base/final leg and point the nose where you want to land - BUT:

I was sole owner and removed the chute in its box after every flight and took it home, repacked it, and kept it in the airing cupboard to make sure it was dry.

The Kestrel has a little spring loaded plunger that pushes the chute box down and free and I always made sure it was lubricated and that box would drop away freely when I re-fitted it during rigging.

The Kestrel had a proper little Otfur-like release for the chute cables so I was confident that it would release if necessary - but I never had to release it.

[AS]

On Sunday, February 7, 2016 at 9:46:34 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> I tried to use the tail chute twice in my H-301 Libelle. First time was during an off field landing, I pulled the chute and stuffed the nose down...........next thing I knew I was scooting through the weeds doing 80. The chute hadn't deployed! Next time I gave it a try was a landing at Winnemucca, Nv. I popped the chute on down-wind and soon found I was going to be way short, so I pulled the jettison handle..............you guessed it, it didn't jettison! I made the runway, but was a half mile from my desired stopping point. The chute worked fine on the ground, before and after both incidents. My conclusion, unreliable and not necessary in a ship that had landing flaps and dive brakes.
> FWIW,
> JJ

JJ - I object to your comment 'unreliable and not necessary'! Tail-chutes become unreliable if they are being neglected, i.e. hardly used, never allowed to dry/air out and if the operating mechanisms are not maintained! I flew an Open Cirrus and a H101 Salto with chutes and never had any malfunctions of any kind. I wished my H301 had one but the first owner didn't order it from the factory.
Uli
AS

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 11:03:32 PM UTC-5, WB wrote:
> Have done a bunch of landings with the tail chute in my 301 Libelle. Deploy on high downwind abeam intended touchdown point. Requires quite the nose down attitude to maintain airspeed. Modulate glide path with divebrakes. Be ready to jettison if coming up short. Yep, it's fun.

I would recommend against this approach. If you are coming up short you would need to successfully release the drag chute... Perhaps not the best thing in a high stress situation. I only deploy on final and when I am certain to make the runway.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, February 7, 2016 at 9:46:34 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> I tried to use the tail chute twice in my H-301 Libelle. First time was during an off field landing, I pulled the chute and stuffed the nose down...........next thing I knew I was scooting through the weeds doing 80. The chute hadn't deployed! Next time I gave it a try was a landing at Winnemucca, Nv. I popped the chute on down-wind and soon found I was going to be way short, so I pulled the jettison handle..............you guessed it, it didn't jettison! I made the runway, but was a half mile from my desired stopping point. The chute worked fine on the ground, before and after both incidents. My conclusion, unreliable and not necessary in a ship that had landing flaps and dive brakes.
> FWIW,
> JJ

One can feel the chute deploying before it is fully effective and have several seconds to lower the nose as this is going on. Keep a few knots extra airspeed and you have no need to push the nose down prior to confirmation of deployment.

[[email protected]]

After Wil Schuemann bought an ASW 12 (no dive brakes), he set about determining why the drag chute didn't always deploy. He mounted a high-speed film camera and aimed it at the rudder. IIRC, if the rear of the lower rudder housing in which the chute was stored dropped down first, it fell away from the rudder and the chute deployed normally. Sometimes the front of the housing dropped slightly first, jamming the whole assembly. Or maybe it was vice versa. :) Anyway, he made some modifications that helped insure it dropped the same way every time. Then he added a second drag chute that deployed from the belly. Watching him land using the two chutes was pretty inspiring.

Chip Bearden

[WB]

'Chutes have a lot of failure modes and none of them are easier to handle closer to the ground.

We agree that one should only deploy the chute when certain of making the field. That's just common sense. Oldtimers with much experience taught me to deploy the 'chute while still high enough to have options in case it failed in some way. Deploying the 'chute on short final, when one has relatively few options, seems less sensible. Better to deploy it high when one has the altitude to adjust the pattern or sort out problems. Actually, jettisoning the 'chute is for when one encounters unexpected severe sink or headwind (or one has done a really poor job of planning the pattern) or when the chute only partially opens (might suddenly decide to fully inflate at just the wrong moment).

I've made somewhere upwards of 30 off-airfield landings in my 301, at least 20 of them with the tail 'chute. I have never had to jettison it.

The truth is, I never really needed the 'chute in any of those landings. The divebrakes, coupled with judicious use of slipping are perfectly adequate to bring a Libelle into a short field.

[WB]

Speaking of 'chute failures, I have always been concerned about having an uncommanded dragchute deployment during tow. Very worrisome for me and the tug pilot.

I have had the 'chute deploy uncommanded while thermalling in a gaggle at a contest. Took me a few seconds to decide what to do about the situation. Should I jettison the 'chute, keep my altitude, and fly the task? Should I head for the airfield and jettison the 'chute closer to the field? Should I just land out with the 'chute attached and not lose the expensive chute and shoe? All the while, I am still going around the thermal, well below everyone else and sinking. Some joker gets on the radio and says "Hey, WB. Call the CD and ask what your handicap is with the 'chute out". Eventually, I decided I had enough altitude to tow the 'chute home and did that. Landed, removed the 'chute, duct taped the shoe, and took a relight to get back in the race.

[WB]

On Sunday, February 7, 2016 at 8:46:34 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> I tried to use the tail chute twice in my H-301 Libelle. First time was during an off field landing, I pulled the chute and stuffed the nose down...........next thing I knew I was scooting through the weeds doing 80. The chute hadn't deployed! Next time I gave it a try was a landing at Winnemucca, Nv. I popped the chute on down-wind and soon found I was going to be way short, so I pulled the jettison handle..............you guessed it, it didn't jettison! I made the runway, but was a half mile from my desired stopping point. The chute worked fine on the ground, before and after both incidents. My conclusion, unreliable and not necessary in a ship that had landing flaps and dive brakes.
> FWIW,
> JJ

Hi JJ,

You gave me the tailchute out of your Libelle. I subsequently passed it on to Bert Compton.

WB
H301 #19

[WB]

On Monday, February 8, 2016 at 11:58:28 AM UTC-6, AS wrote:
> On Sunday, February 7, 2016 at 9:46:34 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > I tried to use the tail chute twice in my H-301 Libelle. First time was during an off field landing, I pulled the chute and stuffed the nose down...........next thing I knew I was scooting through the weeds doing 80. The chute hadn't deployed! Next time I gave it a try was a landing at Winnemucca, Nv. I popped the chute on down-wind and soon found I was going to be way short, so I pulled the jettison handle..............you guessed it, it didn't jettison! I made the runway, but was a half mile from my desired stopping point. The chute worked fine on the ground, before and after both incidents. My conclusion, unreliable and not necessary in a ship that had landing flaps and dive brakes.
> > FWIW,
> > JJ
>
> JJ - I object to your comment 'unreliable and not necessary'! Tail-chutes become unreliable if they are being neglected, i.e. hardly used, never allowed to dry/air out and if the operating mechanisms are not maintained! I flew an Open Cirrus and a H101 Salto with chutes and never had any malfunctions of any kind. I wished my H301 had one but the first owner didn't order it from the factory.
> Uli
> AS

Hi Uli,

I have found my tailchute to be very reliable. Only two failures in many deployment, both due to my own negligence. I had an uncommanded in-flight deployment due to my inadvertently pulling on the lanyard when removing the instrument panel and forgetting to recheck the security of the shoe during the pre-flight inspection. Luckily, it deployed after I got off tow and was at altitude. Could have been bad on tow. The other was a failure of the 'chute to inflate completely. I had packed it badly and it just came out in a ball and stayed that way. Kept the pattern close in and carried a little extra speed into the flair in case the darned thing decided to open fully.

[WB]

On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 9:29:20 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:
> The accidents in Namibia which totaled gliders and claimed a life deserve more respect than that offered by our friend "Fred Drift".
> Hey, it's fun to land with a drag chute. I regret never trying ASW17B 15 meter drag chute landings. At 20m it was huge fun.
> Jim

One vintage glider, Polish, I think, had a dragchute that could be modulated like divebrakes. Reeling it in partially closed the chute while reeling it out allowed it to open more. Reasonably clever solution to a non-problem.