Alternate turbine fuel

[Robert Bates]

Yeah, I know I'm going to get flamed

I have read a lot recently about people burning everything from bio-diesel
and straight french fry grease to used ATF in ground based diesel engines
but what about flying turbines? I am quite sure that they would burn either
at ground level but will these fuels gel at the lower flight levels and
would the FAA have a problem with fuel type in an experimental aircraft?

[Morgans]

"Robert Bates" > wrote in message
news:EJwuc.18339$IB.1786@attbi_s04...
> Yeah, I know I'm going to get flamed
>
> I have read a lot recently about people burning everything from bio-diesel
> and straight french fry grease to used ATF in ground based diesel engines
> but what about flying turbines? I am quite sure that they would burn
either
> at ground level but will these fuels gel at the lower flight levels and
> would the FAA have a problem with fuel type in an experimental aircraft?
>
>
Gel would not be the worry, but repeatable, consistent runs. What if there
is a chunk of a french fry that got by the filter?

The price of fuel is not the most important factor in owning and running an
airplane. No sane person would risk the plane or his neck, just for burning
a bunch of waste to save money
--
Jim in NC.


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[Regnirps]

"Robert Bates" > wrote in message

> Yeah, I know I'm going to get flamed

> I have read a lot recently about people burning everything from bio-diesel
> and straight french fry grease to used ATF in ground based diesel engines
> but what about flying turbines? I am quite sure that they would burn either
> at ground level but will these fuels gel at the lower flight levels and
> would the FAA have a problem with fuel type in an experimental aircraft?

Deltahawk discusses fuels for their piston aviation diesel. JP5 I think with
some lubricant I suspect to prevent cylinder washout. They mention regular
diesel with altitude/temperature restrictions due to gelling.

-- Charlie Springer

[Bill Daniels]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Robert Bates" > wrote in message
> news:EJwuc.18339$IB.1786@attbi_s04...
> > Yeah, I know I'm going to get flamed
> >
> > I have read a lot recently about people burning everything from
bio-diesel
> > and straight french fry grease to used ATF in ground based diesel
engines
> > but what about flying turbines? I am quite sure that they would burn
> either
> > at ground level but will these fuels gel at the lower flight levels and
> > would the FAA have a problem with fuel type in an experimental aircraft?
> >
> >
> Gel would not be the worry, but repeatable, consistent runs. What if
there
> is a chunk of a french fry that got by the filter?
>
> The price of fuel is not the most important factor in owning and running
an
> airplane. No sane person would risk the plane or his neck, just for
burning
> a bunch of waste to save money
> --
> Jim in NC.

Biodiesel is a refined product and is in every way superior to petroleum
based diesel fuel.

Fuel prices are the single highest cost of OPERATING and aircraft but,
perhaps not the highest for merely OWNING one. Try figuring out how much it
costs in fuel to run an engine to TBO.

Bill Daniels

[Morgans]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote

> Biodiesel is a refined product and is in every way superior to petroleum
> based diesel fuel.
>
> Fuel prices are the single highest cost of OPERATING and aircraft but,
> perhaps not the highest for merely OWNING one. Try figuring out how much
it
> costs in fuel to run an engine to TBO.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
What caught my eye, was the french fry grease.
--
Jim in NC


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[B2431]

>"Bill Daniels" > wrote
>
>> Biodiesel is a refined product and is in every way superior to petroleum
>> based diesel fuel.
>>
>> Fuel prices are the single highest cost of OPERATING and aircraft but,
>> perhaps not the highest for merely OWNING one. Try figuring out how much
>it
>> costs in fuel to run an engine to TBO.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>>
>What caught my eye, was the french fry grease.
>--
>Jim in NC

Think vegetable oil, soy, french fry oil etc. Filter it to get the junk out.
Add lye....

Apparently you get more MPG for biodiesel then petrodiesel, cleaner burning
too. The recipies and cheerleaders are available on the WWW.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Del Rawlins]

In > B2431 wrote:

> Think vegetable oil, soy, french fry oil etc. Filter it to get the
> junk out. Add lye....
>
> Apparently you get more MPG for biodiesel then petrodiesel, cleaner
> burning too. The recipies and cheerleaders are available on the WWW.

How does biodiesel do as far as lubricity for the fuel system components
compared to petrodiesel?

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[Brian Whatcott]

On 4 Jun 2004 02:28:16 GMT, Del Rawlins
> wrote:

>In > B2431 wrote:
>
>> Think vegetable oil, soy, french fry oil etc. Filter it to get the
>> junk out. Add lye....
>>
>> Apparently you get more MPG for biodiesel then petrodiesel, cleaner
>> burning too. The recipies and cheerleaders are available on the WWW.
>
>How does biodiesel do as far as lubricity for the fuel system components
>compared to petrodiesel?
>
>----------------------------------------------------
>Del Rawlins-

Castor is a vegetable, isn't it?

Brian W

[D.W. Taylor]

Lubricity is higher, much easier on the injection pump
and other bits. WARNING! it will clean ALL the crud out
of our fuel system. And deposit it in your filter.

Most folks IU've met in person using bio-d have stalled out due
to plugged fuel filters within a week of converting, that being said
these were all old vehicles with 200K miles and more on them
running dino deisel first...

I fully expect used vegi oil to be 30 bucks a barrel by fall.....

Supply and demand don-cha know..

A couple fuel companies in my area actually sell the stuff ready to use.

Itss about 35 cents higher than regular deisel...

Dave


NOte: I am not qualified to have any opinions.....
so this is only as good as my memory...


Del Rawlins wrote:

> In > B2431 wrote:
>
>
>>Think vegetable oil, soy, french fry oil etc. Filter it to get the
>>junk out. Add lye....
>>
>>Apparently you get more MPG for biodiesel then petrodiesel, cleaner
>>burning too. The recipies and cheerleaders are available on the WWW.
>
>
> How does biodiesel do as far as lubricity for the fuel system components
> compared to petrodiesel?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins-
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[Barnyard BOb -]

>>> Think vegetable oil, soy, french fry oil etc. Filter it to get the
>>> junk out. Add lye....
>>>
>>> Apparently you get more MPG for biodiesel then petrodiesel, cleaner
>>> burning too. The recipies and cheerleaders are available on the WWW.
>>
>>How does biodiesel do as far as lubricity for the fuel system components
>>compared to petrodiesel?

>>Del Rawlins-
>
>Castor is a vegetable, isn't it?
>
>Brian W
===========================

Sure....
If you are thinking in terms of --
Animal, Vegetable or Mineral.

Howsome ever --
Since castor beans grow on shrubs....
perhaps, you'd like to think of it as a berry...
a very toxic/deadly one.

To further complicate things,
it's not a bean or berry.
It's a SPURGE.

spurge n.

Any of various plants of the genus Euphorbia, characteristically
having milky juice and small unisexual flowers that are surrounded
by a cuplike structure composed of fused bracts.


Further....
http://museum.gov.ns.ca/poison/castor.htm
http://www.vet.purdue.edu/depts/addl/toxic/plant11.htm


Barnyard BOb - catsup is a vegetable

[Bill Daniels]

"Del Rawlins" > wrote in message
...
> How does biodiesel do as far as lubricity for the fuel system components
> compared to petrodiesel?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins-

From what I read, it's better than petrodiesel by a wide margin.

Biodiesel looks like a win-win for everybody. The tree huggers love it
because it doesn't add any CO2 to the atmosphere. (Growing the plants from
which the feedstock is made pulls the CO2 out of the air that is released
when it is burned for a net zero CO2 release.) Engine lovers have a
potentially cheap fuel that has far better power and lubricity
characteristics than petrodiesel.

Since the fuel crops will not be eaten, it's possible that genetically
modified plants can increase the yield dramatically.

Farmers get a new crop and a stable market.

Bill Daniels

[[email protected]]

Bill Daniels > wrote:
: Biodiesel looks like a win-win for everybody.

Sure... seems great, and I'm all for it. Trouble is, the energy available
would supply just a few percent of all that's currently required. It's great when
your friendly, neighborhood tree-hugger raids all the local McDonalds' for their waste
grease. If you get more than a 10000:1 ratio, there isn't even close to enough for
everyone. (Rough estimate that a town of 100,000 people could supply enough waste
grease for 10 people.)

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Bill Daniels]

> wrote in message
...
> Bill Daniels > wrote:
> : Biodiesel looks like a win-win for everybody.
>
> Sure... seems great, and I'm all for it. Trouble is, the energy available
> would supply just a few percent of all that's currently required. It's
great when
> your friendly, neighborhood tree-hugger raids all the local McDonalds' for
their waste
> grease. If you get more than a 10000:1 ratio, there isn't even close to
enough for
> everyone. (Rough estimate that a town of 100,000 people could supply
enough waste
> grease for 10 people.)
>
> -Cory
>

Animal grease is a tiny part of the feedstock. It's a good deal for the
fast food restaurants since they have to pay to dispose of it now.

99% of the feedstock will be vegetable oils from crops specially grown for
fuel. Potentially, GM fuel crops will grow where no other crop will grow
using little water or fertilizer. From what I read, there is the potential
to produce more than half of the diesel fuel needs this way.

Bill Daniels

[Pete Schaefer]

Diversification of the energy economy is where it's at these days. A couple
percent from biodiesel, a couple more from methane, propane, yadda
yadda.....hey look, we cut our petroleum consumption by 10%! Every little
bit helps.

> wrote in message
...
> Sure... seems great, and I'm all for it. Trouble is, the energy available
> would supply just a few percent of all that's currently required. It's
great when

[Jay]

Just so nobody is confused, processed biodiesel (rapeseed methel
ester) is 35 cents higher than diesel, not waste cooking oils. That
gunk is free in many areas, FOB restaurant back door.

Regards

p.s. The conversion is a transesterfication(Sp?) process using
typically methanol and a strong base a catalyst(lye).

"D.W. Taylor" > wrote in message >...
> Lubricity is higher, much easier on the injection pump
> and other bits. WARNING! it will clean ALL the crud out
> of our fuel system. And deposit it in your filter.
>
> Most folks IU've met in person using bio-d have stalled out due
> to plugged fuel filters within a week of converting, that being said
> these were all old vehicles with 200K miles and more on them
> running dino deisel first...
>
> I fully expect used vegi oil to be 30 bucks a barrel by fall.....
>
> Supply and demand don-cha know..
>
> A couple fuel companies in my area actually sell the stuff ready to use.
>
> Itss about 35 cents higher than regular deisel...
>
> Dave
>
>
> NOte: I am not qualified to have any opinions.....
> so this is only as good as my memory...
>
>
> Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> > In > B2431 wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Think vegetable oil, soy, french fry oil etc. Filter it to get the
> >>junk out. Add lye....
> >>
> >>Apparently you get more MPG for biodiesel then petrodiesel, cleaner
> >>burning too. The recipies and cheerleaders are available on the WWW.
> >
> >
> > How does biodiesel do as far as lubricity for the fuel system components
> > compared to petrodiesel?
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > Del Rawlins-
> > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[Rich S.]

"Jay" > wrote in message
om...
> Just so nobody is confused, processed biodiesel (rapeseed methel
> ester) is 35 cents higher than diesel, not waste cooking oils. That
> gunk is free in many areas, FOB restaurant back door.

Dammit Jay, that's "FBO". :-)

Rich S.

[Regnirps]

"Jay" > wrote in message
om...
> Just so nobody is confused, processed biodiesel (rapeseed methel
> ester) is 35 cents higher than diesel, not waste cooking oils. That
> gunk is free in many areas, FOB restaurant back door.

In Olympia, Washington they are running some busses and gov trucks on processed
fast food waste and they are paying an extra 35 to 70 cents a gallon of MY
MONEY!

-- Charlie Springer

[Jay]

Everytime I take breath of slightly cleaner air, I'll thank you for
your 35-70 cent sacrifice. Or you can think of it another way, thats
money going back into the US economy, not sent to the middle east to
prop up corrupt dictatorships.


(Regnirps) wrote in message >...
> "Jay" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Just so nobody is confused, processed biodiesel (rapeseed methel
> > ester) is 35 cents higher than diesel, not waste cooking oils. That
> > gunk is free in many areas, FOB restaurant back door.
>
> In Olympia, Washington they are running some busses and gov trucks on processed
> fast food waste and they are paying an extra 35 to 70 cents a gallon of MY
> MONEY!
>
> -- Charlie Springer

[B2431]

>
>"Jay" > wrote in message
om...
>> Just so nobody is confused, processed biodiesel (rapeseed methel
>> ester) is 35 cents higher than diesel, not waste cooking oils. That
>> gunk is free in many areas, FOB restaurant back door.
>
>Dammit Jay, that's "FBO". :-)
>
>Rich S.

FOB at your local FBO?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Rich S.]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> That gunk is free in many areas, FOB restaurant back door.
> >
> >Dammit Jay, that's "FBO". :-)
> >
> >Rich S.
>
> FOB at your local FBO?

It's a natural! $100 hamburgers + fries = airplane fuel.

Rich "Do you have any tartar sauce?" S.

[Regnirps]

(Jay) wrote:

>Everytime I take breath of slightly cleaner air, I'll thank you for
>your 35-70 cent sacrifice. Or you can think of it another way, thats
>money going back into the US economy, not sent to the middle east to
>prop up corrupt dictatorships.

I'm not big on subsidies for things that are not economically feasable. If a
bunch of folks want to get together privatly and make the stuff and sell it to
each other, that is fine. But until it is competetive with other fuels,
taxpayers whould not be footing the bill.

If it is denser, as the description of power and economy implies (like diesel
versus avgas, fewer gallons per hour but a gallon weighs more) maybe it isn't a
bad deal. Do you happen to know the density of biofuel versus diesel, or the
BTU's per unit volume or anything like that?

-- Charlie Springer

[Jay]

(Regnirps) wrote in message >...
> I'm not big on subsidies for things that are not economically feasable. If a
> bunch of folks want to get together privatly and make the stuff and sell it to
> each other, that is fine. But until it is competetive with other fuels,
> taxpayers whould not be footing the bill.

I'm the same way, the problem is that our current system doesn't price
in the cost to the environment, so poluting solutions cost less in the
short run. I think they call it "Tragedy of the commons", the idea
that since the environment isn't owned by anyone, people use it and
trash it, each person extracting the maximum short term benefit from
it. Its a real problem.

> If it is denser, as the description of power and economy implies (like diesel
> versus avgas, fewer gallons per hour but a gallon weighs more) maybe it isn't a
> bad deal. Do you happen to know the density of biofuel versus diesel, or the
> BTU's per unit volume or anything like that?

My recollection is that they are almost the same.

> -- Charlie Springer

[kumaros]

"Regnirps" > wrote in message
...
>
> (Jay) wrote:
>
> >Everytime I take breath of slightly cleaner air, I'll thank you for
> >your 35-70 cent sacrifice. Or you can think of it another way, thats
> >money going back into the US economy, not sent to the middle east to
> >prop up corrupt dictatorships.
>
> I'm not big on subsidies for things that are not economically feasable. If
a
> bunch of folks want to get together privatly and make the stuff and sell
it to
> each other, that is fine. But until it is competetive with other fuels,
> taxpayers whould not be footing the bill.
>
> If it is denser, as the description of power and economy implies (like
diesel
> versus avgas, fewer gallons per hour but a gallon weighs more) maybe it
isn't a
> bad deal. Do you happen to know the density of biofuel versus diesel, or
the
> BTU's per unit volume or anything like that?
>
> -- Charlie Springer
>

Go to http://veggievan.org/ to educate yourselves.
Kumaros
It's all Greek to me

[G EddieA95]

>I'm the same way, the problem is that our current system doesn't price
>in the cost to the environment, so poluting solutions cost less in the
>short run.

Just wait until oil gets short, and society has to replace it with coal, etc.
Environmental concerns will then go right in the toilet.

[Regnirps]

"kumaros" wrote:

>Go to http://veggievan.org/ to educate yourselves.
>Kumaros
>It's all Greek to me

There are some new super yeasts that will make corn syrup into 30% ethanol.
There is also a nice still from NZ for making "pure drinking water" that turns
the stuff into incredible firewater.

-- Charlie Springer