ADS-B Compliance [Archive]

March 2nd 16, 12:45 AM

I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here before: after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS.. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

Thanks,

Tom

Renny[_2_]

March 2nd 16, 01:21 AM

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:45:43 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here before: after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.
>
> Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.
>
> Does anybody know of a smaller solution?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom

Tom,
Please see below. It is from the FAA site and is one of many Q&As.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/faq/

Please take a look at the last statement as it may apply to you. If you do want to install a unit you may want to wait a bit to see if lower cost, lighter and smaller units become available (including potential "TABs" units)....

Thx - Renny

"How will the new ADS-B Out rule affect me?

On January 1, 2020, when operating in the airspace designated in 14 CFR § 91.225 (outlined below) you must be equipped with ADS-B Out avionics that meet the performance requirements of 14 CFR §91.227. Aircraft not complying with the requirements may be denied access to this airspace.
Under the rule, ADS-B Out performance will be required to operate in:
Class A, B, and C.
Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface.
Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
Around those airports identified in 14 CFR part 91, Appendix D.

The ADS-B Out rule does not apply in the airspace defined in items 1 and 2 above for any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders."

[email protected]

March 2nd 16, 01:25 AM

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 6:22:08 PM UTC-7, Renny wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:45:43 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here before: after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.
> >
> > Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.
> >
> > Does anybody know of a smaller solution?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Tom
>
> Tom,
> Please see below. It is from the FAA site and is one of many Q&As.
>
> https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/faq/
>
> Please take a look at the last statement as it may apply to you. If you do want to install a unit you may want to wait a bit to see if lower cost, lighter and smaller units become available (including potential "TABs" units)...
>
> Thx - Renny
>
> "How will the new ADS-B Out rule affect me?
>
> On January 1, 2020, when operating in the airspace designated in 14 CFR § 91.225 (outlined below) you must be equipped with ADS-B Out avionics that meet the performance requirements of 14 CFR §91.227. Aircraft not complying with the requirements may be denied access to this airspace.
> Under the rule, ADS-B Out performance will be required to operate in:
>1. Class A, B, and C.
>2. Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface.
>3. Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
>4. Around those airports identified in 14 CFR part 91, Appendix D.
>
> The ADS-B Out rule does not apply in the airspace defined in items 1 and 2 above for any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders."

Andrzej Kobus

March 2nd 16, 01:37 AM

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here before: after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.
>
> Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.
>
> Does anybody know of a smaller solution?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom

Your Trig TT-21 would not be compliant due to too low power output regardless of what position sensor is used with it.

March 2nd 16, 02:14 AM

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:37:15 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here before: after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.
> >
> > Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.
> >
> > Does anybody know of a smaller solution?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Tom
>
> Your Trig TT-21 would not be compliant due to too low power output regardless of what position sensor is used with it.

The question concerned a complying GPS, but your comment about the TT-21 is just wrong.

Tom

jfitch

March 2nd 16, 02:22 AM

Andrzej Kobus

March 2nd 16, 02:29 AM

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 9:14:33 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:37:15 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here before: after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.
> > >
> > > Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.
> > >
> > > Does anybody know of a smaller solution?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > Your Trig TT-21 would not be compliant due to too low power output regardless of what position sensor is used with it.
>
> The question concerned a complying GPS, but your comment about the TT-21 is just wrong.
>
> Tom

Tom, I suggest you read a little before you reply next time. Here is a quote from Trig website for your information.

"Customers in the U.S. should be aware that FAA, Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) 91.227 requires that a compliant ADS-B Out solution uses a Class 1 transponder. The TT22 is a Class 1 device and meets this requirement. The TT21 is a Class 2 device and does not meet this regulation."

Have a good day.

March 2nd 16, 03:26 AM

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 6:29:39 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 9:14:33 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:37:15 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > > I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here before: after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.
> > > >
> > > > Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.
> > > >
> > > > Does anybody know of a smaller solution?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > >
> > > Your Trig TT-21 would not be compliant due to too low power output regardless of what position sensor is used with it.
> >
> > The question concerned a complying GPS, but your comment about the TT-21 is just wrong.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Tom, I suggest you read a little before you reply next time. Here is a quote from Trig website for your information.
>
> "Customers in the U.S. should be aware that FAA, Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) 91.227 requires that a compliant ADS-B Out solution uses a Class 1 transponder. The TT22 is a Class 1 device and meets this requirement. The TT21 is a Class 2 device and does not meet this regulation."
>
> Have a good day.

So it seems - yet another comment for our friends at the FAA.

Bill T

March 2nd 16, 03:31 AM

Remy, confirm gliders ae not required to have any ADS-B out, above or below 10,000 MSL, in or out of the 30nm Mode C Veil.
They have not changed the FARs.

BillT

Darryl Ramm

March 2nd 16, 03:47 AM

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 6:14:33 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:37:15 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here before: after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.
> > >
> > > Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.
> > >
> > > Does anybody know of a smaller solution?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > Your Trig TT-21 would not be compliant due to too low power output regardless of what position sensor is used with it.
>
> The question concerned a complying GPS, but your comment about the TT-21 is just wrong.
>
> Tom

Oh what utter bull.

So, Andrzej, one of the few owners of a fully certified/complaint ADS-B Out system (just happens to use a Trig TT-22) in a glider in the USA, and somebody who has posted multiple time on r.a.s explaining his ADS-B Out/In setup and all that it can do, is trying to help explain you are confused and you want to tell him his answer is "just wrong"?

So far not a single thing you have posted in this whole thread is correct. Please stop polluting r.a.s with your confused garbage. I don't care if you are utterly confused about what you need to do or not, but I do care when you get on here and start sprouting this stuff as if it is fact and spreading all this misinformation to other pilots. Especially when there are actually things happening that folks will need to pay attention to, that likely will impact many owners/pilots, like possible loss of transponder and ADS-B carriage exemptions and/or adoption of TABS technology.

The limitation with the TT-21 not being suitable for the 2020 Carriage mandate (which gliders are currently exempt from) has been covered many times on r.a.s. I've personally posted many warnings about this Trig TT-21 limitation. And none of this is new, I've worked with the previous Trig distributor to get the word out on this to resellers, and I've spoken or emailed with several of the Trig resellers in the glider community to make sure everybody should be aware of this. When I read stuff like what you have posted in this thread I feel I might as well go bang my head on a wall.

So again... Thanks to 14 CFR § 91.227 to meet the FAA 2020 Carriage mandate an aircraft, if using 1090ES out, requires a TSO-C166b Class B1/B1S device or if experimental a device that "meets the performance of TSO-C166b Class B1/B1S" . The Trig TT-21 is only TSO-C166b Class B0, the larger Trig TT-22 is class B1S. The issue here there was power output requirements, driven by communications with the widely spaced FAA ADS-B ground stations, and that requirement was somewhat a surprise to manufactures and others, including Trig. Elsewhere in the world Class B0 devices will be more first-class citizens.

But since gliders are currently exempt from this carriage mandate (all the stuff in your first post is wrong as well) that does not affect many glider pilots, even those who use the TT-21. And there may be legitimate reasons for some Trig TT-21 owners in experiential gliders to want to broadcast ADS-B Out (e.g. for longer-range tracking with PowerFLARM), even if it does not comply with all the 2020 mandate requirements. Trig TT-21 may be usable as a TABS devices to transmit 1090ES even at these lower power levels, *if* TABS/TSO-C199 carriage/installation regulations happen. And *if* gliders lose their 1090ES Out carriage exemption then this *may* provide a path to carriage complaince for TT-21. Emphasis on *if* and *may*. Getting into the weeds of all that what might/might not happen is a waste of time until we see any related regulations.

Bill T

March 2nd 16, 03:54 AM

Thanks Darryl.
BillT

Darryl Ramm

March 2nd 16, 04:20 AM

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 4:45:43 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here before: after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out.

This is incorrect. And yes it's been claimed before on r.a.s. and folks like me have spent time correcting that misinoamtion. Did you bother to read any og that past stuff before postign yet tagaint he same wrng claim?

Who exactly from the FAA told you this? What is their role/position/department? Got a phone number I'll be happy to contact them and correct their confusion.

The "dummies" explanation of this is the14 CFR workinf for cartirate reuqroetmsn and glider exntpiosm fro ADS-B Out basically mirros the same reqikanmta and exmaptiosn for teansponders. if the ADS-B reuglations meant gliders needed ADS-B out above 10,000' then we would have had to been carryign transpodners above 10,000', and we don't... right.

Did you actually try to carefully read 14 CFR 91.225? I understand that reading CFRs is not fun but you have to switch on the part of your brain that can processes nonsense and work thought carefully exactly what the lawyer writing some regulation meant. The wording that confuses people is this one...

"(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted--
(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."

The clause here about 10,000' or lower applies to the below the ceiling of class B or C airport, not in general. it's not too hard to work out. It's not a separate clause, its a qualifier on the opening of that sentence talking about below the altitude of Class B or C airspace. They just don't want non-ADS-B out aircraft near Class B or C airspace.

Note the nearly exact same wording here as the exemption for transponder carriage in 14 CFR § 91.215 (b)(3)

"(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and"

All yes, this exactly has been discussed out on r.a.s. before...

> The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out.

That would be TSO-C199/TABS devcices that have been posted about here a lot.. If you are going to sleep through the movie you are going to miss a lot....

> Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020.

Bull****, no it won't, not currently. If gliders lose their current ADS-B Out exemption it may become an issue.

> I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

As discussed elsewhere in this thread, your TT-21 cannot be used to meet ADS-B Out 2020 carriage mandate requirements (which gliders are currently exempt from).

The size of a complaint (e.g. TSO-C145c or equivalent) GPS is really not the issue. Why would you fit it "in your panel"? That GPS box and antenna could be installed in many locations in a typical glider. The significant issue is likely cost and maybe power consumption.

And asking for advice about GPS units for a certain ADS-B Out system, and thinking you have much choice, may be a waste of time, certainly for certified gliders. *** Go ask the ADS-B Out manufacturer what you are allowed to use--and do what they say***. In a certified glider or any other aircraft you do not have an arbitrary choice of what GPS to install with what ADS-B Out system. Anybody planning to do an install should check with the transponder manufacturer and the A&P/avionics shop who is going to do the install and obtain FAA field approval for the install. You need to correct setup documentation from the manufacturer and the FAA FSDO will likely want to see that documentation/previous STC approval of the same GPS and ADS-B-Out pairing. And yes all this has been discussed on r.a.s before as well...

> Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

The solution is to stop worrying about thing that are not issues, and wait and see what happens with glider carriage exemptions and with TABS/TSO-C199 regulations and devices.

Darryl Ramm

March 2nd 16, 04:33 AM

[sorry repost, with many typos corrected]

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 4:45:43 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here before: after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out.

This is incorrect. And yes it's been claimed before on r.a.s. and folks like me have spent time correcting that misinformation. Did you bother to read any of that past stuff before posting yet again the same wrong, confused, information?

Who exactly from the FAA told you this? What is their role/position/department? Got a phone number? I'll be happy to contact them and correct their confusion, or point other FAA employees at them to do the same.

The "dummies" explanation of this is the14 CFR 91.225 wording for ADS-B Out carriage requirements and glider exemptions basically mirrors the same requirements and exemption regulations for transponders. If the ADS-B Out carriage regulations meant gliders needed ADS-B out above 10,000' then we would have had to been carrying transponders above 10,000' all this time, and we don't... right.

Did you actually try to carefully read 14 CFR 91.225? I understand that reading CFRs is not fun but you have to switch on the part of your brain that can processes nonsense and work thought carefully exactly what the lawyer writing some regulation meant. The wording that confuses people is this one...

"(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted--
(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."

The clause here about 10,000' or lower applies to the below the ceiling of Class B or C airport, not in general. it's not too hard to work out. It's not a separate clause, its a qualifier on the opening of that sentence talking about below the altitude of Class B or C airspace. They just don't want non-ADS-B out aircraft near Class B or C airspace.

Note the nearly exact same wording here as the exemption for transponder carriage in 14 CFR § 91.215 (b)(3)

"(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and"

And yes, this exactly has been all explained on r.a.s. before...

> The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out.

Well the real good news is you are wrong. But what you are talking about now is TSO-C199/TABS devices that have been posted about on r.a.s a lot. If you are going to sleep through the movie you are going to miss a lot...

> Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020.

Bull****, no it won't, not currently. If gliders lose their current ADS-B Out exemption this may become an issue. If we do lose that exemption I hope we will gain the ability to use TABS devices to meet both transponder and ADS-B Out requirements. I and others have posted on r.a.s. about TSO-C199 since shortly after the TSO was published, you can search r.a.s. for those posts.

> I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

As discussed elsewhere in this thread, your TT-21 cannot be used to meet ADS-B Out 2020 carriage mandate requirements (which gliders are currently exempt from).

The size of a complaint (e.g. TSO-C145c or equivalent) GPS is really not the issue. Why would you fit it "in your panel"? That GPS box and antenna could be installed in many locations in a typical glider. The significant issue is likely cost and maybe power consumption.

And asking for advice about GPS units for a certain ADS-B Out system, and thinking you have much choice, may be a waste of time, certainly for certified gliders. *** You should be asking the ADS-B Out manufacturer what they support you using--and do what they say***. There are serious technical issues here. In a certified glider or any other aircraft you do not have an arbitrary choice of what GPS to install with what ADS-B Out system. Anybody planning to do an install should check with the transponder manufacturer and the A&P/avionics shop who is going to do the install and obtain FAA field approval for the install. You need to correct setup documentation from the manufacturer and the FAA FSDO will likely want to see that documentation/previous STC approval of the same GPS and ADS-B-Out pairing. And yes all this has been discussed on r.a.s before as well...

> Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

The solution is to stop worrying about thing that are not issues, and certainly to stop posting all this misinformation on r.a.s, and just wait and see what happens with glider carriage exemptions and with TABS/TSO-C199 regulations and devices.

March 3rd 16, 03:43 AM

> This is incorrect. And yes it's been claimed before on r.a.s. and folks like me have spent time correcting that misinformation. Did you bother to read any of that past stuff before posting yet again the same wrong, confused, information?

Yes, I did.

>
> Who exactly from the FAA told you this? What is their role/position/department? Got a phone number? I'll be happy to contact them and correct their confusion, or point other FAA employees at them to do the same.
>

I spoke to Doug Belcher from the Spokane FSDO (800-341-2623).

> Did you actually try to carefully read 14 CFR 91.225?

Yes, I did.

> > The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out.
>
> Well the real good news is you are wrong. But what you are talking about now is TSO-C199/TABS devices that have been posted about on r.a.s a lot. If you are going to sleep through the movie you are going to miss a lot...

The good news is you can get your info straight from the FAA: http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS%20briefing.pdf

>
> > Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020.
>
> Bull****, no it won't, not currently. If gliders lose their current ADS-B Out exemption this may become an issue. If we do lose that exemption I hope we will gain the ability to use TABS devices to meet both transponder and ADS-B Out requirements. I and others have posted on r.a.s. about TSO-C199 since shortly after the TSO was published, you can search r.a.s. for those posts.

I suggest that you take that up with the FAA, not me. After all, the FAA has the ONLY vote that counts!

>
> > I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.
>
> As discussed elsewhere in this thread, your TT-21 cannot be used to meet ADS-B Out 2020 carriage mandate requirements (which gliders are currently exempt from).
>
> The size of a complaint (e.g. TSO-C145c or equivalent) GPS is really not the issue. Why would you fit it "in your panel"? That GPS box and antenna could be installed in many locations in a typical glider. The significant issue is likely cost and maybe power consumption.
>

I think you mean "compliant GPS". Where and how I mount my equipment in my glider is up to me and my A&P, but having smaller certified units would make life MUCH easier.

> And asking for advice about GPS units for a certain ADS-B Out system, and thinking you have much choice, may be a waste of time, certainly for certified gliders.

It certainly has been to this point.

> > Does anybody know of a smaller solution?
>
> The solution is to stop worrying about thing that are not issues, and certainly to stop posting all this misinformation on r.a.s, and just wait and see what happens with glider carriage exemptions and with TABS/TSO-C199 regulations and devices.

I agree with you that 91.225, as written, exempts gliders from ADS-B out compliance. I am going to get a clarification from the FAA on this.

Tom

March 3rd 16, 05:58 PM

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 8:33:05 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> [sorry repost, with many typos corrected]
>
> On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 4:45:43 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here before: after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out.
>
> This is incorrect. And yes it's been claimed before on r.a.s. and folks like me have spent time correcting that misinformation. Did you bother to read any of that past stuff before posting yet again the same wrong, confused, information?
>
> Who exactly from the FAA told you this? What is their role/position/department? Got a phone number? I'll be happy to contact them and correct their confusion, or point other FAA employees at them to do the same.
>
> The "dummies" explanation of this is the14 CFR 91.225 wording for ADS-B Out carriage requirements and glider exemptions basically mirrors the same requirements and exemption regulations for transponders. If the ADS-B Out carriage regulations meant gliders needed ADS-B out above 10,000' then we would have had to been carrying transponders above 10,000' all this time, and we don't... right.
>
> Did you actually try to carefully read 14 CFR 91.225? I understand that reading CFRs is not fun but you have to switch on the part of your brain that can processes nonsense and work thought carefully exactly what the lawyer writing some regulation meant. The wording that confuses people is this one..
>
> "(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted--
> (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
> (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."
>
> The clause here about 10,000' or lower applies to the below the ceiling of Class B or C airport, not in general. it's not too hard to work out. It's not a separate clause, its a qualifier on the opening of that sentence talking about below the altitude of Class B or C airspace. They just don't want non-ADS-B out aircraft near Class B or C airspace.
>
> Note the nearly exact same wording here as the exemption for transponder carriage in 14 CFR § 91.215 (b)(3)
>
> "(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and"
>
> And yes, this exactly has been all explained on r.a.s. before...
>
> > The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out.
>
> Well the real good news is you are wrong. But what you are talking about now is TSO-C199/TABS devices that have been posted about on r.a.s a lot. If you are going to sleep through the movie you are going to miss a lot...
>
> > Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020.
>
> Bull****, no it won't, not currently. If gliders lose their current ADS-B Out exemption this may become an issue. If we do lose that exemption I hope we will gain the ability to use TABS devices to meet both transponder and ADS-B Out requirements. I and others have posted on r.a.s. about TSO-C199 since shortly after the TSO was published, you can search r.a.s. for those posts.
>
> > I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.
>
> As discussed elsewhere in this thread, your TT-21 cannot be used to meet ADS-B Out 2020 carriage mandate requirements (which gliders are currently exempt from).
>
> The size of a complaint (e.g. TSO-C145c or equivalent) GPS is really not the issue. Why would you fit it "in your panel"? That GPS box and antenna could be installed in many locations in a typical glider. The significant issue is likely cost and maybe power consumption.
>
> And asking for advice about GPS units for a certain ADS-B Out system, and thinking you have much choice, may be a waste of time, certainly for certified gliders. *** You should be asking the ADS-B Out manufacturer what they support you using--and do what they say***. There are serious technical issues here. In a certified glider or any other aircraft you do not have an arbitrary choice of what GPS to install with what ADS-B Out system. Anybody planning to do an install should check with the transponder manufacturer and the A&P/avionics shop who is going to do the install and obtain FAA field approval for the install. You need to correct setup documentation from the manufacturer and the FAA FSDO will likely want to see that documentation/previous STC approval of the same GPS and ADS-B-Out pairing. And yes all this has been discussed on r.a.s before as well...
>
> > Does anybody know of a smaller solution?
>
> The solution is to stop worrying about thing that are not issues, and certainly to stop posting all this misinformation on r.a.s, and just wait and see what happens with glider carriage exemptions and with TABS/TSO-C199 regulations and devices.

I contacted the Spokane FSDO again today, but talked instead to Chris Cowgill, an aviation safety inspector. Like Belcher, he was unfamiliar with the ADS-B Out mandate and 91.225 (a recurring theme). After a quick reading he agreed with me that gliders are exempt.

Usually I get very informed responses from the FAA, but they failed me this time. 2020 is still a ways off, and the guys in the field just haven't been asked this before. They should still know the regs, however, or at the very least contact somebody that does.

Tom

Darryl Ramm

March 3rd 16, 06:19 PM

On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 9:58:44 AM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 8:33:05 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > [sorry repost, with many typos corrected]
> >
> > On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 4:45:43 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > > I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here before: after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out.
> >
> > This is incorrect. And yes it's been claimed before on r.a.s. and folks like me have spent time correcting that misinformation. Did you bother to read any of that past stuff before posting yet again the same wrong, confused, information?
> >
> > Who exactly from the FAA told you this? What is their role/position/department? Got a phone number? I'll be happy to contact them and correct their confusion, or point other FAA employees at them to do the same.
> >
> > The "dummies" explanation of this is the14 CFR 91.225 wording for ADS-B Out carriage requirements and glider exemptions basically mirrors the same requirements and exemption regulations for transponders. If the ADS-B Out carriage regulations meant gliders needed ADS-B out above 10,000' then we would have had to been carrying transponders above 10,000' all this time, and we don't... right.
> >
> > Did you actually try to carefully read 14 CFR 91.225? I understand that reading CFRs is not fun but you have to switch on the part of your brain that can processes nonsense and work thought carefully exactly what the lawyer writing some regulation meant. The wording that confuses people is this one..
> >
> > "(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted--
> > (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
> > (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."
> >
> > The clause here about 10,000' or lower applies to the below the ceiling of Class B or C airport, not in general. it's not too hard to work out. It's not a separate clause, its a qualifier on the opening of that sentence talking about below the altitude of Class B or C airspace. They just don't want non-ADS-B out aircraft near Class B or C airspace.
> >
> > Note the nearly exact same wording here as the exemption for transponder carriage in 14 CFR § 91.215 (b)(3)
> >
> > "(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and"
> >
> > And yes, this exactly has been all explained on r.a.s. before...
> >
> > > The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out.
> >
> > Well the real good news is you are wrong. But what you are talking about now is TSO-C199/TABS devices that have been posted about on r.a.s a lot. If you are going to sleep through the movie you are going to miss a lot...
> >
> > > Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020.
> >
> > Bull****, no it won't, not currently. If gliders lose their current ADS-B Out exemption this may become an issue. If we do lose that exemption I hope we will gain the ability to use TABS devices to meet both transponder and ADS-B Out requirements. I and others have posted on r.a.s. about TSO-C199 since shortly after the TSO was published, you can search r.a.s. for those posts.
> >
> > > I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening..
> >
> > As discussed elsewhere in this thread, your TT-21 cannot be used to meet ADS-B Out 2020 carriage mandate requirements (which gliders are currently exempt from).
> >
> > The size of a complaint (e.g. TSO-C145c or equivalent) GPS is really not the issue. Why would you fit it "in your panel"? That GPS box and antenna could be installed in many locations in a typical glider. The significant issue is likely cost and maybe power consumption.
> >
> > And asking for advice about GPS units for a certain ADS-B Out system, and thinking you have much choice, may be a waste of time, certainly for certified gliders. *** You should be asking the ADS-B Out manufacturer what they support you using--and do what they say***. There are serious technical issues here. In a certified glider or any other aircraft you do not have an arbitrary choice of what GPS to install with what ADS-B Out system. Anybody planning to do an install should check with the transponder manufacturer and the A&P/avionics shop who is going to do the install and obtain FAA field approval for the install. You need to correct setup documentation from the manufacturer and the FAA FSDO will likely want to see that documentation/previous STC approval of the same GPS and ADS-B-Out pairing. And yes all this has been discussed on r.a.s before as well...
> >
> > > Does anybody know of a smaller solution?
> >
> > The solution is to stop worrying about thing that are not issues, and certainly to stop posting all this misinformation on r.a.s, and just wait and see what happens with glider carriage exemptions and with TABS/TSO-C199 regulations and devices.
>
> I contacted the Spokane FSDO again today, but talked instead to Chris Cowgill, an aviation safety inspector. Like Belcher, he was unfamiliar with the ADS-B Out mandate and 91.225 (a recurring theme). After a quick reading he agreed with me that gliders are exempt.
>
> Usually I get very informed responses from the FAA, but they failed me this time. 2020 is still a ways off, and the guys in the field just haven't been asked this before. They should still know the regs, however, or at the very least contact somebody that does.
>
> Tom

Tom, thanks for following up. That particular wording *is* sadly confusing. And that Class B/C airspace ceiling and 10,000' issue is something folks who fly gliders near Class B and C airspace should be aware of... but the much better thing there has been to just equip with transponders and not have to worry about complying with that exclusion. Come 2020 folks who fly gliders near Class B/C airspace and who are not ADS-B out equipped (presumably almost everybody) will need to worry about not violating 14 CFR 91.225(e)(2). If gliders lose transponder and ADS-B Out exemptions and/or TABS regulations happen then lots of things about all this will change.

Dan Marotta

March 3rd 16, 07:32 PM

<snip?

On 3/2/2016 8:43 PM, 2G wrote:
> The good news is you can get your info straight from the FAA:http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS%20briefing.pdf
<\snip>

I was just talking with my local FSDO and he laughed and told me that,
during his training in Oklahoma city, he was welcomed to the FAA where
they have 93 independently operated offices! Yes, they're all supposed
to operate under the same rules (the FARs) but they sometimes interpret
them differently. For example, when I received my Air Force training in
the Rockwell Sabreliner, the FSDO in the region where I took the
training considered the aircraft to be a center-line thrust aircraft.
So I deferred getting a type rating in the aircraft until I returned to
my duty station in a different region where the aircraft was NOT
considered to be a center-line thrust aircraft. Voila! I received an
unrestricted Airplane Multi-engine Land rating with a type rating for
the aircraft. Same rules, different interpretation.

I'm gonna wait until the ADS-B requirements are better defined before
buying any equipment.
--
Dan, 5J

David Kinsell[_2_]

March 4th 16, 04:22 AM

On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 12:32:17 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

> I'm gonna wait until the ADS-B requirements are better defined before
> buying any equipment.

In general a good strategy. But for anyone installing or upgrading a
transponder today, paying attention to ADS-B would make sense. Putting
in a Mode S that was not upgradeable would not be advised.

Apart from that, pilots intending to fly high in the great SouthWest
should keep in mind that Class 2 transponders like the TT21 are limited
by regulation to 15,000 ft MSL. Certainly not worth it to me to save a
small amount of power and cost by putting up with a limitation like that.

-Dave

Dan Marotta

March 4th 16, 07:18 PM

Indeed!

My LAK-17a, which, BTW, is for sale on Wings and Wheels (shameless
plug), has a compliant Trig TT22 transponder installed.

Dan

On 3/3/2016 9:22 PM, David Kinsell wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 12:32:17 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>
>> I'm gonna wait until the ADS-B requirements are better defined before
>> buying any equipment.
> In general a good strategy. But for anyone installing or upgrading a
> transponder today, paying attention to ADS-B would make sense. Putting
> in a Mode S that was not upgradeable would not be advised.
>
> Apart from that, pilots intending to fly high in the great SouthWest
> should keep in mind that Class 2 transponders like the TT21 are limited
> by regulation to 15,000 ft MSL. Certainly not worth it to me to save a
> small amount of power and cost by putting up with a limitation like that.
>
> -Dave

--
Dan, 5J