Tow Tracker

[Giaco]

I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.

My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.

Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.

I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

[Casey[_2_]]

Sounds nifty. Will it work for multiple tow planes? Will multiple tow planes go to one spreadsheet in the cloud so pilots can be given read access to verify tow hight, number of tows, and amount owed, and treasure/ops given permission to mark as paid?

Seems like a lot of going back and forth from logger to tow plane back to logger then upload. Why not have tow plane put in tail number of glider, then apps does everything else through smart phone? Kinda like auto upload to OLC.

Cloud Spread sheet has: Tow plane / glider tail # / tow height / take off time / land time / tow cost / paid

clicking on the spreadsheet can organize by tow plane, glider tail #, ect. One can then see how many tows each tow plane did, how many tows a glider did, total cost for that glider, ect.

Good luck, have fun.

[kiwiindenver]

We are in the final stages of doing something similar. I think it is going to work really well.

Our first stage was to digitize the glider flight reservation, loging and billing. Now we are about to start roll out of the tow pilot portion.

Our tow pilots will login with their name and tow plane initials at the start of each day. Each flight they select glider pilot and glider ID from a list. As you plan, highest altitude is the default but can be adjusted if needed.

The app auto connects to our club WiFi and uploads the tows which are synced to the data they may have already been pre entered by the glider pilot. Thus will happen any time the tow plane is in range of the wifi.

Contact me if you want to discuss. Good luck!

Alan

[JS]

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:57:57 PM UTC-8, Giaco wrote:
> I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.
>
> My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.
>
> Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.
>
> I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

Believe something like this was developed in Australia a few years ago using the FLARM in the towplane and a PDA. The PDA uploads to the club's WiFi when it can - for example as the towplane passes the office.
Aircraft info comes from the FLARM in the glider and the top of the tow is logged when distance between tow plane and glider increases.
Will ask for an update and contact info.
Jim

[Jim White[_3_]]

At Booker we have fitted Flarm to all our tugs and a Flarm receiver in the
club house. We then get a report through OGN for every launch showing tug,
glider, times, and release height for every tow.

See

http://live.glidernet.org/flightlog/index.php?a=EGTB&s=QFE&u=F&z=0&p=&t=0&d=04032016


for an example

Jim

[Poppy Puppy]

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 3:18:04 PM UTC+11, JS wrote:
> On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:57:57 PM UTC-8, Giaco wrote:
> > I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.
> >
> > My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.
> >
> > Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.
> >
> > I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..
>
> Believe something like this was developed in Australia a few years ago using the FLARM in the towplane and a PDA. The PDA uploads to the club's WiFi when it can - for example as the towplane passes the office.
> Aircraft info comes from the FLARM in the glider and the top of the tow is logged when distance between tow plane and glider increases.
> Will ask for an update and contact info.
> Jim

Look up Dittolog.
Developed by the guys at Lake Keepit I believe.

[Giaco]

I believe it could work with multiple tow planes, you would have a single cell phone connected to Bluetooth receivers in each plane.

While flarm is an option, the majority of club aircraft I have flown in do not have flarm, and with a focus on the ability to track a pilot, glider, and tow height, this makes using flarm too cost-prohibitive, and non-specific to the pilot.

The other goal is to take recording burden off of the tow pilots. Which is why you would ideally have the tow purely be involved in the process for recording the tow height.

There are certainly a lot of interesting flarm options out there though, thanks for the responses. Dittolog seems like a great product for the flarm line, but will also cost the club $30 per pilot per year, which seems a bit steep to me as well.

Chris

[Darryl Ramm]

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 5:49:23 AM UTC-8, Giaco wrote:
> I believe it could work with multiple tow planes, you would have a single cell phone connected to Bluetooth receivers in each plane.
>
> While flarm is an option, the majority of club aircraft I have flown in do not have flarm, and with a focus on the ability to track a pilot, glider, and tow height, this makes using flarm too cost-prohibitive, and non-specific to the pilot.
>
> The other goal is to take recording burden off of the tow pilots. Which is why you would ideally have the tow purely be involved in the process for recording the tow height.
>
> There are certainly a lot of interesting flarm options out there though, thanks for the responses. Dittolog seems like a great product for the flarm line, but will also cost the club $30 per pilot per year, which seems a bit steep to me as well.
>
> Chris

Maybe it's about time those club aircraft were fitted with FLARM, and this additional benefit help justify/fund that. Maybe that is better than focusing effort onto non-FLARM things. Nothing is free, hardware, the cost of people time and hassle for implementing anything, including testing out new unproven software and workflows, losing track of charges etc. is pretty real.

[Giaco]

> Maybe it's about time those club aircraft were fitted with FLARM, and this additional benefit help justify/fund that. Maybe that is better than focusing effort onto non-FLARM things. Nothing is free, hardware, the cost of people time and hassle for implementing anything, including testing out new unproven software and workflows, losing track of charges etc. is pretty real.

Perhaps, but that is still expensive, and does not solve the problem of no knowing who is being charged for the flight...

There are multiple examples of programs that the community has put together that are not cost-prohibitive, proprietary solutions...XCSoar for one. I understand there is significant development time and effort required, but I believe that is fully worthwhile if it would be of benefit to the large number of small clubs that struggle with tow logs.

[Jim White[_3_]]

At 09:50 07 March 2016, Jim White wrote:
>At Booker we have fitted Flarm to all our tugs and a Flarm receiver in th
>club house. We then get a report through OGN for every launch showing tug
>glider, times, and release height for every tow.
>
>See
>
>http://live.glidernet.org/flightlog/index.php?a=EGTB&s=QFE&u=F&z=0&p=&t=0&d=0403201
>
>
>for an example
>
>Jim
>
>Sorry the web site seems to nick the last character off each line. Add a 6
to the above it needs to read

http://live.glidernet.org/flightlog/index.php?a=EGTB&s=QFE&u=F&z=-12&p=&t=0&d=04032016@

or drop the @ if shown above!!

[JS]

Sorry. While the OP gave a lower limit of no pen and paper, the upper limit of no FLARM was not mentioned.
I'd still use dedicated equipment even if disinterested in the five-lettered thingy. Using personal smart phones seems flawed. For example make sure other networks are not going to grab the wing runner's phone when the towplane is out of range. The significant other of the wing runner bringing lunch, or the wing runner's own logger being turned on could be that network.
Jim

[[email protected]]

Somehow the name of the pilot flying the glider has to be included so he/she can be charged. How do you do that ?
Dan
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 9:57:57 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
> I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.
>
> My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.
>
> Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.
>
> I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

[Giaco]

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 8:39:59 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Somehow the name of the pilot flying the glider has to be included so he/she can be charged. How do you do that ?
> Dan

Dan,
That is one of my biggest drivers for not using FLARM. The way i envision the process...

1) Rope Runner uses dedicated "club" cell phone and app to enter in pilot info, glider info, and selects which towplane is coming (if more than one).

2) When the tow comes within bluetooth range, the phone makes the connection to the tow tracker, and the pilots transmits either the data or a unique id for that flight to the tow.

3) The towplane launches, with either an onboard GPS or simple barograph and records the flight. On landing, the device calculates the maximum altitude (or tow time as some clubs use) and assigns that value in a packet with the rest of the flight data.

4) When the towplane comes back into range and the rope runner re-connects, the completed log is downloaded to the handheld device and the next partial log is sent to the tow.

Thus both the device memory and handheld (cellphone) should both have records of the flights, but the app should be able to upload via .csv or other formats quickly at the end of the day (or real time if you really want). I suppose it could be a laptop or any other sort of device that acts as the master/server.

It is quickly becoming apparent that the logging responsibility varies greatly among different clubs!

[Dan Marotta]

Just because you *can* do something doesn't necessarily mean that you
*should*.

Despite the no pen and paper thing, during my last 6 years of towing
(I'm retired now), it was a simple matter of picking up the clipboard
and recording the name of the pilot and number of the glider and then
recording the release altitude. I don't know of anyone not being billed
in all that time. There's no need for take off and landing times of the
tug.

On 3/7/2016 1:07 PM, JS wrote:
> Sorry. While the OP gave a lower limit of no pen and paper, the upper limit of no FLARM was not mentioned.
> I'd still use dedicated equipment even if disinterested in the five-lettered thingy. Using personal smart phones seems flawed. For example make sure other networks are not going to grab the wing runner's phone when the towplane is out of range. The significant other of the wing runner bringing lunch, or the wing runner's own logger being turned on could be that network.
> Jim

--
Dan, 5J

[Surge]

On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
> There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.

Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time the tug is airborne.

[Dan Marotta]

Well I didn't mention it, but I also logged tach time.

On 3/7/2016 10:13 PM, Surge wrote:
> On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.
> Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time the tug is airborne.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

In our club (and probably all other clubs)there is a dedicated time keeper that uses a program on a tablet to record pilot name and all other information.
With your idea this function can be eliminated. makes sense to me !
When can we see the app working ??
Dan

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 10:08:13 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 8:39:59 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Somehow the name of the pilot flying the glider has to be included so he/she can be charged. How do you do that ?
> > Dan
>
> Dan,
> That is one of my biggest drivers for not using FLARM. The way i envision the process...
>
> 1) Rope Runner uses dedicated "club" cell phone and app to enter in pilot info, glider info, and selects which towplane is coming (if more than one)..
>
> 2) When the tow comes within bluetooth range, the phone makes the connection to the tow tracker, and the pilots transmits either the data or a unique id for that flight to the tow.
>
> 3) The towplane launches, with either an onboard GPS or simple barograph and records the flight. On landing, the device calculates the maximum altitude (or tow time as some clubs use) and assigns that value in a packet with the rest of the flight data.
>
> 4) When the towplane comes back into range and the rope runner re-connects, the completed log is downloaded to the handheld device and the next partial log is sent to the tow.
>
> Thus both the device memory and handheld (cellphone) should both have records of the flights, but the app should be able to upload via .csv or other formats quickly at the end of the day (or real time if you really want). I suppose it could be a laptop or any other sort of device that acts as the master/server.
>
> It is quickly becoming apparent that the logging responsibility varies greatly among different clubs!

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 11:13:11 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
> On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.
>
> Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time the tug is airborne.

I'm not sure I fully understand the logic in charging by time instead of altitude - unless your glider pilots are in the habit of hanging on to a tow? Seems to put the glider pilot at the mercy of the weather and tow pilot skill...

Our club charges by altitude, and solve the problem of bookkeeping by making the glider pilot himself responsible for filling in his release altitude. If he forgets, a standard 3000' fee is charged - usually a pretty good deterrent! We do have to log pilot and times, and are looking for a more high-tech solution than clipboard and pencil - but I'm not holding my breath ;^)

Kirk
66

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

Another flaw with charging by time is those towpilots that want to "build time" or take longer to get back after the glider gets off, or keep on climbing even after the glider released, etc. No system will be perfect.

At my club, glider pilot fills out a ticket. Has his name, address (for billing), date, glider type, speed, and planned release altitude. Towpilot is handed the ticket, puts his initial on it, tow number for the day, and starting tach time. If the glider pilot gets off early, he still gets to pay to his desired height, unless the towpilot changes the ticket. If he gets off late, and the towpilot does not change the ticket, he got some free altitude. And we bill in 1000 foot increments.

Yes, we still use hand signals for take up slack and go. We have far more non-towpilots than we have towpilots, so to try and have all contribute equally to running the club, we have more people scheduled on line duty than we have scheduled towpilots each day. So, we have someone on ground ops at the front and back of the tow rope. We think our system works pretty good. Although, I did just have a day's worth of tickets from November show up with the ones from our last day of flying in February...

Steve Leonard
Kansas Soaring Association

[Steve Thompson[_2_]]

Surely if you charge by altitude (or rather- height) the lighter gliders
will be
subsidising the heavier, probably 2 seat gliders? You may wish to do that.
But
time seems fairer to me.

I believe the UK generally does Height, while France in my experience does

Hobbs time.

At 18:21 08 March 2016, kirk.stant wrote:
>On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 11:13:11 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> > There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.
>>=20
>> Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time
the
>=
>tug is airborne.
>
>I'm not sure I fully understand the logic in charging by time instead of
>al=
>titude - unless your glider pilots are in the habit of hanging on to a
>tow?=
> Seems to put the glider pilot at the mercy of the weather and tow pilot
>sk=
>ill...
>
>Our club charges by altitude, and solve the problem of bookkeeping by
>makin=
>g the glider pilot himself responsible for filling in his release
>altitude.=
> If he forgets, a standard 3000' fee is charged - usually a pretty good
>de=
>terrent! We do have to log pilot and times, and are looking for a more
>high=
>-tech solution than clipboard and pencil - but I'm not holding my breath
>;=
>^)
>
>Kirk
>66
>

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 2:15:06 PM UTC-5, Steve Thompson wrote:
> Surely if you charge by altitude (or rather- height) the lighter gliders
> will be
> subsidising the heavier, probably 2 seat gliders? You may wish to do that.
> But
> time seems fairer to me.
>
> I believe the UK generally does Height, while France in my experience does
>
> Hobbs time.
>
> At 18:21 08 March 2016, kirk.stant wrote:
> >On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 11:13:11 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> > There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.
> >>=20
> >> Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time
> the
> >=
> >tug is airborne.
> >
> >I'm not sure I fully understand the logic in charging by time instead of
> >al=
> >titude - unless your glider pilots are in the habit of hanging on to a
> >tow?=
> > Seems to put the glider pilot at the mercy of the weather and tow pilot
> >sk=
> >ill...
> >
> >Our club charges by altitude, and solve the problem of bookkeeping by
> >makin=
> >g the glider pilot himself responsible for filling in his release
> >altitude.=
> > If he forgets, a standard 3000' fee is charged - usually a pretty good
> >de=
> >terrent! We do have to log pilot and times, and are looking for a more
> >high=
> >-tech solution than clipboard and pencil - but I'm not holding my breath
> >;=
> >^)
> >
> >Kirk
> >66
> >

We bill both ways (although one is far more common in practice),
and I suspect we're like a lot. We bill normal tows by altitude
but cross country retrieval is billed by Hobbs time.

Matt

[Skypilot]

Kingaroy uses Dittolog,

http://www.dittolog.com

It is an awesome system that does everything, we have had very few issues with it. Probably the hardest bit is getting private owners to register their FLARM in the system so they can be charged, no matter which system you choose this will always be an issue is you have less than enthusiastic pilots. Our way around it was to place a $30.00 fee on top of the tow charge, it's written in our manual very very clearly so there can be no argument.





I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.

My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.

Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.

I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

[Craig Reinholt]

Respectfully, I believe there are issues that need to be addressed before you spend the effort creating the app...

> 1) Rope Runner uses dedicated "club" cell phone and app to enter in pilot info, glider info, and selects which towplane is coming (if more than one)..
-cost to club to purchase and maintain cell phone and cell data package
-spare phone when the Rope Runner takes the primary home
-spare battery (or 2) when the phone runs out of power
-ability to correct input errors of Rope Runner (no billing errors)

> 2) When the tow comes within bluetooth range, the phone makes the connection to the tow tracker, and the pilots transmits either the data or a unique id for that flight to the tow.
-cost and installation of tow tracker (and GPS / barograph system) in each tow plane
-spare tow tracker (plug and play) if primary fails
-requested tow altitude to be voice transmitted to tow pilot by radio prior to launch

> 3) The towplane launches, with either an onboard GPS or simple barograph and records the flight. On landing, the device calculates the maximum altitude (or tow time as some clubs use) and assigns that value in a packet with the rest of the flight data.
-immediate ability of tow pilot to correct tow altitude and/or time when the glider got off tow and tow pilot missed the glider release

> 4) When the towplane comes back into range and the rope runner re-connects, the completed log is downloaded to the handheld device and the next partial log is sent to the tow.
>
> Thus both the device memory and handheld (cellphone) should both have records of the flights, but the app should be able to upload via .csv or other formats quickly at the end of the day (or real time if you really want). I suppose it could be a laptop or any other sort of device that acts as the master/server.
>
> It is quickly becoming apparent that the logging responsibility varies greatly among different clubs!

-IMO, the collected data needs to interface directly with the club billing software to issue an appropriate invoice to the glider pilot. Otherwise, the added costs and issues listed above render the App an expensive alternative to pen and tow ticket.
Craig

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 12:43:36 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 2:15:06 PM UTC-5, Steve Thompson wrote:
> > Surely if you charge by altitude (or rather- height) the lighter gliders
> > will be
> > subsidising the heavier, probably 2 seat gliders? You may wish to do that.
> > But
> > time seems fairer to me.
> >
> > I believe the UK generally does Height, while France in my experience does
> >
> > Hobbs time.
> >
> > At 18:21 08 March 2016, kirk.stant wrote:
> > >On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 11:13:11 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >> > There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.
> > >>=20
> > >> Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time
> > the
> > >=
> > >tug is airborne.
> > >
> > >I'm not sure I fully understand the logic in charging by time instead of
> > >al=
> > >titude - unless your glider pilots are in the habit of hanging on to a
> > >tow?=
> > > Seems to put the glider pilot at the mercy of the weather and tow pilot
> > >sk=
> > >ill...
> > >
> > >Our club charges by altitude, and solve the problem of bookkeeping by
> > >makin=
> > >g the glider pilot himself responsible for filling in his release
> > >altitude.=
> > > If he forgets, a standard 3000' fee is charged - usually a pretty good
> > >de=
> > >terrent! We do have to log pilot and times, and are looking for a more
> > >high=
> > >-tech solution than clipboard and pencil - but I'm not holding my breath
> > >;=
> > >^)
> > >
> > >Kirk
> > >66
> > >
>
> We bill both ways (although one is far more common in practice),
> and I suspect we're like a lot. We bill normal tows by altitude
> but cross country retrieval is billed by Hobbs time.
>
> Matt


Maybe you cold sign all of the towplanes/tow pilots up as Uber drivers, then Uber would do the billing for you automatically - based on time and distance.

[just kidding]

9B

[Surge]

On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 20:56:51 UTC+2, Steve Leonard wrote:
> Another flaw with charging by time is those towpilots that want to "build time" or take longer to get back after the glider gets off, or keep on climbing even after the glider released, etc. No system will be perfect.

Going a bit OT now but:
Billing on time (Hobbs or stop watch) isn't perfect but it's the closest way to bill according to the operating cost of a tug. The more engine time on the tug the higher the fuel cost and the shorter the inspection/maintenance intervals.

We don't have problems with tug pilots trying to "build time" and in any case time based fees are a great deterrent to people dawdling. If the glider pilot get's a massive aerotow charge he will make sure that the tug pilot doesn't decide to do any short cross country flights at his expense again. With a height based fee structure a 2000 foot tow could take 5 minutes or 30 minutes depending on the tug pilot and in the end the club would carry the cost.

Time based also means that the glider pilot can release any time he has a thermal so quite often a 4 to 5 minute aerotow is all that is required and costs the glider pilot about $14 USD. Most tows are around 8 minutes long (~2000 feet AGL) and cost about $23 USD (and I'm at one of the more expensive clubs in South Africa).

[[email protected]]

Surge it looks like its time for me to immigrate to south africa, here in the Southeast US I am paying around $40 for a 2k tow. Any top dressing (crop dusting) jobs down your way? If so I'll be packing my bags and shipping the old 1-26 your way.
Dan

[BruceGreeff]

There are definitely top dressing jobs going.

On 2016-03-09 13:13, wrote:
> Surge it looks like its time for me to immigrate to south africa, here in the Southeast US I am paying around $40 for a 2k tow. Any top dressing (crop dusting) jobs down your way? If so I'll be packing my bags and shipping the old 1-26 your way.
> Dan
>

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 9:57:57 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
> I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.
>
> My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.
>
> Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.
>
> I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

In our operation the line crew has the responsibility for safe and efficient launching. Being distracted by a phone function or such would lead, in my view to a potentially much less safe operation. Logging is another function.

[Giaco]

On Wednesday, March 9, 2016 at 5:48:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 9:57:57 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
> > I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.
> >
> > My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.
> >
> > Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.
> >
> > I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..
>
> In our operation the line crew has the responsibility for safe and efficient launching. Being distracted by a phone function or such would lead, in my view to a potentially much less safe operation. Logging is another function.
> During rush hour we are doing between 12 and 14 launches and hour, recovering those tugs, and recovering about 1/2 the gliders. with the line crew handling this there is not time for other stuff.
> In our operation it is up to the glider pilot to report tow altitude by radio, or provide to the log keeper after the flight. Failure to provide tow altitude generates a charge for a 5000 foot tow. It rarely happens.
> Old school operator
> UH

Hank, I'm not sure this would fundamentally challenge how you are operating if you already have a dedicated person logging... this would just make their life easier and cut down on radio chatter, as they could log the pilots as they are preparing for takeoff...unless I'm misunderstanding the responsibilities of your logger.

I think the benefit to this logging is probably greater for larger clubs and those with fast and efficient lines, as opposed to clubs with tow planes that sit on the ground idling for minutes at a time between tows.

It should be an interesting project, i'll report back after seeing if it ends up being a worthwhile endeavor for our club.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 9:57:57 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
> I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.
>
> My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.
>
> Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.
>
> I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

1) Consider the failure mode first. First, what if the bluetooth connections don't work? Second what happens if for some reason the tow simply doesn't record -for example, the system quits working for some reason. How does that get found out and how can it be corrected manually? You don't want the ground crew futzing with the automated logging system while gliders are waiting or engines are running.

2) The whole transmit back and forth process sounds slightly complex and requires sensors. Keep it simple. How about the app can scan a QR code or bar code through the built in camera? A QR code could be affixed to the window of the tow tug and glider but also duplicated on a clipboard on the golf cart for backup. Each pilot can be assigned a QR or bar code like you see on key fobs. Of course, pilots will forget their codes, so also include lookup as a possibility.

3) Record time or height? Line person can enter this manually. For operations that charge by altitude, it should be easy (1k, 2k, 3k checkbox). For time, enter it when the tug lands. Or have some kind of stopwatch function that allows entry of start and end of tow. Or simpler, since tow times are usually known by glider, just allow 4min, 5min, 6min to be entered.

4) If you want to add automation, if the tugs have ADS-B, use a receiver on the ground to get the data from the towplane and automatically enter it.