Double Release Failure on Tow

[Piet Barber]

I'm sure a few people here have practiced it... but I really need to know:

Has it ever actually happened? I mean, has there ever been a bona fide certified, verified example of both release hooks failing in flight? The glider can't release, the glider gives the signal, the tow plane can't release, gives the signal; both aircraft land in formation.

Has anybody ever heard of this actually happening? If so, how did it turn out? What was the proficiency level of the pilots who did this? Did anything get scratched or bent?

[Bill T]

Not heard of it happening for real. Maybe someone will know. Cindy?

Practice it, takes very precise flying by the tow pilot. Speed control and rate of descent control. Aim long or you're dragging the gliders through the weeds before the runway. Tow pilot does not brake unless he is running out of runway. Glider goes to low tow, keeps the rope tight with spoiler. Much easier in a draggy 2-33 than a Grob or K-21.

BillT

[Bill T]

Burt may know of any.

[son_of_flubber]

On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 8:38:16 PM UTC-4, Piet Barber wrote:
> I'm sure a few people here have practiced it... but I really need to know:
>
> Has it ever actually happened? I mean, has there ever been a bona fide certified, verified example of both release hooks failing in flight? The glider can't release, the glider gives the signal, the tow plane can't release, gives the signal; both aircraft land in formation.
>
> Has anybody ever heard of this actually happening? If so, how did it turn out? What was the proficiency level of the pilots who did this? Did anything get scratched or bent?

Has anyone ever had an accident while landing on tow?

Is breaking the rope a better option?

[[email protected]]

Consider this.
I had this actually happen to me.
I was performing a private pilot check ride in and ASK 21. When it came time time to release, the release mechanism jammed and failed to release.
No radio was installed at the time.
We initiated the glider can not release signal. The tow pilot assumed this was a simulated situation since we were conducting a flight test.
After repeating the maneuver several times the tow pilot assumed we should land on tow instead of cutting the rope!
The PA 25 tow plane has a retractable tow rope.
We made a successful landing and I wheeled the ASK 21 to the shop and installed a radio! And fixed the tow release.
Rex

[Bill T]

Thanks Rex! I guess the tow pilot failing to cut the rope is a "tow pilot release failure".
No radio in a glider, I carry a handheld.

BillT

[George Haeh]

A vigorous "Can Not
Release" signal has a
good probability of
breaking the weak link.

If you remember not to
release after breaking
the weak link, you can
use the Tost rings again.

[JS]

On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 8:00:08 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
> A vigorous "Can Not
> Release" signal has a
> good probability of
> breaking the weak link.
>
> If you remember not to
> release after breaking
> the weak link, you can
> use the Tost rings again.

But landing on tow is fun.
Jim

[[email protected][_1_]]

Not this again! Yer gonna die!

Seriously, after signals are exhanged, and within a very conservative glide of the field (like overhead) open the brakes, fly normal high tow position and wheel land. Use brakes sparingly to only keep the rope taught and not run over it. The odds of a tug being able to stop more rapidly than a glider are small, short of the tug ground looping or other wreckery.

L.O.T. used to be a pre-solo confidence building maneuver employed liberally at Skylark North, CA. An instructor demo touch-and-go followed by a student touch-and-go and then a full stop by the student. Very rare that the student needed anything other than some verbal coaching.

Oh, and what JS said, much fun, and the student confidence index soared!

Double release failure = statistical nonevent. Kind of like glider-glider midairs in the USA. Maybe we need auto-LOT technology coupled to our FLARM's in case we have a potential traffic conflict while LOT-ing?


But yer gonna die..... but probably not doing LOT's or in a glider-glider midair.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

When I did double release failure practice, we used the low tow position, fear on the high two was we would over run/fly the tow plane.

On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 9:21:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Not this again! Yer gonna die!
>
> Seriously, after signals are exhanged, and within a very conservative glide of the field (like overhead) open the brakes, fly normal high tow position and wheel land. Use brakes sparingly to only keep the rope taught and not run over it. The odds of a tug being able to stop more rapidly than a glider are small, short of the tug ground looping or other wreckery.
>
>

[Piet Barber]

> L.O.T. used to be a pre-solo confidence building maneuver employed liberally at Skylark North, CA. An instructor demo touch-and-go followed by a student touch-and-go and then a full stop by the student. Very rare that the student needed anything other than some verbal coaching.

Hmmm. Could 3 touch-and-go-on-tows be good enough for a 61.56 (nee biennial) flight review?

[Dan Marotta]

Ah, yes... When we ASSuME. I always brief with the DPE before a check
ride. Glad you made it ok!

On 3/27/2016 6:51 PM, wrote:
> Consider this.
> I had this actually happen to me.
> I was performing a private pilot check ride in and ASK 21. When it came time time to release, the release mechanism jammed and failed to release.
> No radio was installed at the time.
> We initiated the glider can not release signal. The tow pilot assumed this was a simulated situation since we were conducting a flight test.
> After repeating the maneuver several times the tow pilot assumed we should land on tow instead of cutting the rope!
> The PA 25 tow plane has a retractable tow rope.
> We made a successful landing and I wheeled the ASK 21 to the shop and installed a radio! And fixed the tow release.
> Rex

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 8:38:16 PM UTC-4, Piet Barber wrote:
> I'm sure a few people here have practiced it... but I really need to know:
>
> Has it ever actually happened? I mean, has there ever been a bona fide certified, verified example of both release hooks failing in flight? The glider can't release, the glider gives the signal, the tow plane can't release, gives the signal; both aircraft land in formation.
>
> Has anybody ever heard of this actually happening? If so, how did it turn out? What was the proficiency level of the pilots who did this? Did anything get scratched or bent?

Long ago at our club one of the instructors wanted to try out landing on tow.
Somehow they wound up breaking the rope anyway, at around 500 feet AGL and far
from the airport... No bent planes but bruised egos after the retrieve!

[AS]

> Hmmm. Could 3 touch-and-go-on-tows be good enough for a 61.56 (nee biennial) flight review? <

Used that method to get current again for the 90 day rule. I couldn't find any reference saying that these had to be full-stop landings.
Just coordinate it well with the tow pilot and let him know, that he cannot pull the power as he normally would do after the glider releases, if you are flying anything more slippery than a 2-33 or the tow plane becomes really big outside your canopy really fast!

Uli

[Bill T]

The FAA Glider Pilots Handbook recommends low tow position.
BillT

[ZZ]

I have done three of them (simulated, not real failures). Stay in high tow position and these are dead easy and fun. The probability of an actual occurrence? Whatever number is closest to zero.
Paul
ZZ

[BobW]

On 4/9/2016 8:12 AM, ZZ wrote:
> I have done three of them (simulated, not real failures). Stay in high tow
> position and these are dead easy and fun. The probability of an actual
> occurrence? Whatever number is closest to zero. Paul ZZ
>

Another topic worthy of more extended conversation???

Bruce Miller, the (now long) late glider FBO at Boulder, CO, used to regularly
demonstrate - and perhaps teach; I was never certain - landing on tow (one
natural outcome of a double release failure). His preferred approach was for
the glider (2-32) to land first, from low tow position, wait for the tug to
land, and then for the glider to do the (bulk of?) the braking. It usually
never took more than ~3/4 of the ~4,000' paved/gravel, 5300'msl, strip, with
two in the glider.

Did your simulated double release failures include landings? If so, could you
elaborate on the techniques used? Inquiring minds and all that...

Thanks!

Bob W.

[WAVEGURU]

I think we need to start practicing a lot more "possible" scenarios like actual bird strikes, landing with flat tires, actual fires in the cockpit, and take offs and landings while both pilots are testing or talking on their cell phones...

Boggs

[[email protected]]

Don't remember the details, but there was a double release failure at Calistoga, years ago. Sailplane couldn't release, so tow pilot pulled the gilitene (Sp?) but it had rusted and didn't sever the line. Next he (tow pilot), broke the mirror and took a piece of it and tried to reach around behind and cut that puppy manually!
I seem to remember the gyrations of the un-guided tow plane were so severe that the tow rope finally just broke its self.
Anyone remember more details on this one?
JJ

[Haven]

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 2:30:08 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Don't remember the details, but there was a double release failure at Calistoga, years ago. Sailplane couldn't release, so tow pilot pulled the gilitene (Sp?) but it had rusted and didn't sever the line. Next he (tow pilot), broke the mirror and took a piece of it and tried to reach around behind and cut that puppy manually!
> I seem to remember the gyrations of the un-guided tow plane were so severe that the tow rope finally just broke its self.
> Anyone remember more details on this one?
> JJ

We checked our guillotine and found the cable frozen in the housing.

[4881828]

On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 8:38:16 PM UTC-4, Piet Barber wrote:
> I'm sure a few people here have practiced it... but I really need to know:
>
> Has it ever actually happened? I mean, has there ever been a bona fide certified, verified example of both release hooks failing in flight? The glider can't release, the glider gives the signal, the tow plane can't release, gives the signal; both aircraft land in formation.
>
> Has anybody ever heard of this actually happening? If so, how did it turn out? What was the proficiency level of the pilots who did this? Did anything get scratched or bent?

Best way for most pilots is to do a Slack line and recovery.....and,,,The rope breaks...