(US) New Process for Student Pilot Certificate Issue

[Papa3[_2_]]

As I understand it, effective April 1 there is a new process for issuance of Student Pilot Certificates. Have any glider operations obtained clarification from their local FSDO or investigated the process on IACRA? I'm especially curious about how I (as a CFI-G) "accept" the application in the new process (see below table). Any insights or help appreciated, as we have a couple of folks who should be getting ready for solo by late Spring, and it looks like the new process could take a while to complete.

http://download.aopa.org/advocacy/160114_Student_Pilot_Certificates_Final_Rule_Chart .pdf?_ga=1.67855128.826946244.1457314625

[N97MT]

It is spelled out in the new Advisory Circular:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_61-65F.pdf

Also take a look at the RAS post "New Student Pilot Certificates". We did have our FSDO talk about this last weekend.

The AC spells it all out, but the CFI-G has to properly check among other things the applicant's ID and English language proficiency. He can always defer the application and the student to the FSDO or DPE if he feels it is too difficult for himself to call.

On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:22:18 AM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> As I understand it, effective April 1 there is a new process for issuance of Student Pilot Certificates. Have any glider operations obtained clarification from their local FSDO or investigated the process on IACRA? I'm especially curious about how I (as a CFI-G) "accept" the application in the new process (see below table). Any insights or help appreciated, as we have a couple of folks who should be getting ready for solo by late Spring, and it looks like the new process could take a while to complete.
>
> http://download.aopa.org/advocacy/160114_Student_Pilot_Certificates_Final_Rule_Chart .pdf?_ga=1.67855128.826946244.1457314625

[Papa3[_2_]]

I have read the AC and I have a student (adult) pending right now. I can see his application through IARCA but I can't do anything with it. I can view it, print it, or kick it back to him, but there's no action I can take to advance it. Maybe on April 1?

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 5:08:06 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:
> I have read the AC and I have a student (adult) pending right now. I can see his application through IARCA but I can't do anything with it. I can view it, print it, or kick it back to him, but there's no action I can take to advance it. Maybe on April 1?

Perhaps. From the looks of the AC all you have to do is follow the
"recommending instructor" process in IACRA and the student will get
their certificate in the mail 3 weeks later.

Has anyone tried this so far with students wanting to solo before age 16?

Matt

[Cookie]

Wouldn't that be age 14 for glider solo?


Cookie

On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:23:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 5:08:06 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:
> > I have read the AC and I have a student (adult) pending right now. I can see his application through IARCA but I can't do anything with it. I can view it, print it, or kick it back to him, but there's no action I can take to advance it. Maybe on April 1?
>
> Perhaps. From the looks of the AC all you have to do is follow the
> "recommending instructor" process in IACRA and the student will get
> their certificate in the mail 3 weeks later.
>
> Has anyone tried this so far with students wanting to solo before age 16?
>
> Matt

[Papa3[_2_]]

Yeah, I'm the "recommending instructor", but there's no action I can take to move it along. Unlike other times I've used IACRA (for instance recommending a student for a practical test). Wondering whether it will change on Friday; I'll wait and see.

[Bill T]

The new process does not start until 1 April. So even as recommending instructor, that action to certify the student pilot application cannot happen until 1 April.
This was a big discussion area in the Glider CFI Webinar last week.

BillT

[N97MT]

The changes take effect on April 1. The CFI will not be able to accept applications through IACRA until then or "move it along".

Until then your student can still go to an AME, DPE or to the FSDO to apply for and get a Student Pilot certificate on the spot.

After April 1 AMEs, DPEs and the FSDO will no longer be able to issue Student Pilot certificates. After April 1, CFIs, DPEs and the FDSO will be able to accept Student Pilot certificate applications, and the FAA in OKC will subsequently issue them through the mail.

On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:48:25 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> Yeah, I'm the "recommending instructor", but there's no action I can take to move it along. Unlike other times I've used IACRA (for instance recommending a student for a practical test). Wondering whether it will change on Friday; I'll wait and see.

[Piet Barber]

On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 8:48:25 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:
> Yeah, I'm the "recommending instructor", but there's no action I can take to move it along. Unlike other times I've used IACRA (for instance recommending a student for a practical test). Wondering whether it will change on Friday; I'll wait and see.

I am a DPE and CFI-G. I have one such situation unfolding TODAY. I have a student who is ready to do his first solo on his 14th birthday, TODAY. If his birthday happened to fall on 31 March instead of April 2nd, we would have all been celebrating the first solo of a pilot, whom I believe has the passion and skill to soar to great heights and distances.

Unfortunately, as of April 1st, the forces of security theater ( https://en..wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater ) have created a system that no longer allows solo flight on a student's 14th birthday. At least for the meantime.. I became aware of the potential situation in March 2015, and by October 2015, we were planning all sorts of potential workarounds.

I received the advice, "Just fill in the application early!" No-Can-Do:
IACRA: The IACRA system doesn't even allow somebody to begin an application until their 14th birthday.
Old-school-Paper: FAA Order 8900.1 states that the application can't happen until the 14th birthday. http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.5,Ch2,Sec6

This morning, I received an e-mail from my star student; he's filled in the application in IACRA. I've accepted it as a recommending instructor. I've viewed his ID, entered that into the system. I've delivered the Privacy Act and Pilots Bill of Rights. Now the paperwork goes off into the bureaucracy.. We'll see how long it takes for this star 14 year old to get his plastic certificate in the mail.

I'll keep you updated.

Signed, Frustrated

[N97MT]

Yup. Based on my experience with my daughter in IACRA almost two years ago, under the old rules, it was pretty clear to me that this would happen. See RAS post "New Student Pilot certificates".

All they need to do is change the IACRA app to allow Student Pilot application dates up to x number of days before first solo and endorse the certificate "NOT VALID UNTIL (age eligibility date)".

Curious to hear what the actual turnaround time will be. FAA says 3 weeks. I don't believe it yet.

[Robert Ballou]

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-7, N97MT wrote:
> Yup. Based on my experience with my daughter in IACRA almost two years ago, under the old rules, it was pretty clear to me that this would happen. See RAS post "New Student Pilot certificates".
>
> All they need to do is change the IACRA app to allow Student Pilot application dates up to x number of days before first solo and endorse the certificate "NOT VALID UNTIL (age eligibility date)".
>
> Curious to hear what the actual turnaround time will be. FAA says 3 weeks.. I don't believe it yet.

Your idea is a good one ("Not valid until . . ."). It seems to me that the solution is an easy one. The requirements for solo are student pilot certificate in hand (Not valid until . . .), 14 years of age or older, self certifying medical, AND A CFIG ENDORSEMENT. The student must have all 4 to solo. I sense this may be a control issue and the FAA not trusting the CFI's with the responsibility and authority they earned. What is not so simple is to get the FAA to go along with this so the certificates can be processed in time for that 14th birthday celebration.

[IA DPE]

>I sense this may be a control issue and the FAA not trusting the CFI's with the responsibility and authority >they earned. What is not so simple is to get the FAA to go along with this so the certificates can be >processed in time for that 14th birthday celebration.

"You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity" Robert Heinlein

This new requirement is a result of 9/11- it just took this long for the FAA to get around to it. I suspect that no one in the FAA gave any thought to 14 yr olds soloing gliders- they're so used to power pilots soloing at 16, and very few on their birthday.

Hopefully a work around can be reached.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sunday, April 3, 2016 at 9:47:40 AM UTC-6, Robert Ballou wrote:
> On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 4:06:09 PM UTC-7, N97MT wrote:
> > Yup. Based on my experience with my daughter in IACRA almost two years ago, under the old rules, it was pretty clear to me that this would happen. See RAS post "New Student Pilot certificates".
> >
> > All they need to do is change the IACRA app to allow Student Pilot application dates up to x number of days before first solo and endorse the certificate "NOT VALID UNTIL (age eligibility date)".
> >
> > Curious to hear what the actual turnaround time will be. FAA says 3 weeks. I don't believe it yet.
>
> Your idea is a good one ("Not valid until . . ."). It seems to me that the solution is an easy one. The requirements for solo are student pilot certificate in hand (Not valid until . . .), 14 years of age or older, self certifying medical, AND A CFIG ENDORSEMENT. The student must have all 4 to solo. I sense this may be a control issue and the FAA not trusting the CFI's with the responsibility and authority they earned. What is not so simple is to get the FAA to go along with this so the certificates can be processed in time for that 14th birthday celebration.

Robert. I think you have it reversed, the solution is simple, not easy. Like weight loss, just eat less and exercise more, simple, but not easy;^).



So the FAA has IACRA. Presumably it resulted from a competitive bid contract and had multiple revisions in the specification and rewrites. Changing the student application dates for both glider and power students in the database schema is probably doable at a co$t. I see the rule and a correction were published in the Federal Register in January and February. See
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2016/01/12/2016-00199/student-pilot-application-requirements.

Fund$ for modifications and oversights may or may not be in the budget. The SSA is hot on the heels of the AOPA request. I hope that it is seen as important to those who had oversight and lacked the insight to include this in the initial schema. I hope both are seen as the same request, just different ages and categories. We'll see. I'm hoping for a positive outcome.

Frank Whiteley

[Papa3[_2_]]

Update. Seems to be working. Turns out the student had missed something in the application. Fixed it and I now have actions to complete and submit. Student forgot his IACRA password today, so we didn't wrap up at the field.. But, as soon as we are both logged in it looks like it should work.

[N97MT]

Please keep us posted on the turnaround time from application to certificate receipt in the mail.

I just got another Ground Instructor certificate. That one took 4 weeks from acceptance at the FSDO to receipt in the mail.

[Bob Faris]

On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 6:22:18 AM UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
> As I understand it, effective April 1 there is a new process for issuance of Student Pilot Certificates. Have any glider operations obtained clarification from their local FSDO or investigated the process on IACRA? I'm especially curious about how I (as a CFI-G) "accept" the application in the new process (see below table). Any insights or help appreciated, as we have a couple of folks who should be getting ready for solo by late Spring, and it looks like the new process could take a while to complete.
>
> http://download.aopa.org/advocacy/160114_Student_Pilot_Certificates_Final_Rule_Chart .pdf?_ga=1.67855128.826946244.14573146

Two weeks ago my student submitted an application for a certificate and just received it yesterday. So, at least in this case, the process worked well.
Bob Faris

[Papa3[_2_]]

I was able to complete a student pilot application yesterday. Student and instructor have to be able to log in at the same time. The AC is helpful, as it spells out the various stuff you both have to do and accept. Bottom line - the clock started running at about noon yesterday. I'll update the group when the Student Pilot certificate shows up.

p3

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 5:22:18 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
> As I understand it, effective April 1 there is a new process for issuance of Student Pilot Certificates.

We got one in hand here in two weeks from the time of IACRA completion. I guess FAA doesn't want to take too much more flack on this one . . . . it's working.

Cindy B
in Santa Ynez many weekends and
doing six weeks of kid solo camps this summer !

[Papa3[_2_]]

As of friday the status changed from Pending to something like Registry - DOCS Complete. So, two weeks out and stuff is happening. No student certificate in hand yet though...

[[email protected]]

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 9:04:43 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
> As of friday the status changed from Pending to something like Registry - DOCS Complete. So, two weeks out and stuff is happening. No student certificate in hand yet though...

When did it finally arrive?

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 12:53:32 PM UTC-5, Vince LaDuca wrote:
> On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 9:04:43 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
> > As of friday the status changed from Pending to something like Registry - DOCS Complete. So, two weeks out and stuff is happening. No student certificate in hand yet though...
>
> When did it finally arrive?

I think we had the certificate in hand in about 4 weeks end-to-end. Subsequent ones have been a little faster.