Re: Towing with VW Bora diesel?

[Gerritjan]

> Many pilots here use petrol-guzzling sport-utility vehicles to tow their
> trailers. I'm trying to get some input as to whether my new VW Jetta
> turbo-diesel is up to the task.

You forgot to tell us the weight of your trailer incl.discus...

I'm towing a trailer, total weight 780 kg, with a VW-caddy TDI 66kW, max.
trailer weight 1000 kg. according the manual. Empty weight of the car is
1140 kg.
Great combination, more than enough power.


GJ

PS
kg --> lbs or lbs --> kg
http://www.dhl-usa.com/lbs-2-kilo

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:05:24 GMT, "Biggus_Discus"
> wrote:

>Do any of our European friends out there have any experience towing a glider
>trailer with a VW Bora diesel?
>
>Many pilots here use petrol-guzzling sport-utility vehicles to tow their
>trailers. I'm trying to get some input as to whether my new VW Jetta
>turbo-diesel is up to the task.

Using a 90 hp Golf Combi TDI myself to tow any trailer (from Ka-8 to
DG-505) without any performance problems I'm pretty sure that you'll
do ok too.

Bye
Andreas

[Greg Arnold]

Wow, a Golf to tow a DG-505. How fast can you go before swaying becomes a
problem?


> Using a 90 hp Golf Combi TDI myself to tow any trailer (from Ka-8 to
> DG-505) without any performance problems I'm pretty sure that you'll
> do ok too.
>
> Bye
> Andreas

[Herbert Kilian]

I had a Jetta TDI for 2 years here in the US and have been towing
glider trailers not with the Jetta but with a Mercedes 200D with only
72HP. The Merc had to be driven hard (throttle position either idle
or full) but very possible to keep up with traffic. Driving the Jetta
I always thought how much fun it would be to tow a trailer with it, so
much more torque at much less weight than the Mercedes. Put a hitch on
it and go places!
I'm now one of the guys you mention with an SUV that guzzles gas and
NEVER needs full throttle!
Herb, J7

"Biggus_Discus" > wrote in message news:<UXV1b.238721$o%2.108591@sccrnsc02>...
> Do any of our European friends out there have any experience towing a glider
> trailer with a VW Bora diesel?
>
> Many pilots here use petrol-guzzling sport-utility vehicles to tow their
> trailers. I'm trying to get some input as to whether my new VW Jetta
> turbo-diesel is up to the task.

[Ulrich Neumann]

"Biggus_Discus" > wrote in message news:<UXV1b.238721$o%2.108591@sccrnsc02>...
> Do any of our European friends out there have any experience towing a glider
> trailer with a VW Bora diesel?
>
> Many pilots here use petrol-guzzling sport-utility vehicles to tow their
> trailers. I'm trying to get some input as to whether my new VW Jetta
> turbo-diesel is up to the task.

You have to keep in mind that a VW Bora sold today in Europe has a
much more advanced enging/fuel management system than the ones sold in
the good old US of A. You can only get the 90HP (67kW) engine here,
while the engines sold in Europe have either 74kW (100HP) or 96kW
(128HP) in the TDI-PD version... (PD=Pumpe-Düse or one injector pump
unit per cylinder) A quick check on the german VW site lists the
towing capacity at 1500kg (3527lbs) for trailers with a surge brake
and 600kg (1322lbs) without brake.
Also, VW-US discourages using their vehicles for towing. They will not
sell you the original VW tow hitch available in Europe.
I guess as long as your trailer has a surge brake and you are not
running up steep hills in CO, you should be fine using the Jetta.

Ulrich Neumann
Diesel Head

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:54:56 -0700, "Greg Arnold"
> wrote:

>Wow, a Golf to tow a DG-505. How fast can you go before swaying becomes a
>problem?

125 - 130 kp/h is still absolutely unproblematic (even when overtaking
trucks) - I assume that the maximum is in the 140 kp/h region with my
car (we are using a relatively light self-made steel-frame trailer).

I'm driving the latest model of the Golf Variant which is relatively
heavy (1367 kg).

It depends on the trailer - our ASK-21 trailer of similar weight and
dimensions is significantly more problematic - 100 kp/h is the
absolute maximum with this trailer.

Bye
Andreas

[Bert Willing]

Just came back from a business trip to the US (fiddeling around with rental
cars). You can't compare US cars to European standards if it comes to
suspension. On my Saab 9-3 with a Komet trailer, I put the cruise control to
135 kph and I'm not at the limits. With a Chevy Malibu (which should have
the same weight and engine size as my Saab), I would never ever tow my
glider.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Andreas Maurer" > a écrit dans le message de
...
> On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:54:56 -0700, "Greg Arnold"
> > wrote:
>
> >Wow, a Golf to tow a DG-505. How fast can you go before swaying becomes
a
> >problem?
>
> 125 - 130 kp/h is still absolutely unproblematic (even when overtaking
> trucks) - I assume that the maximum is in the 140 kp/h region with my
> car (we are using a relatively light self-made steel-frame trailer).
>
> I'm driving the latest model of the Golf Variant which is relatively
> heavy (1367 kg).
>
> It depends on the trailer - our ASK-21 trailer of similar weight and
> dimensions is significantly more problematic - 100 kp/h is the
> absolute maximum with this trailer.
>
> Bye
> Andreas

[Andreas Maurer]

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:38:14 +0200, "Bert Willing"
> wrote:

>Just came back from a business trip to the US (fiddeling around with rental
>cars). You can't compare US cars to European standards if it comes to
>suspension. On my Saab 9-3 with a Komet trailer, I put the cruise control to
>135 kph and I'm not at the limits. With a Chevy Malibu (which should have
>the same weight and engine size as my Saab), I would never ever tow my
>glider.

Indeed - US cars usually have a much softer suspension. Do you know if
the US models of European cars also have a different suspension than
their European brothers?



Bye
Andreas

[JohnH]

Gerritjan wrote:
>>Many pilots here use petrol-guzzling sport-utility vehicles to tow their
>>trailers. I'm trying to get some input as to whether my new VW Jetta
>>turbo-diesel is up to the task.
>
>
> You forgot to tell us the weight of your trailer incl.discus...
>
> I'm towing a trailer, total weight 780 kg, with a VW-caddy TDI 66kW, max.
> trailer weight 1000 kg. according the manual. Empty weight of the car is
> 1140 kg.
> Great combination, more than enough power.
>
>
> GJ

You can check VW's information...for example, I'm not supposed to tow
more than 2000lbs with my Subie Outback...

john

[Janusz Kesik]

A bit offtopic then... :) If I was living in the US, is it possible to =
order a new e.g. VW Golf, but in the European version?

Regards,

JK


> Indeed - US cars usually have a much softer suspension. Do you know if
> the US models of European cars also have a different suspension than
> their European brothers?

[Buck Wild]

> You have to keep in mind that a VW Bora sold today in Europe has a
> much more advanced enging/fuel management system than the ones sold in
> the good old US of A. You can only get the 90HP (67kW) engine here,
> while the engines sold in Europe have either 74kW (100HP) or 96kW
> (128HP) in the TDI-PD version... (PD=Pumpe-Düse or one injector pump
> unit per cylinder)
> Ulrich Neumann
> Diesel Head

Yes, but they won't ship them here, as they are incompatible with
sulpher ppm above 50, and US is upwards of 500ppm.
I am very pleased with the power increase with the Upsolute software.
My automatic wagon will now spin it's wheels & pulls hard to redline @
130mph (Death Valley) Power is now approx 115hp and over 200LbFt,
milage unchanged, low to mid 40's
More info here...
www.tdiclub.com/
www.upsolute.com/
Dan

[JohnH]

Janusz Kesik wrote:
> A bit offtopic then... :) If I was living in the US, is it possible to order a new e.g. VW Golf, but in the European version?
>
> Regards,
>
> JK
>
>
>
>>Indeed - US cars usually have a much softer suspension. Do you know if
>>the US models of European cars also have a different suspension than
>>their European brothers?
>
>
>

I don't understand why they would produce two different versions....off
the Topic even further...Germany limits the BMW K1200 motorcycle to
100hp, but the US model is unrestricted at 129hp, but this is done
without changing major parts..But the VW in Europe to be so radically
different makes no economic sense to me.

john

[Doug Hoffman]

"Janusz Kesik" > wrote in message >...
> A bit offtopic then... :) If I was living in the US, is it possible to
> order a new e.g. VW Golf, but in the European version?

Anything is possible. But it would be very expensive. There would be
mandatory safety and possibly emissions modifications that would have
to be made among other things. You would need acceptable passive
restraints, for example, such as air bags or motorized seat belts
(just to name a couple of items). Even if your "import" had such
features you would need proof that they met US standards. An
engineeriing analysis might suffice, but it wouuld cost you for that.
You may need modifications to the emissions system and likely even
have to run an actual emissions test or two or three... They ain't
cheap. But there are small firms that do this knd of work and will
gladly take your money to make your "import" legal for use in the US
of A.

Sorry to deliver depressing news. The automakers even have to build
two different kinds of emissions systems, in many cases, right here in
the US depending which state the vehicle is going to (California and
some north east states get a unique emissions package, in many cases).

-Doug

[Tom Seim]

> European turbo diesels are very performant compared to their size (for tax
> and petrol price reasons)

You should NEVER use a turbo for towing. Turbos are only ment for
intermittent operation - towing puts them into near continuous
operation, leading to premature failure.

Of course there will be those that disregard this claiming they have
never had a problem (you never do until you do).

[JohnH]

Doug Hoffman wrote:
> "Janusz Kesik" > wrote in message >...
>
>>A bit offtopic then... :) If I was living in the US, is it possible to
>>order a new e.g. VW Golf, but in the European version?
snip...
> Sorry to deliver depressing news. The automakers even have to build
> two different kinds of emissions systems, in many cases, right here in
> the US depending which state the vehicle is going to (California and
> some north east states get a unique emissions package, in many cases).
>
> -Doug

Hmmm, not depressing to me, I only drive trucks, not SUV's, 4x4 4 door
Trucks....;>

john

[Andreas Maurer]

On 25 Aug 2003 21:13:15 -0700, (Tom Seim) wrote:

>> European turbo diesels are very performant compared to their size (for tax
>> and petrol price reasons)
>
>You should NEVER use a turbo for towing. Turbos are only ment for
>intermittent operation - towing puts them into near continuous
>operation, leading to premature failure.

.... not any Turbo Diesel that I know of.
Bye
Andreas

[Simon Waddell]

Nonsense - most of the trucks in the World are turbo diesels. I towed for
years with a Saab turbo (petrol) and never had a problem. Diesel turbos are
recommended for towing in Europe.


"Tom Seim" > wrote in message
om...
> > European turbo diesels are very performant compared to their size (for
tax
> > and petrol price reasons)
>
> You should NEVER use a turbo for towing. Turbos are only ment for
> intermittent operation - towing puts them into near continuous
> operation, leading to premature failure.
>
> Of course there will be those that disregard this claiming they have
> never had a problem (you never do until you do).

[root]

Tom Seim wrote:
>
> > European turbo diesels are very performant compared to their size (for tax
> > and petrol price reasons)
>
> You should NEVER use a turbo for towing. Turbos are only ment for
> intermittent operation - towing puts them into near continuous
> operation, leading to premature failure.
>
> Of course there will be those that disregard this claiming they have
> never had a problem (you never do until you do).

This doesn't match my experience, nor what I heard about that. I owned 10-15
years ago a Renault R11 with a turbo (petrol), the turbo died after about
75000 km, the nest one survived a little longer (~ 100000 km) then I replaced
the car rather than the turbo. The man who replaced the first turbo said I
was lucky as they rather fail after 50000 km. I used the car mostly at maximum
speed since most of my usage was on highways and almost never in towns. Somebody
explained to me that what kills turbos is stopping and starting the car rather
than using it. This, according to this person, is due to the way they are
lubricated. No oil can stand the temperature found in a working turbo, so
the only way to keep them lubricated is to make a constant flow of oil trough
them which is cooled outside so the temperature never reach the temperature
of the turbo. But when you stop it the temperature is still high and there is
no more flow, so the remaining oil is cooked and produces a solid residue. This
residue is broken at the next start, causing friction and wear at this time.
I don't kown if this is a valid explanation, but it is consistent with the
life time of my both turbos, as well as the way they died, i.e. wear of the
bearings.

[Bert Willing]

I tow with Saab turbos ever since, and when I'm driving up the Nufenen pass
(8000ft) with the Calif (2400lbs) I use every single hp and I'm pretty often
at 5000rpm.

No problems whatsoever. Turbos have come along quite some way since their
introduction. My last Saab had still the first turbo and was doing fine
after 350'000km when I decided that a car with CD player and ABS would be
nice.

For Andreas - the BMW 5 and 3 I've been driving in the US felt pretty much
the same as in Europe.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Tom Seim" > a écrit dans le message de
om...
> > European turbo diesels are very performant compared to their size (for
tax
> > and petrol price reasons)
>
> You should NEVER use a turbo for towing. Turbos are only ment for
> intermittent operation - towing puts them into near continuous
> operation, leading to premature failure.
>
> Of course there will be those that disregard this claiming they have
> never had a problem (you never do until you do).

[Bruce Greeff]

Two turbo vehicles later (one petrol one diesel) I must differ.

The turbo diesel vehicles are designed for long hard use and it is not
uncommon for them to last longer than you would want (My brother's SAAB
9-5 was replaced in mint condition at 260,000km).

If turbochargers were unsuitable for hard continuous use surely the
heavy truck fleet and construction vehicles would use a different
technology.

Where I live we have had some problems with turbocharger related failures.

in the late 1990s we had a spate of Isuzu 2.8L turbo diesels with blown
piston crowns, generally caused by aftermarket kits to increase the
maximum boost pressure - you get what you pay for. Make it possible to
overstress your engine, then drive at overboost for extended periods and
something will break. Factory standard engines regularly get 500,000km
making them very popular with the farmers.

BMW 320Ds with failed turbines - the upgraded engine introduced in 2001
had an engine management map that allowed the turbine inlet temperature
to go too high in our hot and high environment.(30+ centigrade @ 5000"
MSL) Coupled to our long open roads and their drivers habit of driving
for hours at full throttle and the little turbine wheels melted. One
electronic change and a cooling system upgrade and the failures stopped.
All handled under warranty.

Second hand European and Japanese imports with corroded injectors and
fuel pumps - this was a problem before 2002 when low sulphur fuel became
available. The jungle juice we had before had far too much sulphur and
some private imports died. The turbo models died quicker because of
higher temperatires I suspect. Again - ignore the manufacturers
specifications and problems are likely - if the manufacturer does not
offer the model locally there might be a reason.

For what it is worth my Isuzu 2.8l Turbo diesel was the best tow vehicle
I have ever owned. Pity it was stolen.

[Ulrich]

I have a 2003 VW TDI Jetta wagon and have been towing my Cobra trailer
and ASW-24 with it this summer. I can only say that it is a very good
towing combination. 120km/hr is no problem at all, even with the
trailer, 4 people and luggage. Of course, it does not accelerate like
a v8 SUV would but then it also doesn't burn gas like one either. My
fuel economy is still close to 50 mpg (imperial gallons) with the
trailer. The handling is great and the car and trailer are very stable
even in cross winds. Braking is no problem with the 4 wheel disk
brakes and the surge brakes on the trailer. Canadian diesel fuel is
also normally of good quality so I have not had any problems with
that. The key to longevity with this turbo is to use the best possible
synthetic motor oil. Esso Delvac 1 and Petrocan Duron are two high
quality brands which will ensure long turbo and engine life.
I have towed with many different vehicles over my 30+ year gliding
career and can honestly say that the VW Jetta TDI is one of the best,
with the possible exception of all-out acceleration.

Ulli Werneburg
ASW-24 "MZ"

(Buck Wild) wrote in message >...
> > You have to keep in mind that a VW Bora sold today in Europe has a
> > much more advanced enging/fuel management system than the ones sold in
> > the good old US of A. You can only get the 90HP (67kW) engine here,
> > while the engines sold in Europe have either 74kW (100HP) or 96kW
> > (128HP) in the TDI-PD version... (PD=Pumpe-Düse or one injector pump
> > unit per cylinder)
> > Ulrich Neumann
> > Diesel Head
>
> Yes, but they won't ship them here, as they are incompatible with
> sulpher ppm above 50, and US is upwards of 500ppm.
> I am very pleased with the power increase with the Upsolute software.
> My automatic wagon will now spin it's wheels & pulls hard to redline @
> 130mph (Death Valley) Power is now approx 115hp and over 200LbFt,
> milage unchanged, low to mid 40's
> More info here...
> www.tdiclub.com/
> www.upsolute.com/
> Dan

[Ulrich Neumann]

(Buck Wild) wrote in message >...
> > You have to keep in mind that a VW Bora sold today in Europe has a
> > much more advanced enging/fuel management system than the ones sold in
> > the good old US of A. You can only get the 90HP (67kW) engine here,
> > while the engines sold in Europe have either 74kW (100HP) or 96kW
> > (128HP) in the TDI-PD version... (PD=Pumpe-Düse or one injector pump
> > unit per cylinder)
> > Ulrich Neumann
> > Diesel Head
>
> Yes, but they won't ship them here, as they are incompatible with
> sulpher ppm above 50, and US is upwards of 500ppm.
> I am very pleased with the power increase with the Upsolute software.
> My automatic wagon will now spin it's wheels & pulls hard to redline @
> 130mph (Death Valley) Power is now approx 115hp and over 200LbFt,
> milage unchanged, low to mid 40's
> More info here...
> www.tdiclub.com/
> www.upsolute.com/
> Dan


Dan,

check the tdiclub site. They seem to know that the VW tdi-pd's are
coming in 2004, together with the reintroduced Passat tdi(pd I hope).
Guess I start saving my pennies and get in line!
Thanks for the link to upsolute. I will look into this option for my
Jetta tdi.

Ulrich Neumann