CCSC Landing Accident?

[Paul Agnew]

Downwind landing took out an L-23 and a Pawnee? Details?

Nothing posted on the Ceasar Creek Soaring facebook page,yet, but I did see a picture on another page.

Paul A.
Jupiter, FL

[Bill T]

Someone mentioned that on another posting, not on R.A.S., but no details.
Sounds like someone lost control landing downwind and took out the second aircraft?

I presume that details are being withheld pending insurance, NTSB, and FSDO investigation.
Looking forward to reading the reports in a few months.
BillT

[Paul Agnew]

It looks like the Pawnee landed downwind and plowed into an L-23 that was staged. Right wing of the Blanick is mangled and the fuselage is creased behind the cockpit. The Pawnee hit it nearly nose-to-nose just to the right of the cockpit based on the one photo I saw on Facebook. Pawnee prop is curled.

How do you do that on such a wide field in a powered plane that can go-around?

[Bill T]

They must have pulled the picture, I don't see it in FB now.

Why land downwind, our Pawnee hates Downwind landing, even if it's only 3-5 knts.
BillT

[[email protected]]

Yes another highly preventable accident, thankfully no one hurt, just embarisment and higher insurance rates.

As for the Pawnee, probably the easiest most docile large engine taildragger there is. I find most guys who have never experienced their ability as sprayers (99% of tow pilots) land them way too fast, and as a result wheel land. The Pawnee will three point incredibly docilely and with very low energy. There is no need to come scalding in at 80mph as I've many doing.

In the dusting business we almost every day have to deal with downwind landings as we many times work off of one way runways. First few times better pay attention. After doing a bunch of them, its really no big deal as long as your paying attention! Landing in up to 10mph tailwind very routine. Very accurate speed control vital and keeping the energy real low. The pawnee I've worked in 15 mph quartering tailwinds, but it necessitated not being gusty and bringing her in slow and three pointing, dont even think about wheeling her on in those condx unless you have gobs of runway (we had 1600 ft).

The problems arise when a guy DOESNT KNOW he is landing downwind. That's when things can get interesting real fast. When we work off of new runways or fields we always set up white 8 ft pvc pipes with multiple fluorescent flagging at both ends and the middle of the strip. It really helps to know exactly what the wind is doing on T/O roll with a heavy load and on short final. This can help signal a thermal coming across the runway etc.
Dan

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 1:09:11 AM UTC+3, wrote:
> Yes another highly preventable accident, thankfully no one hurt, just embarisment and higher insurance rates.
>
> As for the Pawnee, probably the easiest most docile large engine taildragger there is. I find most guys who have never experienced their ability as sprayers (99% of tow pilots) land them way too fast, and as a result wheel land. The Pawnee will three point incredibly docilely and with very low energy. There is no need to come scalding in at 80mph as I've many doing.
>
> In the dusting business we almost every day have to deal with downwind landings as we many times work off of one way runways. First few times better pay attention. After doing a bunch of them, its really no big deal as long as your paying attention! Landing in up to 10mph tailwind very routine. Very accurate speed control vital and keeping the energy real low. The pawnee I've worked in 15 mph quartering tailwinds, but it necessitated not being gusty and bringing her in slow and three pointing, dont even think about wheeling her on in those condx unless you have gobs of runway (we had 1600 ft).
>
> The problems arise when a guy DOESNT KNOW he is landing downwind. That's when things can get interesting real fast. When we work off of new runways or fields we always set up white 8 ft pvc pipes with multiple fluorescent flagging at both ends and the middle of the strip. It really helps to know exactly what the wind is doing on T/O roll with a heavy load and on short final. This can help signal a thermal coming across the runway etc.
> Dan

Looking at the sock at 1:10 this guy has a good 10 knots tailwind when landing. Doesn't seem to bother him.

http://youtu.be/loy2n8s_l00

Those things are pretty much all converted to turbine now, of course (or replaced by bigger turbine models carrying 2 tonnes instead of 1). I loved the crackle of those old 400 HP beasts.

http://youtu.be/lO3nAB5Zz8

On a gliding note: those concrete fertalizer bunkers are good to spot. You're probably never more than 10 km from one, you know the place is landable (and has truck access), and the bunker is always at the high end of the strip...

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Hope the people are OK, while it's a PITA, bent stuff can be fixed.

[son_of_flubber]

A disheartening repeat. A similar towplane-glider collision occurred Fall 2014. In that case, the towplane landed downwind due to noise abatement agreement.

The Pawnee can land extremely short. Seems like you should have a really good reason to land downwind.

[son_of_flubber]

On Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 8:03:41 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:

> http://youtu.be/lO3nAB5Zz8

Bad link in the USA

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
, son_of_flubber says...
>
> On Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 8:03:41 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
> > http://youtu.be/lO3nAB5Zz8
>
> Bad link in the USA

Even in NZ! :)

--
Duncan.

[Tony[_5_]]

Was the one your thinking of in Georgia at a CAP camp?

There was also a nose over on a downwind landing at the Seniors a few years ago wasn't there?

[Bill T]

So sorry to hear about loss of control landing accidents. Especially when metal gets bent.
And now an engine teardown.
Landing on grass is very forgiving, quartering tailwinds not withstanding.
Landing on gravel, tires will slide, landing on pavement, no forgiveness for not paying attention.

We have pavement.

The one crop duster video, tailwind landing uphill, was a nose dragger, no real comparison, except for landing an minimum speed.

I agree the Pawnee does not like being "forced to land" at speeds above 60. I've also witnessed instant landings, 3 point, in a small tailwind when the wind decides it's done flying. Busy feet needed.

Sorry to loose another great 2 seat trainer, in an environment that not many are built.
I wonder what it would take for Blanik to restart production on the L-23.

BillT

[Tony[_5_]]

You can buy new L-23s right now. The L-23NG I think is what it is called. New company took over. They were at the SSA Convention.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 2:53:56 PM UTC+12, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 8:03:41 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
> > http://youtu.be/lO3nAB5Zz8
>
> Bad link in the USA

Dammit. This cutting the URLs down business is error-prone. Missed an _

http://youtu.be/_lO3nAB5Zz8

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 3:40:37 PM UTC+12, Bill T wrote:
> The one crop duster video, tailwind landing uphill, was a nose dragger, no real comparison, except for landing an minimum speed.

Yes. The New Zealand ag scene has been absolutely dominated by tricycle undercarriage planes since the early 60s (at least). Primarily of course by the Fletcher FU24 series (as in the two videos I've posted), but also in the 60s/early 70s the Bennett/Transavia Airtruk. There are a handful of Ag Cat, Ag Wagon and of course Pawnee but they are vastly outnumbered.

I don't know, but my impression is tail draggers are more popular in Australia.

[Michael Opitz]

At 03:54 25 April 2016, Tony wrote:
>You can buy new L-23s right now. The L-23NG I think is what it is
called.
>New company took over. They were at the SSA Convention.

How much will they cost?

[Eric Munk]

http://www.blanik.aero/

[kirk.stant]

On Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 9:51:01 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> A disheartening repeat. A similar towplane-glider collision occurred Fall 2014. In that case, the towplane landed downwind due to noise abatement agreement.
>
> The Pawnee can land extremely short. Seems like you should have a really good reason to land downwind.

As others have stated, it's really no big deal to land downwind in light winds. And there is a really good reason for doing it, as long as it can be done safely: efficient towing.

The whole point of aerotowing it to maximize launches. And landing downwind (or opposite traffic, if the wind is L & V or a crosswind) makes for an efficient operation - if done intelligently and the airfield configuration and traffic is suited to it.

I could argue that landing the towplane downwind is actually the SAFEST way to operate a towplane, especially on a single runway.

Of course, you do have to know how to fly your plane - and always follow the maxim that if you are going to crash, hit the softest, least expensive thing at the lowest speed possible...

Kirk

[Dan Marotta]

Notice the 500' wide Taxiway D at Moriarty Municipal Airport
,583m/data=%213m1%211e3>.
Tow plane lands into the wind, taxis past glider staged on the taxiway,
rope is hooked up and tow is underway. During contests, 40+ gliders are
staged on the taxiway and one of 5 tow planes taxis past, glider is
pushed onto the runway, other tow planes are landing behind (approx
2,500' from threshold to staging point), it runs like a well-oiled
machine. No need for downwind landings.


On 4/25/2016 9:22 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 9:51:01 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> A disheartening repeat. A similar towplane-glider collision occurred Fall 2014. In that case, the towplane landed downwind due to noise abatement agreement.
>>
>> The Pawnee can land extremely short. Seems like you should have a really good reason to land downwind.
> As others have stated, it's really no big deal to land downwind in light winds. And there is a really good reason for doing it, as long as it can be done safely: efficient towing.
>
> The whole point of aerotowing it to maximize launches. And landing downwind (or opposite traffic, if the wind is L & V or a crosswind) makes for an efficient operation - if done intelligently and the airfield configuration and traffic is suited to it.
>
> I could argue that landing the towplane downwind is actually the SAFEST way to operate a towplane, especially on a single runway.
>
> Of course, you do have to know how to fly your plane - and always follow the maxim that if you are going to crash, hit the softest, least expensive thing at the lowest speed possible...
>
> Kirk

--
Dan, 5J

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 11:22:41 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:

> Of course, you do have to know how to fly your plane

This is another one of those cases where the maneuver is perfectly safe if you have the currency/proficiency to do it, and you're not having a bad day, and the wind cooperates.

In some scenarios, downwind-towplane-landing launches more gliders more quickly, or it is the only practical solution, or it is the safest solution with all factors considered. But I doubt that it is always more productive, safer, or necessary.

Wherever possible, the consequences of the most likely (and apparently common) pilot error should be minimal.

[Giaco]

20 Posts, 500+ views, a whole host of opinions and suggestions, but no actual information other than that a towplane was landing downwind.

Perhaps for once we could give the wild speculation and baseless determination of fault a rest... until some information is actually released.

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 12:44:27 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
> 20 Posts, 500+ views, a whole host of opinions and suggestions, but no actual information other than that a towplane was landing downwind.
>
> Perhaps for once we could give the wild speculation and baseless determination of fault a rest... until some information is actually released.

What's the fun in that!

It's a time honored tradition for pilots to critique other pilots actions - good or bad.

And sometimes, a kernel of interesting information emerges...

Kirk
66

PS: Who had his first landout of the season yesterday - nice smooth field 20 miles from home. When the passerby's asked "what happened, wind quit?" (yes they really do ask that), could honestly answer "No, ran out of skill!" - since my buddies made it home.

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 12:29:55 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> This is another one of those cases where the maneuver is perfectly safe if you have the currency/proficiency to do it, and you're not having a bad day, and the wind cooperates.

That pretty much describes all of aviation - what's your point?


> In some scenarios, downwind-towplane-landing launches more gliders more quickly, or it is the only practical solution, or it is the safest solution with all factors considered. But I doubt that it is always more productive, safer, or necessary.

Duh. Just about everything in aviation is highly situational - when the wind is strong or there is lots of other traffic, downwind landings are obviously not the way to go. Again, what's your point?


> Wherever possible, the consequences of the most likely (and apparently common) pilot error should be minimal.

Gee, if you prevent the pilot from getting into the cockpit, you would totally minimize the consequence of the most likely pilot error - committing aviation. Since most accidents seem to happen in the pattern, perhaps we just shouldn't fly patterns!

Wherever possible, pilots should be well trained and aware of their skill level and capabilities, and fly accordingly. Unless you have a lot of experience flying a variety of towplanes at a variety of sites in a variety of conditions, pontificating about safety is a bit much.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 at 6:37:06 AM UTC+12, kirk.stant wrote:
> PS: Who had his first landout of the season yesterday - nice
> smooth field 20 miles from home. When the passerby's asked
> "what happened, wind quit?" (yes they really do ask that)

Where do you think this strange idea and question comes from?

The question that almost everyone asks me, that I also can't figure where they get the idea from, is: "How do you land without an engine?"

On questioning, people seem to mean "precision land", to which the answer is of course "air brakes".

[[email protected]]

When the wind quits your kite crashes. Only thing most people have flown. Besides they are right, a thermal is just vertical wind...

[Bill T]

Thanks Tony, I missed the Convention, I'll look them up.
BillT

[Paul Agnew]

I shared the initial report with the hopes that someone at CC would share more details. Sorry to get everyone's hopes up for a honest discussion of what happened.

[Bill T]

They did, tow landed downwind, lost control, hit glider. Glider totaled. Tow facing repairs and engine teardown inspection.

BillT