FAA sticks to its guns on not allowing solo glider flight for out ofcurrency power pilots

[[email protected]]

The FAA is sticking to its guns in holding that a rated power pilot who is out of currency in his power rating cannot solo in a glider when the transition pilot is not current (no current flight review) in his other rating. The most recent legal opinion is dated today, April 27, and addressed to Chris Bennett of the Southern California Soaring Academy, who requested the clarification. I have a copy of the legal opinion, but can't figure out how to attach it to this post. Send me an email if you want a copy.

The FAA realizes their ruling makes no logical sense, but they feel the ruling is compelled by the language of the FAR. They have suggested to the rule making branch of the FAA that the FAR be amended but that won't happen overnight.

In the meantime, I understand that there may be a work-a-round in the form of the FAA Wings program if the power pilot doesn't want to either get current or surrender his power rating and get a new student certificate. I'm not an expert on it, but I think that it is possible for a rated pilot to do an FAA Wings program in lieu of a flight review with an instructor. Worth checking out. I think I saw something from Cindy Brickner or someone else on the topic a few months ago when this issue first raised its ugly head.

Not sure what there is for SSA to do at this point other than to disseminate the info and advise all clubs, operators and instructors to follow the ruling. I'm sure SSA's volunteer liaisons with the FAA will encourage a prompt amendment to the FARs, but other than that I think we just have to suck it up and comply.

Best,

Phil Umphres,
SSA Treasurer

[Bill T]

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 4:01:47 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> The FAA is sticking to its guns in holding that a rated power pilot who is out of currency in his power rating cannot solo in a glider when the transition pilot is not current (no current flight review) in his other rating. The most recent legal opinion is dated today, April 27, and addressed to Chris Bennett of the Southern California Soaring Academy, who requested the clarification. I have a copy of the legal opinion, but can't figure out how to attach it to this post. Send me an email if you want a copy.
>
> The FAA realizes their ruling makes no logical sense, but they feel the ruling is compelled by the language of the FAR. They have suggested to the rule making branch of the FAA that the FAR be amended but that won't happen overnight.
>
> In the meantime, I understand that there may be a work-a-round in the form of the FAA Wings program if the power pilot doesn't want to either get current or surrender his power rating and get a new student certificate. I'm not an expert on it, but I think that it is possible for a rated pilot to do an FAA Wings program in lieu of a flight review with an instructor. Worth checking out. I think I saw something from Cindy Brickner or someone else on the topic a few months ago when this issue first raised its ugly head.
>
> Not sure what there is for SSA to do at this point other than to disseminate the info and advise all clubs, operators and instructors to follow the ruling. I'm sure SSA's volunteer liaisons with the FAA will encourage a prompt amendment to the FARs, but other than that I think we just have to suck it up and comply.
>
> Best,
>
> Phil Umphres,
> SSA Treasurer

AC 61-91J outlines the requirements of the WINGS program.
Yes the WINGS program does work for Flight Review Credit.

To complete the Wings Program for the Flight Review Credit even at the Basic Level you must complete 3 academic modules and 3 FLIGHT MODULES with an instructor within the last 12 months. Then you have Flight Review Credit for 24 months starting with the completion date of your first event.

So you still need to fly, with an instructor that can certify in the WINGS online program, that the flight modules have been completed and proficient to Practical Test Standards for the rating held.

There is no easy "work around".

There has been a lot of comments on Rec.Aviation.Soaring about getting a "Sport Pilot Glider" rating with two CFI sign off on an FAA form 8710-11.

Yes you can do that at the Sport Pilot level, but the Sport Pilot would still be an "add-on" rating, and it still requires 2 hours of solo and 5 solo flights, which you cannot do as an "add-on" without a current flight review..

Bill Tisdale
LVVSA, CFI-G
FAA Safety Team (FAASTeam) Lead

[N97MT]

>
> So you still need to fly, with an instructor that can certify in the WINGS online program, that the flight modules have been completed and proficient to Practical Test Standards for the rating held.
>

Bill, can you please refer me to which regulation(s) and/or guidance(s) require the pilot to be currently rated in a Glider if they want to complete the Wings Phase in a Glider? 61.56(e) does not specify a requirement to hold any previous rating.

AC 61.91J also does not specify that the pilot must hold a particular category/class rating. Only that they hold an FAA Pilot Certificate and hold any required Medical current. Even Student Pilot certificate holders qualify for the program. By definition Student Pilots are not yet rated.

The FAASafety.gov website also does not specifically state that the pilot must be currently rated in any specific category. It seems to imply that completing a Wings Phase can be a part of a future rating.

Yes the add-on student still would need to fly with a CFI-G. I would propose completing the Wings Phase as a part of the add-on rating training before the sign off for solo. The Student will most certainly be ready for solo by that time.

Am I missing something?

[Bill T]

Wings credit for a flight review. You can't get a "flight review" in an aircraft you are not rated in.
If you could, then a non glider rated pilot could get his flight review 61.56 sign off in a glider and not have to do it the long "Wings" way.
Wings requires 3 ground training modules and 3 hrs of flying.
A "simple" flight review is 1hr ground and 1hr in the air.

61.56(c)(1) says it is in an aircraft you are rated in.

BillT

[N97MT]

>
> 61.56(c)(1) says it is in an aircraft you are rated in.
>

Bill, the entire 61.56(c) is excepted by 61.56(e). I see the text before 61.56(c)(1) which reads:

"(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section,"...etc.

61.56(e) refers back to (c) but only in reference to the 24 month period. 61.56(e) specifically negates any requirement for any flight review:

"(e) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, satisfactorily accomplished one or more phases of an FAA-sponsored pilot proficiency award program need not accomplish the flight review required by this section."

There is no requirement for a flight review in this case, let alone with any rating. At least as it is stated in 61.56.

[Bill T]

Completing the flight portion of a wings program requires 3 modules, completing maneuvers to PTS standards.
Completing a wings program for flight review credit allows you to act as PIC in aircraft you are rated.

"Pilots with multiple ratings select the category and class of aircraft in which they wish to recieve training and demonstrate their flight proficiency."
AC 61-91J para 5.c.3

Students can participate in Wings programs, but they do not require a FR, so credits are not applied to FR printed by faasaftey.gov web site.

BillT

[N97MT]

> Completing a wings program for flight review credit allows you to act as PIC in aircraft you are rated.
>
> "Pilots with multiple ratings select the category and class of aircraft in which they wish to recieve training and demonstrate their flight proficiency."
> AC 61-91J para 5.c.3
>

Completing a Wings Program in lieu of a flight review allows you to act as PIC in aircraft you are rated. It completed eliminates any flight review requirement. The Wings Program resets the flight review date when the Wings Phase is completed.

I don't know Bill. I read that AC 61-91J paragraph too but I cannot see that it says I have to have any specific rating to select. It says "in which they wish" no "in which they are rated".

I just now signed up to FAASafety.gov for the first time. In my profile it noted my Private ASEL, but not my Commercial Glider nor Flight Instructor.

So I changed my profile to Private ASES (Seaplane) which I do not have. It then presented me with modules to complete including 3 flight modules for Seaplane. At least, before starting, the Wings Program is not preventing me from completing the Basic Wings Phase at this point. In a Seaplane. For which I am not rated.

So, after I (hypothetically) complete these, when, where and by whom am I stopped from getting credit for completing a Basic Wings Phase in the Seaplane (and by definition, become Flight Review current)?

[[email protected]]

Bill T - I disagree with your interpretation as to the hourly requirements to obtain Sport Pilot priveledges to operate a different catagory or class

Please go to the link and read the guidance to flight instructors.

Here is my reference as to why I think this is legal

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/sport_pilot/media/proficiency_check.pdf

Specifically -


III. RECORD OF PILOT TIME.
There is no minimum pilot experience required by for the proficiency check. Enter only the pilot time that is acquired in an N-numbered aircraft. DO NOT ENTER TIME THAT IS ACQUIRED IN AN ULTRA LIGHT VEHICLE. If decimal points are used, be sure they are legible. You should fill in the blocks that apply and ignore the blocks that do no

[Terry Pitts]

Light sport add-on to an existing certificate has no requirement for solo flight time. Train to proficiency. Check proficiency. 8710-11 in the mail. Logbook entry. Assuming flight review currency, the LS-G pilot can now take a passenger up without ever having flown a glider solo.

[N97MT]

I think it is best to summarize possible avenues for Flight Review alternatives here and what has been proposed so far. These should be further questioned through local DPEs and FSDOs, in my opinion. Of course, the questions could also be posed for legal interpretations by the FAA lawyers.

The scenario is that a Sport, Private, Commercial, or ATP pilot certificate holder is out of Flight Review currency in a Category other than Glider. A Recreational certificate does not include a Glider Category. The pilot is not rated in a Glider. He can not or will not complete a Flight Review in an aircraft for which he is rated. Thus he can not act as PIC, and fly solo or with passengers, in a Glider, because at a minimum he is not Flight Review current.

Two alternatives discussed so far:

(1) Complete a Phase of the Wings Program in the Glider. It seems you do not need to be rated in a Glider to do this path. You could then at least solo in the Glider and continue training for the add-on.

(2) Complete a Sport Pilot Proficiency Check for the Sport Pilot Glider add on. It seems there is no hourly training or solo requirements to do this path. Then perform a Flight Review in the Glider since you are now rated in the Glider. You could then start down the training path (ie solo glider flights and additional training) to upgrade your Glider rating to the higher level pilot certificate if you have one.

On the other hand, the above assumptions may not pan out and I am not as experienced as Bill to claim with certainty otherwise. And, the proposed alternatives may involve more time and expense than doing the Flight Review in the first place, as Bill has mentioned.

So again, we should get confirmation from the local DPEs, FSDOs and FAA legal interpretations before starting down the path of any alternatives.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 9:15:31 AM UTC-5, N97MT wrote:
> I think it is best to summarize possible avenues for Flight Review alternatives here and what has been proposed so far. These should be further questioned through local DPEs and FSDOs, in my opinion. Of course, the questions could also be posed for legal interpretations by the FAA lawyers.
>
> The scenario is that a Sport, Private, Commercial, or ATP pilot certificate holder is out of Flight Review currency in a Category other than Glider. A Recreational certificate does not include a Glider Category. The pilot is not rated in a Glider. He can not or will not complete a Flight Review in an aircraft for which he is rated. Thus he can not act as PIC, and fly solo or with passengers, in a Glider, because at a minimum he is not Flight Review current.
>
> Two alternatives discussed so far:
>
> (1) Complete a Phase of the Wings Program in the Glider. It seems you do not need to be rated in a Glider to do this path. You could then at least solo in the Glider and continue training for the add-on.
>
> (2) Complete a Sport Pilot Proficiency Check for the Sport Pilot Glider add on. It seems there is no hourly training or solo requirements to do this path. Then perform a Flight Review in the Glider since you are now rated in the Glider. You could then start down the training path (ie solo glider flights and additional training) to upgrade your Glider rating to the higher level pilot certificate if you have one.
>
> On the other hand, the above assumptions may not pan out and I am not as experienced as Bill to claim with certainty otherwise. And, the proposed alternatives may involve more time and expense than doing the Flight Review in the first place, as Bill has mentioned.
>
> So again, we should get confirmation from the local DPEs, FSDOs and FAA legal interpretations before starting down the path of any alternatives.

I would agree that a legal interpretation from the FAA is the way to get definitive answers. I have a great deal of respect for the FAAST team members, but I have emails from two of them that contradict Bill's interpretation on the issue.

I would think that the SSA might be able to influence a "Fast Track" legal opinion on the WINGS and Sport Pilot questions. Considering that the SSA has been in contact with the FAA, and the FAA seems to realize that, although the interpretation is correct, it is not the intended consequence and peanalizes transition pilots.

[[email protected]]

> I would think that the SSA might be able to influence a "Fast Track" legal opinion on the WINGS and Sport Pilot questions. Considering that the SSA has been in contact with the FAA, and the FAA seems to realize that, although the interpretation is correct, it is not the intended consequence and peanalizes transition pilots.

Asking for clarification is what caused the problem in the first place. At the moment it is what examiners will accept as the FAA isn't(yet) tracking flight reviews.
There is a third option, which is surrender current certificate. Seems extreme but if the transition pilot is rated only in helicopters or only in heavy multis and isn't going back it might make sense.

[Daryl Hickman]

This happened to a gentleman at our club a few weeks back. Zero interest in flying powered aircraft again. I simply put him in my Cub, did an hour and signed off a flight review. He soloed the glider. A PITA for sure, but it meets the burdensome requirements until they are (hopefully) removed.

Daryl

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 6:01:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> The FAA is sticking to its guns in holding that a rated power pilot who is out of currency in his power rating cannot solo in a glider when the transition pilot is not current (no current flight review) in his other rating. The most recent legal opinion is dated today, April 27, and addressed to Chris Bennett of the Southern California Soaring Academy, who requested the clarification. I have a copy of the legal opinion, but can't figure out how to attach it to this post. Send me an email if you want a copy.
>
> The FAA realizes their ruling makes no logical sense, but they feel the ruling is compelled by the language of the FAR. They have suggested to the rule making branch of the FAA that the FAR be amended but that won't happen overnight.
>
> In the meantime, I understand that there may be a work-a-round in the form of the FAA Wings program if the power pilot doesn't want to either get current or surrender his power rating and get a new student certificate. I'm not an expert on it, but I think that it is possible for a rated pilot to do an FAA Wings program in lieu of a flight review with an instructor. Worth checking out. I think I saw something from Cindy Brickner or someone else on the topic a few months ago when this issue first raised its ugly head.
>
> Not sure what there is for SSA to do at this point other than to disseminate the info and advise all clubs, operators and instructors to follow the ruling. I'm sure SSA's volunteer liaisons with the FAA will encourage a prompt amendment to the FARs, but other than that I think we just have to suck it up and comply.
>
> Best,
>
> Phil Umphres,
> SSA Treasurer

Several people with whom I have spoken think the best route of the three available options (flight review, WINGS course, surrender license for non-current rating) may be to just go get a flight review in the category of aircraft in which you hold the non-current power license. You can take a flight review without a current medical (I am told) as long as you are not the PIC. Find a friendly instructor, get a flight review sign off and then go fly gliders!

Phil Umphres

[[email protected]]

Phil - that works, unless you are only rated in say Helicopters, which would be cost prohibitive in the first place not to mention finding a "friendly" CFI that was willing to do such a thing.

[Brian[_1_]]

So Did I miss where it was explained why a commercial certificate, contains all lessor certificates (i.e. You can excercise private, or sport pilot privileges) except a Student Certificate?

Brian

[[email protected]]

Brian,In 2014 the FAA wrote in the Beard Letter "because this exception [not needing a flight review for solo] applies to student pilots, a pilot who holds a higher level certificate and has an endorsement for solo flight under 61.31(d) must comply with the flight review requirements in 61.56 before acting as pilot in command of any aircraft."

(Link to letter: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2015/beard%20-%20(2015)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf)

[Brian[_1_]]

Bill, I understand the flight review problem with FAR 61.31, what I don't under stand is why a pilot can't be soloed under FAR 61.87 using the student pilot privedges that should be included with their existing certificate (like sport and private pilot privileges, if they have a commercial certificate).

Brian

[Bill T]

If by Bill, you mean me?

It is my understanding that The FAA no longer considers a pilot with a certificate, a student. They are a rated pilot in search of additional ratings.
Hence they do not require a written test going from airplane to glider. As shown in other posts on RAS, the way to be considered a student is to turn in all your certificates and start from scratch, a student, complete with written tests and student limitations,

BillT

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 12:24:29 AM UTC-4, Bill T wrote:

> It is my understanding that The FAA no longer considers a pilot with a certificate, a student. They are a rated pilot in search of additional ratings.
> Hence they do not require a written test going from airplane to glider. As shown in other posts on RAS, the way to be considered a student is to turn in all your certificates and start from scratch, a student, complete with written tests and student limitations,

This appears to work differently for PPL-Power and PPL-Glider.

In March 2016, I asked the Portland ME FSDO whether my PPL-Glider certificate would allow me to solo a power plane (assuming current medical and CFI endorsement). They told me (in writing) that I needed to obtain a valid Student Pilot license.

Has anyone obtained a different opinion from a different FSDO?

I'm hoping that IACRA is programmed correctly, and lets me obtain a student pilot certificate, even though I already hold a PPL-Glider.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 9:05:28 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 12:24:29 AM UTC-4, Bill T wrote:
>
> > It is my understanding that The FAA no longer considers a pilot with a certificate, a student. They are a rated pilot in search of additional ratings.
> > Hence they do not require a written test going from airplane to glider. As shown in other posts on RAS, the way to be considered a student is to turn in all your certificates and start from scratch, a student, complete with written tests and student limitations,
>
> This appears to work differently for PPL-Power and PPL-Glider.
>
> In March 2016, I asked the Portland ME FSDO whether my PPL-Glider certificate would allow me to solo a power plane (assuming current medical and CFI endorsement). They told me (in writing) that I needed to obtain a valid Student Pilot license.
>
> Has anyone obtained a different opinion from a different FSDO?
>
> I'm hoping that IACRA is programmed correctly, and lets me obtain a student pilot certificate, even though I already hold a PPL-Glider.

Used to be going from glider to airplane you'd have to take the airplane written(written not required airplane->glider) but you did not need a student pilots license. Inline with the FR issue it should be impossible to issue you a student license as you are a Private Pilot (with category of Glider.) Either the FSDO is wrong or the FAA have made policy changes. Keep us informed of how it plays out.

[N97MT]

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 11:24:29 PM UTC-5, Bill T wrote:
> If by Bill, you mean me?
>
> It is my understanding that The FAA no longer considers a pilot with a certificate, a student. They are a rated pilot in search of additional ratings.
> Hence they do not require a written test going from airplane to glider. As shown in other posts on RAS, the way to be considered a student is to turn in all your certificates and start from scratch, a student, complete with written tests and student limitations,
>
> BillT

Thinking this even further through, could we surmise that anywhere Part 61 says "Student Pilot" means "someone holding a Student Pilot certificate"? So wherever that comes up, would that paragraph even apply to someone with any other pilot certificate level?

So, all of the limitations concerning cross-country, night flying, and Class B airspace flying, etc. would not apply to the add-on "trainee" holding Private or higher pilot certificates once the CFI signs him off to solo in the glider. In this respect, there would be no such additional training or additional endorsements required. Further, 61.31(d)(2) says nothing about putting any limitations on the solo endorsement.

Would also mean, the Glider-rated pilot would have no restrictions getting a solo endorsement to fly in the Airplane category. All they need is the training required for that Category (and Class) applicable to their pilot certificate level.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 9:05:28 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 12:24:29 AM UTC-4, Bill T wrote:
>
> > It is my understanding that The FAA no longer considers a pilot with a certificate, a student. They are a rated pilot in search of additional ratings.
> > Hence they do not require a written test going from airplane to glider. As shown in other posts on RAS, the way to be considered a student is to turn in all your certificates and start from scratch, a student, complete with written tests and student limitations,
>
> This appears to work differently for PPL-Power and PPL-Glider.
>
> In March 2016, I asked the Portland ME FSDO whether my PPL-Glider certificate would allow me to solo a power plane (assuming current medical and CFI endorsement). They told me (in writing) that I needed to obtain a valid Student Pilot license.
>
> Has anyone obtained a different opinion from a different FSDO?
>
> I'm hoping that IACRA is programmed correctly, and lets me obtain a student pilot certificate, even though I already hold a PPL-Glider.

I believe they are incorrect.
You are a private pilot and no longer act as a student, even though you may be subject to the training and solo constraints associated with the airplane instruction.
UH

[[email protected]]

On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 2:24:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 9:05:28 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 12:24:29 AM UTC-4, Bill T wrote:
> >
> > > It is my understanding that The FAA no longer considers a pilot with a certificate, a student. They are a rated pilot in search of additional ratings.
> > > Hence they do not require a written test going from airplane to glider. As shown in other posts on RAS, the way to be considered a student is to turn in all your certificates and start from scratch, a student, complete with written tests and student limitations,
> >
> > This appears to work differently for PPL-Power and PPL-Glider.
> >
> > In March 2016, I asked the Portland ME FSDO whether my PPL-Glider certificate would allow me to solo a power plane (assuming current medical and CFI endorsement). They told me (in writing) that I needed to obtain a valid Student Pilot license.
> >
> > Has anyone obtained a different opinion from a different FSDO?
> >
> > I'm hoping that IACRA is programmed correctly, and lets me obtain a student pilot certificate, even though I already hold a PPL-Glider.
>
> I believe they are incorrect.
> You are a private pilot and no longer act as a student, even though you may be subject to the training and solo constraints associated with the airplane instruction.
> UH

Does that mean if he is not current in gliders he can not solo an airplane?

[[email protected]]

On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 1:52:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 2:24:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 9:05:28 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 12:24:29 AM UTC-4, Bill T wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is my understanding that The FAA no longer considers a pilot with a certificate, a student. They are a rated pilot in search of additional ratings.
> > > > Hence they do not require a written test going from airplane to glider. As shown in other posts on RAS, the way to be considered a student is to turn in all your certificates and start from scratch, a student, complete with written tests and student limitations,
> > >
> > > This appears to work differently for PPL-Power and PPL-Glider.
> > >
> > > In March 2016, I asked the Portland ME FSDO whether my PPL-Glider certificate would allow me to solo a power plane (assuming current medical and CFI endorsement). They told me (in writing) that I needed to obtain a valid Student Pilot license.
> > >
> > > Has anyone obtained a different opinion from a different FSDO?
> > >
> > > I'm hoping that IACRA is programmed correctly, and lets me obtain a student pilot certificate, even though I already hold a PPL-Glider.
> >
> > I believe they are incorrect.
> > You are a private pilot and no longer act as a student, even though you may be subject to the training and solo constraints associated with the airplane instruction.
> > UH
>
> Does that mean if he is not current in gliders he can not solo an airplane?

My take is that based on the Beard interpretation, he would have to have a flight review in the aircraft he is rated in for a solo endorsement in SEA to be valid

[[email protected]]

This is all a basket of bull. The SSA and the EAA need to flex their combined muscles and straighten this horse pucky out. Somewhere along the line we forgot that these idiot FAA bureocrates are here to serve us not the other way around.
Dan

[[email protected]]

It is my understanding that the FAA has agreed that it needs to be corrected, but the interpretation of the regulations, as they as written, is correct. In order to fix it, the FAA has to go through the rule making procedure as it does with any regulatory change, and that takes time. I know for a fact that the SSA is deeply involved and are working with the FAA. As with anything involving the government, patience is a virtue.

Many thanks to Ken Sorenson and the entire SSA team for their involvement.

[N97MT]

On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 8:05:28 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 12:24:29 AM UTC-4, Bill T wrote:
>
> > It is my understanding that The FAA no longer considers a pilot with a certificate, a student. They are a rated pilot in search of additional ratings.
> > Hence they do not require a written test going from airplane to glider. As shown in other posts on RAS, the way to be considered a student is to turn in all your certificates and start from scratch, a student, complete with written tests and student limitations,
>
> This appears to work differently for PPL-Power and PPL-Glider.
>
> In March 2016, I asked the Portland ME FSDO whether my PPL-Glider certificate would allow me to solo a power plane (assuming current medical and CFI endorsement). They told me (in writing) that I needed to obtain a valid Student Pilot license.
>
> Has anyone obtained a different opinion from a different FSDO?
>
> I'm hoping that IACRA is programmed correctly, and lets me obtain a student pilot certificate, even though I already hold a PPL-Glider.

Couple of points.

(1) I don't think you can get a Student Pilot certificate unless you surrender in your current FAA-issued pilot certificate to the FAA. If you don't have an FAA-issued pilot certificate you can get a Student Pilot certificate..

(2) Part 61 says nothing special about getting the Airplane Category as an additional rating or requirements for added rating solo if you already are rated in Glider category.

(3) The FAA Designated Pilot Examiner's handbook has no guidance for DPEs in this regard either, except you would need to pass the Airplane Knowledge Test to qualify for the Airplane Practical Test and have night flight training.

(4) The Practical Test Standards for Private Pilot Airplane specifically calls out the Private Pilot Glider rating as one previously held, and allows you to skip tasks that are the same for both Airplane and Glider and were already covered when you took the Glider Practical Test.

It sounds to me like this FSDO does not know what they are talking about.

[Jim Lewis[_2_]]

On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 6:05:28 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 12:24:29 AM UTC-4, Bill T wrote:
>
> > It is my understanding that The FAA no longer considers a pilot with a certificate, a student. They are a rated pilot in search of additional ratings.
> > Hence they do not require a written test going from airplane to glider. As shown in other posts on RAS, the way to be considered a student is to turn in all your certificates and start from scratch, a student, complete with written tests and student limitations,
>
> This appears to work differently for PPL-Power and PPL-Glider.
>
> In March 2016, I asked the Portland ME FSDO whether my PPL-Glider certificate would allow me to solo a power plane (assuming current medical and CFI endorsement). They told me (in writing) that I needed to obtain a valid Student Pilot license.
>
> Has anyone obtained a different opinion from a different FSDO?
>
> I'm hoping that IACRA is programmed correctly, and lets me obtain a student pilot certificate, even though I already hold a PPL-Glider.

I'm guessing this will not happen. My understanding is you cannot be a student pilot - get a student pilot certificate - once you are a certificated pilot. On the other hand, the FAR's confuse me most of the time.

[Bill T]

As everyone has responded , ME FSDO did not do his research.

With a PP Glider certificate, you can act as PIC for solo operations in an airplane with the 61.31 endorsement.
Regardless what the ME FSDO may say, OKC will not issue two active pilot certificates to the same pilot.
OKC will not issue a new student certificate without the PP glider certificate being surrendered.

I caution my glider students, now rated glider pilots about this when they move on to get their airplane rating. I even agree to meet with their airplane instructor to review if they like. Not many airplane CFIs are used to rated pilots coming for private pilot airplane training.

BillT

[Brian[_1_]]

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 10:24:29 PM UTC-6, Bill T wrote:
> If by Bill, you mean me?
>
> It is my understanding that The FAA no longer considers a pilot with a certificate, a student. They are a rated pilot in search of additional ratings.
> Hence they do not require a written test going from airplane to glider. As shown in other posts on RAS, the way to be considered a student is to turn in all your certificates and start from scratch, a student, complete with written tests and student limitations,
>
> BillT

Thank BillT, but I have yet to see any documentation that supports this "Understanding"

The issue of course is that a rated pilot without a current flight review can not solo under FAR 61.31. But all they need is the ability to Solo using Student pilot privileges to complete the requirements to take a check ride..

The FAA could fix this very easily with a letter that states (or revokes previous understandings) that Student pilot privileges are included with any higher certificate. Then there is no need for a pilot to use FAR 61.31 to solo, since they can complete their solo requirement under FAR 61.87 instead..

Brian

[[email protected]]

Brian,

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2015/newman%20-%20(2015)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

FAA is pretty clear

[Brian[_1_]]

On Tuesday, May 3, 2016 at 8:00:51 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Brian,
>
> http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2015/newman%20-%20(2015)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf
>
> FAA is pretty clear

Ok, my mistake, I had already admitted that I hadn't fully read the Beard Letter, I should have. It does pretty clearly state that they "Understand" once you have a higher rating, one no longer has student privileges. This is interesting, since this it not the case for other ratings certificates, like sport Pilot or private pilot privileges, if one has a commercial certificate.

Will be interesting to see how the FAA fixes this problem.

Brian

[[email protected]]

Call your local FSDO. Mine said just keep doing what you have been doing for past 40 years.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Great FSDO.........

[Walt Connelly]

Call your local FSDO. Mine said just keep doing what you have been doing for past 40 years.

I'd get that in writing........

Walt

[Bill T]

Until the smart DPE starts looking in the applicants log book for the last Flight Review endorsement.
Soon Flight Review endorsements may need to be filed electronically through IACRA, then the computer will check for current FR when adding a rating.
No getting around that.

BillT