Drag Chute Deployed ?

[JJ Sinclair]

NTSB is reporting a fatal accident where a Salto was seen with drag chute
deployed on July 19, 2003. Anyone have more details on this accident?
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/Month.asp
JJ Sinclair

[Al]

Also how about this nonfatal..
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20030815X01341&key=1


Al


"JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
> NTSB is reporting a fatal accident where a Salto was seen with drag chute
> deployed on July 19, 2003. Anyone have more details on this accident?
> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/Month.asp
> JJ Sinclair

[JJ Sinclair]

Todd wrote>>>>>>>>>>>>..>There's no
>indication that I know of that the drag chute played any
>part.

I would say the drag chute did play a part in this accident. The question I
would ask is; Did the pilot deploy the chute and if so, why? Or did the chute
deploy without the pilot knowing it? Trying to select an off-field landing spot
with an uncommanded drag chute deployed could have given the pilot a
distraction that he didn't need at a critical time.


JJ Sinclair

[Shawn Curry]

Al wrote:

> Also how about this nonfatal..
> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20030815X01341&key=1
>
>
> Al

My info is second hand, so I won't comment on the details. I will say
that the terrain around the reservoir is steep, rocky, and heavily
wooded. Storms in this area build and intensify very fast. Most of us
have had our run-ins with them. Unfortunately, bad outcome for a nice
glider, but good choice for the pilot IMHO.
I'm glad he's O.K. Nice guy and a good instructor.

Shawn

[MikeYankee]

I was not at Wurtsboro that day but have flown there almost 20 years and knew
the pilot in question. He was conscientious but lacked cross-country
experience. He was attempting to fly "local" triangles between Wurtsboro,
Monticello and Ellenville -- only a 35-mile course, but fully two-thirds over
unlandable terrain.

One of the difficulties in flying at Wurtsboro is that in the NW quadrant,
where conditions are often best, one has to go about 10 miles (over rising
terrain) before a decent choice of fields opens up.

In my estimation, his sad mistake was likely to recognize, far too late, that
he was low and needed a place to land. The terrain beneath him was ~800 ft
higher than Wurtsboro's field elevation, and with very poor field selection.
Actually there are a couple of so-so fields within reach, but they may not have
been obvious or even visible from his [presumed] low height.

Improving XC experience, situational awareness and possibly local knowledge are
the keys to preventing similar accidents. I don't think the drag chute was
causative, but that's just my opinion.





Mike Yankee

(Address is munged to thwart spammers.
To reply, delete everything after "com".)

[JJ Sinclair]

Thanks for your thoughts on this accident, Mike. It is always tragic when life
is lost because of inexperience. I guess the lesson that we can learn from this
is; If there is nothing but trees below you, then *put it in the trees* and
don't try to avoid them. I do think it is important for us to analyze our
accidents in a forum like RAS, because if we don't do it, nobody will. Please
tell us what you think caused an accident and what could have prevented it.
That's the only way to get the word out and possibly prevent a similar
accident.
JJ Sinclair

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

I was present (with a great many other glider pilots) last year at a
competition when an ASW27 crashed into trees final gliding to the airfield.
There was not quite enough energy, and he hit the top of a tall tree on the
boundary, broke through this to finish in a small tree a few yards further
on. The fuselage finished just clear of the ground with the wings badly
damaged. The pilot was I think completely uninjured, certainly he walked
away. It would have been much worse but for that small tree.

This year at that airfield they set the finish line so as to avoid finishing
over the trees.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

> "JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Thanks for your thoughts on this accident, Mike. It is always tragic
> when life is lost because of inexperience.
>
> I guess the lesson that we can learn from this is; If there is nothing but
> trees below you, then *put it in the trees* and don't try to avoid them.
>
> I do think it is important for us to analyze our accidents in a forum like
> RAS, because if we don't do it, nobody will. Please tell us what you
> think caused an accident and what could have prevented it. That's the
> only way to get the word out and possibly prevent a similar accident.
>
> JJ Sinclair.

[RamyYanetz]

>Please
>tell us what you think caused an accident and what could have prevented it.
>That's the only way to get the word out and possibly prevent a similar
>accident.
>JJ Sinclair

I don't know if the glider in question had a flight recorder, but many do, and
many mysterious accidents could have been fully analyzed if flight recorder
manufactures would have build them in a way that the memory can survive a
crash.
Unfortunately in most cases the flight log is lost simply as a result of the
memory battery comming loose. I heard of quiet a few such cases.
A recent mysterious accident during a contest could have been potentially
resolved if the flight log was available.

Any comments from flight recorder manufactures?

Ramy (TG)

[Mike Borgelt]

On 28 Aug 2003 22:40:09 GMT, (RamyYanetz) wrote:

>>Please
>>tell us what you think caused an accident and what could have prevented it.
>>That's the only way to get the word out and possibly prevent a similar
>>accident.
>>JJ Sinclair
>
>I don't know if the glider in question had a flight recorder, but many do, and
>many mysterious accidents could have been fully analyzed if flight recorder
>manufactures would have build them in a way that the memory can survive a
>crash.
>Unfortunately in most cases the flight log is lost simply as a result of the
>memory battery comming loose. I heard of quiet a few such cases.
>A recent mysterious accident during a contest could have been potentially
>resolved if the flight log was available.
>
>Any comments from flight recorder manufactures?
>
>Ramy (TG)


The Volkslogger uses non volatile Flash memory for the flight record
so it should be possible to always get the record.

Mike Borgelt

[MikeYankee]

>the outlanding on water is far more common...

Good point. Getting back to the Wurtsboro Salto accident, the pilot might
indeed have tried landing in a lake if the option occurred to him (there was
probably a lake within reach). In the late 1980's an HP-14 landed safely and
without damage in one of them.

If you have to land in the water, put the landing gear down to keep the nose
from plowing too deeply and too steeply under the water.


Mike Yankee

(Address is munged to thwart spammers.
To reply, delete everything after "com".)

[Ian Forbes]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:14:38 +0000, MikeYankee wrote:

> If you have to land in the water, put the landing gear down to keep the
> nose from plowing too deeply and too steeply under the water.

Does anybody know if the Ventus pilot in the recent incident (
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20030815X01341&key=1 ) landed
wheel up or down?

Thanks

Ian

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Ian Forbes" > wrote in message
. za...
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:14:38 +0000, MikeYankee wrote:
>
> > If you have to land in the water, put the landing gear down to keep the
> > nose from plowing too deeply and too steeply under the water.
>
> Does anybody know if the Ventus pilot in the recent incident (
> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20030815X01341&key=1 ) landed
> wheel up or down?
>
> Thanks
>
> Ian
>
Heard it was wheel down. From the damage, would appear not to have been
minimum energy. Gross reservoir is 7950MSL though. If downwind
(conventional wisdom), touch down would have been pretty fast.

Frank Whiteley

[Shawn Curry]

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

> "Ian Forbes" > wrote in message
> . za...
>
>>On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:14:38 +0000, MikeYankee wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If you have to land in the water, put the landing gear down to keep the
>>>nose from plowing too deeply and too steeply under the water.
>>
>>Does anybody know if the Ventus pilot in the recent incident (
>>http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20030815X01341&key=1 ) landed
>>wheel up or down?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Ian
>>
>
> Heard it was wheel down. From the damage, would appear not to have been
> minimum energy. Gross reservoir is 7950MSL though. If downwind
> (conventional wisdom), touch down would have been pretty fast.
>
> Frank Whiteley
>
>
Wheel down, according to my second hand source (whom I believe was part
of the crew that picked up/fished out the pieces). Also, I was told the
tail touched first, causing the nose to hit hard enough to submerge,
resulting in the flip. Again second hand.

Shawn

[Chris]

> I guess the lesson that we can learn from this is;
> If there is nothing but trees below you, then *put it in the
trees*
> and don't try to avoid them.

May be a coincidence but we had two crashes this season, both
into the trees and both pilots survived with virtually no injury.
One had a cut on his head from the canopy and the other one just
bruises. The gliders, a Pegase and a DG-300 were totally damaged.

So obviously crashing into trees can give you an *edge* in such a
situation.

Christian